Kirby's Return to Mafia Land - Game Over

[Randa]

So are you saying you disagree with what I said about freyajadour? Or just that it was weaker than my case on mancer?

[Refa]

I don't agree with scumslips on principle.

[Elieson]

Wow this game started and I just realized I never even read this rule

- This is a Choose Someone Else's Role game! At the start of the game, all 14 roles are set, but unassigned. After the Day 1 lynch target flips, twilight will start and the lynchee will pick another player and assign them a role from the List of Copy Abilities. That player will then assign a different player a role, and so on until everyone has a role. Each role may only be assigned once. Role assignment is to be done openly in thread, but people are not allowed to post anything other than role assignments during the twilight phase.

I wouldn't have signed up for this had I noticed that this was the premise.

I'll also admit that I've read jack diddly thus far but feel like posting to at least acknowledge that i noticed this game starting up

[Refa]

(I also don't think that making an argument based on scumslips is scummy, just not correct)

[solrocknroll]

As a response to who I think wagoned, mainly Clarinets. It didn't have much substance behind it and it came after Refa and SB already had votes upon Izhuark.

I think Randa's case on me was created based on flat out misreading what I said. It arguably could be considered scummy tbh, because it could count as twisting words. In all, it was some flimsy reasoning that relied on me actually saying that it was a good idea to case Kirsche, and it didn't take much effort to claim.

##Unvote

##Vote: Randa

[Randa]

I don't agree with scumslips on principle.

That doesn't answer the question. Do you or do you not believe the wording was scummy?

As a response to who I think wagoned, mainly Clarinets. It didn't have much substance behind it and it came after Refa and SB already had votes upon Izhuark.

I think Randa's case on me was created based on flat out misreading what I said. It arguably could be considered scummy tbh, because it could count as twisting words. In all, it was some flimsy reasoning that relied on me actually saying that it was a good idea to case Kirsche, and it didn't take much effort to claim.##Unvote

##Vote: Randa

This is a pure OMGUS vote.

[Mitsuki]

Can you explain why you disagree with the Izhuark reads?

Sorry can you just explain the izuhark read a bit, is a legit read if so is it just because of the role pm thing, cause I'm not seeing anything towny or scummy about him ATM.

Sure. I'll mix answering these two questions plus further Izhuark defense in the same post.

These are the events that lead to SB's vote on Izhuark:

1. Kirsche voted Proto.

2. Izhuark voted Kirsche.

Pay a closer look to Kirsche's post. The first thing he says is that he's voting Proto because he's trying too hard. Now look at these two sentences by Izhuark: "What are you doing kirsche ? I really don't get your point" "Seriously this kind of comportment is at least anti-town". Now look at Kirsche's post again. Where is the reasoning? Now look at Izhuark's post again. Where is the reasoning? Conclusion: Kirsche seemed to vote Proto on being bad and Izhuark didn't like it and voted him on bad too. There is no reasoning in either post.

The difference is Kirsche explained more later and Izhuark did too, but only to say he wasn't convinced about his read, which he pretty much gave away before. Do you think scum would just act like that? Dude is honest when he says he doesn't feel conviction in his read, for the simple fact that nobody would try to act like your reads are not worth it to be townread. As scum you want to be seen as someone who has conviction in your cases. First, to seem townie, convince people and lynch town. Second, because absolutely nobody townreads people on not having conviction, except yeah, apparently me. And nobody would go to the extent of trying to apply such lame reverse psychology stuff to seem townie, specially when it comes to a dude who has rather low self-confidence. Go check his play other games, you'll see what I mean.

Now to the actual Izhuark case by SB:

I don't like the kirsche vote. We don't want to spend all day discussing role assignments because trying to get scum lynched is still more important. This vote just feels really easy to me and he's even kind of discrediting it from the start with "is this just to get us out of RVS" which makes me feel like he doesn't even believe in it.

I don't like his vote either, but I don't see how any of this is scummy behaviour and not just Izhuark's playstyle/personality.

Here you (SB) were assuming Izhuark understood Kirsche's intentions behind that vote, but I'm pretty sure he actually didn't. That is why Izhuark expressed confusion when he "cased" Kirsche.

Mancer's case is just the same again. The vote was bad. There was no conviction. But it's a playstyle/personality thing, not a scummy thing. Same for Clarinet's case.

And now to my earlier townread on Izhuark:

When I claimed Kirby, I expected one two things to happen: Either I was Kirby and Prims had just decided to put my PM as a sample, which seemed too dumb and too much of a coincidence, or we all were Kirby.

I thought that, if it was the latter, someone would go and say that they were Kirby too, which would make them more likely to be town, even if it wasn't confirmed. Scum could just go and claim that they're Kirby too but I'd expect them to be more skeptical about it by default, since it'd imply claiming flavor. Scum don't have the town's information, nor do they know if the town PM is exactly the same for everyone or not. Definitely not an amazing way to get a townread but still worth taking into account.

Given the fact that the dude who answered doesn't seem to be very daring, I thought that my townread was stronger than if someone else had. And since he's been lynched on really, really terrible cases before, I thought it'd be extra important for him to be townread, before everyone else wagoned him on bad cases again. Sadly it has ended up happening either way.

[Sunwoo]

Boron, how does Clarinets' post have too MUCH padding? It's just one sentence replies to all of the previous posts.

That's what I mean, though. A lot of those one-sentence replies don't need to be there at all because they don't add anything to the discussion, but makes it look like he has more content than he really does on initial glance.

[Sunwoo]

Also, I'm Skyping with Shin so don't expect me to be really keeping up until I'm less busy.

[Refa]

As a response to who I think wagoned, mainly Clarinets. It didn't have much substance behind it and it came after Refa and SB already had votes upon Izhuark.

My vote was an RVS vote with the only reasoning behind it being "Izhuark generally gives telling reactions to being voted, so I'm voting him". I don't think I even talked about him in my past posts because my general impression of him is "he's playing as he usually does" and I don't really have a read on him.

Why didn't you vote Clarinets if you think he's likely to be scum?

That doesn't answer the question. Do you or do you not believe the wording was scummy?

This is a pure OMGUS vote.

No. Also labeling a vote as an OMGUS is a poor defense.

That's what I mean, though. A lot of those one-sentence replies don't need to be there at all because they don't add anything to the discussion, but makes it look like he has more content than he really does on initial glance.

Oh. I just got fucked up on semantics, then. Carry on, citizen.

[Mitsuki]

Freyjadour is playing very differently from what I recall reading in Realm of Mirrors. He seemed obvtown to me there, I think the difference in playstyle also makes him scummier. Fight me Freyjadour.

Why is he scum and not just someone with a different opinion? I don't feel great about Izuhark at this juncture, but I also don't like how fast the wagon on him built up.

What do you think about this post by Izhuark, where he further explains his Kirsche "read"?

[solrocknroll]

Freyjadour is playing very differently from what I recall reading in Realm of Mirrors. He seemed obvtown to me there, I think the difference in playstyle also makes him scummier. Fight me Freyjadour.

What do you think about this post by Izhuark, where he further explains his Kirsche "read"?

I wouldn't say it was a scummy change, but I learned how to hold up under pressure, back up my cases, and actually challenge any claim I don't feel is satisfactory. I also learned that the goo of the town is above the good of myself.

[CT075]

i'll be honest and say that i forgot that this game existed

also posting/reading is hard when you're sick and would rather fail at osu than try to think

who are my scumbuddies anyway they should be here to help me ou- I MEAN UH HOW GOES THAT SCUMHUNTING ANYWAY

---

I had this whole list of quotes that I lost when my internet shit out but they were mostly about the fact that i don't think rolespeccing will be productive; if when we lynch scum today, having a public list of what roles we do or don't want on town will only give scum more ideas about how to fuck us over

secondly i don't like how everyone is jumping on freyjadour. i have to go back and examine the wagon more closely but something about it is just bugging me.

more once my sinus clears and i don't feel like my head is going to explode

[CT075]

in case it wasn't clear: town should make their own, informed and thought-out decisions regarding their role choices.

[Randa]

Then explain why please.

Also not a defense, just a statement. If there was an actual case I would make a defense, if there was a disagreement I would ask for his opinion and have a discussion. It's just an OMGUS it adds nothing and there's nothing to comment on from the post.

Now to defend my opinion on the wording or more appropriately to explain it since I might have done a poor job doing so at first. The major problem is the wording which should be obvious based on my post when I voted. The most important part about this is that town has no reason to ever say I don't think it was a good idea to case someone. The reason is it looks like he's trying to discourage cases with limited basis which is anti-town particularly early day 1. And as I said earlier it reads to me as scum interaction. The initial vote on him was more to see how he reacts, which it seems non-committal and weaker then my mancer case. The reason I wanted to see his reaction is because none of his posts had any real content in them so I wanted to make him make content. I wouldn't have had a problem switching votes if he made an explanation of the situation and given an actual fleshed out opinion on kirsche and izuhark, made any content on why he thought a wagon formed so quickly or even made a point breaking down my larger post and why it was bad, which I'm sure it was I'm not eury. The problem is his response didn't do any of that. It misinterprets my case whether intentional or not, and doesn't actually respond to any of my points. His post where he actually votes me doesn't discuss anything scummy about my actual play, his vote also has no real conviction behind it IMO.

It arguably could be considered scummy tbh, because it could count as twisting words.

That's verbatim, that's not taking it out of context to strengthen my point that's his main justification for voting me, which didn't happen might I add until to you brought up that you thought I was scum or at the very least that my read was wrong. I he thought I was manipulating his words he would have voted me for that in his initial reponse but he didn't he waited till he saw there was the possibility of a wagon building against me, which makes me more confident he's scum.

I would like to hear your opinion on what I've said though.

[Randa]

Philosophy class ruined my post style

[Refa]

secondly i don't like how everyone is jumping on freyjadour. i have to go back and examine the wagon more closely but something about it is just bugging me.

It's me, Mitsuki, and then Randa in that order with Boron being suspicious of him but not voting him.

@Rangda

Explain why? If it's why I'm bothered by you, I've already done that. If it's talking about something else, uh you should probably clarify that.

Fair enough regarding Freyja's vote on you. What you've said in your recent post makes me feel better about you (mostly because it shows that there's been a thought process behind your actions that I didn't really pick up on until you flat out stated what it was and the wording in the paragraph after the quote)!

[Randa]

Sorry I mean you disagree.

[Randa]

*why you disagree

[Refa]

Don't really have any reasoning, it just doesn't seem scummy (if you're talking about his word choice still).

[Mitsuki]

Kirsche what do you think about the fact that Proto only cares about rolespec usually

[Sunwoo]

What do you think about this post by Izhuark, where he further explains his Kirsche "read"?

Yes there were no conviction in my vote on kirsche and no it was not forced, there were just no content at that time and for me, in this game, voting someone that just tried to help us rolespeccing was bad. So unless i'm that bad at mafia, i know that ED1 i should vote on the one that seem the most suspicious to me and to that point someone that vote on someone else without any point nor scumread seemed scummy for me.

Okay, now that I'm noticing this, I don't like how Izuhark says he lacks conviction in his vote for kirsche. Yes, I get that it's ED1, but a complete lack of conviction feels noncommittal. I'm also having a bit of trouble deciphering what he's saying in his second sentence, but it sounds like he's saying kirsche's vote on Proto lacked a point and a scum read? If that's what he's saying I highly disagree with that.

Why is Freyjadour voting Randa? His vote on Randa is flimsy and overly defensive, don't like.

[SB.]

##Unvote

I liked Izhuark's response because I feel that he would be more likely to back down and try to save face as scum, rather than trying to back out when under a lot of pressure. I kept this back before because I didn't really want to affect what Mitsuki would post for her read.

Refa's Freya vote is good, I'd sheep it even though I don't have anything to add to it.

Randa's first post includes a lot of game theory (kinda) and not a lot else imo? He keeps going on about the importance of scumhunting over rolespeccing but then doesn't really do a lot of scumhunting himself. And the voteswap to Freya kind of sucks - why is it strong enough for you to drop your Mancer vote immediately when it had more substance to it? Apparently it was just a reaction test in the end? I really don't like this because it feels like an excuse to explain the inconsistency more than anything else.

Boron, what's your read on Freya? Your post didn't really have much of a conclusion to that read despite saying a fair amonut about him which is kind of ???

Mitsuki's explanations are alright to the point that I don't /really/ suspect her anymore but I still have a nagging gut feeling that she's scum. On the opposite end of the spectrum I'm gut/metareading Cam as town but idk if I'm trying too hard to draw parallels to Realm of Mirrors here or not.

##Vote: Randa

Probably won't be able to post again until late tomorrow.

[Sunwoo]

Boron, what's your read on Freya? Your post didn't really have much of a conclusion to that read despite saying a fair amonut about him which is kind of ???

That's probably because I really don't know what to say about him. By his actions and words alone I'd say he's scummy, but after what he pulled in Realm of Mirrors I'm not confident enough to rule out the possibility that he's just awful!town either ;/

[CT075]

okay, let's just go through a bit of a "THINGS THAT HAPPENED" montage instead of trying to quotewall because i can't breathe

you all know my opinion on the rolespeccing (waste of time, possibly even actively harmful)

i like mitsuki's reasoning when she says that the whole "HEY EVERYONE IS KIRBY" thing is a townslip by Izhuark, but some part of my gut doesn't want to let go of the possibility that it's an accident. i had this whole long paragraph written up about how it'd be a really ballsy move if they were scumbuddies and then went back and realized that the sample role PM is identical to the original role PMs given out in the first Kirby and that it probably isn't such a stretch after all. i haven't played with either person, really (izhuark subbed out of RoM and i can't actually remember if i've played a real game with mitsuki or not which means that as far as i'm concerned i haven't), so i can't say with certainty that it wasn't staged, either. for now, though, i don't see a reason to distrust either of them

then people start jumping on izhuark for this post here, which is, admittedly, rather weak. sb's post is fine, but then you get this one. The first half seems noncommittal but is otherwise okay, but it then ends with an Izhuark vote justification i'm not really a fan of - to steal SB's phrase, it seems "too easy". why is saying "X is anti-town" anti-town? why does it even matter "what kind of anti-town" he means?

This Clarinets post is a lot of "i agree" which looks productive but isn't really. In particular I take issue with the last sentence, the one about "This feels Towny and genuine..." - what makes it feel towny/genuine? Why is it more conducive to discussion than anything else that's happened up to that point?

this mitsuki post bugs me for reasons I can't pin down. first of all, i don't feel that "it'd be hypocritical for me to not do X" is a valid reason to not do X if X is a town thing to do (where X in this case is "defending people you don't want lynched"). there are supposedly "specific reasons regardless of reads" here that intrigue me. do you know something we don't? nobody should have any non-factional role information yet, so the straightforward conclusion is that you are non-town.

##Vote: Mitsuki

Note that I was townreading Mitsuki before this point, so I am going to wait for a response.

Then there's this post which is super bizarre but he's new so I don't know whether to cast judgement???

Freyja's post is a lot of nothing - at this point I count five votes on Izhuark. ED1 wagons happen all the time, considering half the game wasn't even on at the time I seriously doubt that we were going to accidentally hammer. Secondly, "nobody but Izhuark has even done anything" - I don't see how you can say this when you just said that the Izhuark wagon was too fast. Surely you have something to say about all the votes on him? Do you think he's scum and all the votes on him are justified? In that case, what's the harm in dropping a vote? If scum were to swoop in and steal a hammer off a misunderstood town that would be blatantly nontown and we'd have something to work off of for roles or D2.

This guy has the right idea.

going to read more but want to get this out