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The Lunatic Club [Fates]


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1 hour ago, YouSquiddinMe said:

God bless. I keep trying to tell people to just use Odin but they don't listen to me, it really activates the almonds.

Seriously, use Odin. Yes, Nos is worse than in Awakening, but Nos was on crack in Awakening and now it's just standard overpowered.

 

WARNING: wall of text comparing awakening nos to fates nos, and odin to not-odin

 

While I'm 200% on board the "give odin nos to cruise through most of the game" I find that Nos itself didnt really get much worse from Awakening to Fates. Sure, in a vacuum its power level decreased now that it can no longer double, proc skills, crit, and also gives -20 avoid. But most of the issue with those things came from the game and its exp curve actively encouraging you to funnel into a superunit instead of spreading it out. That combined with the crackhead things enemies can do on lunatic (if you look at raw stats on normal lunatic alone its insane, moreso when you consider Hawkeye, Luna, Counter, Aegis, etc). Sure, it was a more powerful tome... in a game that piled on the unfair hard enough that it NEEDED to be that good to keep up with the damage coming in. On the other hand, Conquest toned the crazy damage output down on top of giving us guard stance to negate 1 in every 2.5 attacks.

Think of what would happen if we had Awakening's Nosferatu tome in Fates for Odin. Sure, 20 extra avoid might let him take on some tanky high res packs that would otherwise outdamage his healing. Chances are those would still be problematic for him given that ninjas/pegs give him trouble due to their speed and wta, not just their hit rate. I would even guess that later on in the game theyre hitting him pretty accurately despite having 20 extra avoid.

Same issue goes for the doubling thing...there are plenty of things Odin cant double even if the tome allowed it, and the extra healing wouldnt even be relevant a lot of the time. One of the things that make odin so damn good is how hes able to consistently pull entire packs of enemies and finish the turn with a chunk of exp from hitting them but leave all the kill exp for the rest of your army. Once you get him rolling in the earlygame, besides his short detour to grab vantage, he can basically level to 20/20 and barely eat up any actual kills to do it. On top of that, he leaves enemies low enough to feed the kills in just about any way you choose. If your heart desired to train up a unit you havent touched since their join, picking off low health enemies with a heartseeker debuff is pretty easy.

I will admit that Odin would become even more broken with the crit thing between his solid skill growth, sorc bonus crit, and personal skill. While I doubt it would see widespread use (you have to give up the 2nd nos user to forge it and activate his personal), maybe having a unit that can tank the world and then turn around and crit as if hes got a mjolnir strapped to him might be too much flexibility for one character to possess. On the other hand, once again, the extra healing probably wouldnt be too relevant, and while the raw damage increase on bulky targets might be appreciated, its still not anywhere near what Elise/Ophelia/Arthur/Camilla are doing with a Lightning or a Brave Axe. Hell, the way I use him I'm happy he cant crit...last thing I need is his overlevelled ass stealing actual kills from my PP squad by way of random crits.

As for procs, Vengeance already saw a nerf to its consistency for good reason, and with the scaling down of HP pools from awakening to fates, you dont need the extra damage to keep up with healing back what comes your way. I'll admit its still a real problem if Odin could run around in awakening syle with VV and a nos tome, but the lower HP pools give him less bonus damage for doing so anyway. On top of the fact that he only has innate access to Vengeance himself, and marrying Charlotte or Selena for sol sounds silly...most of what gives him problems come from missing a nos hit, getting debuffed to squishyness, getting doubled, or getting one shot by a stray crit or just overall hard hitter. Procs do very little to help in those situations.

In a game where your nos tank isnt running around with every stat capped halfway through the game, the tome itself doesnt seem half as broken. What makes Odin so good is how his bases and growths lend themselves to Nos tanking. He has solid luck to make sure hes not getting crit. He has great bulk in his high HP, def, and res to soak up damage. He has just enough mag to heal for a decent amount, especially given that Conquest enemies tend to run around with fairly low res. He has just enough speed to not get doubled by too many things. He has solid skill and heartseeker puts in work to ensure he lands the hits and heals back to full. The only way you could make him any better at his job (without just giving him MORE stats) would be to take all his str base/growth and distribute them anywhere else. As an example of what awakenings nos tome looks like in the hands of someone with a completely different stat distribution, look no further than Nyx. She can double a million things that odin could never dream of doubling. For more damage as well. But she doesnt have anywhere near the bulk or hit rate to casually stroll from one side of the map to the other with a nos tome in hand and not die a painful death. 

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Nitpicking.

Nos is inarguably suuuuper nerfed. It's noticeable any time a not-general-bulk mage touches the tome. You can test the awakening vs fates comparison in revelations (basicly the same statspread) if you like. Rev Odin is still extremely busted (nogrind) because Odin.

Sorc is just completely minmaxed for single hit damage, so the nos drawbacks don't matter if your sorc has general bulk/extremely high damage output/both. Doubling is just worthless when you rely on vantagestack abuse and lightning and procs are actively worse than most stack skills.

Odin can A+ Laslow for sol if you want that fsr, or he can take the much more useful strong riposte.

Odin can easily run V/LaD/Mal/Riposte/thing for +15-20 damage, this is basicly VV. He can straight ohko with nos if he wants to, but Ophelia exists and a +2/3 forged flibberdilibber or wta gate abuse is just better in ohko situations. His crit boost is meaningless outside of early turn rigging.

Odin's growths are the third highest in the game, you could remove his str growth entirely and he would still have royal growths. It's thilly.

Nyx's issue is that she's a player phase focused mage in a game with 5 viable ep mages and lightning. Her individual flaws are secondary to the part where she's a completely outclassed babyhole.

Edited by joshcja
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I'd like to point out that Awakening's enemies also had super garbage defenses, which probably contributed to Nos users have really dumb sustain, even when they're typically more squishy units. Consider that, for the hardest sections of the game, the enemies largely featured at unpromoted units with single-digit Def and Res. In many crucial cases, enemies will have 3 or less Res. Sure, some promoted "captains" are thrown in there that are a bit tougher and can cause the Nostank some problems, but those are minor simply because said captain's buddies are feeding the Nostank like bad MOBA players. Even if EXP gain was nerfed to try to make things less super-unit friendly, it probably wouldn't impact things all that much because the maps are full of free extra HP. Lunatic+ seems to have introduce Counter to both deal with super units in general and Nostanking, but the end result of such a clunky counter is that everything Nostank/bow spam/Gale abuse/Rescue abuse is just significantly worse and requires babying to be viable.

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chapter 26 was an experience... the first part was actually quite normal... but the moment with all these generals.. fuck they were all so diverse with their weapons.... Charlotte came through! that bitch with a hammer rekt them! than god i have given her sol tho....

 

omg i just found out how u can buy skills through castles visits.... men that feels like hacking since u can give everyone anything.... and dare i say that aptitude completely negates teh whole characters unique experience?

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everyone and their mothers have astra :lol: i guess its the new gale force :lol:

 

and is it just me or lethality is completely garbage in fates? in awakening lonqu was recking everyone with it but my ninja avatar barely procs it and it can also miss !! or maybe i was just lucky in awakening

 

yeah i dont think i will ever use this mechanic.... call me old fashioned but it feels cheap...

Edited by Pegasus Knight
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2 hours ago, joshcja said:

Nitpicking.

I guess...at the end of the day Nos is crack-level good and the discussion of the finer details is just a fun thing to think about...the only way to truly get people to stop abusing it would be to nerf the healing on it, to the point where its mathematically impossible to outheal the damage coming in from a large chunk of map. Until Odin is no longer able to do Odin things to this game, it's kinda hard to argue that the tome itself got gutted *that hard*.

Nos is inarguably suuuuper nerfed. It's noticeable any time a not-general-bulk mage touches the tome. You can test the awakening vs fates comparison in revelations (basicly the same statspread) if you like. Rev Odin is still extremely busted (nogrind) because Odin.

Sorc is just completely minmaxed for single hit damage, so the nos drawbacks don't matter if your sorc has general bulk/extremely high damage output/both. Doubling is just worthless when you rely on vantagestack abuse and lightning and procs are actively worse than most stack skills.

Agree with this, which is why I think the nerfs to the tome itself do very little to address how broken it is. As far as squishy mages touching the tome, was it really much different in Awakening? Never tried it for myself to be fair, but I just don't see someone as squishy as Miriel doing anything productive with it, similar to Nyx. Maybe Henry has the bulk to pull it off? Still doubt it due to all the crazy damage that comes your way in that game. Maybe someone like @Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi who's done more experimenting in Awakening can shed a light on the issue of not-Robin nos use.

Odin can A+ Laslow for sol if you want that fsr, or he can take the much more useful strong riposte.

Odin can easily run V/LaD/Mal/Riposte/thing for +15-20 damage, this is basicly VV. He can straight ohko with nos if he wants to, but Ophelia exists and a +2/3 forged flibberdilibber or wta gate abuse is just better in ohko situations. His crit boost is meaningless outside of early turn rigging.

Ooooh, forgot about Laslow, good point. Not that I think its really worth doing, was just using it as an example of procs being removed from the tome not really mattering. And yeah, comparing straight stack to VV (even with pre-nerf Vengeance) just makes you realize you are doing the same thing without rolling the dice on the proc chance.

 

Before people start pointing out that Odin is the sole reason I seem to think even the nerfed tome is so good, I've seen Corrin casually waltz through the game the same way Odin does, even without bothering to get Vantage. Hell, the tome itself is so damn good that even Leo could do it off an immediate Sorc reclass, despite being flat out worse at the job than Odin in every single way. Busted tome is still busted.

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Astra is not really that good, though. Its proc rate is pretty bad. Granted, when it does proc, you get a free Dual Guard, so it's oddly interesting as a defensive skill, but it's just not anything remotely reliable.

Lethality has never really been that good. For the most part, stuff in the [=GBA=] games couldn't survive the normal 3x damage from a crit, so having Crit/2% chance to instant kill made little sense (of course, you'd get weird fringe cases like with freak procs on bulky bosses, but eh). Path of Radiance suffered from a similar issue, though there were some hard targets that Volke's Str couldn't take care of. On the other hand, it involved using 1 of 4 precious items that could easily see Better use on other units. In Radiant Dawn, Skill/2% wasn't very reliable and Volke came at the end of the game with pretty good Str, so it was maybe useful on a handful of enemy types. Awakening nerfed it even further to Skill/4%, which made it pretty terrible, in all honesty. Beyond that, most enemies have super trash Def/Res, so you're much more likely to see results out of focusing on boosting Crit. Fates did end up making it even worse, though not in a really significant way because Skill/4% is already really trash for proc rate. However, all stats were lowered on average, so Lethality's already sad proc rate suffered even more. It's still better than nothing and maybe a few other overly niche skills, but it's just mostly not even worth considering.

 

4 minutes ago, Cowazon said:

Agree with this, which is why I think the nerfs to the tome itself do very little to address how broken it is. As far as squishy mages touching the tome, was it really much different in Awakening? Never tried it for myself to be fair, but I just don't see someone as squishy as Miriel doing anything productive with it, similar to Nyx. Maybe Henry has the bulk to pull it off? Still doubt it due to all the crazy damage that comes your way in that game. Maybe someone like @Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi who's done more experimenting in Awakening can shed a light on the issue of not-Robin nos use.

It's just a matter of getting ahead of the curve. Non-Robins are going to have more trouble getting there, so Miriel/Tharja/Henry won't be able to tank armies right off, but they'll still be able to take one more enemies than they normally should be able to. Since enemies have super terrible Res, as long as you've got enough base Atk, you can survive for a very long time. The sort of poster boy of this kind of thing is Gregor!Laurent. He's one of the few kids worth going for on Lunatic+ because his Nostanking game is very strong, despite not having especially good innate bulk.

Edited by Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi
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48 minutes ago, Pegasus Knight said:

well fuck me gently with a chainsaw... who thought it was a goof idea to not let us save before the endgame??!!

Yeah, all the endgames are nosave.

Thankfully you can stairskip ch27 and 1 turn 28 with rescue. If you fuckered up by not building a stacked brave axe Be and need to fish for DF proc's I'm so sorry.

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12 hours ago, joshcja said:

Yeah, all the endgames are nosave.

Thankfully you can stairskip ch27 and 1 turn 28 with rescue. If you fuckered up by not building a stacked brave axe Be and need to fish for DF proc's I'm so sorry.

yeah if u havent noticed already i am a complete noob... i havent used the forge mechanic like ever.... i am gonna try one more time if i cant do it i will do that trick....

And then i am gonna restart a new file with more planing this time...

 

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28 minutes ago, Pegasus Knight said:

yeah if u havent noticed already i am a complete noob... i havent used the forge mechanic like ever.... i am gonna try one more time if i cant do it i will do that trick....

And then i am gonna restart a new file with more planing this time...

 

To be fair most Corrin's can kill garon via the shadow yato (It semi peirces DS) with a single DF proc at a roughly 25% chance. So 1/4 attempts. There's some math by a dude using MN!MU in this threads backlog on how much additional damage you'll need after Gunther/Be, tonics, and rally.

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Dragon Fang should be a bit more reliable than that? Corrin averages 25 Skill at 20/20 in Noble with a boon and bane that don't affect Skill. +2 Tonic +4 Rally +1 Laslow is 32 Skill which puts Dragon Fang proc at 24% per hit (about 42% chance to proc at least once in two attacks).

I mean less reliable than Berserker/Sorcerer sure but if you haven't stacked one of those properly Ch27 + Endgame are short enough to take your chances.

If Corrin's too weak and needs two Dragon Fang procs then things are dicey.

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26 minutes ago, Dean said:

Dragon Fang should be a bit more reliable than that? Corrin averages 25 Skill at 20/20 in Noble with a boon and bane that don't affect Skill. +2 Tonic +4 Rally +1 Laslow is 32 Skill which puts Dragon Fang proc at 24% per hit (about 42% chance to proc at least once in two attacks).

I mean less reliable than Berserker/Sorcerer sure but if you haven't stacked one of those properly Ch27 + Endgame are short enough to take your chances.

If Corrin's too weak and needs two Dragon Fang procs then things are dicey.

Derp. Forgot the part where Corncob gets two chances x.x

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  • 1 month later...

Started another play through. Nearly up to C25. Much use for Silence in C26? Don’t think it would be hard to get but Corrin crushes Ryoma so considering just grabbing the 10k gold chest and winning.

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I recently started my second CQ!Lunatic run, and I decided to match F!Corrin and Odin this time through to capitalize on the sweet, sweet loot from Ophelia's chapter as early as possible. 

I got her before chapter 12. I completed chapter 18 after two attempts last night, and that was the first map that wasn't borderline easy. Odin is starting to fall slightly behind, so I need to give him more exp before he falls off completely, but I have murderphelia with vantage and dragon fang inherited. I'll HS her into Master at Arms when she hits level 33 (witch) to get LaD, because I'm not wasting money and seals on trying to make a dual rallybot Velouria. I'm not even using Keaton this time around, which I might regret. 

Niles once again failed to level strength at all before level 12. I had to early promote him at chapter 10 just so he would have enough strength to actually kill the pegasus knights and ninjas. It was that bad. He has always failed me. I resorted to using Shura and Mechanist!Kaze in chapter 17, and Calamity Gate Ophelia as well, which worked just fine. That took the most time and attempts so far, at around 2 hours or so (I am so used to hard that I kept forgetting every master ninja in the cave had (EDIT) Grisly Wound which got me killed). 

I did capture two of the ch11 lunge ninjas to abuse later (maybe in Ryoma's chapter? I'm not sure where to use them just yet). Laslow has been getting incredible level ups, he's a level 5 hero now -- about to S rank Harlot so I can pick up Soleil -- I'll be making her another master ninja, I saved an arms scroll for that purpose. 

Edited by Mandokarla
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Looking at enemy stats I thought base Niles should OHKO C10 Sky Knights and 2HKO Ninja? Needs a tonic for the Ninja.

 

I finished my play through this morning, similarly I had a 10 Strength Niles at Lv17 going into C17... dude still finished 4th on my kills list. Dude just keeps finding ways to make himself useful.

 

I even used Bifröst this run! ...I do not like Invasion 3.

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1 hour ago, Dean said:

Looking at enemy stats I thought base Niles should OHKO C10 Sky Knights and 2HKO Ninja? Needs a tonic for the Ninja.

 

I finished my play through this morning, similarly I had a 10 Strength Niles at Lv17 going into C17... dude still finished 4th on my kills list. Dude just keeps finding ways to make himself useful.

 

I even used Bifröst this run! ...I do not like Invasion 3.

He could kill the flyers, I should have stressed the "and". Mine couldn't kill the ninjas without Effie on his back -- fuck that noise. Niles has failed me every single time, I have no faith. Besides, I don't really use the capture mechanic that much, and I have Ophelia with Calamity Gate -- all is well.

I did take the time to get a Wyvern Lord Midori with Golembane because of the fucking Golem staircase. I hate that map with a burning passion, it's the first map in Conquest that made me legitimately ragequit, and still does so. This time, I'm prepared. 

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5 hours ago, Mandokarla said:

He could kill the flyers, I should have stressed the "and". Mine couldn't kill the ninjas without Effie on his back -- fuck that noise. Niles has failed me every single time, I have no faith. Besides, I don't really use the capture mechanic that much, and I have Ophelia with Calamity Gate -- all is well.

I did take the time to get a Wyvern Lord Midori with Golembane because of the fucking Golem staircase. I hate that map with a burning passion, it's the first map in Conquest that made me legitimately ragequit, and still does so. This time, I'm prepared. 

Prepare to be underwhelemed lol. (Golemsbane is just WMtx2 and Midori has ass damage until x/15, her damage after that is stellar but... this aint happening before stairs)

If you actually want to blick golems just airdrop lightning sorc/Stack a brave axe/Attack stance with bolt axe.

It's always worth using niles until ch23 tbh, just for rallyman and some Srank stave maids. Even with 0 str procs.

Use the lunge captures early if you grab em, actual entrap stave > jank entrap stave.

Edited by joshcja
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9 hours ago, joshcja said:

Prepare to be underwhelemed lol. (Golemsbane is just WMtx2 and Midori has ass damage until x/15, her damage after that is stellar but... this aint happening before stairs)

If you actually want to blick golems just airdrop lightning sorc/Stack a brave axe/Attack stance with bolt axe.

It's always worth using niles until ch23 tbh, just for rallyman and some Srank stave maids. Even with 0 str procs.

Use the lunge captures early if you grab em, actual entrap stave > jank entrap stave.

I still have the two lunge ninjas, I haven't used them yet. I have an idea for them later on, but I'll need to look ahead. 

Midori is actually in a place right now where she can do decent damage to golems. I went and tested against Boo camp stoneborn (which I know are MUCH weaker, and don't have wary fighter) and she was ALMOST one shotting them, which will give me the little bit of damage I didn't have last time, on a flyer. I hate the stairway. Anything that makes it even slightly easier is my best friend. 

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I wound up beating the stairway by only deploying Odin, Ophelia, Camilla, and Corrin. I paired Corrin up with Camilla T1, had Camilla lunge the right side stoneborn. Odin paired up with his daughter and she triggered first dragon vein. Turn 2 I moved Camilla up, lunged the next stoneborn by the second dragon vein, warped (witch) Ophelia onto the dragon vein and used it. T3 I repeated. T4 I flew camilla into the leftmost escape square, equipped an steel axe, and waited. Warped Ophelia next to her, escaped Ophelia. Camilla survived the next turn, and escaped. Felt good. 

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(Going to assume you mean Conquest)

Use capturables, though that would require using Niles.  You can ditch him once you captured all the enemies you want.  So many good ones to choose from but here is a core list of can't miss captured units.  You have to be at least on Hard Mode to get these guys, and any Lunatic exclusive ones will be specified.

Chapter 9 - Haitaka

Chapter 11 - Samurai w/ Armored Blow, Lunge (Lunatic Only)

Chapter 11 - Ninja w/ Seal Speed (Lunatic Only)

Chapter 13 - Kumagera

Chapter 16 - Adventurer w/ Seal Strength, Seal Defense (Lunatic Only)

Chapter 16 - Heroes w/ Armored Blow or Darting Blow (Darting Blow ones are Lunatic Only)

Chapter 17 - Master Ninja w/ Movement +1, Grisly Wound, Locktouch, Poison Strike (Lunatic Only for Grisly Wound)

Chapter 18 - General w/ Warding Blow, Wary Fighter

Chapter 23 - Rallyman! (4 rallies on Lunatic, only 2 on Hard)

Chapter 23 - Spear Masters w/ Amaterasu + 3 Rallies (3 rallies on Lunatic, only 1 on Hard; the ones next to Hinata)

Later Chapters offer a diverse selection of enemies with staff access.  Can't go wrong with a Falcon Knight or Onmyoji.  Chapter 20 does offer Priestesses and Great Masters to choose from too.

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2 hours ago, Dean said:

Thinking of starting a new run, shying away from the regulars (Camilla Xander Leo Silas Niles). Any suggestions?

For a strong setup?

Just snag 4 early males and roll wifu's + kids +freestaves +obligitory firstservxcorn.

Following this it really does not matter who you use, stack n stomp is happening. On anything but a first playthrough the freedom of usage is real.

For weak but cute...

Harem strats~

Edited by joshcja
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12 hours ago, anniec8711 said:

(Going to assume you mean Conquest)

Use capturables, though that would require using Niles.  You can ditch him once you captured all the enemies you want.  So many good ones to choose from but here is a core list of can't miss captured units.  You have to be at least on Hard Mode to get these guys, and any Lunatic exclusive ones will be specified.

I’ve used a few of these dudes before; I think most people have used the C23 MoA at least once! Don’t think I’ve ever used Haitaka offensively before though but he’s cute Rally Defence/Swap support.

 

9 hours ago, joshcja said:

For a strong setup?

Just snag 4 early males and roll wifu's + kids +freestaves +obligitory firstservxcorn.

Following this it really does not matter who you use, stack n stomp is happening. On anything but a first playthrough the freedom of usage is real.

For weak but cute...

Harem strats~

Just interested in trying some units I’m not too familiar with that can still prove effevtive hopefully... maybe someone will share some sick Keaton strats or something.

..Arthur Odin Laslow sounds like a decent enough base to work with.

Problem with harem is I don’t like most of the girls in this game :’(

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