Jump to content

Ike's FE Megathread {15.5}


Integrity
 Share

Recommended Posts

28 minutes ago, Specta said:

we have totally different memories of bandit keith 

and i had a really embarrassing hardcore yugioh fan phase in my early teens

IIRC the memetic version of that guy is from that 'Yugioh Abridged' thing that was popular in like 2001.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 653
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

13 hours ago, Parrhesia said:

IIRC the memetic version of that guy is from that 'Yugioh Abridged' thing that was popular in like 2001.

apparently still popular enough because the guy is still making them

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I was waiting for this.

I think you're giving Lifis too much credit. He shows no remorse for his actions, (including but not limited to torturing a man to death, which IMO is far worse than lusting after Saphy), and plans to betray Leaf to the Empire once they reach Tahra. If you're going to give someone the benefit of the doubt, it should the dude who helps villagers rather than the dude who robs and kills them.

Lara's suplot is creepy but the very least you can say for it is that Lara consents to becoming a dancer, and based on what Finn says in chapter 1, fifteen is considered a legal adult in Thracia.

Edited by Baldrick
Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 hours ago, Baldrick said:

I think you're giving Lifis too much credit. He shows no remorse for his actions, (including but not limited to torturing a man to death, which IMO is far worse than lusting after Saphy), and plans to betray Leaf to the Empire once they reach Tahra. If you're going to give someone the benefit of the doubt, it should the dude who helps villagers rather than the dude who robs and kills them.

 

so let me address this directly instead of pussying out like i do sometimes

 

1: lifis' crimes are entirely limited to torturing a guy, according to some bandit, offscreen, as he was "taught to" (this is never addressed again) by august. this is probably more a knock against thracia than against lifis, but i had to actually go back and look up this line to make sure i wasn't misremembering that it even existed, it's such a throwaway. he does explicitly plan to turn us in at tahra, but he has no lines past 12x and does nothing to the effect, so it's just a plan - again, probably a knock against thracia rather than lifis, but in my narrative of safy redeeming him bit by bit (supported by his final ending of taking government office and rooting out bandits) it fits just fine.

 

2: pan has the same argument lifis does, as it happens. he's said to help villagers, never shown to do anything besides be pretty sympathetic in 12 and entirely unsympathetic and in fact a total bastard in 12x. 50/50, he's a good thief or a total rotten fucker, depending on which chapter's interpretation you go along with.

 

all in all, it comes down to how you interpret the totally mixed signals this game gives you about these two dudes and the fact that thracia's script, as far as the secondary/tertiary characters are concerned, is a complete unmitigated shitshow. i'm not going to say you're wrong for interpreting lifis as a total scumbag, because you're not; but from how i read it, he's a scumbag trying to get back on the true path.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1. You have to read the context. In Chapter 2, the enemy is described as "Lifis' pirates". Ronan joins you because he doesn't want his village to live in fear of Lifis anymore. Do you really think he would be so notorious if his entire rap sheet was torturing one villager?

I consider Lifis' ending non-canon because it makes no sense. He's an unrepentant douchebag (your words), is given mercy by Leaf, and plans to betray that mercy. He disappears for 90% of the game because he's not plot-important, has exactly 0 conversations with Saphy that imply he's being redeemed, then suddenly he's a government official who clears out bandits. Does that sound like a well-written character arc to you?

2. There's independent evidence to suggest he's a good thief. The woman who shelters Mareeta says that Pahn would never attack the village, and if you miss 12x, the villagers apparently tell August that Pahn is a good thief.

If you think they're lying, what is their motivation for doing so? To an army that could clear out the group.

Pahn isn't a nice guy, since he strong-arms Tina into using her Thief Staff. But he does it for a good cause.

And there is much, much more evidence to suggest Pahn is good than there is to suggest Lifis is just misunderstood.

EDIT: Also Seiram says he likes Pahn. He could just be flattering Pahn, but considering he left the Lopto Order even knowing they would kill him, I doubt that's the case.

Edited by Baldrick
Link to comment
Share on other sites

tbf i don't disagree with you, because it all points to the same thing: thracia 776 doesn't do anything with its side characters.

 

remember that thing i whined about a lot in fe4, where set pieces just didn't happen for no real reason until sigurd/etc. was there to catalyze it? it's the same thing here. ronan "doesn't want to live in fear of lifis anymore" but lifis' dude is literally burning the entire place down right now - why now? lifis is portrayed as a terrible dude in 2 and to a lesser extent 2x, and never again, just like pan is portrayed as a terrible dude in 12x and a decent dude in 12. it's just thracia's shit, inconsistent writing wrt the only side characters who could possible be interesting.

21 hours ago, Baldrick said:

 Does that sound like a well-written character arc to you?

 

no. because thracia has one character arc. it's leif's. nobody else gets a second thought.

 

21 hours ago, Baldrick said:

If you think they're lying, what is their motivation for doing so? To an army that could clear out the group..

 

i don't think they're lying! i think 12 was written in total honestly - but, on the other hand, 12x turns around and portrays him as a complete unrepentant jerk. it's not incompatible with him stealing from the rich, i guess, but with my theory that the paralogues were written by a different set of dudes, that means one set of dudes gave him one chapter and a different set gave him a second and so pan has zero consistency in portrayal. even if he's not an actual total fucker, he's a total failure of writing.

 

just for clarity, i agree with you that lifis is also shit, you have reminded me of two awful throwaway lines that i'd completely forgotten, but i'm sticking to my guns on the metatheory because fuck it, headcanon is better than whatever the game tries to be at this point wrt side characters. it's totally irrelevant to the purposes of the lp now, because both pan and lifis have 0 lines left in the entire game.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Integrity said:

remember that thing i whined about a lot in fe4, where set pieces just didn't happen for no real reason until sigurd/etc. was there to catalyze it? it's the same thing here. ronan "doesn't want to live in fear of lifis anymore" but lifis' dude is literally burning the entire place down right now - why now?

In this particular example, Ronan presumably can't beat Lifis alone so attaches himself to a passing militia because it's the only action he can take. But I agree it's sloppily handled because he doesn't say anything even when Lifis is captured.

The rest of what you say I agree with apart from how you interpret Pahn/Lifis. As an aside, 12x has no reason to exist narratively; 11x has Olwen and 12 has Mareeta, who are ostensibly important.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Pardon me for asking and/or if this sounds utterly retarded, but what are you referring to with "pacing"? You've recently made mention to it regarding Olwen's character progression, and before you referenced it in regard to Celice's fight with Yurius and the Loptyr Cult, saying that Generation 2 was a story of "a boxer getting wailed on for eight rounds and losing conclusively and hanging on by a thread of his life and then in the last seconds of the eighth round he swings his first punch that connects solidly and it happens to knock his opponent right out." Would it be a problem to explain this, maybe give examples from FE14 like you did with support convo progression?

Edited by Gruntagen
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The only "rat bastard" thing Perne does in 12x is threaten "to do terrible things" to Tina to get her to help the Dandelions. The rest is him playing the antagonist because Perne thinks Leif is part of the Imperial Army, killed Salem and is coming for him next. 

When we learn that the "terrible thing" is Perne hold bugs in front of Tina's face, the whole scenario ends up being comical, and it becomes much more apparent that Tina wasn't really being used against her will quite like the set-up to the chapter suggests (Still against her will, but Tina was never in any danger if she decided not to help them). Salem was going to get permission from Perne to help Tina find Safy. Why exactly Perne needed Tina and the Thief Staff at that exact moment is unclear, but the situation was far from dire when 12x ends.  

Compared to actually torturing a man to death, raiding a village, and lying to Safy to get her to sleep with him, Perne's a Saint compared to Lifis. 

We do learn that he apparently used to bully Lifis when they were kids, but that's pretty petty compared to murder and manipulating people for sex. 

Edited by Slumber
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Slumber, I think Integrity's issue with that isn't necessarily that it's not understandable, but that a lot of the stuff that happens in 12x is tone whiplash-y "jokes" that he doesn't actually find funny and actually damage the integrity of the characters.

 

I mean, Tina implies she's being physically abused into working for Pahn in the start of the level, only for the game to turn around and say he was basically just putting bugs down her shirt. That is not something you can just do without the player feeling some kind of cringe.

Edited by Gruntagen
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Maybe it's just my phobia talking, but I don't think the bugs were any less horrible. It was played for comedy, but psychological abuse can be even worse than physical abuse.

What I'd consider is the intent. Pahn isn't torturing Tina because he gets a kick out of it, he's doing it to fund his charity work.

Edited by Baldrick
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, Gruntagen said:

Slumber, I think Integrity's issue with that isn't necessarily that it's not understandable, but that a lot of the stuff that happens in 12x is tone whiplash-y "jokes" that he doesn't actually find funny and actually damage the integrity of the characters.

 

I mean, Tina implies she's being physically abused into working for Pahn in the start of the level, only for the game to turn around and say he was basically just putting bugs down her shirt. That is not something you can just do without the player feeling some kind of cringe.

I mean, yeah, the whole deal is just lame in hindsight, since there's a good chance that the player can kill Troude, Tina, AND Perne, only for the crux of their confrontation to be a joke and a misunderstanding, but the whole scenario's supposed to play out as a joke (Supposing you don't kill any of the Dandelions).

Even if it's a goofy set-up for a conflict and you don't like the jokes, it is a side chapter, and again, not at all comparable to what Lifis does. I don't see the chapter damaging the character of Perne, or putting him anywhere near Lifis' level.

Edited by Slumber
Link to comment
Share on other sites

There's something I've noticed with Pan: Essentially, he's a bully towards both Lifis and Tina. Lifis eventually runs off and forms another gang that attacks towns and kills people. With Tina, thing obviously work out differently, but he uses bugs to abuse her.

The thing is, Pan's actions cause another person who acts far worse than him, and who knows what might have happened with Tina? Pan's a dick.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 hours ago, Slumber said:

Even if it's a goofy set-up for a conflict and you don't like the jokes, it is a side chapter, and again, not at all comparable to what Lifis does. I don't see the chapter damaging the character of Perne, or putting him anywhere near Lifis' level.

"It doesn't matter if it's tonally messed up and if the jokes fall flat, because it's all optional content after all"

 

Just as an aside, 8x is optional content, and yet it contains one of the most important scenes for establishing Leaf's character progression and the setting of the Thracia Penisula. Heck, 2x and 4x are optional, yet they both explain the reason Leaf heads to Tahra after Chapter 9.

Edited by Gruntagen
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yeah the 'it's only a side-chapter!!' thing doesn't really fly since without the sidestories neither Lifis nor Pan is actually recruitable.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Even if that wasn't the reason why - it's still official content that's in the game. You can't just skip it and pretend it never happened.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The point wasn't necessarily "Oh, it's just a side chapter, you can skip it and not think about it."

It's more of a "It's a side chapter, and side chapters are occasionally weird one-offs." thing I added in. It's sloppy in the case of Parne's chapter, since it's a joke chapter in an otherwise completely straight and serious game.

But again, I still don't know how the chapter essentially building up to a punchline means that Perne's Robin Hood scthick is an act and he's just as bad as Lifis.

Edited by Slumber
Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 hours ago, Dayni said:

There's something I've noticed with Pan: Essentially, he's a bully towards both Lifis and Tina. Lifis eventually runs off and forms another gang that attacks towns and kills people. With Tina, thing obviously work out differently, but he uses bugs to abuse her.

The thing is, Pan's actions cause another person who acts far worse than him, and who knows what might have happened with Tina? Pan's a dick.

Lifis was planning to backstab Leaf once they reach Tahra, but he didn't. Something must have stopped him. The only meaningful interaction he has after 2x is with Pahn, so Pahn must have stopped him. He's a hero!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 hours ago, Darros said:

Even if that wasn't the reason why - it's still official content that's in the game. You can't just skip it and pretend it never happened.

I feel like this could work as a counter to people defending FE14 by saying the story and support conversations are skippable.

Edited by Gruntagen
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 5/21/2017 at 5:09 AM, Baldrick said:

Lifis was planning to backstab Leaf once they reach Tahra, but he didn't. Something must have stopped him. The only meaningful interaction he has after 2x is with Pahn, so Pahn must have stopped him. He's a hero!

 

agreed

 

On 5/18/2017 at 11:52 PM, Gruntagen said:

Pardon me for asking and/or if this sounds utterly retarded, but what are you referring to with "pacing"? You've recently made mention to it regarding Olwen's character progression, and before you referenced it in regard to Celice's fight with Yurius and the Loptyr Cult, saying that Generation 2 was a story of "a boxer getting wailed on for eight rounds and losing conclusively and hanging on by a thread of his life and then in the last seconds of the eighth round he swings his first punch that connects solidly and it happens to knock his opponent right out." Would it be a problem to explain this, maybe give examples from FE14 like you did with support convo progression?

 

i'd be happy to explain it, but it'll take me a bit to actually type up to any reasonable extent

 

(sorry for the silence, had a weird few days IRL, dedicated update typing time has been going to an update though, it's forthcoming)

 

EDIT: oh i missed something i meant to respond to

On 5/18/2017 at 11:33 PM, Baldrick said:

In this particular example, Ronan presumably can't beat Lifis alone so attaches himself to a passing militia because it's the only action he can take. But I agree it's sloppily handled because he doesn't say anything even when Lifis is captured.

nah, what i was getting at was that ronan "doesn't want to live in fear of lifis anymore", implying that lifis has been terrorizing the place for a while, but for some reason exactly now his dude is just saying fuck it and burning the whole place to the ground.

 

granted, that some reason could just be game limitations - the villages "burning down" is just a symbol of them getting raided and the villagers hate you now, like every other villager whose kids you don't randomly save, but it seems like significant escalation out of nowhere.

Edited by Integrity
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...