Practicality of dragon stones

[smash-brethren]

Sorry if there's already a thread for this but how practical would dragonstones be for a conquest hard/classic playthrough from what I've seen dragonstones provide decent bulk so I was thinking about making my MU magic/defense based but would it be more practical to use just stick with regular weapons and focus on a speed based build?

[Rapier]

Dragonstones can be abused a lot with Jakob/Felicia's support skill (that lowers damage by 2 or 3 points, I don't recall, for female/male characters in 1-2 squares), Belka's Rally (if you do promote her into a wyvern lord later on) and Elise's support skills (-3 to closest unit, -2 to male characters in 1-2 squares from her iirc). The actual problem is making the damage worth enough for the enemy to attack Kamui... In short, you'll be taking 2 or 3 damage, and you'll need to be careful to not disencourage the enemy from attacking Kamui.

I'd recommend getting HP as an asset since def isn't even an issue with dragonstone and support skill abuse, but I'm not one of the pro players around here. Even if you take 2 or 3 damage with dragonstone + support skill abuse, you need to be careful should the enemies pile on Kamui, so it's better to give more HP (because more def means it is easier to take 0 damage, and enemies won't attack if they know they won't damage).

You just need to be careful enough to get the Dragonstone+ on Chapter 19 (I think it was 19), because the first Dragonstone won't be so useful later on.

Edited February 3, 2016 by Rapier

[Mango Giamatti]

Well, the most practical build would probably be +Str with a speedy sub class like Samurai or Ninja, but that's a different discussion.

Dragonstones are pretty situational tbh. The extra bulk is nice, but the inability to double limits your ability to ORKO. Maybe +Mag with a Felicia pair up would help? IDK. However, the dragonstone's damage in attack stance is great, if that's your thing. And going +HP would make you more bulky than going +Def.

[Georg]

Yeah, dragonstones are more suited for tanking. The lack of doubling cuts its damage potential down pretty hard and by the time you get the good dragonstone you should have plenty of magic to deal damage without specializing anyway. I went with magic as a flaw and never had any issue with magic damage on Nohr hard.

[Espinosa]

Well, the most practical build would probably be +Str with a speedy sub class like Samurai or Ninja, but that's a different discussion.

Dragonstones are pretty situational tbh. The extra bulk is nice, but the inability to double limits your ability to ORKO. Maybe +Mag with a Felicia pair up would help? IDK. However, the dragonstone's damage in attack stance is great, if that's your thing. And going +HP would make you more bulky than going +Def.

+str Samurai MU isn't very practical because of mobility issues and lack of good 1-2 range (magical sword users can at least rely on Levin Swords in Nohr), unless you're planning to buddy/marriage seal into cavalier or something afterwards.

Magically built MU can sometimes OHKO mooks with Dragonstone attacks (with +mag pairup and sometimes without) and it helps to patch up his bulk, but there's only one class where it can be used and you want to reclass out of it after you hit L10 to keep getting good skills, but no 1-2 range and doubling with it (I guess Nowi was nerfed).

Whenever Kanna joins my party, I often have them spam the Dragonstone+ attack for 50-ish attack targeting res as a form of chip damage. Picking a +mag parent for MU makes it even more potent.

[smash-brethren]

I'd recommend getting HP as an asset since def isn't even an issue with dragonstone and support skill abuse, but I'm not one of the pro players around here. Even if you take 2 or 3 damage with dragonstone + support skill abuse, you need to be careful should the enemies pile on Kamui, so it's better to give more HP (because more def means it is easier to take 0 damage, and enemies won't attack if they know they won't damage).

Thanks for the advice! Based on this I'm thinking of probably going with an HP asset and luck flaw (or maybe even speed considering I cant double anyways)

+str Samurai MU isn't very practical because of mobility issues and lack of good 1-2 range (magical sword users can at least rely on Levin Swords in Nohr), unless you're planning to buddy/marriage seal into cavalier or something afterwards.

Magically built MU can sometimes OHKO mooks with Dragonstone attacks (with +mag pairup and sometimes without) and it helps to patch up his bulk, but there's only one class where it can be used and you want to reclass out of it after you hit L10 to keep getting good skills, but no 1-2 range and doubling with it (I guess Nowi was nerfed).

Whenever Kanna joins my party, I often have them spam the Dragonstone+ attack for 50-ish attack targeting res as a form of chip damage. Picking a +mag parent for MU makes it even more potent.

Any idea if dragon kanna is still viable if I plan to marry a physically oriented unit, and should I go with a magic based secondary class?

[Tooru]

+Mag Kamui ORKO almost everything in early chapters. Other units may also ORKO enemies when they choose Kamui for Attack Stance.

After Kamui's promoting, Dragonstone becomes less and less useful. Yato starts to offer Des&Res+2 so Kamui can even tank with Yato/Tomes.

In endgame chapters, dragonstone+ is only useful to fight those who has high Def but low Res. These enemies always have low Spd (so we don't worry about hit rates), Defensive Formation (so "cannot double attack" is not a disadvantage), and we will want to one-shot them for some reasons.

A pair-up hardly helps dragonstone. If you want to tank with it, use Attack Stance.

[Ownagepuffs]

+str Samurai MU isn't very practical because of mobility issues and lack of good 1-2 range (magical sword users can at least rely on Levin Swords in Nohr), unless you're planning to buddy/marriage seal into cavalier or something afterwards.

Did you know Swordmaster has a +5% Mag growth and a class base of 2 Mag? It's pretty good for the Levin Sword build. A +Mag/-Luck Samurai Kamui would have 50/50 Str/Mag growth along with access to things like Astra and Swordfaire and the crit/avo bonus for all Yato Situations. +Mag Levin Swordmaster is basically Swordmaster Linde in New Mystery lol.

[Espinosa]

Yato's not such a spectacular weapon outside of endgame bosskilling honestly. But yeah, any +mag MU will hit for a lot of damage with a magical weapon.

[Ownagepuffs]

It's a very strong weapon. For a good chunk of the game it's basically a 1 range Raijin Katana.

[Duke of Dozel]

Best all around build for Hoshido would be a +MAG/LUK cavalier. It let's early game dragon damage much more cosistent, and once you go paladin, you gain a huge surge of luck growth to compensate, as well as solid growths everywhere else. Statues can fix - STR if it really bugs you that much, and shockstick use is best in your hands.

Back to dragons, I feel it's mainly there as a crutch or for niche builds, such as a +MAG/DefensiveFormation/Pavise and Dark Yato for max tanking. Of course, that's just for people who want a solid choke point while aiming for the generally lower defensive stat of enemies AKA res. It takes investment to make useful, so keep that in mind.

[Shadow Mir]

Dragonstones are powerful, but sadly, their practicality is rather limited...

[Espinosa]

It's a very strong weapon. For a good chunk of the game it's basically a 1 range Raijin Katana.

You can easily beat it in power with a forged steel tbqh. You also don't need to remain in a sword-using class to reap the benefits of its bonuses at any point in the game after they first start being provided. Unless playing for turn counts, nobody forces you to keep on using swords since final battles are perfectly doable without wielding the Yato. No point to restrict your avatar customisation to sword-wielding classes only.

Best all around build for Hoshido would be a +MAG/LUK cavalier. It let's early game dragon damage much more cosistent, and once you go paladin, you gain a huge surge of luck growth to compensate, as well as solid growths everywhere else. Statues can fix - STR if it really bugs you that much, and shockstick use is best in your hands.

15% class luck growth is a "huge surge"? -lck Paladin MU only has a 40% luck growth; 5% more than your fixed Lord promotion. Luck is still not something MU need fret about, but it's still not a huge luck stat if you want more help with dodgetanking or something.

[smash-brethren]

Dragonstones are powerful, but sadly, their practicality is rather limited...

can I ask exactly what about dragonstones make them so impractical, I mean they have massive attack power and bulk and it doesnt seem like nohr has a lot of high res enemies so I figured it'd be broken in attack stance, is doubling with the yato (or any other weapon for that matter) really that important

[Zerosabers]

can I ask exactly what about dragonstones make them so impractical, I mean they have massive attack power and bulk and it doesnt seem like nohr has a lot of high res enemies so I figured it'd be broken in attack stance, is doubling with the yato (or any other weapon for that matter) really that important

Doubling multiplies damage by two and gives more chances to activate skills making 1x10 damage still worse than 2x5 damage.

[Shadow Mir]

can I ask exactly what about dragonstones make them so impractical, I mean they have massive attack power and bulk and it doesnt seem like nohr has a lot of high res enemies so I figured it'd be broken in attack stance, is doubling with the yato (or any other weapon for that matter) really that important

For one, they can't double. Second, they lower your speed, making it easier for enemies to double attack you.

EDIT:

Thanks for the advice! Based on this I'm thinking of probably going with an HP asset and luck flaw (or maybe even speed considering I cant double anyways)

A speed flaw is pretty much the absolute worst thing you can do, and a Luck flaw ain't much better.

Edited February 3, 2016 by Levant Colthearts

[Tooru]

Doubling multiplies damage by two and gives more chances to activate skills making 1x10 damage still worse than 2x5 damage.

But 30 damage is better than 29*2 in player phase when the enemy has 30HP.

Edited February 3, 2016 by Tooru

[smash-brethren]

For one, they can't double. Second, they lower your speed, making it easier for enemies to double attack you.

A speed flaw is pretty much the absolute worst thing you can do, and a Luck flaw ain't much better.

I figured going with a speed flaw was a bad idea but I've never seen luck as a really big deal, doesn't it only slightly affect avoid rates, also the purpose of this build is to tank and kill in attack stance or damage enough for other units on the team to kill but if that just doesnt work in this route then i guess its time to switch up my game plan, also magic asset gives a slight boost to speed growth no?

Edited February 3, 2016 by smash-brethren

[Shadow Mir]

I figured going with a speed flaw was a bad idea but I've never seen luck as a really big deal, doesn't it only slightly affect avoid rates, also the purpose of this build is to tank and kill in attack stance or damage enough for other units on the team to kill but if that just doesnt work in this route then i guess its time to switch up my game plan, also magic asset gives a slight boost to speed growth no?

Luck also lowers the risk of being on the receiving end of a critical hit. And yes, a magic asset boosts speed growth slightly.

[Zerosabers]

But 30 damage is better than 29*2 in player phase when the enemy has 30HP.

Attack stance with the 29x2 makes the enemy just as dead.

[Tooru]

Luck also lowers the risk of being on the receiving end of a critical hit. And yes, a magic asset boosts speed growth slightly.

Dragonstone has 10 crit evade.

[Tooru]

Attack stance with the 29x2 makes the enemy just as dead.

Then you don't benefit from doubling.

->You cannot double.

->Bad weapon!

Edited February 3, 2016 by Tooru

[Shadow Mir]

Dragonstone has 10 crit evade.

We already went over this - I consider it a bad thing when I need to use a weapon that has practicality issues for the sake of getting extra crit evade.

[Zerosabers]

Then you don't benefit from doubling.

->You cannot double.

->Bad weapon!

Yea you don't benefit from doubling in that situation. But it is easily worked around so even in that situation 29x2 = 30x1, not 30x1>29x2. So a weapon capable of never doubling is still worse off than the weapon capable of doubling in general.

[Espinosa]

Nohr does have some resistant enemies, like Elite Ninja, Nine-Tailed Fox, Peg and Priest(-ess) promotions.

Dragonstone is basically a poor man's Nosferatu - tanking without the recovery. Dragonstones are particularly ineffective in the midgame period before you can acquire Dragonstone+.

They're okay if the player favours the sandbagging style of play - choosing wait each turn and slowly (not fast like Nowi/Nosferatu cheese in Awakening at all) but surely destroying the enemy teams without any thought or effort.