Micaiah vs. Nohr Corrin (spoilers)

[BruceLee]

Hey, now you're getting it!

The duality of Sothe and Micaiah's relationship is that Sothe sees things from a simplistic, moralist viewpoint (which is still useful to keep Micaiah's morality in check) without regard to political realities and Micaiah sees things primarily through her obligations to her country. Sothe can tell her what she's doing is wrong but he can't tell her an alternative either, which is why Micaiah laments she's not capable of acting on her feelings.

Bullshit. Sothe sees it for what any sane person would see it as, and so should Micaiah, if she's sane.

You keep saying it's obligation bla bla bla, i don't give a shit. If i'm the leader of a group and my obligation is suddenly to do some fucked up shit then i'm out. If i stay, then people have the right to call me out for the fucked up shit i do.

Edited May 18, 2016 by BruceLee

[NekoKnight]

Bullshit. Sothe sees it for what any sane person would see it as, and so should Micaiah, if she's sane.

You keep saying it's obligation bla bla bla, i don't give a shit. If i'm the leader of a group and my obligation is suddenly to do some fucked up shit then i'm out. If i stay, then people have the right to call me out for the fucked up shit i do.

So, what? She should refuse the order? Abandon her post? Usurp the throne? Do you think any of these things are going to end well for her?

[BruceLee]

So, what? She should refuse the order? Abandon her post? Usurp the throne? Do you think any of these things are going to end well for her?

Yes, she should refuse the fucking order. -_-

Am i really expecting too much from Micaiah when i don't want her to go hunting with her sub-human hunting buddies? -_-

[Water Mage]

Bullshit. Sothe sees it for what any sane person would see it as, and so should Micaiah, if she's sane.

You keep saying it's obligation bla bla bla, i don't give a shit. If i'm the leader of a group and my obligation is suddenly to do some fucked up shit then i'm out. If i stay, then people have the right to call me out for the fucked up shit i do.

If I may intervene,

That's the whole point of obligation, having to do something you don't like, but not having the option of backing out.

Micaiah didn't have the choice of backing out, unless she risks what she fought to restore.

She couldn't simply get out. It's not that simple.

Remember her role.

Edited May 18, 2016 by Water Mage

[NekoKnight]

Yes, she should refuse the fucking order. -_-

Am i really expecting too much from Micaiah when i don't want her to go hunting with her sub-human hunting buddies? -_-

Okay, now she has refused the order and Begnion is pissed. Not only has she pissed off the most powerful country on the continent, she has undermined the authority of her king, doubtlessly bringing more chaos to the currently vulnerable Daein.

BAD END, would you like to load the game at your last save point?

[BruceLee]

If I may intervene,

That's the whole point of obligation, having to do something you don't like, but not having the option of backing out.

Micaiah didn't have the choice of backing out, unless she risks the what she fought to restore.

She couldn't simply get out. It's not that simple.

Remember her role.

You'd have a point if she was fighting for something meaningful, but she's not. All she knows is she's attacking the laguz alliance, that Pelleas is a fan of Izuka, and that her soldiers are excited about hunting the sub-humans.

Edited May 18, 2016 by BruceLee

[Sunwoo]

I see a lot of argument on Micaiah and her decisions in this thread, which … wasn't exactly the direction I was thinking it would go in.

But as far as I'm concerned, that's what makes Micaiah better than Corrin. As divisive as some of her actions may be, the game itself does not tell us whether she's wrong or right. Rather, we're allowed to make our own decisions of her actions. Corrin did things that were just as bad as, if not worse than, what Micaiah had to do over the course of RD. But the game itself can't even tell us that because the entire narrative is twisted around protecting Corrin from criticism. Micaiah is a more interesting character to dissect and discuss, as is Daein as a nation over Nohr.

EDIT: BruceLee, while I'm not saying you're wrong for disliking Micaiah, your viewpoint on how politics in the real world work are hopelessly limited. I don't think you understand how complicated stupid political things can get.

Edited May 18, 2016 by Sunwoo

[Shotguner159]

Yes, she should refuse the fucking order. -_-

Am i really expecting too much from Micaiah when i don't want her to go hunting with her sub-human hunting buddies? -_-

Yes, because it isn't a sub-human hunt, it's a legitmate military campaign. Daein did not go "LOL we hate the sub-humans, let's go attack them!", Begnion asked for aid, and Daein elected to respond. The attitudes of Daein's soldiers towards enemy Laguz is irrelevant, since they're just as happy fighting the predominately Beorc-comprised Apostle's Army.

And also because Daein would collapse as a country if she didn't.

Edited May 18, 2016 by Shotguner159

[Water Mage]

You'd have a point if she was fighting for something meaningful, but she's not. All she knows is she's attacking the laguz alliance, that Pelleas is a fan of Izuka, and that her soldiers are excited about hunting the sub-humans.

Again, that's the point of obligations.

An obligation isn't supposed to be the right thing to do or supposed to be meaningful. An obligation is what you have to do. Nothing more, nothing less.

Think about it for second.

What would be the consequences of Micaiah refusing to obey Pelleas's order?

Are they worth it?

[Book Bro]

Bullshit. Sothe sees it for what any sane person would see it as, and so should Micaiah, if she's sane.

You keep saying it's obligation bla bla bla, i don't give a shit. If i'm the leader of a group and my obligation is suddenly to do some fucked up shit then i'm out. If i stay, then people have the right to call me out for the fucked up shit i do.

This part I agree with. It IS fucked up, but I think the game is clear on that. Micaiah isn't portrayed as being absolutely righteous during part 3. That's the whole point. The game tells us why she's doing what she does, and how she justifies it in her mind, but it doesn't tell us we have to agree or think that's the best option. I can understand her actions while not necessarily agreeing with them 100%.

To get back to the original topic, that's totally unlike Kamui in Conquest, where the game says "the fucked up thing is how those misguided Hoshidans don't listen to poor Kamui!" Conquest shows us Kamui doing fucked up things too, but tries to tell us they're actually noble and we should see Kamui as a saviour of Hoshido.

[NekoKnight]

I see a lot of argument on Micaiah and her decisions in this thread, which … wasn't exactly the direction I was thinking it would go in.

But as far as I'm concerned, that's what makes Micaiah better than Corrin. As divisive as some of her actions may be, the game itself does not tell us whether she's wrong or right. Rather, we're allowed to make our own decisions of her actions. Corrin did things that were just as bad as, if not worse than, what Micaiah had to do over the course of RD. But the game itself can't even tell us that because the entire narrative is twisted around protecting Corrin from criticism. Micaiah is a more interesting character to dissect and discuss, as is Daein as a nation over Nohr.

EDIT: BruceLee, while I'm not saying you're wrong for disliking Micaiah, your viewpoint on how politics in the real world work are hopelessly limited. I don't think you understand how complicated stupid political things can get.

Most of the comparisons between Micaiah and Kamui were on the earlier pages (bear in mind a lot of the Kamui discussion is in the Robin vs Kamui thread). Most people are in agreement that Kamui's actions in Conquest were horrible, what's being debated now is if Micaiah's actions were horrible or justified.

Apart from not being allowed to reach our own conclusions on the morality of our characters, Kamui is a weaker example of this kind of story because unlike Micaiah, we're never give many reasons for why Kamui would support his adopted country. In Nohr, most of the upper brass are horrible people and Kamui appears to have had very little interaction with anyone besides his siblings and household. Micaiah came to love the general populace of Daein (despite their flaws) but Kamui is apparently fighting for just a handful of people. Nohr doesn't need to invade Hoshido to survive (there is the food issue but that's not even mentioned in Conquest iirc) but Micaiah does need to do bad things to ensure Daein survives.

Edited May 18, 2016 by NekoKnight

[BruceLee]

The attitudes of Daein's soldiers towards enemy Laguz is irrelevant, since they're just as happy fighting the predominately Beorc-comprised Apostle's Army.

No, they were not.

What would be the consequences of Micaiah refusing to obey Pelleas's order?

At the worst, collapse of Daein?

Are they worth it?

Yes.

[Water Mage]

At the worst, collapse of Daein?

Yes.

Is it really?

Is the collapse of the country she loves really worth it?

Do you honestly think that after fighting so hard for Daein's freedom, and becoming a saint figure, she can just say "Fuck it, I'm out" when the king gives an order she doesn't like?

[Azure Sen]

At the worst, collapse of Daein?

Considering the fact that Lekain was considering invoking the blood pact just because Micaiah's forces failed to capture Sanaki and the fact that the blood pact exists at all, the worst thing in this case would be every person from Daein being exterminated.

[Shotguner159]

No, they were not.

At the worst, collapse of Daein?

Yes.

Yes they were. The Daein army's morale remained just as high when fighting on Oribes Bridge, and when confronting the Apostle's Army in the southern mountains, as it was when fighting the Laguz in Begnion.

And Micaiah, a woman who fought to break her country free from oppression, and spent so much time rebuilding it that she didn't return to her place of residence, should think that because the citizens are racist towards Laguz, the country doesn't deserve to exist?

Considering the fact that Lekain was considering invoking the blood pact just because Micaiah's forces failed to capture Sanaki and the fact that the blood pact exists at all, the worst thing in this case would be every person from Daein being exterminated.

Micaiah doesn't know that in 3-6 though.

[Azure Sen]

Micaiah doesn't know that in 3-6 though.

I was just giving it as a potential consequence of what would happen if Micaiah decided to leave Daein, not necessarily a reason why she would decide not to.

[BruceLee]

Is it really?

Is the collapse of the country she loves really worth it?

Do you honestly think that after fighting so hard for Daein's freedom, and becoming a saint figure, she can just say "Fuck it, I'm out" when the king gives an order she doesn't like?

Is it gonna stay at an order if she listens here? Everyone around her is racist, and she's following an order from her racist king(who has a tactician that experiments on and tortures sub-humans, who he likes) to lead the soldiers(who are excited) to hunt sub-humans. Where will it end? Will she accept again when she gets such an order from Pelleas?

And how is she even gonna try to change the racism at the end of this when she herself participates in it.

Considering the fact that Lekain was considering invoking the blood pact just because Micaiah's forces failed to capture Sanaki and the fact that the blood pact exists at all, the worst thing in this case would be every person from Daein being exterminated.

Micaiah doesn't know the blood contract even exists, so it's irrelevant. If she knew about the blood contract when she followed Pelleas' order, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

[Water Mage]

Is it gonna stay at an order if she listens here? Everyone around her is racist, and she's following an order from her racist king(who has a tactician that experiments on and tortures sub-humans, who he likes) to lead the soldiers(who are excited) to hunt sub-humans. Where will it end? Will she accept again when she gets such an order from Pelleas?

And how is she even gonna try to change the racism at the end of this when she herself participates in it.

Of course it won't stay at an order.

But consider the situation, the country is still reconstructing, is it really the right time to try to stop racism?

Not really, and if she wants to changes thing, she will have to suck up and obey orders she doesn't approve of.

It's not as simple as you are making it out to be.

[saisymbolic]

The thing we have to remember about Daein in concerns with laguz is that a lot of their hate stems from ignorance and propaganda. Jill is the perfect example of this. She spent a good bit of PoR showing hate towards laguz, until he joined the GM and learned different. Yes, there are some in Daein that legitimately hate laguz but to condemn an entire country based on a few is ignorance at its finest.

I'm sure Micaiah doesn't hate laguz. I'm sure she would stop the racism if she could. But, she had more important things to deal with during the events of RD. Does that mean racism is a low priority issue? No, it does not. But, the thing about being a military leader (or being the military in general) is that sometimes you have to sacrifice what you think is best and look at the bigger picture.

What is the point of eradicating laguz racism when your entire country is being oppressed and is literally one word away from being wiped out in its entirety? When the country is gone, what then?

[BruceLee]

Yes they were. The Daein army's morale remained just as high when fighting on Oribes Bridge, and when confronting the Apostle's Army in the southern mountains, as it was when fighting the Laguz in Begnion.

I dont remember it being said the soldiers were excited about hunting the apostle's army.

Of course it won't stay at an order.

But consider the situation, the country is still reconstructing, is it really the right time to try to stop racism?

Not really, and if she wants to changes thing, she will have to suck up and obey orders she doesn't approve of.

It's not as simple as you are making it out to be.

You're going from one extreme to another. So it's either stop racism or participate in what seems like a sub-human hunt?

Obey orders that contradict what she wants to change? You can't plan to change racism and participate in it yourself(in the most extreme way).

[NekoKnight]

At the worst, collapse of Daein?

Apart from that being everything Micaiah wants to avoid and the total defeat of everything she accomplished in part 1, not following her orders would earn Daein the wrath of Begnion that could easily reconquer them, blood pact or no.

I dont remember it being said the soldiers were excited about hunting the apostle's army.

You're going from one extreme to another. So it's either stop racism or participate in what seems like a sub-human hunt?

Obey orders that contradict what she wants to change? You can't plan to change racism and participate in it yourself(in the most extreme way).

Why is it okay for Micaiah to fight the Apostles forces but not okay for them to fight the Laguz forces? Both were ordered by Begnion because they are Begnion's enemies.

[Water Mage]

You're going from one extreme to another. So it's either stop racism or participate in what seems like a sub-human hunt?

Obey orders that contradict what she wants to change? You can't plan to change racism and participate in it yourself(in the most extreme way).

You're forgetting one thing.

Considering the situatuon, it's not racism.

She's fighting another army, who happens to be the target of racists.

Daein is not in the war because of racism.

Daein answering to Beignion's call for aid.

Ergo, she's not participating in racism, she's providing support to another army.

Edited May 18, 2016 by Water Mage

[Baldrick]

Ooh! Ooh! Here's what Pelleas should have said:

Pelleas: What? Guards, arrest this sick fuck, now.

If that did happen, you'd just shift the goalposts again and criticise Pelleas for not having him executed on the spot.

You're forgetting one thing.

Considering the situatuon, it's not racism.

She's fighting another army, who happens to be the target of racists.

Daein is not in the war because of racism.

Daein answering to Beignion's call for aid.

Ergo, she's not participating in racism, she's providing support to another army.

Hypothetically, if it was the CRK instead of the LEA, the soldiers would be just as excited to get revenge on Crimea.

Edited May 19, 2016 by Tricky Drick

[Shotguner159]

I dont remember it being said the soldiers were excited about hunting the apostle's army.

No, but the soldiers morale remained the same, despite the fact that they weren't fighting the race they're racist against, and wouldn't be getting the large bounty they get for killing Laguz.

You're going from one extreme to another. So it's either stop racism or participate in what seems like a sub-human hunt?

Obey orders that contradict what she wants to change? You can't plan to change racism and participate in it yourself(in the most extreme way).

If she wants to change the racist attitudes, there kind of needs to be a country to change the attitudes of. Micaiah thinks that if she doesn't follow Pelleas' orders, the country won't pull together under Pelleas' rule, and that would lead to the collapse of the country. Which is probably true. And she's not participating in racism, she's leading her soldiers against enemy soldiers.

[BruceLee]

Why is it okay for Micaiah to fight the Apostles forces but not okay for them to fight the Laguz forces? Both were ordered by Begnion because they are Begnion's enemies.

When she was fighting the apostle's army she had a good reason to, the blood pact. Against the laguz alliance she doesn't have a good reason, all she can know is that it's fuelled by racism.

You're forgetting one thing.

Considering the situatuon, it's not racism.

She's fighting another army, who happens to be the target of racists.

Daein is not in the war because of racism.

Daein answering to Beignion's call for aid.

Ergo, she's not participating in racism, she's providing support to another army.

A racist group is aiding another racist group against a group they are racist against. It. Is. Racism.