Moulder!

[Florete]

I know.

Averages? Growths don't matter for them, except that they're used to actually calculate said averages. Averages are incredibly constant. Moulder's averages, however > Natasha's averages.

Let's see... You forgot Guy

Then why did you say it in the first place?

The hell? You totally contradicted yourself. You basically said that they don't matter except that they are what the averages are based on. They don't matter, but they're all that matters?

Guy is the best in FE7, but it doesn't make him good....

[Tino]

HHM Guy is definitely good with incredible offense and very nice durability.

Yeah, you're right, I suppose >_<

But I do want to say this. When not talking about averages, growths don't mean crap because anything can happen with them.

[Florete]

HHM Guy is definitely good with incredible offense and very nice durability.

Yeah, you're right, I suppose >_<

But I do want to say this. When not talking about averages, growths don't mean crap because anything can happen with them.

I suppose... I just prefer Raven for my sword skills and Hero Crest. A second one may go to Bartre.

"When not talking about averages." Key point. How can you be a debator if growths mean nothing? Hell, that's why I'm not a debator, for the reason you just stated; anything can happen.

[Tino]

Growths indeed mean nothing. Averages do. Growths being important for averages is an entirely different matter.

[sandmanccl]

I rarely field Joshua because I tend to use Garcia, Ross, and Gerik almost every playthrough. Josh might find room if there was another Hero's Crest without buying one, but alas.

Anyway, Moulder v Natasha:

It's all a personal choice. I like Moulder's support options better because chances are, at least one of them is going to get used. Seth, Franz, and Cormag are great units and therefore great supports in their own right, but I tend to have them locked into other supports. I also use L'Arachel most playthroughs and can't justify in my head another horse magic user.

I should just make Natasha a Bishop when I play.

Anyway, as for stats, Moulder has ridiculous HP. Don't overlook that. He starts out with 20 HP at level 3 (pretty good for a cleric) with a 70% gain. 70%! That's better than a lot of your ground fighter units, and definitely way above average for magic units throughout the entire series.

Also, 25% defense growth is fairly good in the GBA games. That's actually what the average is. (Adding up all the defense gain totals of every unit save Myrrh and the Creature Campaign units = 795. 795/32 = 24.9% rounded to the nearest 10th.) Averages dictate he still makes it to 14 or 15 defense at 20/20, which is pretty impressive on a magic user.

Might as well give him a shot, is all I'm saying. At worst, you find out you really don't like him and go load a tower of valni map to raise up a character you normally use but neglected for his sake.

[Florete]

Growths indeed mean nothing. Averages do. Growths being important for averages is an entirely different matter.

I really don't get how you can say that. Averages are based on growths, promotion gains, bases, nothing else. Promotion gains and bases are one time things, so growths are the true deciding factors here. If averages are important, then growths must be important, or the averages also mean nothing. After all, anything can happen.

[sandmanccl]

Let's see... You forgot Guy

I think Guy is part of my reason for hating Swordmasters, actually. I think it's borderline useless.

People you could use instead:

Lyn (unique sword to help out against armor and horse units on a swordmaster type unit is very helpful, more attack power and skill and still maxes speed, slightly more defense and resistance, plus she's got the ability to support a lot of other great units, plus she can use bows upon promotion for those times when ranged attacking is more prudent than running face-first into the enemy)

Matthew (the only thing he loses out to Guy on in terms of stats is skill, widely considered to be the most unimportant stat gain unless it's under like 20%, PLUS he can steal, PLUS he can support other great units if you choose to do so)

Raven (he's more beefy. less speed, but still quick enough to double most enemies, eventually gets axes, and is super strong)

All three of them join up early enough to catch up or surpass his level very soon. Guy is dead weight when there's better units you can use. You really should at least be using Lyn and Matthew every playthrough so the only guy he can conceivably replace is Raven, whom I find better.

[Tino]

Here comes a list of characters you can use instead of Guy.

Athos

Bartre

Canas

Dart

Dorcas

Eliwood

Erk

Farina

Fiora

Florina

Geitz

Harken

Hawkeye

Heath

Hector

Isadora

Jaffar

Karel

Karla

Kent

Legault

Louise

Lowen

Lucius

Lyn

Marcus

Matthew

Merlinus

Nils

Ninian

Nino

Oswin

Pent

Priscilla

Rath

Raven

Rebecca

Renault

Sain

Serra

Vaida

Wallace

Wil

Your point is flawed. It's like saying Sigurd (one of the best characters in the series) is not good because I could use someone else in his place, like Ardan (arguably the worst unit in Sigurd's game).

I really don't get how you can say that. Averages are based on growths, promotion gains, bases, nothing else. Promotion gains and bases are one time things, so growths are the true deciding factors here. If averages are important, then growths must be important, or the averages also mean nothing. After all, anything can happen.

Growths are important for averages indeed, but not for your own experiences.

That's what I meant -_-

[Raven]

It was mentioned earlier that HHM Guy is good... I must disagree. I found myself dropping him during chapters in the early 20's. He relied on criticals for nearly every kill, except magic users. Too unreliable for my liking.

[Tino]

He doubles everything, has massive Crit, which means he'll almost guaranteed land a Crit every time he attacks something. This gives him arguably the best offense in the game, and that's no joke.

[Raven]

He doubles everything, has massive Crit, which means he'll almost guaranteed land a Crit every time he attacks something. This gives him arguably the best offense in the game, and that's no joke.

Unless it's a Killing Edge being used, I would hardly call about 30% critical chance x 2 "[almost] every time". An enemy would almost always remain alive unless a critical was pulled off, while almost all other units were one-rounding without the aid of criticals. Much too unreliable for my own liking.

[Tino]

He gets 25 Crit from his supports, has a 15 Crit boost, and has *at least* 20 Skill himself. That gives him 50~55 Crit.

The probability of him landing a Crit is this.

0.55 (Crit) * 0.55 (Crit) = 0.3025

0.55 (Crit) * 0.45 (No Crit) = 0.2475

0.45 (No Crit) * 0.55 (Crit) = 0.2475

0.45 (No Crit) * 0.45 (No Crit) = 0.2025

All that multiplied by 100 gives us this.

Crit + Crit = 30.25%

Crit + No Crit = 24.75%

No Crit + Crit = 24.75%

No Crit + No Crit = 20.25%

That becomes

Crit + Crit = 30.25%

Crit + No Crit = 49.50%

No Crit + No Crit = 20.25%

One or two Crits = 79.75%

No Crit = 20.25%

So he'll land a Crit ~80% of the time. Okay, perhaps it's not "almost always", but it's definitely more than any other characters reach. And that's without a Killing Edge. With a Killing Edge, he will have a HUGE chance of landing at least one Crit

Crit + Crit = 72.25%

Crit + No Crit = 25.5%

No Crit = 2.25%

Or in other words, he has a ~98% chance to land at least one Crit with a Killing Edge, which is definitely "almost always".

[DeSu]

But Guy's str if often so low that not even crit + no crit can kill. Stick with berserkers. Dart one rounds almost everything, and if he can't he has that nice crit boost too!

[DeSu]

@Fox:TRY MOULDER. Mine got 20 def on his own now XD! Also, you shouldn't neglect him because you don't like his growths. This is RNG. It's crazy.

[Meteor]

But Guy's str if often so low that not even crit + no crit can kill. Stick with berserkers. Dart one rounds almost everything, and if he can't he has that nice crit boost too!

Guy gets +2 Str from HM bonuses, which makes him very useable. Dart on the other hand will rape your funds.

[Raven]

That becomes

Crit + Crit = 30.25%

Crit + No Crit = 49.50%

No Crit + No Crit = 20.25%

One or two Crits = 79.75%

No Crit = 20.25%

So he'll land a Crit ~80% of the time. Okay, perhaps it's not "almost always", but it's definitely more than any other characters reach. And that's without a Killing Edge. With a Killing Edge, he will have a HUGE chance of landing at least one Crit

The chances of No Crit + No Crit will be larger than that of Crit + No Crit. At least where not using a Killing Edge is concerned, anyway.

[Meteor]

If you use his supports (all of which give crit), his chance to crit will be higher than not, even without the Killing Edge. He already did that math for you.

[Raven]

If you use his supports (all of which give crit), his chance to crit will be higher than not, even without the Killing Edge. He already did that math for you.

Still not reliable enough to ensure a definite kill in one round. Not without a Killing Edge. Unlike most other units I use, who will one-round, no matter the situation. Guy is great to a point in the game (quite an early point), then he just goes downhill, while others keep up the pace. It got so bad sometimes, not even a critical and a normal attack would one-round. His 30% strength growth screws him over.

[Tino]

An 80~98% chance to crit at least once ensures a kill at least 80% of the time, which is something most other characters can't say. Most others will be two-rounding almost all the time, while some will be one-rounding.

Also, Dart sucks. He costs way, way too much. And he has incredibly crappy Hit.

[Florete]

If a character relies on critical more than anything, s/he isn't good enough. I don't care what Guys supports can do. A unit that's great alone>A unit that's great from supports.

For unranked runs, Dart is freakin' amazing. Otherwise, he kills your funds, sadly.

[Tino]

Excellent because of supports means you're still excellent. Just as excellent as an excellent character without supports.

And if you actually have incredibly reliable Crit, then there's nothing to worry about.

[Florete]

Excellent because of supports means you're still excellent. Just as excellent as an excellent character without supports.

And if you actually have incredibly reliable Crit, then there's nothing to worry about.

There will come those times where the supporting characters aren't deployed, aren't within 3 spaces, or haven't built the support yet. What then? The already great unit is doing just fine. The great-from-supports unit is suddenly sucking horribly.

[Tino]

Guy supports Matthew and Priscilla, both of which are Top/High tier. They're definitely going to be played and supported by Guy.

[Florete]

Guy supports Matthew and Priscilla, both of which are Top/High tier. They're definitely going to be played and supported by Guy.

As much as I agree that those two are great characters, no one is guaranteed to be deployed except those who are forced. Serra may be a person's main healer, and they might only bring Matthew to steal, then drop him when Legault comes. You can't assume someone is definitely coming just because their "top tier."

[Raven]

And if a person doesn't use Matthew or Serra? (Eg. myself) They won't have such great supports for Guy then.