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Fates Post Honeymoon Discussion


semolinaro
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So Fates has been out for about four months now. As hard as I try and as much as I want to, I’m having a real hard time finishing it again after my first run-through back in February. I’ve been wanting to share my problems with the game for a while and thought since the honeymoon phase is over, this would be a good time to discuss it. I want to emphasize that I’m not trying to put down anyone who likes the game, but rather, I’d like to start a discussion about what people's overall thoughts on the game are and whether or not they agree/disagree with my points below. There are spoilers below for those who haven’t played, just a warning!

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The three game split is a marketing gimmick

I’ve seen people fight this claiming that each version of Fates is it’s own game, but after playing all three paths, it was not hard to see that this was a way to rake more cash from fans. We all know that Awakening was a breakout success IS, but don’t take your fame for granted. I paid a total of $100 to have the full Fates experience, which wasn’t even that satisfying to begin with. This is something that can work for games like Pokemon, where each version is the same with only slight differences regarding available Pokemon and legendaries. In a story driven strategy game like Fire Emblem, there’s absolutely no need.

The portrayal of Nohr and Hoshido

Looking at the pre-release trailers for Fates, I was a little put off with how Hoshido was the ‘good light side’ while Nohr was the ‘bad dark side’. Not only is this one of the most overused fantasy cliches in the book, but it was just so poorly handled. I was hoping that despite Hoshido being the light side, they would have some of their own skeletons in the closet. Literally none. Everyone is a goody goody who does no wrong and wants purity and happiness, and throughout Conquest the game constantly reminds you that you chose the wrong side. In a game where you have two paths to choose from, one should not be right while the other is wrong, that takes away the entire purpose of having a choice in the first place. Even on the bottom screen map, it says that the Hoshido army ‘seeks peace and tranquility’ while the Nohr army is ‘aggressive and belligerent’. There is nothing I hate more than black and white morality in storytelling. And what makes this so much worse is that Hoshido is a Japanese inspired kingdom while Nohr is a Roman/Renaissance style kingdom. I can assure you that if this game had the exact same script but was made in the West with the kingdoms flipped, there would be public outcry for racism and stereotyping.

Filler filler filler

I still find it unbelievable that IS hired screenwriter and manga author Shin Kibayashi to write the script for Fates, because you sure could have fooled me that a professional writer actually worked on this game. The first half of Birthright is a moronic search quest for your missing bros, while the latter portion of Conquest is a sibling murder spree through Hoshido with no turning point in ANY of the chapters until the last two. Once again, this feels like it was done intentionally so IS could justify passing these as ‘full games’, but the amount of filler makes it so obvious that they were struggling to find any material to begin with.

Loss of weapon durability

When I heard about the loss of weapon durability, I wasn’t bothered in the slightest. But playing through the game, I realized just how much I missed it. I know this was done so that players could invest more time into forging weapons in My Castle, but unless you’re always playing online, collecting the resources you need can be a pain. As well, I feel it takes a huge element of strategy away when you can hack away at enemies without worrying about the frailty of your weapon. Having the same unbreakable weapons in my inventory wasn’t very exciting and made the gameplay surprisingly dull, much more than I expected it to. I hope this is something IS doesn’t continue with in future games.

The plot (or lack thereof)

Oh man, and we laughed at Awakening’s plot? Awakening, while it didn’t have the most spectacular of stories, was well written, charming, and built on great moments. I can’t tell if this is because of poor localization or a bad script or a combination of the two, but Fates story was borderline abysmal. So bad at some points, that I skipped nearly all of the cutscenes (a shame, because some are beautifully animated) to save myself the strife. The story isn’t really that good in any of the paths, but the worst offender is Conquest. Absolutely nothing you do makes any sense, and the characters are strung along by a purely idiotic objective that nobody questions. I also felt that my army was terribly uninspiring. I have no idea why any of my units are fighting for me other than being a royal retainer—everyone kinda just joins because ‘master is fighting so I fight too!’. Chrom’s Shepherds in Awakening had one of my favourite character dynamics in the entire franchise, because they all had their own compelling individual reasons for fighting with you (Cordelia, Vaike and Panne come to mind). In Fates, it’s just a mess of random characters with no real reason to fight for you other than obedience to one of your royal siblings. It’s also easy to see (and this relates to my filler point) that a lot of story content was purposely cut from both paths so you would buy Revelation. By the time I finished each path, I was left feeling empty, confused, and unsatisfied. That’s not how you should feel upon completing a game. Also, did I mention the complete lack of worldbuilding? The freaking continent we’re on doesn’t even have a name, and after playing all three paths I still don’t really understand why the hell Nohr and Hoshido are fighting. But what really, really bothers me is that IS locked vital story details behind a wall of paid DLC (the Hidden Truths map). As if the three game split wasn’t already enough of a cash grab, that was just insulting. I have to pay out my ass to get a full story experience that could have easily been told in one game? That seems perfectly reasonable.

Fanservice that breaks suspension of disbelief

I’ve never really been bothered by fanservice. But with fanservice, there’s a time and a place—and this game definitely did not need this much. Battle panties, characters stripped after taking hits in battle, and ridiculously sexualized armour (I’m looking at you, Camilla), make me question what was going through the game designers’ heads. Fire Emblem is a cutthroat game, some even compare its difficulty to Dark Souls, so when I see all this ridiculous nudity, I lose that feeling of depth and immersion. This is also a game set in a medieval-fantasy type setting, so it’s rather jarring to have my units swinging swords and lances in their underwear while their breasts threaten to knock out the enemy. Most of the offenders are the Nohrian units. Charlotte has one of the most impractical and skimpiest battle outfits I have ever seen, and when I promoted Effie to a general, she wasn’t wearing any pants and her underwear were showing, even though she was decked out in a full suit of armour. Again, I’m not against fanservice, but this is a case where it was excessive and unnecessary.

Moustache-twirling villains

It was pretty obvious even before playing Fates that King Garon isn’t a good guy, but damn, bad guys don’t have to be cardboard either. I was really hoping based on Conquest’s descriptions that Garon would be a misguided king who committed morally questionable acts against Hoshido for the sake of his suffering kingdom (Nohr is short on resources and fertile land while Hoshido is brimming with sunlight and crops, something plot-vital but barely elaborated on). Instead, we get an insane, dragon-possessed madman who only wants Corrin’s suffering and Hoshido’s grisly end for literally no reason. I’m not kidding. Leaders can also be ruthless to the enemy while also a loving father to their children, but Garon has absolutely no redeeming qualities. He threatens his family with death if they don’t follow his orders and wants to invade an innocent nation just for the sake of boasting his blade. And if Garon wasn’t already bad enough, his two henchmen Iago and Hans are the absolute worst and most cringeworthy villains ever written. I have no idea what they want or why they’re so kill-happy other than for the sake of being evil. This proves that a good plot really does need a good villain, but there isn’t one to be found in the world of Fates.

A plethora of tropey characters

In Fates, nearly every single character has a distinct trope, but that’s it. There is hardly any depth to any of the characters, and reading their (extremely short) support conversations can be such a bore that I just skip them. The only character who I absolutely adore is Niles, all of his supports are rich in development, and his wit and charms are irresistible. I feel like IS bit off more than they could chew when making this game, as they had a huge cast of characters to deal with, and therefore couldn’t take the time to give them the development they needed. Effie is one of the worst offenders—she’s nothing but a ‘do you even lift bro’ meathead who only talks about eating and exercise. Yawn. So much potential for great characters as they’re designed beautifully by Kozaki, but their writing could definitely use some work.

Corrin

And finally, a huge reason I don’t like Fire Emblem Fates circles around its main hero or heroine… Corrin. Never has a video game protagonist been more whiny, helpless and passive, and playing through the game as them was so beyond frustrating that I couldn't help but roll my eyes every time they opened their mouth.

I played Conquest first, so I have a really bad taste in my mouth already when it comes to Corrin. In Conquest, Corrin sides with Nohr out of loyalty to his Nohrian family, who have raised him for most of his life after he was kidnapped from Hoshido. To me, it always made sense to stay with the family who raised you as opposed to complete strangers, even if they were blood related (which they’re actually not LOL). This was even one of the driving forces for me to pick up Conquest in the first place. But had I known how the beginning of the game unfolds, I probably would have chosen differently. The opening chapters are set up in such a way that Corrin’s reasons for siding with Nohr are incredibly weak and unconvincing. Corrin knows that Garon is evil and that he wants him dead, yet he still decides to side with Nohr out of loyalty to his siblings (who kept secrets from him, never stood up for him when he was locked in a fortress for most of his life, and commit acts of violence unquestioningly in the name of their mad king of a father. Nice family). And it gets worse from there. After you run off to Nohr, Corrin turns into a murderous errand boy for King Garon who cries and complains about having to kill so many people, yet he does absolutely nothing to stand up to Garon and try to organize an uprising or revolution (like I thought would happen based on Conquest’s descriptions). The narrative tries to emphasize that Corrin hates killing the innocent and has a heart of gold, yet they make him violently invade an innocent nation just because he doesn’t have the guts to stand up to bad king dad (when he knows he’s an impostor). Conquest Corrin is the weakest, most pathetic video game character I have ever played as—never have I felt less empowered as I did when I played through Conquest.

Next is Hoshido Corrin, who I must admit, is miles above Conquest Corrin, but he’s still nothing special. Corrin sides with Hoshido after witnessing Garon’s evils, and vows to take him down and bring peace to both warring nations. But once Corrin gets to Hoshido, it’s like he completely forgot his family back in Nohr. While I understand he’s probably on bitter terms with Nohr after learning of his past, they’re still his adoptive family. Not once does Corrin have a moment to think and reflect that he misses them. In fact, he has more of those moments about his Hoshido family in Conquest, who he literally met for less than 24 hours. It would have added to Corrin’s character if he actually showed that he missed his family back in Nohr. While Hoshido Corrin isn’t an idiot like he is in Conquest, he’s a rather cardboard character. I won’t bother talking about Revelation Corrin, he’s nothing special there either, but at least he has some reasonable drive.

Fates isn't terrible by any means—the gameplay is solid, the soundtrack is beautiful, and the art direction is on point. I guess it just wasn't the game I thought it was going to be in the end.

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I agree, Nohrrin's the worst protagonist in the series. And what pisses me off about how Conquest is structured is that, on top of the plan being obscenely cowardly and involving handing an innocent and peaceful country piece by piece into the hands of a man who is basically Skeletor with a face for no other reason than that Corrin doesn't want their siblings to be mad at them and has basically tacitly resigned themselves to the fact that their siblings have no brains or moral backbone between them and won't help him unless they show them that their father is literally a blob monster... Not only all of that...

...It also basically guarantees that the Nohrian royal siblings undergo absolutely none of the character growth they sorely need until basically the last chapter or two, and that's just pathetic!

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I had a wall of text typed up, but I just lost the entire thing, so fuck it, I'm gonna paraphrase.

Fates is a fantastic game that had one problem. IS bit off way more than they could chew making it. While they made a fantastic game gameplay wise, the story is filled with wasted potential. Granted, I don't think it's anywhere near as bad as people say, in fact I really enjoyed Conquest's plot, but that could very well be because the internet made me go in expecting irredeemable garbage plot wise from Conquest, and the game never got to that point. I honestly find Fates' narrative a MASSIVE improvement from Awakening, and I've heard people complain the characters of Fates are too tropey. I'm sorry, I just don't see it. Maybe I just got the better supports, but the only characters that feel tropey to me are ironically the ones lifted straight out of Awakening, and the new characters Fates offered I found to be very enjoyable characters that I generally enjoy controlling.

While only one country gets real development in Fates, Nohr, I disagree about Hoshido being perfect angels due to the city of Mokushu existing. The city is said to be where Hoshido trains it's Ninja in Birthright, yet the city rebels to openly support Nohr in all three Fates routes. It's not much moral greyness, but it's more than Ylisse by far that has the one off hierarch and MAYBE Chrom's father. Maybe because while the actions he took were wrong, he did them for the right reasons. Nohr may very well be one of the most morally grey countries in the series however, you have the blatantly evil Garon and Iago, the obviously good Nohrian siblings, people like Hans or most Nohrian citizens who just flat out don't give a shit so long as they can do their job and live their lives, and people like Scarlet and the Ice Tribe who are willing to turn against their countries for what they believe in. Nohr may not have the best worldbuilding in the series by far, but I enjoyed what worldbuilding it got to the point where it's my favorite country in the series.

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[spoiler=Marketing Decision]

The reason Pokemon is given two versions is due to a social aspect being an inspiration for the series. It's evident when looking at commercials for Pokemon—children are often huddled together with their systems trading, battling and making new friends. I remember reading that the creator of Pokemon, Satoshi Tajiri, was inspired to create a game where people could do more than just battle against each other; the two versions idea was concocted because he wanted people to trade and show off their catches, similar to the popular hobby of bug catching in Japan—which is what Tajiri used to do as a child. One is not meant to buy both versions of a Pokemon game; there is an emphasis to get one game and interact with other people, possibly getting a friend or relative to buy the other version, thereby reaching out and getting a broader fan and consumer base.

I do believe Fates gained inspiration from that and, while I do agree that money was in mind—they are a business, first and foremost—I don't believe greed was the sole arbitrator of the decision.

Awakening was the comeback of the series, complete with new fans and new attention. Fire Emblem was slowly moving out of being a niche franchise; it is very similar to the Persona series in that aspect, with Persona 3/4 pulling the series out of obscurity and making atlus forget the first two games even existed. A big problem people had, however, with Awakening was its plot and its easy, broken gameplay mechanics. Going from that, one could say that Fates' story could be seen as a sort of bravado. They wanted to prove they could write a cohesive, compelling story—but they also wanted to bring in more fans and attention without alienating the veteran fans.

Hence, the Split of the Three Games.

Now, I do believe each path is its own story with their own cast of characters, game mechanics, weapons and plots—but not enough to pay 100 buck-a-roonies in total for it. thats why i got predownloaded conquest and paid half-price for the other two routes :)

[spoiler=Hoshido and Nohr's Portrayals]

You are not the only one disappointed with the way each kingdom is presented in this game.

I personally thought the light and dark monikers of each nation was merely aesthetic motifs and had no bearing on what the kingdoms stood for; I thought the story would have each side be morally ambiguous and leave the player wondering just what side was in the right, prompting them into buying the other version.

That is not what we got.

[spoiler=The Plot]

Quite honestly, I'm tired of talking about the plot in detail so I will try to use bullet points to illustrate my main beefs for each route.

The Prologue Chapters Six

I hate the first six chapters of this game. They are horribly rushed story exposition that do little in making me feel any empathy or sympathy for either side. Instead, they:

.) establish that Garon is an evil doodoo head that deserves to die and that I should not join Nohr

.) establish that Mikoto is a pure snowflake that did not deserve to die and that I should join Hoshido

The Kingdom of Dark, Nohr

.) further establishes that Garon is an evil doodoo head that deserves to die and that I should not have joined Nohr

.) establishes that Nohrrin is a hypocritical, weak-willed imbecile and that I should not have made them join Nohr

.) establishes that the royal siblings are idiots for staying with their father in Nohr and that they should not have joined Nohr

.) establishes that everyone in Nohr are warmongers

.) establishes that everyone (mainly Nohrrin) are idiots for not knowing who the dancer was even though Azura is the ONLY person encountered that can waterbend

.) establishes that one-time crystal balls and golden thrones are stupid plot devices and that, if I didn't realize by now, I should not have joined Nohr

.) twists the narrative to make Nohrrin into a good guy despite their actions and further proves I should not have joined Nohr

.) establishes that I must be an immoral idiot because I chose Nohr

The Kingdom of Light, Hoshido

.) further establishes that Mikoto is a pure snowflake that did not deserve to die and that I did well in having joined Hoshido

.) establishes Horrin as complete opposite to Nohrrin and I did well in having joined Hoshido

.) establishes that Nohr is full of warmongers and that Hoshido's hate of them is justified so I did well in having joined Hoshido

.) establishes that my favorite prince, Xander, is an idiot and that he should have joined Hoshido

.) establishes that Hoshido is pure and just and that I did well in having joined Hoshido

.) establishes that I must be a moral paragon because I chose Hoshido

The Invisible Kingdom

.) Why do you exist?

I've written it as a joke but these are legitimate grievances.

[spoiler=Cast of Tropes]

Yes, except for about a handful that are relatively well-rounded.

Some of my picks are: Saizou, Mozu and Hinata.

[spoiler=Fanservice]

Yes, particularly the armor designs.

Ironically, however, among my favorite designs is the Dark Mage/Sorceror and Camilla.

I had more written but, for some reason, the website is acting strange. I'm not sure if it's my internet connection or what, but I lost like ten paragraphs and I'm not writing them again.

Edited by SaiSymbolic
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Agreed with OPs points. I don't want to accuse IS of being greedy (the price total for the amount of game content is fair) but I would say there is far less story content, than could be assumed by three separate campaigns. All of the routes feel like they never got back the general framework part of development.

>Many chapters feel like filler and are disjointed with the rest of the story (the entire 2nd gen).

>Very little is known about the world or the people who inhabit it, besides the personal drama of Kamui and his siblings.

>The subplots are underdeveloped and inconsequential (the Anthony traitor arc, Takumi is a Nohrian spy, etc.) and the main plot is either frustrating (Conquest) or boring (Birthright/Revelation).

>Character deaths lack the context/development to make you care.

>Lastly, the protagonist is never allowed to grow and none of the villains are intriguing.

All three routes (and Hidden Truths) together would produce a story perhaps on par with Awakening (which was only decent), but because you need to complete 3 games worth of content to see it, Fates as a whole is worth less than the sum of its parts.

It's quite puzzling how the developers could fail so hard on the story when other aspects of the game (music, graphics, gameplay) are some of the best of the series. I hope next time IS will focus on a solid narrative and a tight cast before they attempt such an ambitious project again. Fates has an A++ concept so what happened?

Nohr may very well be one of the most morally grey countries in the series however, you have the blatantly evil Garon and Iago, the obviously good Nohrian siblings, people like Hans or most Nohrian citizens who just flat out don't give a shit so long as they can do their job and live their lives, and people like Scarlet and the Ice Tribe who are willing to turn against their countries for what they believe in. Nohr may not have the best worldbuilding in the series by far, but I enjoyed what worldbuilding it got to the point where it's my favorite country in the series.

Is it grey or simply inconsistent? The upper brass are all monsters and the next tier down (royal children and their retainers), while personally being decent people, don't seem to have any issue with the way the country is run. Was there much commentary by your playable characters (besides the protagonist) on the brutal subjugation of Chevalier and the Ice tribe? Was there talk of civil reform or non-violent solutions to the country's woes? You don't get grey by having good guys working for the bad guys. You get grey by heroes challenging the status quo or heroes dipping into villainy for righteous goals.

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Game split: I feel that I got my money's worth and more. While there are certainly re-used maps, the number of differences are significant enough for me to not feel taken advantage of. I also felt the two sides had way different gameplay as a result of the differences in stats and characters, which was also nice. Add that to the huge cast, number of supports, and attrition differences (grind/no grind) I'm pleased with how it turned out. I can certainly think of a great many other modern games who have given less for the price.

Portrayal: Uh, what? As others have pointed out, Mokushu are basically backstabbing dirtbags and they're definitely Hoshidan. You can also see glimpses of this in various supports, like when Saizo is being suspected of being a spy and 'tested'. Worldbuilding in general is lacking in fates, but I find this to be willfully ignoring contradicting evidence. Additionally, I believe in Ryoma and Xander's supports they cover how Hoshido is a more economically prosperous nation that shares none of it with nohr, which was a cause of their resentment.

Filler: I'm kinda struggling to understand how Hoshido's lack of turnaround constitutes 'filler', especially since they do go on the offensive when Elise is sick, in Cheve, and on the boat en-route to Hoshido. Same story on Hoshido really, liberating Cheve was seen a major strategic objective, so the only weird part is how Ryoma didn't send any word back about the operation. I'm not trying to defend the story of either here, because both are sub-par, but filler is something that just kills time and doesn't advance the plot at all, when the things you complained about certainly do.

Weapon durability: You're kidding, right? Weapon durability change is one of the best things to ever happen to the series, since now you can have a bunch of interesting weapons to consider. Do I use silver and try and pace myself with the penalties? Can I use steel here, or do I need Iron for the extra attack? Do I want 1-2 range and no crits or abilities, or risk 2 range only for better burst? In older titles you stuck to whatever was the most efficient for the majority of the game and hoarded anything useful or unique for a few select instances of it, and I'm glad to see it gone.

Plot: Mostly in agreement that Conquest is underwhelming, and probably could have been salvaged with a few different directing calls.That said, the character thing is pure hogwash, especially when you use Vaike/Cordelia as examples. While many of both sides are retainers, how and why they became retainers are varied and interesting in my opinion. Even without the DLC, the awakening trio's supports are great in my opinion. I personally consider Fates to have a great cast stuck in a mediocre story, so I definitely strongly disagree with this assessment.

Fanservice: Please, we've had this discussion a number of times, and I'm sure elsewhere as well. What little fanservice is in the game is fine, especially since in the case of berserkers and sorcerers it's equal-opportunity. If you're going to complain about this, I expect you to also complain about every inaccurate weapon design or armor set, because it seems like people really like to hide behind realism when it makes people cover up, but are silent elsewhere. This isn't intended to be an attack on you at all, just that in a world where characters can carry impossible weight and shoot lightning, maybe those other elements are more viable then previously indicated. (I personally agree with the general in particular, though.)

Villain: Totally agreed here*

Good thing he's only the final boss of one route then, isn't it? and the final bosses of Conquest/Revelation were better for it.

Tropes: There are definitely standouts (effie, as you mentioned, and Hayoto) but overall they're pretty good in my opinion. Let's face it, basically every fire emblem has bit part characters that aren't well fleshed out, and the number of these in Fates is pretty low by my count. Your mileage varies, obviously.

Corrin: Wow, take off the blinders for a second. Conquest sucks, but it's explicitly clear that Garon doesn't tolerate dissent, and so I'm not sure what your siblings should have done about the fortress situation. As for the killing, they yet again explicitly tell Corrin they subvert their father's orders, claiming to do his bidding while letting innocents escape and such. Hell, Leo does this in the prologue! Invading Hoshido is incredibly poorly justified I'll admit (were there no more of those crystals anywhere or something?) but it's been made abundantly clear that your siblings won't turn on him without proof, and you can't take him alone, especially with Hans and Iago around. Xander in particular speaks of when he remembers the good Garon, so it's not *that* hard to believe they would be blinded by past love of him.

Not trying to be pointlessly contrary here, but I feel like a lot of these points alternate between being biased and nitpicky, which you're certainly welcome to express, but to which I disagree. Personally speaking Fates is one of the best games in recent memory in my opinion, the gameplay is the best the series has ever been, the music is amazing and the artwork is fantastic across the board, even on generics. I love the characters, and pretty much my only complaint is the weak story, but it's by no means unbearable in light of how much else it has going for it.

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I think most of the problem of Fates story can be traced back to the portrayal of king Garon. Pretty much all plot problems I keep hearing about would be gone or at least decreased by a significant degree if Garon was portrayed with more nuance and if the plot didn't seem to deliberately treat him very poorly.

The complaint that the conflicts between the kingdoms is so black and white is because Garon demands that it is that way. The justification that Norh is in poverty is never used by Garon himself and none of the siblings try to excuse his actions with it. Instead Norh is evil because Garon is evil and wants his kingdom to be as evil as can be. Garon himself sucks away all the nuance from the conflict and that's a shame.

The argument that Norh Corrin just lets the atrocities pile up would be less of an issue if Garon ever shown a hint of having a deeper motive aside from being evil. Him killing so many people ''for the good of Norh'' could have been a much better reason for Corrin to swallow his complaints until he grows to disgusted. It would remove the criticism that Corrin is such a wimp.

I even think the extremely impopular blob monster plot could work if Gooron actually pretended he was the real Garon. To be clear he does not. From everything we hear the appearance is the only similarity between real Garon and blob Garon. Pretty much everyone and their grandma can tell that Garon has changed. I would be perfectly fine with blob Garon having only pretended to fight for the good of Norh and then come out of the closet as a Dragon serving madman but he never does anything to indicate that he's anything other then just completely mad.

Finally the plot just seems to deliberately have it out for him. The more nuanced Garon is created, written and has a backstory yet its tossed out by his replacement doing everything in his power to just ignore anything interesting about Garon. While every other dead royal parent manages to get some kind of closure in revelations Garon doesn't. Even his very poor replacement is pretty much irrelevant in revelations.

I'm actually willing to give the Norh siblings a pass for not standing up to Garon to much. The plot makes it very clear that they have been trapped in an extremely abuse relationship for years.

Just fix Garon and the plot of Conquest would be much better.

I’ve never really been bothered by fanservice. But with fanservice, there’s a time and a place—and this game definitely did not need this much. Battle panties, characters stripped after taking hits in battle, and ridiculously sexualized armour (I’m looking at you, Camilla), make me question what was going through the game designers’ heads. Fire Emblem is a cutthroat game, some even compare its difficulty to Dark Souls, so when I see all this ridiculous nudity, I lose that feeling of depth and immersion. This is also a game set in a medieval-fantasy type setting, so it’s rather jarring to have my units swinging swords and lances in their underwear while their breasts threaten to knock out the enemy. Most of the offenders are the Nohrian units. Charlotte has one of the most impractical and skimpiest battle outfits I have ever seen, and when I promoted Effie to a general, she wasn’t wearing any pants and her underwear were showing, even though she was decked out in a full suit of armour. Again, I’m not against fanservice, but this is a case where it was excessive and unnecessary.

I have to disagree with you there. First off Charlotte just isn't a good example because her dressing skimpy is extremely in character and you could argue Camilla's design is in character for her as well.

But I think you are focusing on the wrong kind of fanservice.

Fates is certainly ripe with putting fanservice above its own good, its very premise and its dignity but all in all I find big breast, skimpy outfits and stripping pretty harmless. Its no big deal and can be easily ignored.

But there is a much more damaging brand of fanservice at work in Fates and that is brought about by Fates being so afraid to leave Awakenings shadow and thus they add things that have no place in the game. There are six clones of popular Awakening characters, cynically chosen for no other reason then because they are popular(and only because popular in Japan to boot) and only three are presented with any dignity(because they are in fact the Awakening characters). The other three are just clones that have no right or reason to be there.

The children mechanic is back one more. Why? Because Awakening had it and it doesn't really matter if there is no place in the premise or plot for kids. It was popular in Awakening so Fates must have it as well. The result is that dozen of great characters only have any dignity if you consider them non canon.

Another very damaging inclusion of fanservice is that you can marry the Hoshido siblings. You can marry your ''blood siblings''. That they actually turn them into ''not blood siblings'' is something I find the most damaging. It shows that fanservice had a very clear priority over the premise and that's kinda gross. You can't marry your Hoshido siblings because they turn out not to be your blood siblings. Instead they turn out not to be your blood siblings so you can marry them. The revelation is there only so that you can marry them and if a choice for Hoshido and Ryoma's dignity take a hit then so be it.

On the tropes

On the tropey characters I actually think Fates is an improvement over Awakening. The Awakening cast is very charming but the vast majority wasn't anything more then their defining trope. Ricken was just the shota boy wanting to be grown up, Severa just the tsundere brat, Yarne the coward and etcetera.

Fates also has a lot of those characters. Arthur and Percy are little more then superhero parodies and Setsuna is defined by her running gag. But subjectively speaking I enjoy those over the top gimmicks more then Awakening's by the book ones. I also think Fates has a lot less characters defined by their tropes. FOR JUSTICE! Arthur coexist besides a character like Saizo who is more of an actual character and while Ophelia is a sequel to Owain's running gag she stands next to Siegbert who is more of a character in the old FE style. The mere tsundere brat from Awakening shows real signs of growing up and Forrest has a clear gimmick but its handles so tastefully that you can question it being a gimmick in the first place.

Overall I find that there is a much clearer balance between tropey characters and more reserved ones then there was in Awakening.

Edited by Etrurian emperor
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But there is a much more damaging brand of fanservice at work in Fates and that is brought about by Fates being so afraid to leave Awakenings shadow and thus they add things that have no place in the game. There are six clones of popular Awakening characters, cynically chosen for no other reason then because they are popular(and only because popular in Japan to boot) and only three are presented with any dignity(because they are in fact the Awakening characters). The other three are just clones that have no right or reason to be there.

The children mechanic is back one more. Why? Because Awakening had it and it doesn't really matter if there is no place in the premise or plot for kids. It was popular in Awakening so Fates must have it as well. The result is that dozen of great characters only have any dignity if you consider them non canon.

Another very damaging inclusion of fanservice is that you can marry the Hoshido siblings. You can marry your ''blood siblings''. That they actually turn them into ''not blood siblings'' is something I find the most damaging. It shows that fanservice had a very clear priority over the premise and that's kinda gross. You can't marry your Hoshido siblings because they turn out not to be your blood siblings. Instead they turn out not to be your blood siblings so you can marry them. The revelation is there only so that you can marry them and if a choice for Hoshido and Ryoma's dignity take a hit then so be it.

That's one of my major gripes with Fates. Maybe it's just me, but every world (Elibe, Tellius, Judgral ETC) have different themes and elements to them (Judgral being darker, Tellius having the racism between Laguz and Beorc etc.), but Fates doesn't seem to have developed it's own identity very well and doesn't do enough to branch of from Awakening. The marriage and children mechanics were popular in Awakening so they must be brought back for Fates, the plot feels very similar to Awakening in many ways and even bringing characters from Awakening into Fates because they were popular and putting more effort into justifying their inclusion than they did fleshing out Fates characters (subjectively speaking).

Edited by Phillius
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A few points here.

First of all, I agree to death with the vilains discussion. I hate Iago, Garon and Hanz simply because they have a lot of potential... to be this. Sure, pure evil can be good, when done right. Hanz is just a mosquito that can't be crushed due to plot armor until you get the chance to demolish him. I could get why we don't kill Iago yet, but remind me why we didn't kill Hanz in Cheve?

On the two paths, there were no reason not to kill him. Hoshido!Rin doesn't give a crap about killing people, and Nohr!Rin by killing him and pretending he got killed by hoshidians, saves more people than he ever could.

And obviously the biggest offender is that their reason to be vilain is "bouahahaahha I'm evil". Seriously.

But, I disagree with the tropey feeling. It's not like for example Kellam (who is the biggest offender in terms of Awakening's supports) who had only one thing people turned around.

Even Effie isn't that bad. Just to remind you that despite her VA, Effie is on Elise's age if I get her supports right. She's just a child, a very strong child indeed, but just a child with huge power and that uses it to help others. (while not being very smart for sure... Nyx support says so)

I don't think anybody in the cast of Fates can really be dismissed as "tropey", after reading the supports. Camilla is obsessive with Corrin, but if you look at her Beruka or Selena support, it's the same thing that happens with them. She's excessive with anyone she loves.

I feel that Fates' main cast (or at least supports) is pretty much well written.

The issue relies more upon the Plot + Worldbuilding and Villains more than anything else. Garon just kills all the credibility of the story on his own.

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I certainly agree with you in regards to these points:

-Portrayal of Nohr and Hoshido. They definitely should have given Nohr more of a reason for attacking Hoshido rather than just "Garon is a dick." The only issue with doing so is that the writer probably wants you to believe that these two kingdoms have no business fighting at all to further make Anankos look like a prick by instigating the war. But I'm sure they could have worked something out if they had tried hard enough.

-The plot. Good idea, bad execution. The story is so chock-full of questionable decisions and face-palm moments that it about makes my head explode. It's also really frustrating to me that nobody outside of Corrin, Azura, the royal siblings, and a few extras (like Jakob, Felicia, Kaze (in Birthright) and Silas) have like, anything to do with the plot after they join. It's like "Hey, let me join you and then say nothing and have zero opinion about the plot for the rest of the entire game!" Keaton and Kaden confuse me the most. Don't they have things to do being the leaders of their packs? Why do they suddenly dedicate themselves out of nowhere to this war that has nothing to do with them?! Ugh.

I also despise the Conquest chapter in Izumo where Zola captures the Nohrian siblings. It's like, okay, you can't do anything behind Garon's back because Iago is watching you... then how do you get away with slaughtering Zola?! What, was Iago on an intermission ordering popcorn or something? And why let the Hoshidan siblings go?! Why not just use them to demand Hoshido's surrender or something, I mean obviously if you let them go, they're just going to go back to leading their army against you and you will have to fight them, just-- ugh, I hate that part so much, they don't even try...

-The villains. Garon needed to be more than just evil. They needed to give us a motivation for wanting to "get him back to normal." Seriously, we have no reason to like this character and really no reason to sympathize with the Nohrian siblings for not wanting to kill him. The only side of Garon we see is just evil, evil, evil. Iago and Hans are also horrendously unlikable and just plain annoying.

-Tropey characters I can agree on in some aspects. Setsuna, Felicia, Peri, and Effie in particular have some of the most dull or annoying conversations in the game because it's always the same thing with them. The rest aren't that bad, in my opinion.

-Corrin. Overall, I find him to be a pretty unlikable protagonist. Too much of a goody-two-shoes who's treated like a special snowflake for no real logical reason. I get that he is supposed to be naive and pure-hearted, and I can kind of get where they were trying to go with him in Conquest. Corrin is loyal to his Nohrian siblings and knows that Garon would slaughter him if he disobeyed, so he tries to make the difference by sparing Hoshidans along the way because Garon is too powerful to rebel against, and Corrin doesn't want to upset his siblings. However, it doesn't work, and throughout the story, Corrin just cries and angsts about the war. I also totally agree with you that I hate how he mulls over fighting his Hoshidan siblings more than the family he actually grew up with.

Something else I really dislike about Corrin is the way he/she treats some of the other characters in his/her supports. I've only really played as female Corrin, but some of her supports bothered me. Isn't Corrin supposed to be Miss Kind-Hearted who tries to get along with everyone? Then why is she so standoffish to some people in her supports? Obviously, in real life, not everybody gets along, but there are times when it seems inconsistent with her character. The support string the bothers me the most is Odin's. I know he's ridiculous, but she seems so utterly disinterested in him once he gets going that it bothers me that they can marry, and I hate their S-support. If you don't like Odin's theatrics, then why are you marrying him?? That's what Odin does! That's who Odin is! If you don't love that about him, then you don't love Odin!

Normally I'd agree with you about the fanservice, but I've just kinda gotten used to it in games nowadays... otherwise, I don't agree with you on the weapon durability part (I hated it and I'm glad that it's gone, I find the penalties to actually add more strategy to the game), and I don't really agree about it being a marketing gimmick. They still had to put an incredible amount of man-hours into the game I would bet, and they give you the other two games at half price. It's really not that bad, but I guess it depends on your perspective. You, obviously, play games for their story, so I can see why you feel gypped.

Moral of the story, don't play this game for the story, lol. The gameplay is amazing. Story is a disaster.

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