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Worst GBA FE Chapter


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I agree. Idoun fell short for a final boss. But at least she didn't have loads of exposition in her chapter. Jan, on the other hand, built up all this tension before his fight. IMO, he should've been as hard as he Fire dragon from FE7, with all 'effective' weapons only dealing X2 damage instead of 3x damage. Apparently, by 'gaining power for 1000 years', he meant sleeping without doing anything for said amount of time, and buying a discount dragonstone at the last minute.

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And I'm asking why you think it doesn't deserve all the hate it gets, because saying something like that and not bothering to back it up is an easy way to not get taken seriously.

The only reason people hate it because of all the RNG reliance (which you have throughout the whole game, well, except on Lyn Normal where there's an entire chapter that is completely scripted) and the fog, I guarantee you, people would not hate on Battle Before Dawn so much if it weren't for that fog and the events of FE6, since Zephiel is the person you protect in BBD and then he causes FE6, and the ironic thing is that one of his first victims in FE6 is Hector. So this chapter also plays a big role in the story of the 2 Elibe games because if this chapter didn't exist, neither would Binding Blade. I bet Zephiel just didn't realize what Eliwood, Hector, Lyn and the party went through to save him, and he wouldn't have been so hostile in Binding Blade if he did (but, I'm getting off topic, this is Worst GBA FE Chapter, not FE Theory Time)

Not trying to talk for Dalek, but maybe because the sheer luck dependency is only a part of the chapter? A really annoying fuck-up on the designers' part, but the map does have its redeeming qualities. I like how you have to rush towards your objective, splitting up your forces to reach all the optional goals, having to find a balance between hurrying and not dying... The first half of the chapter really sells the feeling of urgency and I like that.

I don't hate it because I never had Jaffar dying before arriving. On ENM and HNM, he's not really threatened and I didn't switch to HM for quite some time, so when I did, I managed to rescue him rather quickly (and wasn't unlucky with the RNG and his AI). I'm aware that it's not possible to completely eliminate the risk and I think that's dumb, so I won't try and argue it's well designed. But there is a lot of stuff going on, it's challenging to play (well, for me at least) and it's quite rewarding to manage to beat it (and winning all the side objectives).

However, I also don't like that it's a "Defend for x turns" map without another win condition. Imho, killing Ursula should also end the chapter, giving the player the option to rush her instead of actively protecting Zephiel. So yeah, a flawed map, but not without its good points.

It's not Jaffar why people hate it, it's Zephiel, just sayin'

I'd rate the last mission of the prologue as the worst. It combines bad weather (effectively bad terrain) with so few enemy units that it's just a slog to get through the chapter.

The Prologue is one chapter, the one with the rain is Chapter 10, and I HATE rain, desert isn't too bad because it doesn't affect Mages and Flyers, rain does, which is why I hate it

A pet peeve of mine is the weather. Whether IRL or in Fire Emblem, it annoys the heck out of me (Especially where I live, where it's as unpredictable as 30% growth rates). It sucks too, since they could've done more with it, instead of it simply decreasing movement. Why not incorporate an alternating day/night mechanic; when it's daytime, everyone gets +1 atk and +5 crit bonuses. When it's night time, everyone loses 10 accuracy, but gets +3 atk or something, I'm sick of just rain and snow.

Oh, and on the subject of snow, I don't like FE7's Pale Flower of Darkness (Jerme's map) at all. By the way, I'll be talking about the ENM variation of this map, since this is, most likely, how the player will play this level for the first time (or not, they could play Kenneth's route, but this is just an example). The design seems to be a mess; trees everywhere, chambers scattered all over the map...heck, there's even 2 brigands at the top of the map that are only really there to traverse mountains easily, as there are no villages to visit. And to top it all off, the weather makes your day all the more miserable. Snow halves your units' movement. In fact, it might as well be rain. At least it's something different to look at.

There are six chambers in total, and Jerme, the boss, is hiding in the northeast one, regardless of what mode or difficulty you play. However, there are also a few treasure chests in these chambers. Add in the curiosity of the player and their first time playing, and they're guaranteed to snoop all of the six rooms. And this is how they will most likely spend 25 long turns in order to get everything with one thief. Bringing two alleviates the boredom, but the at this point of the game, the player should've started promoting units; they know how much more useful they can be in combat than thieves.Therefore, unless they choose to play with both Matthew and Legault, the average player (me, the first time) will pick one and deal with it.

TL;DR: It's a boring slog with nothing interesting to offer except for the snow, which is just rain with a coat of ice. It's not fun.

Excluding the Prologue because in Normal mode it is literally impossible to lose, Pale Flower of Darkness (Both Maps) is my least favourite chapter in FE7, I hate that rain, it isn't as bad on Distant Plains and False Friends because I feel like Distant Plains and False Friends are smaller than Pale Flower of Darkness and also have less annoying enemies, I also don't like the thing where you have to choose between Harken and Karel, why can I not have both? If there was a story reason I'd deal with it, but there's not, just because the devs felt like having the Arran and Samson archetype in here

vbI'm gonna be different, and say the absolute last chapter of FE6.

So you've waded through gimmicks upon gimmicks, dealt with some pretty scary enemies and exposition beforehand. . .and then Idoun goes down in something like four hits. It's really anti-climatic, IMO.

Runner-up is the Fire Dragon in FE7, thanks to Luna crits.

Fire Dragon is part of Light, even the game says so, so you're saying that your second least favourite chapter in these three games is Light? Because the Dragon is underwhelming if you can get Luna to crit it.

I liked The Truth of The Legend because I like endgame maps, but the battle with Idoun is underwhelming, Roy two shots her with the Binding Blade, and if he doubles, she is screwed (she's already screwed, but she's screwed even more if Roy doubles) and she can't even attack at 2 range, like Roy can, so you can one round her without Roy being in any danger (Heck, if you use a Warp staff you can beat it in one turn, not even FE7's Prologue can say that)

Unless my calculus is failing me, Roy needs 16 Strength and 20 Speed to one-round Idoun. On average, he'll reach that speed at Level 20/10, so it's not completely unreasonable to reach this even without stat boosters. :D

I always considered Jahn to be the final "real" boss in the game, kinda like the Final Aeon in FF10 or that Latin-chant fight in FF7. There is technically another fight coming up, but that's more of a formality; someone or something that needs to be dealt with even though it's not a threatening warrior in itself. Idoun was formed into the demon dragon to create war dragons, not to fight herself, after all. And while divine dragons are supposedly more powerful that fire dragons, she was still a girl when she was transformed.

That's why I find that Jahn is the real disappointment. His chapter is super repetitive, his underlings fall easily to your legendary weapons (even though Jahn tells us that they had lost most of their strength...) and Jahn himself is not as strong as 1000 years of preparation would suggest. If he was more challenging, Idoun being a total pushover wouldn't be as bad as it is.

I agree that if Yahn was harder, Idoun getting two-shotted wouldn't be as bad because it would give the players who had such a hard time with Yahn a bit of a break. However I'm kind of glad at how easy the final bosses were because of how hard this game was with it's stupid RNG which screwed me over countless times (especially in Arcadia and Retaking the Capital with Douglas)

I agree. Idoun fell short for a final boss. But at least she didn't have loads of exposition in her chapter. Jan, on the other hand, built up all this tension before his fight. IMO, he should've been as hard as he Fire dragon from FE7, with all 'effective' weapons only dealing X2 damage instead of 3x damage. Apparently, by 'gaining power for 1000 years', he meant sleeping without doing anything for said amount of time, and buying a discount dragonstone at the last minute.

I think the Divine Weapons should've been effective against Idoun like against all other dragons, what makes her so special that she only has one weapon effective against her as opposed to 7 (6 Divine Weapons plus the Binding Blade)

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The only reason people hate it because of all the RNG reliance (which you have throughout the whole game, well, except on Lyn Normal where there's an entire chapter that is completely scripted) and the fog, I guarantee you, people would not hate on Battle Before Dawn so much if it weren't for that fog and the events of FE6, since Zephiel is the person you protect in BBD and then he causes FE6, and the ironic thing is that one of his first victims in FE6 is Hector. So this chapter also plays a big role in the story of the 2 Elibe games because if this chapter didn't exist, neither would Binding Blade. I bet Zephiel just didn't realize what Eliwood, Hector, Lyn and the party went through to save him, and he wouldn't have been so hostile in Binding Blade if he did (but, I'm getting off topic, this is Worst GBA FE Chapter, not FE Theory Time)

It's not Jaffar why people hate it, it's Zephiel, just sayin'

In the dozens of times [and I have logs on this site of 10+] I've played this chapter, I've not one time had to restart because Zephiel caused the plot of FE6 to happen, nor have I restarted one time because Zephiel got randomly killed. I'd politely request that you list 5 people who believe that Zephiel is the primary reason why BBD is a terrible chapter over Jaffar, but I'm not one to send people on wild goose chases.

I think it's delicious irony that many people who have played FE7 don't even know that:

Fe6 exists

Zephiel is the villain from FE6

They can play it through emulation

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In the dozens of times [and I have logs on this site of 10+] I've played this chapter, I've not one time had to restart because Zephiel caused the plot of FE6 to happen, nor have I restarted one time because Zephiel got randomly killed. I'd politely request that you list 5 people who believe that Zephiel is the primary reason why BBD is a terrible chapter over Jaffar, but I'm not one to send people on wild goose chases.

I think it's delicious irony that many people who have played FE7 don't even know that:

Fe6 exists

Zephiel is the villain from FE6

They can play it through emulation

Saving Zephiel causes the events of FE6, if you look through some of this topic, you'll see people complaining that you can lose and you can't do anything about it, which is Zephiel dying, even though I agree that Jaffar and even Nino is in more danger (especially on Hector mode because Nino is dangerously close to Ursula's Bolting and if she accidentally moves into it's range she is screwed)

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Saving Zephiel causes the events of FE6, if you look through some of this topic, you'll see people complaining that you can lose and you can't do anything about it, which is Zephiel dying, even though I agree that Jaffar and even Nino is in more danger (especially on Hector mode because Nino is dangerously close to Ursula's Bolting and if she accidentally moves into it's range she is screwed)

Then their reason is that Zephiel dies to bad luck, and not that Zephiel's tied to FE6's plot.

I can understand having a tricky time with the chapter, but

I guarantee you, people would not hate on Battle Before Dawn so much if it weren't for that fog and the events of FE6, since Zephiel is the person you protect in BBD and then he causes FE6, and the ironic thing is that one of his first victims in FE6 is Hector.

is very different from

Saving Zephiel causes the events of FE6, if you look through some of this topic, you'll see people complaining that you can lose and you can't do anything about it, which is Zephiel dying
Edited by Elieson
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Then their reason is that Zephiel dies to bad luck, and not that Zephiel's tied to FE6's plot.

I can understand having a tricky time with the chapter, but

is very different from

No, no it really isn't

I'm saying that you protect Zephiel in BBD and that indirectly causes the events of Binding Blade because Zephiel is alive, Binding Blade would not have happened, if Lyn, Eliwood and Hector had just let Zephiel die

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^This doesn't make sense. Zephiel being the villain of FE6 doesn't have anything to do with how the map plays out. Being forced to make him survive does.

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No, no it really isn't

I'm saying that you protect Zephiel in BBD and that indirectly causes the events of Binding Blade because Zephiel is alive, Binding Blade would not have happened, if Lyn, Eliwood and Hector had just let Zephiel die

Battle Before Dawn.

Jaffar's survival is basically completely down to luck, the long range magic is bound to screw you over since you can't see the mages in the fog. And the presence of Zephiel means that it's impossible to approach this chapter with the kind of caution that the high enemy density requires.

I dare to say Battle Before Dawn. Defense map that plays like a seize, a mounted Bolting user that moves (unlike Selena), a kill-stealing assassin, and a kid that SHITS ON THE ENTIRE CONTINENT 20 FUCKING YEARS LATER! Not salty, just disappointed.

Battle Before Dawn easily. The game wants you to rush to get to the NPCs before they die, but also wants you to play it safe due to the high enemy density littered with dangerous threats. Normally, this kind of tension makes for a great map, but this chapter is an exception. Jaffar is in danger immediately, so you can not rush to him fast enough (you don't have access to Warp or Rescue at this point), and the map is FoW, so it's difficult to properly play it safe because you can't see exactly where the dangerous enemies are unless you look at a guide.

Basically, there are a lot of variables in this map that are out of the player's ability to control, a feature which is almost unique to this chapter (I haven't finished FE5, though, so maybe there's more of that there). In almost every other map in the series, you have the means to deal with whatever the game throws at you with no/very little luck needed to beat it.

BBD and every FE7 defense map

I don't mind either Arcadia or chapter 8, I usually have fun playing them, even if C8 can be slightly tedious (it's still a lot less tedious than maps with long EPs). If I had to pick from FE6, I'd probably take 20xS or 21x.

I'd stay as far away from FE4 as humanly possible if I were you.

Anyways, I agree about Battle Before Dawn being sucktastic.

FE6 Chapter 14 and FE7 Chapter 26/28 (Arcadia/Battle Before Dawn) are by far the worst for reasons stated above. The only other GBA chapters I massively dislike are the FE6 Gaidens, because they are incredibly tedious, have ridiculous amounts of seize tomes and status staves, and are almost always warpskips for me.

I gotta go with Night of Farewells. BBD is super annoying in some ways, but NoF has those stupid disappearing bridges and seems worse about it than like every other time they show up. They just make everything more tedious.

Nino is actually in very little danger here. The only enemy she faces for the first couple turns is a Monk who 3HKO's her if I remember, and she's got an Elixir. Your group should have no problem getting to her before the rest of the enemies do. Jaffar, on the other hand, is surrounded by actually threatening enemies from the start, so he has a chance of just dying before it's physically possible to get anyone down to help/heal him. Note that this only applies to Hector Hard Mode, since I believe the enemies are weak enough in the other modes that the chance of him dying early is minuscule enough to not matter.

Thank you for reminding me about the other thing I dislike about Battle Before Dawn, however: the 15 turn 'limit'. You have to rush to protect the NPC's, so you're going to cover basically the entire map in like 5 turns or so because you can't afford to leave them on their own for any longer than that. This means that once you recruit Nino and secure Jaffar and Zephiel, you still have almost 10 turns left to grab the chests (if you haven't already), get Nino to Jaffar to unlock the gaiden chapter, and rout the remaining ~10% of enemies that weren't in between you and the NPCs. It's way too long, and the last half of the map is basically just mashing end turn because you've already done everything.

I really like the idea of a defense chapter that makes you travel to the point before you can defend it, but in Battle Before Dawn the majority of the fighting is done just getting to Zephiel, so there's nothing left to defend him from by the time you get there. This chapter would probably be really cool if an event spawned a bunch of reinforcements in the south once you got to Zephiel to force you to switch gears from rushing to defending. Jaffar would still be a problem, but that could probably be mitigated by changing his AI slightly or something.

Guys, guys, guys... and gals. Battle Before Dawn, Cog of destiny, (I hate night of farewells with a passion) Arcadia (I like Arcadia despite the restarts), The random tent gag chapter (20X Sacae), Battle in bulgar, and Even the phantom ship are all Great choices for the worst of the worst.

But I CANNOT STAND FOR THE LIFE OF ME Chapter 18, from Sacred Stones. The one with the stone bastards, and eggs. I tried soloing that map with seth. Can't do it on hard mode. Not Just Seth Solo's. EVERY SINGLE TIME I go into that chapter, even with multiple physics and restore staves, someone gets RNG screwed and Stoned, then dies to the ultimate bullshit.

The only way to clear that map without someone dying is to deploy every mounted unit you have, and give them good weapons, and rush. I HATE that map.

The issue is, the game encourages you to play slowly and carefully, but at the same time, it forces you to rush if you don't want to miss out on the gaiden. This isn't helped by the game giving me two deadweight units. And just like in Battle Before Dawn, it's impossible to discern where the dangerous enemies are unless you're employing a guide. And the "challenge" that Arcadia poses is the kind that leans more toward frustration than legitimate challenge.

Those odds aren't exactly reassuring. As for Nino, since I've got to split up and send one of the lords down that way to recruit her, there's a good chance that I'd have someone in that group that can drain Ursula's Bolting and/or kill her.

Chapter 7 + 8 in FE6 are my least favorites.

Chapter 7 because of the huge number of enemies with 1-2 weapons which will automatically move towards you. It's actually impossible to talk to Zealot in time to recruit Treck (never could get him in HM)

Chapter 8 because it's a long and straightforward indoor map. No sidepaths and the chests are in an pointless are tbh. (chests behind the area of the boss)

In FE7 I hate the chapter you've to let Jaffar alive for the already stated reasons.

In FE8 I really dislike chapter 17 because the enemies are on the wrong spots. You don't have to care about the area in the west (except for the dracoshield of the berserker). You just have to rush to the area where Syrene and the NPCs are. With warp and dancing it's easily possible to beat Lyon in two turns before the enemy sages / druids can reach the NPCs.

I don't know how you could see stuff like BBD as overhated - if it's possible to lose without the player being able to do jack to prevent it, chances are it's poorly designed. Same deal for Pinnacle of Light - the arrows of light are random, and they can easily kill a unit if I'm not lucky, which is really annoying. While Blazing Sword's fire traps are the same thing on paper, at least it's obvious where not to stand to avoid them.

Far as I'm concerned, what kills Arcadia's chance of being a decent map is that it suffers from Battle Before Dawn-itis (read: It encourages one style of play at first, but forces another style of play that's the exact opposite of said playstyle). It also ain't any fun whatsoever. Infernal Element would be more tolerable but for the two Bolting sages that practically have overlapping ranges.

It's highly unlikely that Zephiel will die as Jaffar will pull most of the enemy towards him and away from Zephiel, Pinnacle of Light's arrows only do 10 damage (they do have Crit chance) but by that point in the game, most of your units should be able to take 10 even if they get hit every turn, as long as you heal, and they shouldn't have too much crit chance, Ohtz and the Bolting Sage next to him are annoying, but they can be tanked

So what I'm getting from this is that you either fail to grasp or outright ignore that people don't like maps like Battle Before Dawn that are heavily luck-based. Needing slightly more parts luck than skill is one thing, but BBD on hard mode is practically like trying to go against a Swagplay team in Pokemon. And that's terrible.

That's not enforcing two playstyles that are the exact opposite though, just encouraging a combination of a careful playstyle and and effective use of your offense. It's a difficult chapter comparatively, and I can see it being annoying, but the turn limit is super lenient, even if the map would arguably be better had it not existed. It's perfectly possible to approach the map carefully enough while completing in 25 turns. Looking at the map, it takes 6-8 turns to get even the least mobile units to the area with the Mercenaries, then you fight them off while slowly making your way to the boss (another 6-8 turns since there's a land path). While your bosskillers defeat the boss (should take around 3-4 turns depending on your team), you can send a division down to get the warp staff and take on the wyvern riders if you haven't done so yet. Counting all this together, you have 20 turns when taking on the map slowly, in the unlikely scenario that no fliers are used (you even get Miledy right before the map and she's really good here). With fliers, you're closer to 10-15 turns at a natural pace. Unless you full-on turtle and take on all the bandits head-on and don't field any fliers (which no one would do while knowing of the time limit), there should be no risk of missing the gaiden. You're way overblowing whatever complaints the gaiden requirement warrants (and even keeping Sophia alive isn't hard, she has 5 mov in the desert and with Astol you can see any enemies that may ambush her otherwise).

You can also use a Torch on a Thief to anticipate enemies behind the FoW. That at most is the caution you need while scouting, and for the rest of the chapter where it's just fighting goons, regular Thief vision is enough.

Exactly why do you think that Battle Before Dawn doesn't deserve the hate it gets, then? Just because FE has a lot of luck based elements doesn't make it okay to have a map that's dependent on luck to the extent that Battle Before Dawn is. And while the same is true of Pokemon, that doesn't mean that Swagplay isn't an incredibly degenerate, toxic, and braindead strategy.

Not trying to talk for Dalek, but maybe because the sheer luck dependency is only a part of the chapter? A really annoying fuck-up on the designers' part, but the map does have its redeeming qualities. I like how you have to rush towards your objective, splitting up your forces to reach all the optional goals, having to find a balance between hurrying and not dying... The first half of the chapter really sells the feeling of urgency and I like that.

I don't hate it because I never had Jaffar dying before arriving. On ENM and HNM, he's not really threatened and I didn't switch to HM for quite some time, so when I did, I managed to rescue him rather quickly (and wasn't unlucky with the RNG and his AI). I'm aware that it's not possible to completely eliminate the risk and I think that's dumb, so I won't try and argue it's well designed. But there is a lot of stuff going on, it's challenging to play (well, for me at least) and it's quite rewarding to manage to beat it (and winning all the side objectives).

However, I also don't like that it's a "Defend for x turns" map without another win condition. Imho, killing Ursula should also end the chapter, giving the player the option to rush her instead of actively protecting Zephiel. So yeah, a flawed map, but not without its good points.

In this entire thread, sans you, there's been one other person to mention Zephiel's conquest in FE6 as being a legitimate reason for disliking FE7'd Battle Before Dawn.

Even people who have played FE6 don't despise Battle Before Dawn because you save the sequel's villain, before he becomes the villain. They dislike it because:

• Routing the map, or even just killing the boss, doesn't end the DEFEND 15/15 completion requirement early

• On harder difficulties, Jaffar has realistic chances of death before you can reach him, or even get close enough to Physic him to prolong his survival until you rescue him

• Zephiel has the possibility of dying, if Ursula moves to put him in her range and Bolting him (or other misfortune to him say, dying to the axe users and not being able to heal up)

• Nino has a smaller chance of dying to the enemy monk that even on HHM, (Significantly smaller than Jaffar) and the monk isn't all that likely to kill her.

Not because

â—‹ Saving Zephiel is the plot's way of forcing FE6's plot to happen

How are • and ○ the same thing?

No, no it really isn't

I'm saying that you protect Zephiel in BBD and that indirectly causes the events of Binding Blade because Zephiel is alive, Binding Blade would not have happened, if Lyn, Eliwood and Hector had just let Zephiel die

Edited by Elieson
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In this entire thread, sans you, there's been one other person to mention Zephiel's conquest in FE6 as being a legitimate reason for disliking FE7'd Battle Before Dawn.

Even people who have played FE6 don't despise Battle Before Dawn because you save the sequel's villain, before he becomes the villain. They dislike it because:

• Routing the map, or even just killing the boss, doesn't end the DEFEND 15/15 completion requirement early

• On harder difficulties, Jaffar has realistic chances of death before you can reach him, or even get close enough to Physic him to prolong his survival until you rescue him

• Zephiel has the possibility of dying, if Ursula moves to put him in her range and Bolting him (or other misfortune to him say, dying to the axe users and not being able to heal up)

• Nino has a smaller chance of dying to the enemy monk that even on HHM, (Significantly smaller than Jaffar) and the monk isn't all that likely to kill her.

Not because

â—‹ Saving Zephiel is the plot's way of forcing FE6's plot to happen

How are • and ○ the same thing?

I saw a video about how saving the sequel's villain just adds insult to injury.

I don't think you understand what I've been saying, because really, I don't see how else you could see what I've said as contradicting.

I've yet to experience any trauma from BBD. It's not a well-designed chapter, even on NM. But since I'm currently doing a HHM run, I can only expect misery from BBD.

RNG Goddess, have mercy on thine ally.

Ursula moves on Turn 13 or 14 and she doubles Zephiel with her BOLTING (Thanks Whoisthisgit for pointing that out) so you kinda have to exhaust her bolting or kill her

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I saw a video about how saving the sequel's villain just adds insult to injury.

Only two people in this thread indicate that they care, or are even aware, of Zephiel's plot-related implications of survival, and you're one of them. That's the train of thought of many people in here.

I don't think you understand what I've been saying, because really, I don't see how else you could see what I've said as contradicting.

What I'm saying is that most people don't care about Zephiel growing up to try to take over the world. They dislike this chapter for the elements of gameplay, and not for the plot. I see what you're trying to say, but when I'm playing a game, I'm challenged by the game's mechanics to beat the game.

Zephiel's involvement in FE6 has absolutely nothing to do with the difficulty of trudging through FoW and fighting Bolting tome users.

Zephiel's inevitable plans of world conquest in FE6 have nothing to do with the fact that Jaffar can get KO'd by Generals in that chapter.

I have no idea how you can say the story of this situation makes this chapter any more difficult to complete. I know Zephiel's the bad guy in FE6 but it doesn't make the chapter more stressful to complete because in the end, I'm still solving a puzzle of completing the chapter's Completion Requirements, regardless of my personal thoughts on knowledge of the future.

tl;dr I understand how you can have reservations about saving Zephiel if you know the plot of FE6, but I and many others don't find that point worthy of considering the chapter as being "the worst".

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The only reason people hate it because of all the RNG reliance (which you have throughout the whole game, well, except on Lyn Normal where there's an entire chapter that is completely scripted) and the fog, I guarantee you, people would not hate on Battle Before Dawn so much if it weren't for that fog and the events of FE6, since Zephiel is the person you protect in BBD and then he causes FE6, and the ironic thing is that one of his first victims in FE6 is Hector. So this chapter also plays a big role in the story of the 2 Elibe games because if this chapter didn't exist, neither would Binding Blade. I bet Zephiel just didn't realize what Eliwood, Hector, Lyn and the party went through to save him, and he wouldn't have been so hostile in Binding Blade if he did (but, I'm getting off topic, this is Worst GBA FE Chapter, not FE Theory Time)

The problem I have here is, you're pinning some of the blame on plot, NOT gameplay, which pretty much no one else except for you did. Also, note that Sword of Seals came about a little over a full year before FE7 did.

Edited by Levant Mir Celestia
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Only two people in this thread indicate that they care, or are even aware, of Zephiel's plot-related implications of survival, and you're one of them. That's the train of thought of many people in here.

What I'm saying is that most people don't care about Zephiel growing up to try to take over the world. They dislike this chapter for the elements of gameplay, and not for the plot. I see what you're trying to say, but when I'm playing a game, I'm challenged by the game's mechanics to beat the game.

Zephiel's involvement in FE6 has absolutely nothing to do with the difficulty of trudging through FoW and fighting Bolting tome users.

Zephiel's inevitable plans of world conquest in FE6 have nothing to do with the fact that Jaffar can get KO'd by Generals in that chapter.

I have no idea how you can say the story of this situation makes this chapter any more difficult to complete. I know Zephiel's the bad guy in FE6 but it doesn't make the chapter more stressful to complete because in the end, I'm still solving a puzzle of completing the chapter's Completion Requirements, regardless of my personal thoughts on knowledge of the future.

tl;dr I understand how you can have reservations about saving Zephiel if you know the plot of FE6, but I and many others don't find that point worthy of considering the chapter as being "the worst".

It can discourage people from wanting to do it, knowing what Zephiel would grow up to do, Ursula is the only Bolting user in the entire chapter, which is less than some other chapters (Like NOF which has Sonia and someone else with Bolting)

Maxime is a bigger threat to Jaffar than the Generals as Maxime is harder to kill (Speed) and he has a higher hit chance (Due to his miniboss status) and Ursula if he accidentally moves into her range (In Eliwood Mode) and even those won't have great Hit Chance on him because he's an Assassin, the advanced class for Thief, a class known for having High Speed (alongside Myrmidons and Pegasus Knights)

The problem I have here is, you're pinning some of the blame on plot, NOT gameplay, which pretty much no one else except for you did. Also, note that Sword of Seals came about a little over a full year before FE7 did.

The plot aspect about Zephiel growing up to cause Binding Blade can discourage people from wanting to play BBD

Also, it doesn't matter that Binding Blade come out before FE7, FE7 was a prequel to Binding Blade so FE7 took place 20 years before Binding Blade

Honestly, BBD was only thrown in there to ensure that Binding Blade happened, I don't think BBD would've been a thing if Binding Blade wasn't a thing

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It can discourage people from wanting to do it, knowing what Zephiel would grow up to do, Ursula is the only Bolting user in the entire chapter, which is less than some other chapters (Like NOF which has Sonia and someone else with Bolting)

Maxime is a bigger threat to Jaffar than the Generals as Maxime is harder to kill (Speed) and he has a higher hit chance (Due to his miniboss status) and Ursula if he accidentally moves into her range (In Eliwood Mode) and even those won't have great Hit Chance on him because he's an Assassin, the advanced class for Thief, a class known for having High Speed (alongside Myrmidons and Pegasus Knights)

The plot aspect about Zephiel growing up to cause Binding Blade can discourage people from wanting to play BBD

Also, it doesn't matter that Binding Blade come out before FE7, FE7 was a prequel to Binding Blade so FE7 took place 20 years before Binding Blade

Honestly, BBD was only thrown in there to ensure that Binding Blade happened, I don't think BBD would've been a thing if Binding Blade wasn't a thing

The plot still has nothing to do with why people would dislike the chapter, its more how fast you're forced to move to protect Zephiel, which if you know the game well enough and how to get there fast, you can manage it, but for people playing it the first time, they can die to RNG, Jaffar may be fast and he does camp himself on a pillar sometimes, but he is able to die simply due to a bad RNG string. Not to mention ontop of that you're timed to get a level 5 mage over to him, to talk for a Gaiden to recruit him.

(I mean I love Jaffar & Nino as characters and stuff but this is kind of annoying even playing it 13 years later)

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It can discourage people from wanting to do it, knowing what Zephiel would grow up to do, Ursula is the only Bolting user in the entire chapter, which is less than some other chapters (Like NOF which has Sonia and someone else with Bolting)

Maxime is a bigger threat to Jaffar than the Generals as Maxime is harder to kill (Speed) and he has a higher hit chance (Due to his miniboss status) and Ursula if he accidentally moves into her range (In Eliwood Mode) and even those won't have great Hit Chance on him because he's an Assassin, the advanced class for Thief, a class known for having High Speed (alongside Myrmidons and Pegasus Knights)

The plot aspect about Zephiel growing up to cause Binding Blade can discourage people from wanting to play BBD

Also, it doesn't matter that Binding Blade come out before FE7, FE7 was a prequel to Binding Blade so FE7 took place 20 years before Binding Blade

Honestly, BBD was only thrown in there to ensure that Binding Blade happened, I don't think BBD would've been a thing if Binding Blade wasn't a thing

The plot argument is piss-poor and doesn't add to your point whatsoever. Also, Maxime is in a completely different position on Hector mode - one that's closer to your units. And Ursula has 52 hit on Jaffar - that's actually what I'd call threatening, given that if Jaffar gets hit, he loses over half his HP.

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The plot argument is piss-poor and doesn't add to your point whatsoever. Also, Maxime is in a completely different position on Hector mode - one that's closer to your units. And Ursula has 52 hit on Jaffar - that's actually what I'd call threatening, given that if Jaffar gets hit, he loses over half his HP.

And what about the fighters with swordreavers? They also usually have 50 hit on Jaffar. Jaffar may be fast, but all it takes is 3~4 hits for him to die. Also, why do Jaffar, Nino and Zephiel all feel like moving before using an Elixir?

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Simple - the desert and fog WOULD encourage careful play, but the time limit throws a wrench in that by making it close to, if not impossible to approach the chapter with the caution that the situation requires.

thx to that I'm mentioning Arcadia I didn't have AS bad of a time as most people would but I don't need an explanation as to why People'd hate it so much also what you said, also I don't like how it punishes you for not training Shanna(which I didn't train), Elen(Same boat), Lugh, Saul, Lilina, Tate, Raigh, and Milady( I had those trained) and it punishes you for training Lance, Alan, Clarine, Sue and Sin, 5 all 5 are some of the best units in the game IMO I had Milday Tate and Lilina promoted by then and Lugh NEARLY at level 20 so I was A OK Baring letting Cecilia die (not like anyone didn't bench her after this)

Edited by Mmicb0b
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The plot still has nothing to do with why people would dislike the chapter, its more how fast you're forced to move to protect Zephiel, which if you know the game well enough and how to get there fast, you can manage it, but for people playing it the first time, they can die to RNG, Jaffar may be fast and he does camp himself on a pillar sometimes, but he is able to die simply due to a bad RNG string. Not to mention ontop of that you're timed to get a level 5 mage over to him, to talk for a Gaiden to recruit him.

(I mean I love Jaffar & Nino as characters and stuff but this is kind of annoying even playing it 13 years later)

It isn't hard to get Nino over to Jaffar, just rescue her with someone with high movement (Paladin, Falcon Knight, Wyvern Lord) and rush them to Jaffar, you really don't have to move that fast to protect Zephiel, I normally take like half the turns just getting up there

The plot argument is piss-poor and doesn't add to your point whatsoever. Also, Maxime is in a completely different position on Hector mode - one that's closer to your units. And Ursula has 52 hit on Jaffar - that's actually what I'd call threatening, given that if Jaffar gets hit, he loses over half his HP.

IK, I've played BBD on Hector mode, that's why I specified on Eliwood mode, Ursula has 52 hit on Jaffar, I don't really notice (He typically for me doesn't really move into her range)

And what about the fighters with swordreavers? They also usually have 50 hit on Jaffar. Jaffar may be fast, but all it takes is 3~4 hits for him to die. Also, why do Jaffar, Nino and Zephiel all feel like moving before using an Elixir?

The fighters with Swordreavers having just under 50 hit aren't too bad, unless you really get unlucky with RNG (thank goodness this isn't Binding Blade, or it would be near impossible to keep Jaffar alive), they also only appear on Hector mode

I dunno why they feel the need to move to heal, it's just how their AI is programmed I guess

thx to that I'm mentioning Arcadia I didn't have AS bad of a time as most people would but I don't need an explanation as to why People'd hate it so much also what you said, also I don't like how it punishes you for not training Shanna(which I didn't train), Elen(Same boat), Lugh, Saul, Lilina, Tate, Raigh, and Milady( I had those trained) and it punishes you for training Lance, Alan, Clarine, Sue and Sin, 5 all 5 are some of the best units in the game IMO I had Milday Tate and Lilina promoted by then and Lugh NEARLY at level 20 so I was A OK Baring letting Cecilia die (not like anyone didn't bench her after this)

Lance and Alan are amazing, especially when A-Supporting with each other (I always have a Lance-Alan A Support because it's so good)

Thany just sucks unless you get EXTREMELY lucky with her level-ups, Ellen isn't great, but since I don't have anyone better to field, I'll bring her for another healer (although I will not waste a Guiding Ring on her), Lugh is EXTREMELY vulnerable to getting Mag screwed, Saul is one of the better healers in FE6 from my experience, Lilina just kicks butt, Tate is clearly the best Falcon Knight in FE6, hands down (When your competition is Thany and Yuno, Tate just beats them both), Ray is the best Shaman (his competition is Sophia and Niime, although Niime imo is one of the better pre-promotes, only being beaten by Percival) and Miledy is easily the best flyer and can be your best unit, so ya

Regarding Cecilia, the only reason you want her (other than more staff units) is for her Aircalibur and her Mend

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(thank goodness this isn't Binding Blade, or it would be near impossible to keep Jaffar alive)

FE6 has the same RNG as FE7, and even if it didn't, the difference to true hit would be minimal when the displayed hitrate is between 45 and 55.

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That, and technically it would be easier for him to survive in Binding Blade, because weapon hit rates are a lot lower, the weapon triangle bonuses are lower, and Reaver weapons don't double them in FE6. So those Swordreaver Fighters would have around 20 Hit as opposed to 55.

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FE6 has the same RNG as FE7, and even if it didn't, the difference to true hit would be minimal when the displayed hitrate is between 45 and 55.

Then explain how much bullcrap the FE6 RNG throws at me compared to FE7

That, and technically it would be easier for him to survive in Binding Blade, because weapon hit rates are a lot lower, the weapon triangle bonuses are lower, and Reaver weapons don't double them in FE6. So those Swordreaver Fighters would have around 20 Hit as opposed to 55.

Weapon Hit Rates are offset by the stupid RNG favouring the enemies

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Then explain how much bullcrap the FE6 RNG throws at me compared to FE7

None of this comes from the RNG, it's just FE6's difficulty being higher than FE7's, especially early on, due to the enemies having higher stats (and existent Lck -> higher Avo) and weapons being less accurate, so misses on the player's side are more likely and more impactful in FE6. Enemies miss just as often as player units at 65-75 hit, you just don't notice it because you aren't going to bank on those misses for your strategy to work.

Weapon Hit Rates are offset by the stupid RNG favouring the enemies

Not true, it's proven that FE6 has the same RNG as FE7. You should probably do some research before arguing like that. In the scenario X-Naut described, Jaffar would in fact be much more likely to survive - no matter how different the RNGs are, Jaffar wouldn't be more likely to be hit at 20 hit than at 55, and they are identical, so that remark doesn't make sense.

Edited by Gradivus.
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There are multiple reasons why people would think that FE6 has a worse RNG system than FE7, even though it really is exactly the same. Firstly, a miss in FE6 is usually more costly, as the enemies are more threatening, especially on hard mode.

The second reason is due to the weapons generally having lower hit rates in FE6 and enemies having better stats, meaning that your chances for success are lower. For example, if your units have an average of 90 hit, they are going to miss every 10th attack on average. Units having only 80 hit are going to miss every 5th attack on average. It is only natural to experience significantly more misses if you hit rates are lower.

On the other hand, the enemies suffer from low hit rates too, which makes the endgame of FE6 so easy. Most enemies can hardly hit your powerful units reliably.

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None of this comes from the RNG, it's just FE6's difficulty being higher than FE7's, especially early on, due to the enemies having higher stats (and existent Lck -> higher Avo) and weapons being less accurate, so misses on the player's side are more likely and more impactful in FE6. Enemies miss just as often as player units at 65-75 hit, you just don't notice it because you aren't going to bank on those misses for your strategy to work.

Not true, it's proven that FE6 has the same RNG as FE7. You should probably do some research before arguing like that. In the scenario X-Naut described, Jaffar would in fact be much more likely to survive - no matter how different the RNGs are, Jaffar wouldn't be more likely to be hit at 20 hit than at 55, and they are identical, so that remark doesn't make sense.

There are multiple reasons why people would think that FE6 has a worse RNG system than FE7, even though it really is exactly the same. Firstly, a miss in FE6 is usually more costly, as the enemies are more threatening, especially on hard mode.

The second reason is due to the weapons generally having lower hit rates in FE6 and enemies having better stats, meaning that your chances for success are lower. For example, if your units have an average of 90 hit, they are going to miss every 10th attack on average. Units having only 80 hit are going to miss every 5th attack on average. It is only natural to experience significantly more misses if you hit rates are lower.

On the other hand, the enemies suffer from low hit rates too, which makes the endgame of FE6 so easy. Most enemies can hardly hit your powerful units reliably.

Well I notice that in FE6, you CANNOT reliably dodge above a 20 hit chance and CANNOT reliably hit below a 90, which is not the same in FE7

It's not that it's more costly, it just happens more frequently that you miss and the enemy hits, even when you have between an 80 and a 90 chance while the enemy has between a 20 and 30 chance (It's one thing if it happens once or twice, but more than that is just too much)

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Battle Before Dawn. RNG survival of a recruitable unit is silly, and lets not talk about how much more silly it is on HHM...

Can't say anything for Arcadia or any of the long enemy phases maps in 6 as I used the 4X speedup on them...Hey I didn't want die of old age.

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