The Absolute Worst Fire Emblem Characters.

[Leonarth]

Have you re-classed her to Archer? From both what I heard from other people, and from what I did, that apparently did wonders for her. I did keep Niles due to his utility with magical bows - if that wasn't the case, I would have benched him with only Mozu using the bows. Plus, with opportunities for Attack Stances and such, I didn't find raising her anywhere near as difficult as with, say, Donnel in Awakening. Or is Lunatic Conquest an entirely different game to Hard/Normal?

I haven't actually reclassed her to Archer (Takumi does wonders already), but I have heard it does work well. I have reclassed her to Dread Fighter before, and she turned out pretty well also. The problem with her base stats is that she rarely can do 1 damage to the faceless, whereas Donnel could do around 3 or 4 (at least in Hard). The problem with Lunatic Conquest is that enemy skills and stats make it hard to get her going without sacrificing EXP for other units who need it also. She will get destroyed on CH. 10 due to how much the game likes to throw at you. I think the big difference in the jump from Hard to Lunatic on Conquest is that Lunatic Conquest tries its hardest at times to royally screw you over. I remember fuming on the Wind Tribe chapter because of the damn Falcon Knights with Armored Blow, and enough speed to double almost everyone. Conquest is very volatile, and Mozu doesn't do well with some of the BS pulled in it.

You clearly haven't seen Donnel's bases if you think that. Donnel is worse than Mozu in every way outside of luck. And he's in a game where the stat inflation is at some of its worst in the series. Mozu cannot be the worst unit in the series by virtue that Donnel is weaker than she is.

I think part of my justification also has to do with how EXP is handled in 13 vs. 14. In Awakening, EXP is at ridiculous levels, meaning Donnel can easily get 2 or 3 kills and be around level 2 or 3 (those archers are easy to corner as well), whereas with the same effort Mozu will probably only be level 2 at best. Part of my argument also comes from the fact of where your EXP is better spent. It is ridiculously easy to over-level a couple of units in Awakening, but Fates shuts down that shit very quickly. So Mozu will probably be stuck at the same level as everyone else with those god awful bases, while Donnel flourishes by being able to easily level past everyone else to keep his stats going. Awakening's stat inflation is another topic on its own, but the fact that Donnel with Aptitude can easily level up most of his important stats consistently means that as long as you keep him going, he should be fine quite quickly. Mozu's growths, even with her version of Aptitude, are not going to achieve the same thing though, as Donnel's base growths are the same as her growths with Aptitude. So yeah, even though there is the uphill battle with Stat Inflation, Donnel will at least make it through it.

Yeah, no. Once again, she can actually survive her chapter without Dual Guard (Not played Lunatic/Hard, so likely wrong on those), which Donnel struggles to do on NORMAL.

And she at least has the decency to promote from Villager.

Yeah, she can survive with Dual Guard, but why bother? Also, yeah she can promote from villager, but that also is a hindrance. Fates and Awakening treat their reclassing way differently, with Fates making it more a "suit your class to the situation" while Awakening makes it "learn new abilities and grow even stronger". This key difference makes it so that Donnel will thrive while Mozu will struggle.

I think my biggest problem with the argument that Donnel is worse than Mozu is that Donnel starts crap, but Awakening's system allows him to surpass everyone else. Mozu starts crap, and her system is specifically designed so that she won't be able to go much farther than everyone else. While Est-types are certainly usable, the point is that their bases are supposed to be usable for when you get them, and their growths will carry them the rest of the way. Mozu isn't really any better than anyone else (who isn't Gunter) when it comes to growth rates, and Aptitude barely does anything to solve the issue.

At the end of the day, I think Mozu is bad because she got thrown into a system designed to prevent the exact thing she was designed to do: get good level ups and get a lot of them. Sure, she starts better than Donnel, but Donnel will always surpass her.

[Shadow Mir]

I haven't actually reclassed her to Archer (Takumi does wonders already), but I have heard it does work well. I have reclassed her to Dread Fighter before, and she turned out pretty well also. The problem with her base stats is that she rarely can do 1 damage to the faceless, whereas Donnel could do around 3 or 4 (at least in Hard). The problem with Lunatic Conquest is that enemy skills and stats make it hard to get her going without sacrificing EXP for other units who need it also. She will get destroyed on CH. 10 due to how much the game likes to throw at you. I think the big difference in the jump from Hard to Lunatic on Conquest is that Lunatic Conquest tries its hardest at times to royally screw you over. I remember fuming on the Wind Tribe chapter because of the damn Falcon Knights with Armored Blow, and enough speed to double almost everyone. Conquest is very volatile, and Mozu doesn't do well with some of the BS pulled in it.

I think part of my justification also has to do with how EXP is handled in 13 vs. 14. In Awakening, EXP is at ridiculous levels, meaning Donnel can easily get 2 or 3 kills and be around level 2 or 3 (those archers are easy to corner as well), whereas with the same effort Mozu will probably only be level 2 at best. Part of my argument also comes from the fact of where your EXP is better spent. It is ridiculously easy to over-level a couple of units in Awakening, but Fates shuts down that shit very quickly. So Mozu will probably be stuck at the same level as everyone else with those god awful bases, while Donnel flourishes by being able to easily level past everyone else to keep his stats going. Awakening's stat inflation is another topic on its own, but the fact that Donnel with Aptitude can easily level up most of his important stats consistently means that as long as you keep him going, he should be fine quite quickly. Mozu's growths, even with her version of Aptitude, are not going to achieve the same thing though, as Donnel's base growths are the same as her growths with Aptitude. So yeah, even though there is the uphill battle with Stat Inflation, Donnel will at least make it through it.

Yeah, she can survive with Dual Guard, but why bother? Also, yeah she can promote from villager, but that also is a hindrance. Fates and Awakening treat their reclassing way differently, with Fates making it more a "suit your class to the situation" while Awakening makes it "learn new abilities and grow even stronger". This key difference makes it so that Donnel will thrive while Mozu will struggle.

I think my biggest problem with the argument that Donnel is worse than Mozu is that Donnel starts crap, but Awakening's system allows him to surpass everyone else. Mozu starts crap, and her system is specifically designed so that she won't be able to go much farther than everyone else. While Est-types are certainly usable, the point is that their bases are supposed to be usable for when you get them, and their growths will carry them the rest of the way. Mozu isn't really any better than anyone else (who isn't Gunter) when it comes to growth rates, and Aptitude barely does anything to solve the issue.

At the end of the day, I think Mozu is bad because she got thrown into a system designed to prevent the exact thing she was designed to do: get good level ups and get a lot of them. Sure, she starts better than Donnel, but Donnel will always surpass her.

TBH, I still found Mozu easier to work with because...

1) she can Heart Seal immediately, as opposed to Donnel who has to go through at least 9 levels of Villager before he can reclass;

2) she actually gets to retain her weapon ranks, unlike Donnel, who winds up having to fight his way out of bronze lock AGAIN after the reclass;

3) Donnel's virtually unviable on Lunatic (have fun trying to train him when he dies if he misses!)

Edited December 18, 2016 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Leonarth]

TBH, I still found Mozu easier to work with because...

1) she can Heart Seal immediately, as opposed to Donnel who has to go through at least 9 levels of Villager before he can reclass;

2) she actually gets to retain her weapon ranks, unlike Donnel, who winds up having to fight his way out of bronze lock AGAIN after the reclass;

3) Donnel's all but unviable on Lunatic (have fun trying to train him when he dies if he misses!)

Yeah, I have had an easier time training Mozu, I just think that she gets screwed over because of how Fates treats EXP gains when you start over-leveling. Also, using Donnel on Lunatic is probably a bad idea as is, since Awakening Lunatic inflates enemy stats to absurd levels if I remember correctly. Fates really just starts giving weapon ranks and skills when you go from Hard to Lunatic, and I think it did get that much right when it came to difficulty at least.

[Augestein]

I think part of my justification also has to do with how EXP is handled in 13 vs. 14. In Awakening, EXP is at ridiculous levels, meaning Donnel can easily get 2 or 3 kills and be around level 2 or 3 (those archers are easy to corner as well), whereas with the same effort Mozu will probably only be level 2 at best. Part of my argument also comes from the fact of where your EXP is better spent. It is ridiculously easy to over-level a couple of units in Awakening, but Fates shuts down that shit very quickly. So Mozu will probably be stuck at the same level as everyone else with those god awful bases, while Donnel flourishes by being able to easily level past everyone else to keep his stats going. Awakening's stat inflation is another topic on its own, but the fact that Donnel with Aptitude can easily level up most of his important stats consistently means that as long as you keep him going, he should be fine quite quickly. Mozu's growths, even with her version of Aptitude, are not going to achieve the same thing though, as Donnel's base growths are the same as her growths with Aptitude. So yeah, even though there is the uphill battle with Stat Inflation, Donnel will at least make it through it.

One level from Mozu still leaves her in a better spot than Donnel leveling twice. She starts out better at base, so she doesn't need to have his base growths on the account that Mozu can actually take a hit or two before dying. The fact that Fates shuts down shoving EXP in one unit is a good thing. That means it's even easier to level Mozu on the account that it's not viable to stuff a bunch of EXP down any particular unit's throat which means that other units are going to be getting diminishing returns.

Since Awakening doesn't have such a system, that means that all of the other units that appear are going to be able to just cruise passed Donnel and continue to level at the same stupid rate that Donnel does. The difference? None of them actually had a moment of sucking like Donnel.

Meanwhile Mozu exists in a world where she can immediately become an archer, get +4 damage on player phase, 100% dual strike with units, gain EXP through reliable dual guards, or even just plain level out of Villager and become a master of arms without losing any weapon ranks.

I've used Mozu in Fates even in Lunatic without too many problems. Meanwhile in Awakening you have to do things like trap archers and have Donnel poke them so he can stand a chance in other chapters. It's simply not worth it.

[Punished Dayni]

Yeah, she can survive with Dual Guard, but why bother? Also, yeah she can promote from villager, but that also is a hindrance. Fates and Awakening treat their reclassing way differently, with Fates making it more a "suit your class to the situation" while Awakening makes it "learn new abilities and grow even stronger". This key difference makes it so that Donnel will thrive while Mozu will struggle.

I think my biggest problem with the argument that Donnel is worse than Mozu is that Donnel starts crap, but Awakening's system allows him to surpass everyone else. Mozu starts crap, and her system is specifically designed so that she won't be able to go much farther than everyone else. While Est-types are certainly usable, the point is that their bases are supposed to be usable for when you get them, and their growths will carry them the rest of the way. Mozu isn't really any better than anyone else (who isn't Gunter) when it comes to growth rates, and Aptitude barely does anything to solve the issue.

At the end of the day, I think Mozu is bad because she got thrown into a system designed to prevent the exact thing she was designed to do: get good level ups and get a lot of them. Sure, she starts better than Donnel, but Donnel will always surpass her.

Dual Guard? I meant Dual Strike! She's actually able to give out damage right away, and she'll be better off after a couple of levels than Donnel would be. As someone who's played Awakening enough that I should probably be boo'd, he is a nightmare to get started, which Mozu doesn't have the same issue as for even lower difficulties. And at least she uses Lances in other classes. And arguing about promotion systems doesn't change that Donnel needs to be shoved exp for at least 14 levels before he gets good. Awakening also works with different caps, but that doesn't change that Donnel need more to get to that point than Mozu would.

Irregardless of thinking of Mozu as bad, saying she's worse than Donnel doesn't add up.

[Leonarth]

Dual Guard? I meant Dual Strike! She's actually able to give out damage right away, and she'll be better off after a couple of levels than Donnel would be. As someone who's played Awakening enough that I should probably be boo'd, he is a nightmare to get started, which Mozu doesn't have the same issue as for even lower difficulties. And at least she uses Lances in other classes. And arguing about promotion systems doesn't change that Donnel needs to be shoved exp for at least 14 levels before he gets good. Awakening also works with different caps, but that doesn't change that Donnel need more to get to that point than Mozu would.

Irregardless of thinking of Mozu as bad, saying she's worse than Donnel doesn't add up.

Yes, Donnel needs more to get to the same point as Mozu, but he gets there just as fast as her. In general Awakening seems to be more generous with EXP distribution, in my experience anyway, so Donnel will be ahead of Mozu in terms of pure level, but they'll probably have similar stats. One thing Donnel has over Mozu is that if they both could use more room to grow, Second Seals are WAY cheaper than Eternal Seals, especially since the likelihood of them capping more than maybe one stat is not very good.

I suppose it comes down to preference in a way. Mozu has better bases, this can't be denied, but Donnel has better growths. Mozu doesn't need as much babying to get going, whereas Donnel needs to be spoon fed for quite a while before he can handle himself. Part of why I prefer Donnel is also because Donnel's growths with Aptitude are above and beyond most of the cast, with only the Manaketes and maybe some of the children surpassing him. Mozu with Aptitude only really comes close to rivaling the Royals at most. I'll definitely concede that Mozu isn't the worst unit by far, I just question why so many people call her one of the best units in the game, especially when she really only will end up as good as everyone else in the end.

Also, may I mention how much Takumi overshadows all the other possible Archers in the game? He makes it seem like anyone else is just pointless since he'll always outdo them.

[Augestein]

Yes, Donnel needs more to get to the same point as Mozu, but he gets there just as fast as her. In general Awakening seems to be more generous with EXP distribution, in my experience anyway, so Donnel will be ahead of Mozu in terms of pure level, but they'll probably have similar stats. One thing Donnel has over Mozu is that if they both could use more room to grow, Second Seals are WAY cheaper than Eternal Seals, especially since the likelihood of them capping more than maybe one stat is not very good.

I suppose it comes down to preference in a way. Mozu has better bases, this can't be denied, but Donnel has better growths. Mozu doesn't need as much babying to get going, whereas Donnel needs to be spoon fed for quite a while before he can handle himself. Part of why I prefer Donnel is also because Donnel's growths with Aptitude are above and beyond most of the cast, with only the Manaketes and maybe some of the children surpassing him. Mozu with Aptitude only really comes close to rivaling the Royals at most. I'll definitely concede that Mozu isn't the worst unit by far, I just question why so many people call her one of the best units in the game, especially when she really only will end up as good as everyone else in the end.

Also, may I mention how much Takumi overshadows all the other possible Archers in the game? He makes it seem like anyone else is just pointless since he'll always outdo them.

But he doesn't get there as fast as she does. That's the problem. After his paralogue Donnel has to deal with enemies in Lunatic mode that everyone sans Frederick and Robin are kinda afraid to fight, and Donnel is initially less durable than Miriel. That's not even an exaggeration either, Miriel is faster and more durable and she can attack from two range. Eternal Seals might be more expensive, but on a standard playthrough no one is realistically going to need Eternal Seals.

Base stats > Growths. The issue with Awakening is that EXP is so fast that what makes Donnel "easy to raise" makes it readily apparently why... Everyone else around him is easy to raise and without the pain and misery that you get from base Donnel. Again, let's use Miriel to compare. Let's raise them 7 levels. Both will get about 4 points of speed. Donnel leaning in a way where he could have 5 possibly, but not necessarily. So we'll round down for the sake of simplicity. Miriel has 11 speed right now. Donnel will end up having... 7 speed. That's Miriel's base. Even if we give him the benefit of the doubt and give him 5 speed so he has 8, he's still slower than Miriel, still doesn't have 1-2 range like she does, and he still attacks worse than she does on the account that she has better magic than he does strength. He might have finally become more durable than her, but it's not by enough to even matter, because in lower difficulties, the game isn't hard enough to warrant needing these super growths and everyone is doing fine, and in higher difficulties, Donnel is still less durable because everything under the sun is doubling him.

There are several reasons this argument doesn't work. Takumi doesn't exist in Conquest as a playable unit. Having multiple good units is never a bad thing, and if you promoted both to Kinshi Knights, you could have 2 units with Amaterasu (a good ability and well worth having this as much as you can with units. Ever have it with like 4-5? It's awesome, and I'd argue that it's almost gamebreaking to have a huge group of people with it). There are plenty of lance users that you could use over Donnel, and they come with better movement (well, most of them at any rate) and some come with swords to boot. Chrom (second seal), Robin (second seal), Fred, Sully, Kellam, Sumia, Cordelia, and Stahl. Donnel has it far worse.

Like... They made Donnel's bases way too garbage for him to really be good. Now if Donnel came with Mozu's bases? Yeah, I might consider it a bit more. The only issue with Mozu is that she joins with reasonable bases at level 1... When no one else is level 1 anymore.

[Leonarth]

But he doesn't get there as fast as she does. That's the problem. After his paralogue Donnel has to deal with enemies in Lunatic mode that everyone sans Frederick and Robin are kinda afraid to fight, and Donnel is initially less durable than Miriel. That's not even an exaggeration either, Miriel is faster and more durable and she can attack from two range. Eternal Seals might be more expensive, but on a standard playthrough no one is realistically going to need Eternal Seals.

Base stats > Growths. The issue with Awakening is that EXP is so fast that what makes Donnel "easy to raise" makes it readily apparently why... Everyone else around him is easy to raise and without the pain and misery that you get from base Donnel. Again, let's use Miriel to compare. Let's raise them 7 levels. Both will get about 4 points of speed. Donnel leaning in a way where he could have 5 possibly, but not necessarily. So we'll round down for the sake of simplicity. Miriel has 11 speed right now. Donnel will end up having... 7 speed. That's Miriel's base. Even if we give him the benefit of the doubt and give him 5 speed so he has 8, he's still slower than Miriel, still doesn't have 1-2 range like she does, and he still attacks worse than she does on the account that she has better magic than he does strength. He might have finally become more durable than her, but it's not by enough to even matter, because in lower difficulties, the game isn't hard enough to warrant needing these super growths and everyone is doing fine, and in higher difficulties, Donnel is still less durable because everything under the sun is doubling him.

There are several reasons this argument doesn't work. Takumi doesn't exist in Conquest as a playable unit. Having multiple good units is never a bad thing, and if you promoted both to Kinshi Knights, you could have 2 units with Amaterasu (a good ability and well worth having this as much as you can with units. Ever have it with like 4-5? It's awesome, and I'd argue that it's almost gamebreaking to have a huge group of people with it). There are plenty of lance users that you could use over Donnel, and they come with better movement (well, most of them at any rate) and some come with swords to boot. Chrom (second seal), Robin (second seal), Fred, Sully, Kellam, Sumia, Cordelia, and Stahl. Donnel has it far worse.

Like... They made Donnel's bases way too garbage for him to really be good. Now if Donnel came with Mozu's bases? Yeah, I might consider it a bit more. The only issue with Mozu is that she joins with reasonable bases at level 1... When no one else is level 1 anymore.

Using the argument Base stats > Growths, then by that logic neither Mozu nor Donnel should be touched with a 10 foot pole. IIRC Mozu has to replace someone in every path, as there is one slot less than there are units, but then you wouldn't reasonably use Mozu because everyone else is going to have better stats. In the case of Donnel though, I'm not going to even attempt to justify using him in Lunatic, that's like shooting yourself in the foot.

The problem is that I don't necessarily agree with the argument of Base stats > Growths in every scenario. The existence of Jagens outright refutes the idea, since you'd be making a mistake to even use one of them the entire game, as they'll never be as good as everyone else, despite starting off better. Then again, I think the whole idea of the Villager class and Donnel and Mozu as a whole are flawed, so I'm not going to defend that idea either.

The fact that Takumi isn't in Conquest slipped my mind, but let me counter the Amaterasu idea. First off, your units are going to need to survive the encounters first, before Amaterasu will ever be useful. Kinshi Knights aren't very good at tanking physical attacks, and they're probably going to be the first target, after maybe Azura or Elise. Not to mention that Conquest Lunatic will rip you a new one for stacking that many of one class, as well as for the reason previously mentioned, but multiplied to 11 (especially towards the end when Inevitable End starts showing up). As for the better lance users, anyone trying to use Donnel even remotely seriously will not have him as a Villager for longer than necessary, but if we assume you are playing Lunatic seriously, you won't have him anyway. Also, Chrom and Robin second seal for lances, wouldn't they have to start at E-rank, just like Donnel does with his new weapon?

Seriously though, why bother bringing Mozu when everyone else can accomplish just about the same thing? The only thing she has going for her is that she's a potential Archer in Conquest (the only non-avatar one if I'm not mistaken), or a potential Master of Arms. Merchant is an okay class, it just doesn't seem to work well with Conquest in my experience. At the same time though, Niles can capture an Archer or Master of Arms for you if you really wanted one, so I ask again, why bother? Granted, the same argument can be applied to Donnel, but Donnel can at least pass down Pegasus Knight to his daughter, granting access to Galeforce for Nah, Noire, or Kjelle if you really care about it. I think Galeforce is way overrated and is pointless outside of DLC grinding, so it really doesn't mean much, but that's a different topic for another day.

[Augestein]

Using the argument Base stats > Growths, then by that logic neither Mozu nor Donnel should be touched with a 10 foot pole. IIRC Mozu has to replace someone in every path, as there is one slot less than there are units, but then you wouldn't reasonably use Mozu because everyone else is going to have better stats. In the case of Donnel though, I'm not going to even attempt to justify using him in Lunatic, that's like shooting yourself in the foot.

No. They aren't worth using generally. However, Mozu is still more usable than Donnel. We're talking about the worst unit in the series, not "which unit is worth using." Even then, Mozu STILL has a niche in Conquest because she can be an archer, and it's actually useful in Conquest because of the way the maps work.

The problem is that I don't necessarily agree with the argument of Base stats > Growths in every scenario. The existence of Jagens outright refutes the idea, since you'd be making a mistake to even use one of them the entire game, as they'll never be as good as everyone else, despite starting off better. Then again, I think the whole idea of the Villager class and Donnel and Mozu as a whole are flawed, so I'm not going to defend that idea either.

No. Base stats > Growths does not get refuted by Jagens. Jagens are fine for a good portion of the game, and several units take 10+ levels before they actually begin to be better than a Jagen. Just because a Jagen might not be worth using until the endgame doesn't mean that the Jagen wasn't useful or not worth using at all. Furthermore, some Jagens are worth taking into endgame, and this has only continued as the series hasn't gotten further. Some like Felicia / Jakob even have special mechanics to keep them up to snuff. Because Gunter is not the Jagen of Fates, the servant you start out with is the true one.

The fact that Takumi isn't in Conquest slipped my mind, but let me counter the Amaterasu idea. First off, your units are going to need to survive the encounters first, before Amaterasu will ever be useful. Kinshi Knights aren't very good at tanking physical attacks, and they're probably going to be the first target, after maybe Azura or Elise. Not to mention that Conquest Lunatic will rip you a new one for stacking that many of one class, as well as for the reason previously mentioned, but multiplied to 11 (especially towards the end when Inevitable End starts showing up). As for the better lance users, anyone trying to use Donnel even remotely seriously will not have him as a Villager for longer than necessary, but if we assume you are playing Lunatic seriously, you won't have him anyway. Also, Chrom and Robin second seal for lances, wouldn't they have to start at E-rank, just like Donnel does with his new weapon?

Surviving the attacks is the easiest part. Kinshi Knights aren't bad at taking physical damage when they aren't Sakura or Azura -- more emphasis on Azura than anyone else Sakura actually has 30% def which isn't terrible, and have above average res. All they need to do is survive the turn. I don't see your point here. That applies to literally every unit and class in the game, and Kinshi Knights aren't somehow more fragile. Actually, Conquest won't rip you a new one for having a ton of Amaterasu around. As a matter of fact, there's so many units that have super defense growth in Conquest that having a little less bulk would be good. They'll actually get attacked by something. Having 4-5 units with the ability to heal people 20% for just being there is crazy. It literally eliminates the need to heal. Even if we're assuming that Donnel leaves Villager he still goes back down to E. No. They don't. They might have E in lances, but they still have not E in Swords. So they can use E lances when at weapon triangle advantage or they can nab a kill, and they don't have a horrendous start. So no, it's not the same as Donnel. Donnel needs to get out of his class. Robin and Chrom can just be that class for versatility.

Seriously though, why bother bringing Mozu when everyone else can accomplish just about the same thing? The only thing she has going for her is that she's a potential Archer in Conquest (the only non-avatar one if I'm not mistaken), or a potential Master of Arms. Merchant is an okay class, it just doesn't seem to work well with Conquest in my experience. At the same time though, Niles can capture an Archer or Master of Arms for you if you really wanted one, so I ask again, why bother? Granted, the same argument can be applied to Donnel, but Donnel can at least pass down Pegasus Knight to his daughter, granting access to Galeforce for Nah, Noire, or Kjelle if you really care about it. I think Galeforce is way overrated and is pointless outside of DLC grinding, so it really doesn't mean much, but that's a different topic for another day.

What can Donnel do that any other unit can't? Nothing. Sword users in Awakening are a dime a dozen as you have Lon'Qu, Chrom, Fred, Robin, Sully, Stahl, and even Gregor fairly early on for sword users, and Donnel provides even less than Mozu does. Mozu at least has "Can be an archer in Conquest," and only suffers from being underleveled. Mozu's bases aren't particularly bad for her level. Donnel suffers from being underleveled and with terrible bases to boot. Passing down Pegasus Knight is literally the worst argument you could make pro-Donnel. Donnel passes horrible mods to his child for the chance for the child to grind their way to Galeforce. Grinding to get Galeforce is unreasonable in a standard game, and certainly not worth having your base stats mutilated for Galeforce. I'd rather just get Galeforce from someone like Gaius anyways. He can pass underdog or aptitude which is great I guess, but certainly nothing special.

[Just call me AL]

On 12/17/2016 at 8:19 AM, Dayni said:

Yeah, no. Once again, she can actually survive her chapter without Dual Guard (Not played Lunatic/Hard, so likely wrong on those).

I actually cleared her paralogue on Conquest HM some time ago, she can survive her chapter. And judging from what I've been reading on enemies on Lunatic in FE14, I'm not getting anything that should make me expect anything significantly different there either. So, no. You're not wrong. At least not where HM is concerned.

[Hasnbaakoajsbakaiaja]

Maria is pretty bad for me. Comes late, low level, bad base stats and growths as well.

[Punished Dayni]

1 hour ago, Just call me AL said:

I actually cleared her paralogue on Conquest HM some time ago, she can survive her chapter. And judging from what I've been reading on enemies on Lunatic in FE14, I'm not getting anything that should make me expect anything significantly different there either. So, no. You're not wrong. At least not where HM is concerned.

Thanks for passing that on. Much as it's been a while since I said that.

Also, as for a worst unit imo? I'm kinda rounding that down, though I could probably make a list by game easier-

Spoiler

FE2: I mean, why does Atlas come in as a level 10 villager, forcing me to fight 3 dracozombies to promote him, while he proves himself unexceptional? On Alm's route, I'm thinking Cleive.

FE3.1: I've been using prepromotes, so out of them I'd say Boah, if he didn't have staves. Chainy then, Jeigan is useful early on.

FE4: You know how Patty's difficult to use? Let's make her worse and only give Prayer to compensate!

FE5: Shanam would be too easy a choice, and Bargain makes me not want to pick him. If you base it on recruitment, Xavier is so much worse, and is not worth it as a unit either barring using lances in endgame (might as well raise Dalshin). Kein/Alva would be a cheap shot, as would Ronan/Tanya.Yeah, I'll pick Kein/Alva, much as that's not one unit.

FE6: On the Sophia/Wendy debate, I'm going to pick friggin Douglas. Because 1. Screw your recruitment 2. Screw your growths 3. Screw your bases (Especially your con that makes you more unrescuable than Gonzales) 4. Screw your class. At least Wendy can turn out decent in comparison.

FE7: Karla is just such a disappointment, and her room to improve is too small for when she recruits at a pretty low level, with those bases and growths, for how little time there is left. Can do better if you get 32x, but she's still unlikely to be great on strength, which she'll likely need. Also, you need Bartre promoted, and that's not exactly amazing either.

FE8: Amelia's the worst in gameplay for sure. Ewan at least hits resistance.

FE11: Sure, Matthis/Vyland/Arran are bad horseriders. Sure, unlike Maria other clerics have decent growths. But really, the worst cases involve the Gaiden characters (aka we need many better units dead before we're relevant) (OK, the replacements can be worse, but they're not exactly characters), And my pick of the worst is "I can't break 10 speed on average", Horace. Irregardless of his backstory, as a knight (not a great class to start), he's worse than your other choices.

FE12: Honestly, there's too much to make a good call here.

FE13: Donnel "wins" for his start. Everyone can be used, so how they start matters quite a lot.

FE14B: OK, so off one playthrough, I'm tossing up between Hinata, Setsuna, Subaki and Rinkah. And I don't think I know enough to pick at present, though Setsuna is still better than at least Subaki and Hinata to me.

 

[Oricorio]

Gunter. He's not even usable in Birthright. In Conquest he joins so late that he will be 20 stats behind everybody. In Revelation, he can't even support, will be doubled by everything in the second chapter, and won't take much of a hit in the third. He's a Jagen that sucks at being a Jagen, so he's clearly the worst, only having some Guard Stance utilitty in Conquest.

[Ryuke]

Jeigan.

 

How can you not forget.

 

Or Revelation Gunter.

[Just call me AL]

On 2017年2月15日 at 7:43 PM, Bandido Banderas said:

Gunter. He's not even usable in Birthright. In Conquest he joins so late that he will be 20 stats behind everybody. In Revelation, he can't even support, will be doubled by everything in the second chapter, and won't take much of a hit in the third. He's a Jagen that sucks at being a Jagen, so he's clearly the worst, only having some Guard Stance utilitty in Conquest.

Except he's not a Jagen at all. If there's any character in Fates that's its Jagen, it's Jakob for Fem!Corrin, and Felicia for Male!Corrin.

21 hours ago, Ryuke said:

Jeigan.

How can you not forget.

Hardly. In FEs 1 & 3, he can make do with an Energy Ring and a Speedwing. And in FE11? Well, I would suggest for you to watch this this guy's FE11 playthrough, and see for yourself just how good Jagen is there.

21 hours ago, Ryuke said:

Or Revelation Gunter.

Not even. He's a strong unit that joins when your team needs all the help it can get. That's hardly a sign of being "the worst unit in the series."

Edited February 17, 2017 by Just call me AL

[Shadow Mir]

On 2/15/2017 at 6:43 PM, Bandido Banderas said:

Gunter. He's not even usable in Birthright. In Conquest he joins so late that he will be 20 stats behind everybody. In Revelation, he can't even support, will be doubled by everything in the second chapter, and won't take much of a hit in the third. He's a Jagen that sucks at being a Jagen, so he's clearly the worst, only having some Guard Stance utilitty in Conquest.

Gunter's bases when he rejoins in Conquest are actually pretty good. Also, in Revelations, he joins when all you have for units are Corrin, Azura, and your servant (and possibly Anna if you could clear her DLC at that point, which I doubt). None of those units you'd have at that point except for Corrin are exactly good at taking hits.

On 2/16/2017 at 1:43 AM, Ryuke said:

Jeigan.

 

How can you not forget.

 

Or Revelation Gunter.

See above for Gunter. As for Jagen, he has Silver Lance utility in SD. That's worth a lot more than I can ever see the likes of Lyre, Wendy, or Meg contributing.

Edited February 17, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia

[SpearOfLies]

I didn't try yet early heart seal on mozu(I will try it) but I like point some fact and some personal experiences:

-Awakening lunatic is harder than fates lunatic. I do more reset on first chapters of awakening than fates. Birthright lunatic(the only one I have finished) I found it easier than awakening hard. Saying that Donnel cannot sulvived on lunatic than Mozu feel kind of bullshit to me. I have no hard time to recruit Donnel in hard.

-Conquest hard(first playthough) I train Mozu(as villager) until chapter 17 and level 11. Very hard find situable enemy and feel it didnot pay me off enough. Chapter 22, I feel need train someone cause my units are not good enough. I pick Severa and Beruka(I just played them one chapter or two). Chapter 24, they already pay me off.

 

- Birthright lunatic train Mozu(as villager) until level 19. Give up, her stats still suck. I feel at level 20 merchant/master of arms she is just a bit better than other good characters. Level up her spend too much time. Not worthy my effort.

 

- From far I can say. Normal and Hard, Donnel is better than most of awakening characters. He need really few level up to catch up. For who don't want spend to much time grinding is god bless. But Lunatic is unplayable because of low base stats. Mozu I don't feel any reason to waste time on normal or hard. Lunatic only for easier last missions but feel need spend time equal to awakening lunatic reset time to make her strong enough.

 

After saying so much, the worst character for awakening for me is Frederic. He is the only reason you can survive early lunatic but from a game where the exp farm are insane easy, he is only one who suck so hard that it's faster buy stats boost item to cap stats. Neither dlc exp map is good for him. 

For fates, from the characters I tried, I'm conflited between Nyx and Mozu. From far I love mage class. Nyx have both bad trait of classic mage and dark mage. Bad def and bad abi. I far prefer less vel for more abi. Classic mage have at least good abi to not miss too much. Classic dark mage have enough def to don't worry if they miss. She have stats that make her suck against 90% of enemies. Maybe Quixotic will make Nyx better but I need also try Mozu early heart seal. Funny enough the only good mage class of fates for me are tactician, witch and oni chief. Sorcerer and Onmyoji are not so good.

[Shadow Mir]

4 hours ago, SpearOfLies said:

I didn't try yet early heart seal on mozu(I will try it) but I like point some fact and some personal experiences:

-Awakening lunatic is harder than fates lunatic. I do more reset on first chapters of awakening than fates. Birthright lunatic(the only one I have finished) I found it easier than awakening hard. Saying that Donnel cannot sulvived on lunatic than Mozu feel kind of bullshit to me. I have no hard time to recruit Donnel in hard.

-Conquest hard(first playthough) I train Mozu(as villager) until chapter 17 and level 11. Very hard find situable enemy and feel it didnot pay me off enough. Chapter 22, I feel need train someone cause my units are not good enough. I pick Severa and Beruka(I just played them one chapter or two). Chapter 24, they already pay me off.

 

- Birthright lunatic train Mozu(as villager) until level 19. Give up, her stats still suck. I feel at level 20 merchant/master of arms she is just a bit better than other good characters. Level up her spend too much time. Not worthy my effort.

 

- From far I can say. Normal and Hard, Donnel is better than most of awakening characters. He need really few level up to catch up. For who don't want spend to much time grinding is god bless. But Lunatic is unplayable because of low base stats. Mozu I don't feel any reason to waste time on normal or hard. Lunatic only for easier last missions but feel need spend time equal to awakening lunatic reset time to make her strong enough.

 

After saying so much, the worst character for awakening for me is Frederic. He is the only reason you can survive early lunatic but from a game where the exp farm are insane easy, he is only one who suck so hard that it's faster buy stats boost item to cap stats. Neither dlc exp map is good for him. 

For fates, from the characters I tried, I'm conflited between Nyx and Mozu. From far I love mage class. Nyx have both bad trait of classic mage and dark mage. Bad def and bad abi. I far prefer less vel for more abi. Classic mage have at least good abi to not miss too much. Classic dark mage have enough def to don't worry if they miss. She have stats that make her suck against 90% of enemies. Maybe Quixotic will make Nyx better but I need also try Mozu early heart seal. Funny enough the only good mage class of fates for me are tactician, witch and oni chief. Sorcerer and Onmyoji are not so good.

First off, exactly what do you mean by vel and abi?

For everything else:

Which game exactly are you trying to say Awakening Lunatic is harder than? Also, I don't see how Donnel not being able to survive is bullshit when Donnel has 16/3 base defenses and only 3 base speed. His join time hurts him more than it helps him too - he comes before a chapter where he's likely not being deployed because of a tight deployment limit, and after said chapter is wyverns. On top of that, the only safe way to train him is trapping archers because he dies if he misses - either he gets one-shotted outright, or he gets doubled and one-rounded. Mozu doesn't have to stick her neck on the chopping block to get damage against enemies because she can instantly become an archer.

 

Donnel stuff: I'm not seeing Donnel as better than most Awakening characters when Normal is easy to the point where his stats probably won't make a difference, and getting him up to speed on hard is much harder without DLC (which anyone can use to improve), and this is ignoring that none of the other characters in Awakening have to endure a period of suck like Donnel does.

 

WRT Frederick: What exactly do you mean by that?

WRT Nyx: She does have Heartseeker (cuts enemy avoid by 20), which is more credit than I would give, say, Arthur.

Edited February 19, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Oricorio]

On 2/17/2017 at 0:01 AM, Just call me AL said:

Not even. He's a strong unit that joins when your team needs all the help it can get. That's hardly a sign of being "the worst unit in the series."

Explain why Sakura was better at taking hits in Revelation Chapter 8. Yeah, you can't. Beyond the Chapter 7, which he only joins at the end of, he has no purpose.

 

On 2/17/2017 at 1:20 AM, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Gunter's bases when he rejoins in Conquest are actually pretty good. Also, in Revelations, he joins when all you have for units are Corrin, Azura, and your servant (and possibly Anna if you could clear her DLC at that point, which I doubt). None of those units you'd have at that point except for Corrin are exactly good at taking hits.

By the time you get Gunter in Conquest, all of the units you regularly use have the same or better stats, and much better growths, compared to Gunter who has terrible growths, and much more limited growth too as he has only 10 levels to gain. His speed is also abysmal, and unlike say Benny his tanking skills aren't nearly good enough to make up for it. In Revelations, he is an absolute joke, and will be one-rounded by any enemy magic user. The fact that he can't even be used to support the Avatar makes him the worst unit by far in Revelation, a path which is filled with terrible units.True, the servant and Azura can't take hits, but at least they can do something. Gunter is utterly useless.

[Carmine Sword]

Nitpicking, but Gunter has a level cap of 30 (similar to how Jakob/Felicia have a level cap of 40), so he gets 20 levels potentially.

Even with his shit bases, Gunter still isn't anywhere near the worst unit in Revelations because units like Nyx and Odin exist, who have bases that are just as bad but join way later than Gunter. Gunter at least has utility uses that make him useful even if his combat sucks by giving move on pair-up, giving Corrin 15 hit and 3 attack when supporting (makes bosses on avoid boosting tiles and Anankos more tolerable), Shelter for dancing twice with Azura, and with a reclass to Wyvern he becomes your only 8 move flier until Reina (or promoted Tsubaki if you somehow get him that many levels before Reina shows up), and it also gives him access to some other utility skills like Lunge and Rally Defense.

TL;DR: Being a flying Shelter/Rally Defense bot that gives Corrin a noticeable hit boost when supporting is way more useful than anything that many of the late joining scrub units can do.

[Shadow Mir]

18 minutes ago, Bandido Banderas said:

Explain why Sakura was better at taking hits in Revelation Chapter 8. Yeah, you can't. Beyond the Chapter 7, which he only joins at the end of, he has no purpose.

 

By the time you get Gunter in Conquest, all of the units you regularly use have the same or better stats, and much better growths, compared to Gunter who has terrible growths, and much more limited growth too as he has only 10 levels to gain. His speed is also abysmal, and unlike say Benny his tanking skills aren't nearly good enough to make up for it. In Revelations, he is an absolute joke, and will be one-rounded by any enemy magic user. The fact that he can't even be used to support the Avatar makes him the worst unit by far in Revelation, a path which is filled with terrible units.True, the servant and Azura can't take hits, but at least they can do something. Gunter is utterly useless.

You DO realize she joins AFTER chapter 8 in Revelations, don't you...?

You're wrong about the only 10 levels to gain part - he can level up to 30. Anyways, I fail to see Gunter as worse than the likes of Odin, who joins right before the game starts using promoted enemies exclusively with bases that are barely better than his.

[Oricorio]

4 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Anyways, I fail to see Gunter as worse than the likes of Odin, who joins right before the game starts using promoted enemies exclusively with bases that are barely better than his.

Odin can be used as a pair-up unit. Gunter cannot.

[Shadow Mir]

18 minutes ago, Bandido Banderas said:

Odin can be used as a pair-up unit. Gunter cannot.

Failed a spot check, did we? I'd post more, but this post covers it:

 

28 minutes ago, Carmine Sword said:

Nitpicking, but Gunter has a level cap of 30 (similar to how Jakob/Felicia have a level cap of 40), so he gets 20 levels potentially.

Even with his shit bases, Gunter still isn't anywhere near the worst unit in Revelations because units like Nyx and Odin exist, who have bases that are just as bad but join way later than Gunter. Gunter at least has utility uses that make him useful even if his combat sucks by giving move on pair-up, giving Corrin 15 hit and 3 attack when supporting (makes bosses on avoid boosting tiles and Anankos more tolerable), Shelter for dancing twice with Azura, and with a reclass to Wyvern he becomes your only 8 move flier until Reina (or promoted Tsubaki if you somehow get him that many levels before Reina shows up), and it also gives him access to some other utility skills like Lunge and Rally Defense.

TL;DR: Being a flying Shelter/Rally Defense bot that gives Corrin a noticeable hit boost when supporting is way more useful than anything that many of the late joining scrub units can do.

Also, unless you went and did Mozu's paralogue immediately after chapter 7 (which I wouldn't), you only have four units to use in chapter 8 anyhow. 

Edited February 19, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia

[SpearOfLies]

3 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

First off, exactly what do you mean by vel and abi?

For everything else:

Which game exactly are you trying to say Awakening Lunatic is harder than? Also, I don't see how Donnel not being able to survive is bullshit when Donnel has 16/3 base defenses and only 3 base speed. His join time hurts him more than it helps him too - he comes before a chapter where he's likely not being deployed because of a tight deployment limit, and after said chapter is wyverns. On top of that, the only safe way to train him is trapping archers because he dies if he misses - either he gets one-shotted outright, or he gets doubled and one-rounded. Mozu doesn't have to stick her neck on the chopping block to get damage against enemies because she can instantly become an archer.

 

Donnel stuff: I'm not seeing Donnel as better than most Awakening characters when Normal is easy to the point where his stats probably won't make a difference, and getting him up to speed on hard is much harder without DLC (which anyone can use to improve), and this is ignoring that none of the other characters in Awakening have to endure a period of suck like Donnel does.

 

WRT Frederick: What exactly do you mean by that?

WRT Nyx: She does have Heartseeker (cuts enemy avoid by 20), which is more credit than I would give, say, Arthur.

Speed and skill.

 

Awakening lunatic is harder than fates, at least for Birthright and Revelation. I never feel lunatic so easy to play.

You don't need use Donnel at chapter you recruit him. I personally have easy time to train him in hard without dlc.

A lot of people say awakening is very easy so I don't see how possible you have difficulty to train him outside of lunatic.

Do you even try train frederick?

I said didn't try yet Mozu early heart seal. I said Fates worst unit is based of unit I try. Heathseeker is my favorite first class skill after vantage but is not good enough to me. Just surviving a round of gangbang that conquest have often is more usefull enough than a defective glass cannon. Didn't try Arthur but I saw someone train him and his def is good enough for me.

[Shadow Mir]

31 minutes ago, SpearOfLies said:

Speed and skill.

 

Awakening lunatic is harder than fates, at least for Birthright and Revelation. I never feel lunatic so easy to play.

You don't need use Donnel at chapter you recruit him. I personally have easy time to train him in hard without dlc.

A lot of people say awakening is very easy so I don't see how possible you have difficulty to train him outside of lunatic.

Do you even try train frederick?

I said didn't try yet Mozu early heart seal. I said Fates worst unit is based of unit I try. Heathseeker is my favorite first class skill after vantage but is not good enough to me. Just surviving a round of gangbang that conquest have often is more usefull enough than a defective glass cannon. Didn't try Arthur but I saw someone train him and his def is good enough for me.

Okay. I thought that was what it was.

 

I never did try Awakening Lunatic, or Fates Lunatic for that matter.

How would you do it? It might be easy enough on normal mode, but on hard mode? Grinding is much less feasible since Reeking Boxes are much more expensive relative to normal mode, and with his bad bases (his best non-luck stat is Strength... At a whopping 4.)... Yeah. You'd have to go out of your way to make him usable, and he NEEDS a Second Seal to function. And even with it? He has to fight his way out of bronze lock AGAIN.

Because his bases suck, and he has to risk dying if I try to feed him something that isn't an archer.

I do, and tbf, I find he can hold his own.

Okay. Personally, though, Arthur's good defense is compromised by his awful crit evade, and thus he's a dangerous investment that can easily blow up in your face. Also, as for magic classes, I disagree on Grandmaster and Oni Chieftain being good magic classes - I find the former in particular rather underwhelming for how much of a pain in the butt it is to get.