Do you like the story telling in the Tellius games?

[Dinar87]

Yes, but only for Part 2 of RD. PoR is a cliched snore fest and RD is just... I don't want to beat a dead horse. Yes, the world-building is great but fantasy racism just needs to die in a hole because it's been done to death. And don't get me started on Part IV ( but 4-2 and 4-5 were good because it tied up events from FE9, and the fact that it had better characters too ) when they yeah... defeat a goddess and Ike goes God-Mode Stu. Tellius as a whole also suffers from an incredibly boring Lord with a predictable character arc. The Dawn Brigade and the plot suffers because of poor writing and when you try to combine all of this and make it into some huge epic, well, you've essentially put a nail in your own coffin. Micaiah had so much potential but again, she is not only hurt by the game's atrocious pacing, but King Kong and his band of Scene-Stealing Monkeys ( who already had an entire game to themselves ) come along to eat up 90% of Part 3.

It still baffles me how a gem like Part 2 and turds like Parts 3 and 4 can exist in the same game, but I probably have a simple answer for that: Elincia, her retainers and the rest of the CRKS are simply better written characters than the GMs and DBs. And great characters often make for great stories.

What did you like about Elincia and her retainers? What makes a good character in your eyes?

[Anacybele]

I disagree and feel that even though I love Kieran, Ike, Elincia, and the GMs are the best written characters in the Tellius saga, for the simple reason that they had the most screen time and supports/conversations for development. Lucia and Makalov didn't have nearly as much, and Geoffrey and Bastian barely had any in either game. I don't count Marcia because she didn't join the CRK until RD. When you're given a lot of conversations and screen time, especially through supports and base conversations, there's a lot more room for development and characterization.

Kieran was lucky enough to have a decent amount of screen time and supports in PoR, though, so he is somewhat better than the others in the CRK group, which did help my love for him. But I also just love his design and his personality. :P

Also, I would appreciate that you didn't call Ike and his group such stupid names. That's going a bit too far with the bashing. Just say you don't like them, that's quite enough.

Edited August 2, 2016 by Anacybele

[Augestein]

I disagree and feel that even though I love Kieran, Ike, Elincia, and the GMs are the best written characters in the Tellius saga, for the simple reason that they had the most screen time and supports/conversations for development. Lucia and Makalov didn't have nearly as much, and Geoffrey and Bastian barely had any in either game. I don't count Marcia because she didn't join the CRK until RD. When you're given a lot of conversations and screen time, especially through supports and base conversations, there's a lot more room for development and characterization.

Kieran was lucky enough to have a decent amount of screen time and supports in PoR, though, so he is somewhat better than the others in the CRK group, which did help my love for him. But I also just love his design and his personality. :P

Also, I would appreciate that you didn't call Ike and his group such stupid names. That's going a bit too far with the bashing. Just say you don't like them, that's quite enough.

But more screen time doesn't equate to a good character. I mean, most people would say that Takumi and Leo for instance are the best characters in fates, and they don't get nearly as much screen time as Corrin-- which I'd honestly say that there's a split as large as the grand canyon for the integrity of his/her character. The only ones that really got decent screentime were Mist, Ike, Titania and Soren, and of those four, only Ike, Titania and Soren really get much screen time. Mist generally just appears to say something goofy and remind you that Ike has a sibling. Outside of that, she rarely, if ever contributes anything productive outside of being able to carry the medallion, which doesn't really make her a character so much as it does a plot device.

Kieran does get lucky in that regard, I agree, but Geoffrey's supports are pretty good too. Astrid and Makalov have enough support time as well. Part 2 as a whole just juts out as being more competently written IMO than Part ... Everything else. It doesn't try to be more than it is, and it works wonders.

[Anacybele]

You're missing the point. I didn't mean that more screen time by itself automatically meant a better character. I said support conversations, base conversations, as well as screen time in the main story. The CRK didn't get as much of any of that as the GMs did throughout both games.

Geoffrey's supports weren't that good to me and he doesn't have as many as Ike and the GMs (pretty sure he can only support with Elincia and Callil. Why he can't support with Bastian, I don't know, but then again, Elincia also can't support Lucia...). Elincia only has two supports as well, but one of them is with Geoffrey, and she gets a lot more screen time otherwise and part 2 in RD was well written.

There are several base conversations and supports that give depth and development to the three brothers, Titania, Rhys, etc. I don't see as much of it for Geoffrey, Makalov, Bastian, or Lucia. Hell, Shinon even gets a little depth in some of his conversations, and we even learn his mother never hugged him. We don't learn diddly squat about Geoffrey and Lucia's parents or past, or Makalov's parents/past.

Hell, there's even a house in RD that if you visit with one of the three brothers, a special scene occurs because the lady there is Rolf's mom! Nobody else gets a privilege like that, not even Ike or Elincia.

Edited August 2, 2016 by Anacybele

[Augestein]

You're missing the point. I didn't mean that more screen time by itself automatically meant a better character. I said support conversations, base conversations, as well as screen time in the main story. The CRK didn't get as much of any of that as the GMs did throughout both games.

Geoffrey's supports weren't that good to me and he doesn't have as many as Ike and the GMs (pretty sure he can only support with Elincia and Callil. Why he can't support with Bastian, I don't know, but then again, Elincia also can't support Lucia...). Elincia only has two supports as well, but one of them is with Geoffrey, and she gets a lot more screen time otherwise and part 2 in RD was well written.

There are several base conversations and supports that give depth and development to the three brothers, Titania, Rhys, etc. I don't see as much of it for Geoffrey, Makalov, Bastian, or Lucia. Hell, Shinon even gets a little depth in some of his conversations, and we even learn his mother never hugged him. We don't learn diddly squat about Geoffrey and Lucia's parents or past, or Makalov's parents/past.

Hell, there's even a house in RD that if you visit with one of the three brothers, a special scene occurs because the lady there is Rolf's mom! Nobody else gets a privilege like that, not even Ike or Elincia.

Yeah, I got that. Ike, Titania and Soren are the only ones that really get much time. Mist is just kind of there. Shinon? Gets an extra conversation, but he may as well have spawned at of nowhere. We don't know his origins. Gatrie? Nothing. Mia? Not much either. Rolf gets that conversation with the village, but not much. Boyd gets some decent screen time, but outside of him being a hot head, there isn't anything else to him. Even his ending in RD sucks. Oscar gets some things said, but not much. The house is nice, but

Because pasts aren't necessary to what makes a character developed. Backgrounds can help to flesh a character, but they aren't necessary to develop a character. Elincia's origins are very similar to Lucia's, so there's no much point in going on about it. Geoffrey may as well have been "the boy next door" to Elincia. There's no reason to go on about that. Let's use Titania for instance, do we really know about her past a lot? No. We know she was a knight, and Rhys helped her once. But we don't get to learn why she even wanted to be a knight. Bastian I'll admit is pretty elusive, but I always felt that was part of his charm. As for Elincia not having supports with people close to her? It's the same reason that Ike doesn't have supports with Mist and Muarim doesn't have supports with Tormod. They are already "close" so they don't *need* to have a support to learn about each other. It's an odd choice, but it's consistent in Tellius. All of them have bonds, and if you notice, in PoR, any person that transfers an A over will be on the list of people that the character has a bond with. In the case of Elincia and Geo for instance? It's the like/love that causes a bit of a rift between them, so it's enough to talk about. Another example? Greil's past is more fleshed out than a lot of characters in the game, but he certainly isn't a developed character. He barely interacts with anyone but Ike-- or he's speaking to everyone, and then he dies before we really get to know what type of person he is.

In the case of characters, sometimes knowing more about their past and the like can hurt them. I felt that I liked the BK less when they tried to flesh him out because I felt that his behavior became bratty, and nonsensical. At least before he was just Ashnard's right hand man. Same goes for Ashnard. Knowing more can hurt just as much as it can help. And I stand by that the only ones that get decent development with their screen time is Ike, Titania and Soren. Shinon having it revealed that his mother didn't hug him is unfortunate, but it doesn't develop him. Imagine if you will that I'm a character, if I told you that my dad never praised me as a child, that doesn't somehow develop me as a person or character, it just makes certain quirks about me possibly more understandable, but it's not necessarily going to develop me as a character if nothing happens after I tell you this.

[blah the Prussian]

The BK also exists so that Ike also has a personal motive for going against Daein, instead of fighting for Crimea merely because of Elincia. You could say Ashnard could've done what the BK did for the same result, but it's more understandable that a Dragon with an Agenda went off to kill Greil than the king of Daein, who was busy with the occupation of Crimea. imo Ashnard is the rival to Elincia while the BK is the rival to Ike, and it works well.

I loved PoR's storytelling (plot, story, worldbuilding, characters, and most of all, base conversations that explore the scenario around the characters and show more about their personalities and backgrounds). RD was flawed because, being a 4 parts game, it didn't explore the liberation of Daein as well as the liberation of Crimea on the past game, some parts of its story felt rushed while others dragged (like part 4 and the laguz alliance war vs Begnion), and the Blood Pact made the conflict between Micaiah and Ike feel more forced than it could've been if they were fighting for personal motives alone.

Which is why Ike is the one to kill Ashnard, and Elincia is not the main character? I'd honestly think the BK was okay if Ike and Elincia were co-lords, as I said. The problem is that Elincia isn't the lord, and this relegates the main antagonist to a secondary role. Further, the Black Knight just isn't interesting. The mystery around him has a stupid payoff (I work for the guy who wants to murder EVERYONE because he was nice to me once) and he just isn't interesting. The focus throughout the game is on the Black Knight as an antagonist. This is an even bigger problem when you beat him two chapters away from the end, dissipating all that buildup on something that isn't the climax. I'm sorry, but the BK just isn't interesting.

[Anacybele]

And "already being close" hasn't stopped Ike and Soren from getting a support. And supports don't necessarily always have to make characters grow closer, it can also make them learn a few new things about each other that they didn't know before, like how Ike didn't know Soren was Branded and that the Branded were hated. But they're still as close as always.

We know a few things about the pasts of the characters I mentioned. I don't recall learning that much about Lucia or Bastian or Geoffrey, except that Lucia and Geoffrey are Elincia's milk siblings, meaning they were all breast-fed by the same woman. One of the purposes of one of my short fics was to give Geoffrey and Lucia more background to flesh them out more, that's how much I noticed the lack of details we had on them.

Edited August 2, 2016 by Anacybele

[Luchi]

I don't see why people are under the impression you need to have a complex backstory to write good characters...

The game goes into excessive detail with regards to Zelgius' past ( and even Greil ), but are they interesting characters? No. And implying that the three brothers or any of the GMs are better written than Ellie's retainers because they have no 'background story' is lol. They show their characterisation through the very way they carry themselves in the games, and that is one of the highlights of a well-written character. And it is because of this that Part II of RD excels. It just has the best characters in Tellius, all gathered together in one lovely, though short, segment.

Sometimes less is more. I should know; I've written plot and dialogue for video games already and unlike writing stories for novels or even fan-fiction, your audience isn't really going to care about backstories if they're poorly written.

[Augestein]

And "already being close" hasn't stopped Ike and Soren from getting a support. And supports don't necessarily always have to make characters grow closer, it can also make them learn a few new things about each other that they didn't know before, like how Ike didn't know Soren was Branded and that the Branded were hated. But they're still as close as always.

We know a few things about the pasts of the characters I mentioned. I don't recall learning that much about Lucia or Bastian or Geoffrey, except that Lucia and Geoffrey are Elincia's milk siblings, meaning they were all breast-fed by the same woman. One of the purposes of one of my short fics was to give Geoffrey and Lucia more background to flesh them out more, that's how much I noticed the lack of details we had on them.

That's still false. Soren is close to Ike. Ike didn't completely remember why Soren was so close. And some of that might be partially do to the whole "Ike's memory scene." It actually works out rather well.

That's fine. Nothing wrong with that.

[Anacybele]

No, Soren and Ike are best friends. Ike didn't remember when he first met Soren, he never forgot that he's good friends with him. :/

Nobody is saying a complex backstory or anything like that is needed for a good character. But some background is, imo. Which the CRKs rather lack. I also didn't see much characterization for them. I don't really know how to describe their personalities. But I can describe Oscar as cool and collected, Boyd as hit first, ask questions later and doesn't care about details, etc. Imo, the three brothers are the best written characters in the game that aren't Ike, Elincia, or Soren.

I guess we're just going to agree to disagree in the end though, so I'll leave it at this.

Edited August 3, 2016 by Anacybele

[Augestein]

No, Soren and Ike are best friends. Ike didn't remember when he first met Soren, he never forgot that he's good friends with him. :/

Nobody is saying a complex backstory or anything like that is needed for a good character. But some background is, imo. Which the CRKs rather lack. I also didn't see much characterization for them. I don't really know how to describe their personalities. But I can describe Oscar as cool and collected, Boyd as hit first, ask questions later and doesn't care about details, etc. Imo, the three brothers are the best written characters in the game that aren't Ike, Elincia, or Soren.

I guess we're just going to agree to disagree in the end though, so I'll leave it at this.

The point is, is there something that pushes a rift between them though. Like how Geoffrey and Elincia have one despite being close. It's not like the brothers where there's nothing that causes any real cause to talk because there's still things that Ike doesn't understand about Soren (and in return things that Soren worries about with Ike). Read the B and A support again from PoR. It's clear that there's still a bit of mistrust between them. Not because of Ike, but because Soren is still weary of Ike if Ike found out the truth about was he truly is. Like Ike doesn't really care, but there's still things that keep him from being as close to Soren. To Ike it's a casual friendship like everyone else. To Soren, it's not.

I'm fine with agreeing to disagree.

[Loki Laufeyson]

Its my favorite story out of the FE games, so yeah i dig it. Some of the plot of RD is a bit wonky, but overall, it suits me fine enough. I only didnt really like the delivery of some of the reveals. Like Ranulf dropping the BK bomb and the one about Micaiah being Sanaki's half sister and shit like that. Some of it comes out of nowhere or just is revealed in a really lackluster way. But the actual plot is fine. I feel like the Blood Pact thing could be more interesting, or replaced with something else thats more political but alas.

[Radiant head]

I have a ton of problems with both games, especially RD, but on the whole I enjoyed them a lot. And by the standards set by the rest of the Fire Emblem games, they're probably top tier.