NJ7009 Posted July 29, 2016 Share Posted July 29, 2016 (I'm so going to get roasted for bringing up the whole Ike sexuality/Priam's canonicity debate...) Okay, so I have watched the debates on Priam's canonicity over the years and there never seems to be an argument which satisfies everyone. Some claim that Priam is an indirect descendant of Ike's (the people who support this argument tend to vouch for either an 'Ike is gay' reading or believe Ike wouldn't end up with anyone) and claim Priam isn't canon. Then there are others who would say Priam is Ike's direct descendant, feeling his mere existence defies any possibility of Ike ending up with a man. I should clarify here that I feel Priam is the result of some mischaracterisation on Awakening's part. The idea of Ike settling down and having a family is one that seems to defy everything presented about him in the Tellius games. The Tellius games, canonically, state that Ike does not leave with a woman. He leaves with either a man (Soren/Ranulf) or alone. However this raises the question on whether it is possible to explain how Priam can exist while also allowing for the possibility of Ike having an interest in men. If you accept a bisexual reading of Ike, there actually is an explanation which should sate both sides of the Priam debate. That is, if one presumes that Awakening takes the 'Ike leaves Tellius alone' ending as canon. In Radiant Dawn, certain supports get the 'canon' treatment. Certain pairs are presumed to have reached A support in PoR (e.g Ike and Soren, Tormod and Sothe, Astrid and Makalov, Geoffrey and Elincia ect). This idea of presumptive support could have occurred between Radiant Dawn and Awakening. I believe that Priam's existence is based off a scenario where Ike NOT achieve an A level support with either Ranulf or Soren by the end of the game. Such an ending could feasibly result in Ike eventually settling down and having a child. The reason I am inclined to believe this explanation more than any other possibilities is that, regardless of whether Ike is straight or not, I do not believe Ike would settle down with a woman while travelling with Soren or Ranulf. It doesn't make sense for him to marry someone and just have his travelling companion standing to the side. I also find the suggestion of Ike having a one-night stand very implausible given how Ike has been characterised. In conclusion, I believe that in a universe where Ike SOLO ending occurs is a universe where Ike has a descendant. In a universe where he achieves a paired ending, Awakening's canon does not occur and Priam ceases to exist. Priam's existence shows one of many possibilities for what Ike eventually goes on to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anacybele Posted July 29, 2016 Share Posted July 29, 2016 Seriously? This again? Yeah, you're right that you're going to get roasted. I'm tired of this debate coming up, because it always results in the same thing. Nobody's opinions are going to change. Some people will believe Priam is canon and Ike did raise his own family and some people will believe the complete opposite. Let's just let people have their headcanons and opinions and beliefs, please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augestein Posted July 29, 2016 Share Posted July 29, 2016 (edited) This might be long, so possible warning. I'm going to be honest. As someone that has written things with branching paths, nothing pains me more than seeing people say things are "canon," or not "canon." It honestly hurts to see people deny that your efforts as a writer mean absolutely nothing despite the fact that you may have slaved away over alternative paths to give the players a choice of what they wanted to do or how they wanted a story to progress. It's one thing to say that a path is preferable, but it just hits this solid middle ground between saddening and irritating to see so many people insist that you, the writer, *meant* for this path to obviously lean in a certain direction or you love all created branches equally. Especially in Fire Emblem's universe where there's no follow-up to any of the branching paths. In the case of Awakening, the fact that anyone would even bother to argue that anything is canon is absurd. The game brings the audience into a world where both time travel and alternate dimensions are clearly a thing, so arguing that anything is canon really gets thrown to the wayside. Priam can easily exist without Ike reproducing at all. For starters, blue hair is very common in the Fire Emblem universe. So him having blue hair isn't even a clue. Second, the radiant hero is a legend in Awakening's world, so it's just as easy to see Priam as a very theatrical / insane man that believes himself to be Ike's descendant but really isn't. Third, he could just as easily be from Mist as well, and just claims that he's a descendant of Ike because that sounds better than "I'm a descendant of Mist, the sister of Ike," (and probably makes more sense because he doesn't actually know Aether , but instead knows Sol and Luna-- which come close, but aren't actually Aether). Ike's lack of confirmation or even real acknowledgement of Priam doesn't help either. There's plenty of reasons that Priam can exist without being Ike's child or him being Ike's child considering that all Ike has to do is find the Outerrealm Gate and cross over to a different world-- heck, Ike doesn't even need to do that, any one of Ike's descendants could do that. I don't see anything wrong with Ike eventually settling down and raising a family. Perhaps he did end up fancying a young merchant girl and having a child with her, perhaps not. Why does it matter? The game clearly allows for you to have Ike go traveling with Soren, Ranulf or no one. Just because he didn't end up with anyone in his army doesn't mean that he never settled down. Also, just because Ike left with Soren or Ranulf doesn't even mean that he didn't settle down with a lady there. The whole "Ike is gay" thing started because Ike only ended up with men, and ignored people that obviously had feelings for him like Lethe. And with Soren, he had a special conversation with him if he had an A rank, and no one else. As for supports, it doesn't necessarily treat any supports as having happened in the game. It just allows for enough space for relationships to form in the time span that PoR ended. You shouldn't argue things are canon or not unless they actually have evidence to contradict what happened ie, using Astrid and Makalov supports, obviously the C and A support version where Marcia is dead can never be canon, because even if Marcia died in your Path of Radiance playthrough, she will not be dead in Radiant Dawn, and since there's no plot line about people resurrecting, we can conclude that the game assumes she never died. People need to learn the difference between this , and "I really like this branching path so I'm going to argue that it's canon, because it's not just enough for me to personally like it, I have to say that my opinion is the correct one because other people might dare to prefer a different one." For instance, I don't think the Fates and Awakening support writers would be terribly happy to hear that all of those supports they wrote for Robin and Corrin were pointless ( I mean they kind of are but... That's neither here nor there :P) because the canon ending is ____. At this point, pretty much *everything* should be considered canon because of the realm gates. Seriously? This again? Yeah, you're right that you're going to get roasted. I'm tired of this debate coming up, because it always results in the same thing. Nobody's opinions are going to change. Some people will believe Priam is canon and Ike did raise his own family and some people will believe the complete opposite. Let's just let people have their headcanons and opinions and beliefs, please. I don't even see why people bother arguing this when they introduced the dimensions in Fire Emblem. I mean for cripes sake, we see that Selena has red hair, and she can't even get that hair in Awakening without codes. Edited July 29, 2016 by Augestein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anacybele Posted July 29, 2016 Share Posted July 29, 2016 At this point, pretty much *everything* should be considered canon because of the realm gates. Oh yeah, this 100% too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quintessence Posted July 29, 2016 Share Posted July 29, 2016 Oh my, this again. I think people put so much thought on Ike and Priam and miss the fact that Priam is merely fanservice content, which makes any argument in favor of this popular theory to be taken without any seriousness. I don't care whether it is canon if Ike left alone or left with Soren or whatever. As long as there is no true evidence about Priam being a descendant of Ike, I'll take these arguments lightly. In the script Priam says he might be the hypothetical descendant, and the rest is just rumors and legends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJ7009 Posted July 29, 2016 Author Share Posted July 29, 2016 Hmm... everyone is raising good points. The main reason I brought up this argument is to try and satisfy as many camps in this whole debate. I agree that trying to define what is 'canon' in Fire Emblem is difficult, since the whole thing with the game is that you get to choose your own canon. Who supports with who, what pairings are achieved are all based off player choices. I suppose whether Priam should be considered legitimate should also bare in mind this principle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moblin Major General Posted July 29, 2016 Share Posted July 29, 2016 Remember that multiverse theory is implied with Fire Emblem, as every time you replay the game, even the most minute decisions can technically create another universe. Whatever playthrough you get Priam is one where Ike had a child that continued on to Priam, like his paired ending with Lethe or a solo ending, or even Ana's headcanon of Ike x Elincia. Priam doesn't have to exist if you don't do his paralogue, just as the other spotpass paralogues don't have to be canon in a playthrough where you don't do them. What's canon is what is available to do in each game, meaning that Kris isn't necessarily canon if you prefer FE3. Edit Only grazed me this time, ninja. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raguna Posted July 29, 2016 Share Posted July 29, 2016 (edited) The Aether inheritance debate always sounds off to me considering that while Heroes can learn Sol and Great Knights Luna, only the royal family of Ylisse who become Great Lords and their daughters who inherit it have Aether. One could easily say Ike hooked up with one of Marth's descendants and the skill passed through there and Priam is just a weaker off-shot of the royal family from there who more closely remembered his relation to Ike more than the royal family itself. I apologize, I think I just opened a whole new theory right there. Edited July 29, 2016 by Raguna Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowofchaos Posted July 29, 2016 Share Posted July 29, 2016 (edited) The blue haired Hero of the Blue Flame hooking up with the line of the original blue haired lord. BLUE EVERYWHERE Edited July 29, 2016 by shadowofchaos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maybe Posted July 29, 2016 Share Posted July 29, 2016 the true ending: ike goes to archanea and hooks up with aimee who evidently has lived there for centuries Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moblin Major General Posted July 29, 2016 Share Posted July 29, 2016 The Aether inheritance debate always sounds off to me considering that while Heroes can learn Sol and Great Knights Luna, only the royal family of Ylisse who become Great Lords and their daughters who inherit it have Aether. One could easily say Ike hooked up with one of Marth's descendants and the skill passed through there and Priam is just a weaker off-shot of the royal family from there who more closely remembered his relation to Ike more than the royal family itself. I apologize, I think I just opened a whole new theory right there. Tellius takes place long before even Jugdral. Ike's descendants might have a hand in Chalphy, Altea, Ostia, and maybe even Renais. (Jackie Chan mind blown). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anacybele Posted July 29, 2016 Share Posted July 29, 2016 (edited) Remember that multiverse theory is implied with Fire Emblem, as every time you replay the game, even the most minute decisions can technically create another universe. Whatever playthrough you get Priam is one where Ike had a child that continued on to Priam, like his paired ending with Lethe or a solo ending, or even Ana's headcanon of Ike x Elincia. Priam doesn't have to exist if you don't do his paralogue, just as the other spotpass paralogues don't have to be canon in a playthrough where you don't do them. What's canon is what is available to do in each game, meaning that Kris isn't necessarily canon if you prefer FE3. Edit Only grazed me this time, ninja. Ike doesn't have a paired ending with Lethe or Elincia, fyi, but this post is pretty much spot on otherwise. Even if the endings don't actually exist in-game, the multiverse implications imply that they still could've happened in some other reality of RD. Hell, Ike might not have even left in that reality while one of his descendants did and THAT leads to Priam! You just never know with this theory. EDIT: Where is it stated that Tellius takes place before Jugdral? Or any of the continents, for that matter, other than Ylisse? I've not heard anything about an official established FE timeline. Edited July 29, 2016 by Anacybele Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augestein Posted July 29, 2016 Share Posted July 29, 2016 (edited) The Aether inheritance debate always sounds off to me considering that while Heroes can learn Sol and Great Knights Luna, only the royal family of Ylisse who become Great Lords and their daughters who inherit it have Aether. One could easily say Ike hooked up with one of Marth's descendants and the skill passed through there and Priam is just a weaker off-shot of the royal family from there who more closely remembered his relation to Ike more than the royal family itself. I apologize, I think I just opened a whole new theory right there. And even weirder is Ike isn't a great lord and knew Aether. Ike is a Vanguard and he doesn't know how to use spears. Ike is a troll. Or maybe Priam is. Clearly he inherited it from his father. Edited July 29, 2016 by Augestein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anacybele Posted July 29, 2016 Share Posted July 29, 2016 (edited) I think that was just IS wanting to keep Aether to the lord/main characters, which Ike, Chrom, and Lucina all were. Lucina is only a lord in class, but she had the class. Edited July 29, 2016 by Anacybele Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ping Posted July 29, 2016 Share Posted July 29, 2016 Honestly, I find "canon" discussions about Fire Emblem pairings a bit silly, simply because the writers (at least since FE6) seem to avoid to make any pairing contradict anything at all. I mean, it's pretty much irrelevant for the plot of FE6 whether Sain or Lowen or Random Villager #31 is Wolt's father or even if Roy is 1/4 dragon or not. And Augestein already explained that Priam doesn't shoot down any theory about Ike's sexual orientation and activities. And I think that this is exactly what the authors had in mind instead of any 'hidden truth': Every player can pair up whoever the fuck they want without future games disrupting their fantasies. Sure, individual writers might have their own preferred pairings, but I don't think that for example the Tellus writers gave the Awakening team a detailed genealogy for Priam. ^^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Light Strategist Posted July 29, 2016 Share Posted July 29, 2016 I don't even see why people bother arguing this when they introduced the dimensions in Fire Emblem. I mean for cripes sake, we see that Selena has red hair, and she can't even get that hair in Awakening without codes. She's also the one in Hidden Truths 1 that complains about her hair colour being changed, stating that she likes her old hair colour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkDestr0yer61 Posted July 29, 2016 Share Posted July 29, 2016 You're entitled to your opinion, but unfortunately all it is just going to be is headcanon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunwoo Posted July 29, 2016 Share Posted July 29, 2016 (edited) Priam doesn't exist. He's just a non-canon fanservice bait callback to Tellius in the hell that is known as Awakening's Spotpass. Edited July 29, 2016 by Sunwoo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sentacotus Posted July 31, 2016 Share Posted July 31, 2016 The blue haired Hero of the Blue Flame hooking up with the line of the original blue haired lord. BLUE EVERYWHERE Blue Balls.... I think that was just IS wanting to keep Aether to the lord/main characters, which Ike, Chrom, and Lucina all were. Lucina is only a lord in class, but she had the class. Yeah I'm 99% sure thats the reason why. As far as whats "canon" well short answer is nothing is. Unless IS comes out and revises the ending in a remake (highly unlikely) it will be left up to the fan's imaginations as to what happened to him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricaofRenais Posted July 31, 2016 Share Posted July 31, 2016 I always figured Priam was related to a branded orphan Ike adopted when he got tired of traveling around and he taught that kid everything he knew. But it is all up to the players to decide and no answer is wrong or right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hero of the Fire Emblems Posted January 2, 2017 Share Posted January 2, 2017 I like how absolutely fucking NO ONE brings up the possibility of surrogacy which seems to be the Occam's razor answer to this... I also want to throw out two things: one, FE13 does very much allude to FE1/3 being non canon in favor of the remakes due to many offhand comments and further details such as Hauteclere's existence, and two, the English language games seem to have kind of fucked up with the translation (yes, both 13 and 14) because the word used by both Chrom to MU13 about Priam and from Anankos to Owain et al. can potentially be translated as roughly "distant past" in the context it's used (it's a really fucking vague word anyway), so everything except possibly (probably in fact) the GBA games seems to be one world (which is fine by me because Kurthnaga and Asheunera's foreboding comment about humanity being in peril again made me kind of lean on Tellius Pre dating Jugdral anyway). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snowy_One Posted January 2, 2017 Share Posted January 2, 2017 I like how absolutely fucking NO ONE brings up the possibility of surrogacy which seems to be the Occam's razor answer to this... I also want to throw out two things: one, FE13 does very much allude to FE1/3 being non canon in favor of the remakes due to many offhand comments and further details such as Hauteclere's existence, and two, the English language games seem to have kind of fucked up with the translation (yes, both 13 and 14) because the word used by both Chrom to MU13 about Priam and from Anankos to Owain et al. can potentially be translated as roughly "distant past" in the context it's used (it's a really fucking vague word anyway), so everything except possibly (probably in fact) the GBA games seems to be one world (which is fine by me because Kurthnaga and Asheunera's foreboding comment about humanity being in peril again made me kind of lean on Tellius Pre dating Jugdral anyway). The problem with surrogacy is that it brings nothing to the discussion at all. Ike could have become the surrogate father of an entire orphanage and then made the children fight to the death to decide who would carry on his name as far as 'canon' could be concerned. It's also why people often dislike talking about him having a kid with a random village woman. It's not that they *couldn't* happen, Ike could have slept with an entire village of women after all, it's that it brings nothing to the discussion. Figuring out if there is more evidence for Ike solo, Ike/Soren, Ike/Ranulf, or Ike/anyone else is far more engaging and interesting. IMO I believe Ike/Mia to be the... ending with the most going for it aside from Ike having a child with an unnamed women once he passed through, but that's an actual discussion there. Here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radiant head Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 lol worst thread you could necro tbh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NinjaMonkey Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 (edited) Priam doesn't exist. He's just a non-canon fanservice bait callback to Tellius in the hell that is known as Awakening's Spotpass. Thing is, no one at IS has come out and said that the Spotpass paralogues aren't canon. Edited January 4, 2017 by NinjaMonkey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CT075 Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 i'm firmly of the opinion that ike doesn't exist and the character we know as "ike" is actually corrin in disguise, sent back in time to prevent the tellius catastrophe that started the elibian scouring you can read all about it in my new fanfiction coming soon starring my original character Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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