Leo and Takumi as the protagonists of Fire Emblem Fates

[Dolphin]

So I saw some discussions on /r/fireemblem and GameFAQs if Leo should have been the protag of Conquest and Takumi as the protag of Birthright. I think it would be interesting to see the opinions of this forum on the matter.

Personally, I don't think Leo should have been the protag of Conquest for reasons that I'm too lazy to explain. However, I think it would be cool if Takumi was the protag of Birthright.

Edited May 10, 2016 by Dolphin

[Xenomata]

They would have been more interesting choices as the protag as opposed to generic "universally awesome and/or liked protagonist" character #infinity.

I mean, they both seem to have inferiority issues when being compared to their siblings, but especially in comparison to the Avatar in some cases. What would they have been like if there WERE no Avatar to compare to?

Ryoma and Xander would have most certainly followed the same path that the lord characters of past games would follow. Sakura and Elise would make for interesting protags in terms of their starting class, but as characters? Don't ask me.

Hinoka and Camilla are characters who seem really built around Avatar worship, so I don't know what they would be like without them around...

[spoiler=Fan rambling]

What I feel would make the most interesting protagonist is someone who is, by all accounts, a normal person who is being roped into bigger problems by some outside force.

The way it's usually been going in my mind is that they were forcibly sent into the present day (our time), but were summoned back to their original time and forgot ever living in the future (kinda combining the Deeprealms of Fates and the children going back in time in Awakening), and tried to live normally and developing combat training, before getting roped into... whatever the superbig conflict is in the game.

...I mean, in my mind it all ends with the protag developing the mindset of belief in their uselessness and trying to kill the big bad guy themselves so nobody else has to die trying to do so, even going as far as to attack their army with magically created clones of the army (they're a mage in my mind) to force them to abandon him, but hey maybe it's more interesting than "a lord who fights for his country". I dunno, I'm a little wonkey in the head...

Edited May 10, 2016 by Xenomata

[Res]

I think the reason why both characters work as well as they do is because they aren't the protagonist.

When playing a game of this type, a good majority of players are going to impose something of themselves upon the player character - I think that's only natural. Leo and Takumi are well-defined, strong-enough characters that playing as them would have necessitated removing all decision making from the game.

[Kurrin]

If Takumi and Leo were protagonists of Birthright and Conquest, respectively, would that make the two of them dual protagonists of Revelation? THEORETICAL LEOKUMI CONFIRMED!

While it would be interesting for Takumi and Leo to be protagonists of their respective routes, I don't exactly know how they would link the two routes together. Corrin is the protagonist because of his connection to both routes. Maybe if they both had more pronounced roles in their own routes (since they oddly have more importance in their opposite paths than their actual path) than that would make more sense. Although the two of them have some of the most development of the royals period. In comparison to the others, they've got a pretty good chunk of importance already.

[Duke of Dozel]

Leo's too admired and praised in the game as the country's best mage. He's also not short for confidence. Takumi seems like the best choice for a protagonist role because of his insecurities and his determination to improve. Ryoma and Xander both could work in a Sigurd kinda way.

[Lanko]

Ryoma and Xander would be fine in a Chrom type of role and Corrin acting like Robin. But here it happened the opposite, being worse because Corrin has absolutely no reason, power or wisdom to be in that role in detriment to his older siblings.

[saisymbolic]

I wouldn't mind Leo or Takumi as protagonists. However, they wouldn't fit the story as it is now because, as someone said above, Kamui is the only character that links all the paths together.

Takumi would be interesting to see because, through his journey, you could see him overcome his inferiority complex and mature. Leo could possibly be somewhat similar; he does have inferiority issues in concerns with Xander and he does have some issues with Camilla (though it stems more from her being a Corrinmui D-rider). While he is the more grounded and confident of the younger brother duo, maybe place him in a situation that strips him of his power; place him in a situation that is out of his comfort zone? I don't know.

But, yeah, it would be cool but they wouldn't fit as protags with how the story is structured currently.

Edited May 11, 2016 by SaiSymbolic

[Augestein]

Sakura for Birthright. She's nice enough to recruit people and learn to become a leader without being the best.

Leo is fine, because Camilla and Xander have enough authority over him to have him be a gopher.

[Time the Crestfallen]

Ryoma (Birthright), Xander (Conquest) and Azura (Revelation) as Kirk, Corrin as McCoy and then Leo and Takumi as Spock?

I can't really see either of them working as the sole protagonist of the story, but as part of a power trio it might work.

Edited May 11, 2016 by Phillius

[Blade]

Making the royal siblings the protagonists in their respective routes seems like a great a idea on paper. I would love to have Leo and Takumi being the protagonists instead of Corn, but it would make the mess known as Fates' story fall apart however. Corrin is the glue that holds everything in place because everything kisses up to the avatar, and some characters and plot points depend on the avatar. Since the avatar isn't the star of the show, it inadvertedly removes the thing that Fates have been pushing the whole time; the choice.

It's nice to have a set protagonist other than a customizable avatar where everyone kisses up to you every second, but it would require the story to be rewritten from square one.

[Res]

There's another reason I wouldn't want them both as the protagonists - they're both male. Gaming already has a lack of decent female protagonists, and even in games that offer choices, the male avatar is usually the one that's more heavily promoted in official merchandise. One thing I've really appreciated about Fates is that both male & female Corrin are given equal treatment - posters, game covers, the buttons that came with the official soundtrack - they all have both Corrins. It's been refreshing to see.

[Book Bro]

I think Leo would make a good protagonist. He is relatable enough even if he's not the cheeriest lord, and he actually has drive that Kamui lacks, so we could actually get the "reform Nohr" story with him as the lead. Xander I feel is a better fit as a Camus that stays loyal to Garon once Leo and sisters rebel and only joins you after you beat him and some serious shit goes down.

Birthright is a bit harder to imagine with Takumi but I think he makes more sense as the main character than Ryoma or his sisters. Although Hinoka could work too with some work. I haven't really thought as much about how Birthright could be improved tbh.

[blah the Prussian]

Both would make much better protagonists than what we got. Leo is smart, strategic, and amazingly suited to be a leader. Takumi has a lot of issues to work through which would make for an interesting character arc, from his racism to his confidence issues.

[Res]

Leo is smart and strategic but those two qualities alone do not make a leader. He's also arrogant and a little unworldly, plus he's not without his own insecurities. He's a fairly typical young adult in that regard. His ending in Birthright works better than it would have in the Conquest route because he undergoes a little more development in Birthright.

In some ways Takumi comes across as a well more-rounded character, if you read all his supports in Birthright. He has the anxiety/confidence issues for sure, but he's otherwise well-grounded. I personally don't think he's racist - prejudiced (with good reason), but not racist. But I subscribe to the definition of racism as prejudice + power; in Fates, Nohr is the dominant, invasive power.

[blah the Prussian]

Leo is smart and strategic but those two qualities alone do not make a leader. He's also arrogant and a little unworldly, plus he's not without his own insecurities. He's a fairly typical young adult in that regard. His ending in Birthright works better than it would have in the Conquest route because he undergoes a little more development in Birthright.

In some ways Takumi comes across as a well more-rounded character, if you read all his supports in Birthright. He has the anxiety/confidence issues for sure, but he's otherwise well-grounded. I personally don't think he's racist - prejudiced (with good reason), but not racist. But I subscribe to the definition of racism as prejudice + power; in Fates, Nohr is the dominant, invasive power.

So then is Takumi racist when Hoshido occupies Nohr? Because then they totally have power. Invading also doesn't necessarily mean dominant. Imperial Japan was racist towards Whites among others, and had power over them, but the US also had power over some Japanese. Who then was the group in power? In BR the majority of the game is a counter invasion of Nohr, and one of the reasons Nohr invades is due to famine. Are they really the ones with the power then?

[Res]

In Birthright, Nohr is still the instigating force. The Hoshidan forces are reacting to Nohr's invasion. Also, although Nohrians are no doubt motivated to fight due to the famines, this isn't the reason to invade given by Garon - who is ultimately giving the orders.

We aren't given too much information on the world of Fates, but to call Takumi racist I'd expect a long history of Hoshido dominating and suppressing Nohr. Also, the power balance wouldn't shift so dramatically - even though Hoshido triumphs at the end of Birthright, it would take years to undo Nohr's legacy.

Japan's an interesting example - not sure what the answer is myself, honestly. Racism is usually talked about in the context of global domination. I'd probably say they were xenophobic or prejudiced - not racist.

[blah the Prussian]

In Birthright, Nohr is still the instigating force. The Hoshidan forces are reacting to Nohr's invasion. Also, although Nohrians are no doubt motivated to fight due to the famines, this isn't the reason to invade given by Garon - who is ultimately giving the orders.

We aren't given too much information on the world of Fates, but to call Takumi racist I'd expect a long history of Hoshido dominating and suppressing Nohr. Also, the power balance wouldn't shift so dramatically - even though Hoshido triumphs at the end of Birthright, it would take years to undo Nohr's legacy.

Japan's an interesting example - not sure what the answer is myself, honestly. Racism is usually talked about in the context of global domination. I'd probably say they were xenophobic or prejudiced - not racist.

Then what about the Bataan Death March, or the Burma Road? Or the countless white British, Dutch, French, and some American women who were taken as sex slaves?

[Thane]

I think the reason why both characters work as well as they do is because they aren't the protagonist.

When playing a game of this type, a good majority of players are going to impose something of themselves upon the player character - I think that's only natural. Leo and Takumi are well-defined, strong-enough characters that playing as them would have necessitated removing all decision making from the game.

I'd assume the idea is that the core of Takumi and Leo are kept intact, otherwise this wouldn't be much of a discussion. I don't see why people couldn't "impose something of themselves upon the player character" if it isn't a customizable avatar; that has never stopped people before. Don't get me wrong, I understand where you're coming from, but if you take the quickest of glances at places where the Fire Emblem fandom gather, you'll see that a lot of people are discussing their headcanons for well-established characters. Meanwhile - and this is just my impression - Corrin is largely forgotten or just made fun of.

As for the question at hand, yes, I'd like to Leo and Takumi as main characters instead of Corrin. They'd work nicely as foils to each other and their personalities are far more intriguing than Corrin's. It's a waste of the brilliant setting, but as many would agree, the game failed to do anything worthwhile with it, and as such I'd gladly substitute Corrin for almost anyone else.

[tuvarkz]

In Birthright, Nohr is still the instigating force. The Hoshidan forces are reacting to Nohr's invasion. Also, although Nohrians are no doubt motivated to fight due to the famines, this isn't the reason to invade given by Garon - who is ultimately giving the orders.

We aren't given too much information on the world of Fates, but to call Takumi racist I'd expect a long history of Hoshido dominating and suppressing Nohr. Also, the power balance wouldn't shift so dramatically - even though Hoshido triumphs at the end of Birthright, it would take years to undo Nohr's legacy.

Japan's an interesting example - not sure what the answer is myself, honestly. Racism is usually talked about in the context of global domination. I'd probably say they were xenophobic or prejudiced - not racist.

It's prejudice based on "race" (as loosely as the term applies in this case or to humans in general)-it's racism.

[Based Goomy]

I imagine Elise should have been the protagonist in Conquest, due to her pacifist nature. Granted the Avatar is also this way, but people would be more bound to listen to a pure-of-heart young girl trying to tell you to stop fighting rather than the main reason for this feud.

[Namarid]

I would love it if takumi and Leo were the lords of their respective games. On top of having great characters the prf weapons wouldn't be the standard sword(based Leo using a tome).

If this was the case if would be interesting to see how they would develop.

[Azure Sen]

I don't think Leo and Takumi, as much as I like them, would make good protagonists of Fates as the story is right now. Not only does that undermine the premise not that IntSys needs any help with that, but I don't think they have the charisma or heroic linage that older lords like Seliph had that would make them feasible as leaders of their respective nations' armies, nor do they have the connection that Corrin has to both sides that would allow them to bring Hoshido and Nohr together. I do think they would be perfect viewpoint characters and protagonists if the premise of Fates had been something like seeing both sides of the same war through the eyes of two individuals participating, instead of the course of the war being drastically different depending on who you choose to side with.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

I don't think Leo and Takumi, as much as I like them, would make good protagonists of Fates as the story is right now. Not only does that undermine the premise not that IntSys needs any help with that, but I don't think they have the charisma or heroic linage that older lords like Seliph had that would make them feasible as leaders of their respective nations' armies, nor do they have the connection that Corrin has to both sides that would allow them to bring Hoshido and Nohr together. I do think they would be perfect viewpoint characters and protagonists if the premise of Fates had been something like seeing both sides of the same war through the eyes of two individuals participating, instead of the course of the war being drastically different depending on who you choose to side with.

Yeah this is true. The main reason that Corrin on Conquest fails as a protagonist is more related to how IS wanted Corrin do some Dark stuff, but decided to not commit about it in characterization imo. This resulted in the current version of Corrin who despite doing some dark stuff, isn't aknowledged, or think of himself as one which make him very despicable and delusional.

While this problem won't shows up in Leo as it stands now, Leo did not have the means of being relevant towards Hoshido and Nohr.

[Res]

Then what about the Bataan Death March, or the Burma Road? Or the countless white British, Dutch, French, and some American women who were taken as sex slaves?

War crimes? It gets a little murky talking about racism in war time, since every country at war is busy being shitty.

I'd assume the idea is that the core of Takumi and Leo are kept intact, otherwise this wouldn't be much of a discussion. I don't see why people couldn't "impose something of themselves upon the player character" if it isn't a customizable avatar; that has never stopped people before. Don't get me wrong, I understand where you're coming from, but if you take the quickest of glances at places where the Fire Emblem fandom gather, you'll see that a lot of people are discussing their headcanons for well-established characters. Meanwhile - and this is just my impression - Corrin is largely forgotten or just made fun of.

Ha, that's true about the fandom.

And I'm no fan of Corrin - especially on the Conquest route - I just think they still work better as a protagonist than Leo/Takumi would.

Although now I'm starting to wonder how Leo/Takumi would be perceived by fans if they were the protagonists. A considerable number of fans love to hate Takumi, for example. And Leo is held in somewhat high regard, but would that change if, for example, in Conquest when:

You're given the choice of whether to execute or spare Shura? This is an example of a choice that'd probably be taken away if you were to stick true to Leo's character, since he's all for executing Shura without hesitation.

It's prejudice based on "race" (as loosely as the term applies in this case or to humans in general)-it's racism.

Racism as a word carries such a heavier connotation than saying racial prejudice, though.

Put it this way - I'm of the opinion that calling Takumi racist for insulting the Nohrians and for wishing to avenge his parents' deaths (because he has every right to be angry at the Nohrians) trivializes the actual and very serious effects that racism, especially systemic racism, continues to have on many people's lives.

[Thane]

Ha, that's true about the fandom.

And I'm no fan of Corrin - especially on the Conquest route - I just think they still work better as a protagonist than Leo/Takumi would.

Although now I'm starting to wonder how Leo/Takumi would be perceived by fans if they were the protagonists. A considerable number of fans love to hate Takumi, for example. And Leo is held in somewhat high regard, but would that change if, for example, in Conquest when:

I don't want to jump to conclusions, but it sounds as if you think Corrin works better as a protagonist because the plot is tailor-made for him; I'd assume certain things would change, or else, again, we wouldn't have much to discuss. Takumi and Leo being generals in a war that actually has a reason behind it could be very interesting, and since they're not customizable, I'd hope Intelligent Systems wouldn't be as afraid to actually make them firmly established characters, in contrast to the dry piece of cardboard that is Corrin.