Censorship Sucks

[kingddd]

Or it could just be a abbreviation, instead of saying the Japanese version of the game one could simply saying/write the Jap. version for the sake of brevity. People do it all the time. Instead of saying the United States version of a game, one can simply say the U.S. version.

It wasn't back in the old days but it's been considered an offensive term ever since World War II since many government propaganda have been using as a racial slur to pin and offend the Japanese during that time. Not to mention the amount of Japanese people who were rounded up and thrown and abused during World War II were legal citizens of the country they immigrated to left a sour taste in their minds and it still holds to this day.

[Sidereal Wraith]

It wasn't back in the old days but it's been considered an offensive term ever since World War II since many government propaganda have been using as a racial slur to pin and offend the Japanese during that time. Not to mention the amount of Japanese people who were rounded up and thrown and abused during World War II were legal citizens of the country they immigrated to left a sour taste in their minds and it still holds to this day.

Last time I checked most decent people understood that the word Jap is a racial slur, along with the fact that PuffPuff wasn't using the word "Jap" as a pejorative in the context of her responses on this thread.

Edited July 23, 2016 by wraith

[eclipse]

Last time I checked most decent people understood that the word Jap is a racial slur, along with the fact that PuffPuff wasn't using the word "Jap" as a pejorative in the context of her responses on this thread.

Do not fucking argue with this. Even though my family avoided the internment camps, the lingering sentiment after the war did a lot of damage, which has lasted to this day. Also, I think I've told TC to cut that shit out before.

In other words, drop the point.

[Sidereal Wraith]

Do not fucking argue with this. Even though my family avoided the internment camps, the lingering sentiment after the war did a lot of damage, which has lasted to this day. Also, I think I've told TC to cut that shit out before.

In other words, drop the point.

It's important to point out racism when it actually happens eclipse, but its even more important to understand the context of a person's speech/writing to fully articulate when they are using racial slurs and when they are use words that maybe misconstrued as racist when in actuality said words where not used as a pejorative.

Edited July 23, 2016 by wraith

[eclipse]

It's important to point out racism when it actually happens eclipse, but its even more important to understand the context of a person's speech/writing to fully articulate when they are using racial slurs and when they are use words that maybe misconstrued as racist when in actuality said words where not used as a pejorative.

And maybe you should stop while you're ahead if you're willing to ignore the context of why I posted that.

Actually, consider that a mod order.

[Sidereal Wraith]

And maybe you should stop while you're ahead if you're willing to ignore the context of why I posted that.

Actually, consider that a mod order.

Simple, the context of your post was stating that PuffPuff used a racial slur during one of her responses when in actuality she meant for the word to be used was a abbreviation for Japanese. Maybe it would be more constructive to tell PuffPuff to use a different word such as JP or another abbreviation for Japanese instead of simply implying that she's a racist when she clearly isn't in the context of her posts. Just because you're a mod eclipse doesn't absolve you from being wrong. You're still human like me and we both make mistakes. And furthermore threatening to use your power as a mod to shut down constructive dissent is disingenuous to the whole concept of discussions and the creation of a forum where the exchange of free ideas can happen.

Edited July 23, 2016 by wraith

[eclipse]

Simple, the context of your post was stating that PuffPuff used a racial slur during one of her responses when in actuality the word she used was a abbreviation for Japanese. Maybe it would be more constructive to tell PuffPuff to use a different word such as JP or another abbreviation for Japanese instead of simply implying that she's a racist when she clearly isn't in the context of her posts. Just because you're a mod eclipse doesn't absolve you from being wrong. You're still human like me and we both make mistakes. And furthermore threatening to use your power as a mod to shut down constructive dissent is disingenuous to the whole concept of discussions and the creation of a forum where the exchange of free ideas can happen.

You're missing the part where this isn't the first time I told TC not to do that. So not only are you ignoring what a mod said, you're misrepresenting why I said it. That's why I told you to stop while you're ahead - it was for your sake.

[Sidereal Wraith]

You're missing the part where this isn't the first time I told TC not to do that. So not only are you ignoring what a mod said, you're misrepresenting why I said it. That's why I told you to stop while you're ahead - it was for your sake.

Do you mean PuffPuff when you say TC? Where the other times that she used words that could be seen as racial slurs or racist posted out of genuine spite or where they misconstrued to be racist like what you did this time around?

Edited July 23, 2016 by wraith

[eclipse]

Do you mean PuffPuff when you say TC? Where the other times that she used words that could be seen as racial slurs or racist posted out of genuine spite or where they misconstrued to be racist like what you did this time around?

You're completely missing the point, and I'll explain it to you because I can't tell if you're doing this because you're unable to understand it, or unwilling to.

I'm all over the place because I want to know who's posting what, and why. By learning the "why", I can figure out how to best deal with a situation, whether it's a warning, PM, hiding a post, etc. I also take note of any major quirks someone has, since that will influence my modding decisions. TC has a history of posting things that have either been said, or haven't been accompanied by research. Furthermore, TC will ignore/argue about things if it doesn't fit what he wants to hear. A readthrough of the topic should reveal the exasperation of a couple of our regulars, as well as TC's tendencies.

Knowing that TC doesn't always listen, and knowing that I've told TC to abbreviate things properly in the past, do you have a better idea of why I said what I did? Or will you argue the wrong point?

Edited July 23, 2016 by eclipse

[Sidereal Wraith]

You're completely missing the point, and I'll explain it to you because I can't tell if you're doing this because you're unable to understand it, or unwilling to.

I'm all over the place because I want to know who's posting what, and why. By learning the "why", I can figure out how to best deal with a situation, whether it's a warning, PM, hiding a post, etc. I also take note of any major quirks someone has, since that will influence my modding decisions. TC has a history of posting things that have either been said, or haven't been accompanied by research. Furthermore, TC will ignore/argue about things if it doesn't fit what he wants to hear. A readthrough of the topic should reveal the exasperation of a couple of our regulars, as well as TC's tendencies.

Knowing that TC doesn't always listen, and knowing that I've told TC to abbreviate things properly in the past, do you have a better idea of why I said what I did? Or will you argue the wrong point?

Okay so PuffPuff/TC has a history of reposting and spreading misinformation in conjunction with being argumentative, that's been established. The problem is that still doesn't make what she said racist or absolve you of misconstruing what she posted as racist. If she's writing things such as "the Jap version of the game" that's not the same thing as her writing "the version made by those Japs". Just because she writes a different abbreviation for Japanese then you or I and is stubborn about changing it still doesn't make her a racist. What are some of the other examples of her racist language used in her posts? These examples would prove that either you're right eclipse and I'm making a fool of myself or if you're just misconstruing what she's written in the past as racist due to hypersensitivity.

Edited July 23, 2016 by wraith

[NoNameAtAll]

I fail to see why Ayanami can't just say JP.

But whatever. It's an Ayanami topic, what else is new. Yes, censorship sucks, no it's not anything akin to a big deal in this context. That about covers my thoughts.

[Sidereal Wraith]

I fail to see why Ayanami can't just say JP.

But whatever. It's an Ayanami topic, what else is new. Yes, censorship sucks, no it's not anything akin to a big deal in this context. That about covers my thoughts.

She maybe obstinate due in her ways, but that still doesn't automatically make her a racist due to using different abbreviations for Japanese when said words in question aren't being used as a pejorative.

Edited July 23, 2016 by wraith

[eclipse]

Okay so PuffPuff/TC has a history of reposting and spreading misinformation in conjunction with being argumentative, that's been established. The problem is that still doesn't make what she said racist or absolve you of misconstruing what she posted as racist. If she's writing things such as "the Jap version of the game" that's not the same thing as her writing "the version made by those Japs". Just because she writes a different abbreviation for Japanese then you or I and is stubborn about changing it still doesn't make her a racist. What are some of the other examples of her racist language used in her posts? These examples would prove that either you're right eclipse and I'm making a fool of myself or if you're just misconstruing what she's written in the past as racist due to hypersensitivity.

It makes him insubordinate, and that doesn't fly here. Also, I don't have time right now to dig up the topic in which I said that. Maybe when I get home tonight. Or tomorrow.

Lastly, saying that I'm hypersensitive doesn't help your case at all, and I'm beginning to think that you're unwilling to understand why I said what I did, as opposed to unable. The inability to understand depends on whether or not I explained myself well. Intentional unwililngness is warnable, since it means that you understood what I said, and decided to disregard it.

[Sidereal Wraith]

It makes him insubordinate, and that doesn't fly here. Also, I don't have time right now to dig up the topic in which I said that. Maybe when I get home tonight. Or tomorrow.Lastly, saying that I'm hypersensitive doesn't help your case at all, and I'm beginning to think that you're unwilling to understand why I said what I did, as opposed to unable. The inability to understand depends on whether or not I explained myself well. Intentional unwililngness is warnable, since it means that you understood what I said, and decided to disregard it.

I'm not disregarding what you said Eclipse. You don't want people posting racial slurs on this site and insighting hatred towards other people. PuffPuff/TC has been stubborn and insubordinate towards your requests but that still doesn't make what he/she said racist either here or in the past. My concern is that you're not paying to attention to the kind of launage PuffPuff/TC uses. Could he/she be less obstinate and use better terms? Sure, but that still doesn't make what he/she wrote racist in the first place. The syntax of a sentence can tell a lot about the user's intent in its construction and word usage/placement. That along with the tone and presentation of sentences can be very important. Syntax, tone, and presentation can show the difference in whether somebody maybe joking about a sensitive topic or being serious about the subject matter at hand.

Edited July 23, 2016 by wraith

[eclipse]

The crux of the issue is "not listening" with "BTW that's racist" as the reason why TC should listen to me. Either of these is warnable, but the "not listening" is both what I'm emphasizing, and the lighter of the two warns. If I felt that TC was doing it out of malice, he would've been warned outright, and I might've edited/hidden the post if it was really bad.

[Sidereal Wraith]

The crux of the issue is "not listening" with "BTW that's racist" as the reason why TC should listen to me. Either of these is warnable, but the "not listening" is both what I'm emphasizing, and the lighter of the two warns. If I felt that TC was doing it out of malice, he would've been warned outright, and I might've edited/hidden the post if it was really bad.

"Not listening" I can agree with. "BTW that's racist" I don't agree with based on the way PuffPuff/TC wrote the post. The usage of "Jap" in "the Jap version" comes off as more of an abbreviation rather then a racist slur. While the word can be misconstrued as such, due to its placement in the sentence I read it as an abbreviation rather then a slur. Could he/she us a better abbreviation? Sure. Is the one that he's currently using racist based on the syntax of the sentence? I personally don't think so. I would say "BTW this could easily be misconstrued as racist" rather then "BTW that's racist". I.E. While the post isn't offensive, it can easily be misconstrued as such. Edited July 24, 2016 by wraith

[eclipse]

Fair enough. Regardless, it's still a touchy issue to this day (great way to piss off my mom's side, and they're generally cool), so being careless about it is bad.

[Sidereal Wraith]

Agreed, and its something PuffPuff/TC should take to heart in the future even if he/she is uncooperative with you're requests.

[Shin]

Ayanami, you really need to consider the implications of what you say. Whilst I can see that it's probably more out of stupidity than outright racism, you need to understand how other people might feel about your choice of words - I'd like to think you're old enough to understand that by now!

I've looked at the video explaining the changes and it seems that only one of the DLC's isn't being localised, so the only real things missing are a couple of skimpy outfits in the main game. I can see why they've censored what they have, and it doesn't appear that the game loses very much from it. I can appreciate other people might feel differently, but I won't miss a few teenagers in bikinis!

[Millyna]

The only problem, I have with censoring is the scene in which Tsubasa (in JP version) poses for the photo-guy who kidnapped Maiko in a bikini while the other versions do it in usual clothes. I seriously want to know how she hid the hat. :|

[shadowofchaos]

Well, it was like that in Fatal Frame 5. And I'm fine with that.

[Florete]

Disclaimer: I do not own this game and do not plan to, and my reasons have nothing to do with censorship. I have, however, seen how much of the content in this game was changed and find it rather appalling.

Also, I realize I'm late to the party, but I feel this really needs to be said:

Don't care. As long as the gameplay wasn't butchered at all then I'm fine with it.

My thoughts on all censorships is : as long as it doesn't take away a key gameplay element, its ok, they can make the girls wear eskimo suits for all i care. I mean, if i really wanted to see "anime boobs and butt" i'd go to a hentai site, not buy a game from a company that tries to be family friendly.

Sure censorship can be a little dumb but I don't really care. It's nothing that really affects the game for me. It's not like the game plays any differently so let them do what they want.

"It doesn't effect gameplay, so it doesn't matter" is the worst argument anyone ever used to justify localization changes and censorship.

Games are not just games. They are entertainment. They are experiences. Everything about them makes up these experiences and people want these experiences as they were meant to be. If gameplay is all that matters, why care about story? Music? Graphics? Animations? Maybe the changes made are fine to you; that's okay. But to act like it doesn't matter at all just because gameplay wasn't affected is ridiculous.

None of the above quotes did this, but I do also want to mention that no one deserves to be chastised for not wanting to buy a game because of censorship. There are a number of ways in which this could end up the deal-breaker for someone and it's their choice at the end of the day how they spend their money.

Censorship is only a big deal if that's the only thing about something you're going to focus on. I don't understand why people want to see boobs and ass in an Nintendo game so badly. You can use the "well, I'm tired of Nintendo treating us like we can't handle it" well my question to you is: why are you turning to an Nintendo game if those are the things you want to see????? There are sooooo many other mediums out there that will show plenty so why get riled up when one game doesn't have it? There's no shortage of it just because we didn't get some of the revealing stuff here in the west.

It's not about wanting to see these things in a Nintendo game. It's about wanting to not be treated as a child and to get the experience as intended. No one would care if these things hadn't been in the game in the first place, it's their removal that angers people. "You can see this stuff in other places" is not justification and not even relevant.

[NoNameAtAll]

Disclaimer: I do not own this game and do not plan to, and my reasons have nothing to do with censorship. I have, however, seen how much of the content in this game was changed and find it rather appalling.

Also, I realize I'm late to the party, but I feel this really needs to be said:

"It doesn't effect gameplay, so it doesn't matter" is the worst argument anyone ever used to justify localization changes and censorship.

Games are not just games. They are entertainment. They are experiences. Everything about them makes up these experiences and people want these experiences as they were meant to be. If gameplay is all that matters, why care about story? Music? Graphics? Animations? Maybe the changes made are fine to you; that's okay. But to act like it doesn't matter at all just because gameplay wasn't affected is ridiculous.

None of the above quotes did this, but I do also want to mention that no one deserves to be chastised for not wanting to buy a game because of censorship. There are a number of ways in which this could end up the deal-breaker for someone and it's their choice at the end of the day how they spend their money.

It's not about wanting to see these things in a Nintendo game. It's about wanting to not be treated as a child and to get the experience as intended. No one would care if these things hadn't been in the game in the first place, it's their removal that angers people. "You can see this stuff in other places" is not justification and not even relevant.

Then maybe some of this shouldn't have been in the game in the first place. But y'know, not every single country in the world holds the same values and whatnot that many western ones do. Japan's different in terms of culture, etc. And if those who originally developed the game gave the green light to it, that kind of tells me they don't mind their work being modified to make sense outside of the home country.

The most important issue when it comes to censorship is if the original intent and meaning is lost. I'll be blunt: Most of this stuff changed is nothing compared to what was flat out censorship back in the day to the point entire plotlines were either removed or mangled beyond recognition. Do I think the censorship is okay? Of course not. But I'm also not about to chastise others who feel the reactions are overblown. Because while you have the outcry of people who hate the 'censorship', if it wasn't censored, you can be sure Nintendo's ass would be on the line because they are the family friendly company.

I'm just trying to give a more neutral input.

[Samias]

Honestly some values between countries are just different. I think it's uncomfortable to see 16 year old Tsubasa in see through clothes, swimsuits for a glamour photo shoot or a wedding dress for the entertainment of grown adults. It reeks of child exploitation when you begin to think about it. However...

Tsubasa got aged up and had her swimsuit changed to something more akin to a Nickelodeon or Disney idol which aligns more with the US entertainment industry. I think that is a pretty good change. However, the wedding dress got absolutely butchered. The dress originally shows a modest amount of cleavage, not even Sonia or Camilla levels of cleavage, but for some reason it was retextured into some nonsense bodysuit under the dress. It does not change the symbolism of a young bride that some could find objectionable. It just makes the dress incredibly ugly. I can't stand those arbitrary changes. Other changes in this game that defeat the message of the narrative was to essentially remove the gravure theme of one dungeon. Nintendo didn't remotely want to promote child sexuality but it does impact one part of the game that involves swimsuit creepshots. By being too much of a nanny, the game loses the opportunity to condemn predatory celebrity culture in a way that sticks.

Localization is not censorship though. Bravely Default had costume changes that people also got up in arms about but they didn't impact anything. In some cases the new outfits just looked better on the childlike chibi models. I think the one misstep in Bravely Second's changes was the fact that the Hawkeye (formerly Tomahawk) class actions are still called Shamanism. But it was far better than the cultural appropriation that was the original.

[Master Thunderblade]

Whenever there is an argument like this, there is never a black or white answer.

I usually try to look at both sides of the coin and try to form my own opinion afterwards.

I can certainly see why people get upset because of certain changes, but it makes sense from a business standpoint.

More often than not, not censoring anything might ramp up the rating oversees and might also alienate some would be buyers. Not to mention the protest of certain corporations.

These videos give a good idea as to why censorship is needed in most cases:

https://youtube.com/watch?v=uJlyfXgazgU

https://youtube.com/watch?v=-1r5CKzI2Lo

Still I have to admit, when the game is about japanese idols with the voices in Japanse, not to mention full to the brim with japanese costums and whatnot. It becomes easy to understand why some of the censorship can be deemed unnecessary or pointless when 'cultural differences' is brought forth as an argument. Exactly because this game is so deeply intertwined with Japan (even still in the localized version), the argument loses some of it's power. (if not a lot) To only adress the aspect of sexuallity/nudity and nothing else, you are essentially using tunnel vision. Considering the target audience, I have to assume that this time, they only censored to avoid a higher rating and avoid lesser sales. Not because of a possible cultural disconnect.

Edited September 2, 2016 by Masterthunderblade