Does Ike actually have any character flaws?

[Dinar87]

Title. Also, if you think he's a flawed character, what kind of flaws does he possess?

Edited July 28, 2016 by Dinar87

[FdRstar]

Wow, the poll is horrible. You put two questions in there with opposite meaning but only provide yes/no answers. That's really confusing.

[Dinar87]

Wow, the poll is horrible. You put two questions in there with opposite meaning but only provide yes/no answers. That's really confusing.

Fine. I've changed it a bit. If it's still wrong then let me know how I can fix it for you...

[NJ7009]

It depends on the game.

In PoR Ike is pretty flawed. He is a green commander and he relies on Soren and Titania for assistance constantly to the point that the army would be unable to function without them. He almost gets all the mercenaries killed after Greil's death but manages to get out of it due to laguz ex-machina. There was also that bit where he could have gotten himself killed by insulting the apostle...

Things go right for Ike but that doesn't make him perfect.

In RD... He can be rather Stuish. But, then again, his development occurred in PoR.

Overall I'm going to say he's more flawed than a Gary Stu.

[Magical Glace]

I'm going to back up the poster above me.

PoR Ike is a fine character overall, but he gets hurt a lot by his RD character. Nothing really goes wrong with him in FE10, everyone worships him except Micaiah and some other Daein guys despite the fact there's still racists throughout the continent and not just in Daein, and the narrative treats his position in the war in Part III as the "good" one and treats it without any grey blur to balance it out, unlike with Micaiah. Even with his development in FE9, this is a bit hard to swallow for me.

So FE9 - not at all Stu

FE10 - definitely Stu.

Edited July 28, 2016 by Glaceon Mage

[Augestein]

Yes and no. He should have flaws, but the game always flips them to either turn out to be things that don't hurt him at all, or end up helping him. Or people just give him a free pass. So "yes" he does have flaws, but the game just kind of ignores them so they don't really come across as flaws.

[Water Mage]

In PoR? Not really, he grows as character and can be interesting?

In RD? Definitively a Mary Sue. Everyone praises him, everyone loves him, and people who doesn't love him are seen as bad and or Micaiah's case, her dislike of Ike is seen as a character flaw of hers, even though she has a very logical reason to dislike him.

He's always in the right side and never makes any mistakes in RD. Seriously, he doesn't make a single mistake in RD! It's kind of frustraring actually.

Hell, by the end of the game, even a goddess starts worshipping him!

Don't get me wrong, I really like Ike as character, but RD praises him too much.

He hurts the story of RD quite a bit.

[Ken Masters]

Poll has nothing to do with the question.

A Mary Sue is a self insert of the author in a given universe.

A character with no flaws is a terrible character, but not a Mary Sue

[Magical Glace]

Poll has nothing to do with the question.

A Mary Sue is a self insert of the author in a given universe.

A character with no flaws is a terrible character, but not a Mary Sue

The definition of Mary Sue/Gary Stu isn't entirely clear, however, I prefer to take it as a general term for "overly perfect" and unrealistic characters, and not specifically limited to self inserts. Because while it doesn't happen much, self inserts can be done well, and be believable characters. Mary Sue has such a negative connotation in the present day internet that it doesn't fit all self-inserts, though it fits a lot of them done by less skilled writers.

Just my opinion though.

Edited July 28, 2016 by Glaceon Mage

[Dinar87]

The definition of Mary Sue/Gary Stu isn't entirely clear, however, I prefer to take it as a general term for "overly perfect" and unrealistic characters, and not specifically limited to self inserts. Because while it doesn't happen much, self inserts can be done well, and be believable characters. Mary Sue has such a negative connotation in the present day internet that it doesn't fit all self-inserts, though it fits a lot of them done by less skilled writers.

Just my opinion though.

Yeah when I said "mary sue" I meant characters with absolutely no flaws whatsoever...in other words, perfect and unrealistic.

[Augestein]

The definition of Mary Sue/Gary Stu isn't entirely clear, however, I prefer to take it as a general term for "overly perfect" and unrealistic characters, and not specifically limited to self inserts. Because while it doesn't happen much, self inserts can be done well, and be believable characters. Mary Sue has such a negative connotation in the present day internet that it doesn't fit all self-inserts, though it fits a lot of them done by less skilled writers.

Just my opinion though.

The bulk of the definition of a "Mary Sue" hinges on sort of "wish fulfillment" on the author's part. Generally speaking, the character will demonstrate abilities far beyond the scope of what they should know, abilities they should be capable of (you know, like a teenage boy that spends most of his time playing video games somehow being able to keep up with an athlete), or have things that are extremely unclear as to why they should. And most pressingly, they are liked by one of the bigger characters for no reason outside of the fact that the character is an amazing person. This isn't to confuse say, a sibling that thinks the world of their brother / sister, but people that have no reason to pay them that sort of respect. IE, Mist thinking the world of Ike isn't a problem. Soren having a thing for Ike isn't a problem considering their past together. Heck, Lethe having a thing for Ike isn't a problem either. It's when everyone feels compelled to show Ike a ton of respect and shower him with praise that he alone hasn't earned. IE, the stupid little epitaph sounding thing at the end is going way, WAY overboard with how much it (the author) likes Ike, and completely ignores all of his/her friends that did things to help Ike, or even ignores someone like say, Micaiah, who should at least have been mentioned in that for being the

VESSEL OF A GODDESS

.

[Ken Masters]

Yeah when I said "mary sue" I meant characters with absolutely no flaws whatsoever...in other words, perfect and unrealistic.

Cool beans. Not a Mary Sue in the intended way, but what can you do.

In that case, yes, Ike's "flaws" are not really flaws because they never stop him in any way. His only real flaw is that he "doesn't know much" in general. Which has no effect when he gets free passes for using the word "sub-human" in Gallia, or gets constant aid from much better warriors while still getting the credit because "he's new to the bussiness", gets a ton of respect from people he never saw for no real reason etc etc.

He has no real flaws, but then again, no Fire Emblem protagonist has'em :/

Edited July 28, 2016 by Riptor

[Moblin Major General]

Given that Ragnell is a God Mod anyway, it makes sense that Ike would go from lime green to thwomp. Ike is also good at bludgeoning through bureaucratic bullshit, unlike most other FE protagonists, even Marth.

[Magical Glace]

The bulk of the definition of a "Mary Sue" hinges on sort of "wish fulfillment" on the author's part. Generally speaking, the character will demonstrate abilities far beyond the scope of what they should know, abilities they should be capable of (you know, like a teenage boy that spends most of his time playing video games somehow being able to keep up with an athlete), or have things that are extremely unclear as to why they should. And most pressingly, they are liked by one of the bigger characters for no reason outside of the fact that the character is an amazing person. This isn't to confuse say, a sibling that thinks the world of their brother / sister, but people that have no reason to pay them that sort of respect. IE, Mist thinking the world of Ike isn't a problem. Soren having a thing for Ike isn't a problem considering their past together. Heck, Lethe having a thing for Ike isn't a problem either. It's when everyone feels compelled to show Ike a ton of respect and shower him with praise that he alone hasn't earned. IE, the stupid little epitaph sounding thing at the end is going way, WAY overboard with how much it (the author) likes Ike, and completely ignores all of his/her friends that did things to help Ike, or even ignores someone like say, Micaiah, who should at least have been mentioned in that for being the

VESSEL OF A GODDESS

.

Again, it's a vague term, to the point that the only thing that can really be considered consistent with everyone's interpretation on what exactly a Mary Sue "is" is that "it's bad writing and should be avoided."

So in other words, what one person sees as a "Sue" is different than how everyone else sees it. That's what happens with language sometimes, especially informal language like the term "Mary Sue", with this vagueness being my point.

Cool beans. Not a Mary Sue in the intended way, but what can you do.

In that case, yes, Ike's "flaws" are not really flaws because they never stop him in any way. His only real flaw is that he "doesn't know much" in general. Which has no effect when he gets free passes for using the word "sub-human" in Gallia, or gets constant aid from much better warriors while still getting the credit because "he's new to the bussiness", gets a ton of respect from people he never saw for no real reason etc etc.

He has no real flaws, but then again, no Fire Emblem protagonist has'em :/

I wouldn't say no FE protagonist has flaws. Eirika's naivety, Hector's childishness, Ephraim's tendency to try to settle everything with the pointy end of his lance, Micaiah's refusal to give up on her nation are all played as character flaws by the narrative.

For example, when Castle Renais is taken from Orson in Chapter 16 I think, Seth specifically states that the cheers are not for Ephraim. The cheers are for the end of Orson's misrule, highlighting Ephraim's lack of any experience in anything not called fighting.

Edited July 28, 2016 by Glaceon Mage

[Jave]

Does being bland as molasses in FE10 count as a flaw?

Because if so, yeah, he is.

For the record, I don't even take the term "Mary Sue" seriously anymore. It's one of those monickers that get thrown around so much that it has basically lost all meaning.

[Augestein]

So in other words, what one person sees as a "Sue" is different than how everyone else sees it. That's what happens with language sometimes, especially informal language like the term "Mary Sue", with this vagueness being my point.

I can agree with that.

[MCProductions]

Where's the "yes, he has flaws, but the narrative conveniently forgets they exist" option, because Ike most definitely HAS character flaws, but much like Corrin, Roy, and Marth, the characters in the narrative rarely, if at all, call them out on them on actions that show their flaws.

[Water Mage]

Where's the "yes, he has flaws, but the narrative conveniently forgets they exist" option, because Ike most definitely HAS character flaws, but much like Corrin, Roy, and Marth, the characters in the narrative rarely, if at all, call them out on them on actions that show their flaws.

I think Ike is like Corrin in this case.

Both of their flaws are seen as positives.

[DarkDestr0yer61]

In Path of Radiance, I wouldn't say he is a Gary Stu. He goes through a growth period where he learns how to be a leader after the recent death of his father.

In Radiant Dawn, I would say that he is Gary Stu, sort of. In the games defense, he's already gone through his development, but he does get praised a little bit too hard and he seems to outshine the new main character. He is also required to finish off the final boss, not Micaiah.

The real bad contrast in this is the fact that Micaiah is such a flawed character. Micaiah comes across as gray, while Ike comes across as good. Not to say that being flawed automatically makes you a better character, Micaiah makes some VERY questionable decisions.

Even then, I still wouldn't say that Ike is the biggest Gary Stu. Avatar characters aside, when I think of Gary Stu, I think of a certain Lord who was confident enough in his skills in order to solo a castle, and it worked for the most part.

[Anacybele]

Ike is not a stu at all. Micaiah is closer to being a Sue/Stu than he is, by far. For reasons already stated above that I won't repeat. He has flaws in PoR, and he's even shown to not be perfect in RD (though it's not done nearly as well as it was in PoR). Do any of you remember that conversation he had with Rafiel and Nailah towards the end? He criticized Rafiel for not being more like Reyson and then Nailah scolded Ike for bothering Rafiel, because Ike's still an airhead that doesn't get that Reyson is the one that's different, not Rafiel. xP

Also, he still relies on Soren to save him from Aimee. lol You'd think by now he knows how to avoid her on his own. XD Yet he still nearly got tricked into saying she was the most beautiful girl in the camp! He's a bit gullible due to this! :P

Oh yeah, his love of food could be seen as a flaw/weakness too, but it wasn't presented as such, so it doesn't exactly count. If someone complained "Ugh, Ike eats too much and needs to save some for the rest of us!" then we'd have something here, but nope. xP

Edited July 29, 2016 by Anacybele

[shadowofchaos]

But those flaws are not in any way shape or form undermining anything he does or the way someone views him.

They are minor instances that make him sort of seem human, but not to the point PoR makes him actually relatable.

In PoR he questions authority that could get him KILLED and has consequences for others.

In RD, everything he does is right in the position of a leader, despite him "not knowing the details" from the way his personality is established from PoR.

Those flaws you pointed out are more of a "Oh youuuu!" when a relative makes fun of a silly mistake.

They aren't actual character flaws in the context of the plot.

Edited July 29, 2016 by shadowofchaos

[Anacybele]

Well yeah, I did say that PoR presents Ike's flaws a lot better than RD does. I'm just saying that as little as RD actually does so, it's still there at all.

[Troykv]

So... His "flaws" are presented as something positive.

[Quintessence]

So... His "flaws" are presented as something positive.

so flawless

I think Ike has more the flaw of being PERFECT rather the flaw of Micaiah to be PRAISED. I think Ike is more flawed than her in that regard. He is basically the badass leader in RD.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Ike has a few flaws. The scene where he insults the apostle actually is painted as a bad or at least highly questionable move, as his friends admonish him afterwards.

Just... he doesn't have very many flaws, and he does some very "Stu-y" traits. One big one is how he is placed in charge of a band of mercenaries at age 17 despite no experience because of nepotism (but he's not a noble, we promise!) and the game expecting us to take his side instead of that of Shinon and Gatrie, the former of whom is painted with a large brush of negative traits (racist, drunk, money-grubber) so that we have no doubt. Or the fact that pretty much every major player in the world befriends/admires him, or how the ending to RD is all about what a perfect person he was. It certainly got worse in RD than in PoR, but it was always there, and I think it's part of why I find the post-Begnion sections of PoR frustrating.

There are certainly worse lords in this regard in the series, but Ike is still pretty bad about it.