Jotari's Three Tier Branching Class Tree (now with Engage classes)

[Jotari]

5 hours ago, Andem1 said:

Which classes are genderlocked? (If there are genderlocks, which I assume there are)

I'm a modern man. I believe in equality for all digital exp sacks.

[Andem1]

Quote

I'm a modern man. I believe in equality for all digital exp sacks.

FEMALE "GRAAAAAAH" *crits*!!?

 

[SMinairo]

This is honestly very cool, it must have been quite the effort to connect to many classes so well, you did a great job.

Though, as a really nitpicky suggestion, I'd say "Swiss Guard" should have a different name, as it implies the existence of Switzerland lmao. Since IS sometimes takes names from real countries it could happen in the future, but it would be weirdly specific for a three that seems to be for the series as a whole, it'd be like having samurai instead of myrmidon. Something like "Pontifical Guard" or, since you already have Greil and Black Knight as classes, "Apostle/Apostolic guard" might be better imo.

End of the nitpickyness lmao.

 

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

On 8/3/2023 at 8:03 PM, SMinairo said:

Though, as a really nitpicky suggestion, I'd say "Swiss Guard" should have a different name, as it implies the existence of Switzerland lmao. Since IS sometimes takes names from real countries it could happen in the future, but it would be weirdly specific for a three that seems to be for the series as a whole, it'd be like having samurai instead of myrmidon. Something like "Pontifical Guard" or, since you already have Greil and Black Knight as classes, "Apostle/Apostolic guard" might be better imo.

Simplest name would be "Holy Guard", which actually has precedence as a Fire Emblem title. Specifically, for Sanaki's elite Falcon Knights. So giving it to a hybrid infantry class wouldn't exactly match, but it could be seen as a funny little call-back.

Also, I just discovered the "Koga" class. A flying ninja, on a kite? Now, that's funny.

[Jotari]

4 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Simplest name would be "Holy Guard", which actually has precedence as a Fire Emblem title. Specifically, for Sanaki's elite Falcon Knights. So giving it to a hybrid infantry class wouldn't exactly match, but it could be seen as a funny little call-back.

Also, I just discovered the "Koga" class. A flying ninja, on a kite? Now, that's funny.

I'm glad my meager art skills means its recognizable as a kite XD

Generally speaking though, one thing I like about Heroes is that they've gotten a bit more creative in regards to what a flying unit can be. Mainline Fire Emblem only has flying mounts. Why not witches on broomsticks and levitating mages?

Edited August 23, 2023 by Jotari

[lenticular]

14 hours ago, Jotari said:

Generally speaking though, one thing I like about Heroes is that they've gotten a bit more creative in regards to what a flying unit can be. Mainline Fire Emblem only has flying mounts. Why not witches on broomsticks and levitating mages?

If they ever do a more technically advanced magepunk-ish faction again (like the Agarthans in Three Houses), then I want ornithopters and autogyros.  You can't tell me they're any more out of place to the setting than the giant mechas that we got.

[Imuabicus der Fertige]

I´m kinda of the opinion that magic/physical hybrid classes should either be lore bound to a nation or as a personal class to a character.

So maybe Camilla isn´t a Malig Knight but The Malig Knight and her weapon could ´ve been the magic damage equivalent axe to Siegfried and the Raijinto (real strong Bolt Axe, I guess). Same with Hinoka but a Bolt Lance, though with another class.

I´m gonna say, the more I think about it, the less I like FEs using class names like Myrmidon, Paladin, Assassin at the same time, Axe Fighter/Rider, Sword Fighter/Rider, Lance Fighter/Rider just don´t have even remotely the same ring to it.

I also don´t think any healer class should be stuck with just healing. At least let them have a butter knife. For that sweet dodge stat.

 

I´ve also been thinking a new class of bows, the DS inspired Greatbow: high damage, high range, can´t double, a wee bit inaccurate maybe, impacting the enemies movement range.

Spoiler

 

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, Imuabicus der Fertige said:

I´m gonna say, the more I think about it, the less I like FEs using class names like Myrmidon, Paladin, Assassin at the same time, Axe Fighter/Rider, Sword Fighter/Rider, Lance Fighter/Rider just don´t have even remotely the same ring to it.

I'm not sure what you're saying here. Are you saying you dislike both Myrmidon and Sword Fighter as names? If so, what should we call them?

[Imuabicus der Fertige]

1 minute ago, Jotari said:

I'm not sure what you're saying here. Are you saying you dislike both Myrmidon and Sword Fighter as names? If so, what should we call them?

I dislike "real world" inspired class names that go beyond the scope or have nothing to do with the real world implication, is a way I´d put it I think. I´m fine with Halberdier, Archer, even Sniper etc. but stuff like Troubadour, Valkyrie, Melusine feel strange. I also dislike it when they give names like Aura, Siegfried, Wille Glanz (a literal nonsense name), Excalibur and so on, to items though I wouldn´t be able to explain why. At the same time, Bishops wielding holy magic and staves is also fine with me, weirdly. Similarily I wouldn´t like Hussars, Curassiers, Landsknecht, Doppelsöldner, Dragoon, Keshig, Janissary and the like, because these names refer to more or less specific troops (or are just outside the time setting of FE´s so far anyway).

I´m fine with Sword/Axe/Lance Fighter/Rider/Armor at the same time I think it´s a tedious if not worse a boring naming system. I thought a base class Soldier with access to sword, axe and lance specialises into Sword/Axe/Lance Fighter who then promote into their final form of... whatever one choses. 

[Jotari]

2 hours ago, Imuabicus der Fertige said:

I dislike "real world" inspired class names that go beyond the scope or have nothing to do with the real world implication, is a way I´d put it I think. I´m fine with Halberdier, Archer, even Sniper etc. but stuff like Troubadour, Valkyrie, Melusine feel strange. I also dislike it when they give names like Aura, Siegfried, Wille Glanz (a literal nonsense name), Excalibur and so on, to items though I wouldn´t be able to explain why. At the same time, Bishops wielding holy magic and staves is also fine with me, weirdly. Similarily I wouldn´t like Hussars, Curassiers, Landsknecht, Doppelsöldner, Dragoon, Keshig, Janissary and the like, because these names refer to more or less specific troops (or are just outside the time setting of FE´s so far anyway).

I´m fine with Sword/Axe/Lance Fighter/Rider/Armor at the same time I think it´s a tedious if not worse a boring naming system. I thought a base class Soldier with access to sword, axe and lance specialises into Sword/Axe/Lance Fighter who then promote into their final form of... whatever one choses. 

The only one that really bothers me specifically is Knight. Since knights are just as much associated with their cavalry aspects (and indeed is the origin of their name and stuff) than the armoured aspects. So much so that most of the characters that are knights within the narrative of the games themselves are more often Cavalry and Paladins. And in Japanese, I believe, they've always been called Armoured Knights.

The issue with Sword/Axe/Lance Fighter that I see is that, in addition to being very generic, it's kind of limiting. By having more distinct (if not entirely accurate names) you get to have stuff like Myrmidons and Mercenaries. Two different sword infantry that nonetheless play very differently based on their stat lines. Even if Mercenary is a very generic term for a large variety of different soldiers and Myrmidon is a weird throwback to ancient Greece that makes no sense, it beats having Fast Sword Fighter and Bulky Sword Fighter.

[Imuabicus der Fertige]

20 minutes ago, Jotari said:

The only one that really bothers me specifically is Knight. Since knights are just as much associated with their cavalry aspects (and indeed is the origin of their name and stuff) than the armoured aspects. So much so that most of the characters that are knights within the narrative of the games themselves are more often Cavalry and Paladins. And in Japanese, I believe, they've always been called Armoured Knights.

mrw no squire, no heavy bois

20 minutes ago, Jotari said:

The issue with Sword/Axe/Lance Fighter that I see is that, in addition to being very generic, it's kind of limiting. By having more distinct (if not entirely accurate names) you get to have stuff like Myrmidons and Mercenaries. Two different sword infantry that nonetheless play very differently based on their stat lines. Even if Mercenary is a very generic term for a large variety of different soldiers and Myrmidon is a weird throwback to ancient Greece that makes no sense, it beats having Fast Sword Fighter and Bulky Sword Fighter.

Eh, Hinata/Hana, Arthur/Charlotte, Setsuna/Takumi, Effie/Bennie, Hinoka/Subaki, Odin/Nyx, Saizo/Kaze/Kagero, Hayato/Orochi (growth unit Hayato may be) are all pretty different units in my opinion, even when considering the quality gaps in retainer-lord (aforementioned Setsuna/Takumi, Hinoka/Subaki but especially Beruka/Camilla, Peri/Xander) 

Emphasis on personal growths over class growths and correspondingly distributed high bases should make for Navarre/Ogmas scenarios aplenty, even with only one (base) class.

Though terrain costs, individual modifiers (think the Fates S rank classes bonuses) might get lost, though base classes got no business having the latter I think.

[Jotari]

10 minutes ago, Imuabicus der Fertige said:

mrw no squire, no heavy bois

Eh, Hinata/Hana, Arthur/Charlotte, Setsuna/Takumi, Effie/Bennie, Hinoka/Subaki, Odin/Nyx, Saizo/Kaze/Kagero, Hayato/Orochi (growth unit Hayato may be) are all pretty different units in my opinion, even when considering the quality gaps in retainer-lord (aforementioned Setsuna/Takumi, Hinoka/Subaki but especially Beruka/Camilla, Peri/Xander) 

Emphasis on personal growths over class growths and correspondingly distributed high bases should make for Navarre/Ogmas scenarios aplenty, even with only one (base) class.

Though terrain costs, individual modifiers (think the Fates S rank classes bonuses) might get lost, though base classes got no business having the latter I think.

Well that's the wayit was originally. Navarre and Ogma were in fact the same class. But they specified them for a reason. In addition to stat lines and terrain you also have skills and, more importantly, promotion options. Swordmaster and Hero are definitely very different. Though Thracia got around that last one by just having units of the same class promote into different class for no really explained reason.

[Imuabicus der Fertige]

12 hours ago, Jotari said:

Swordmaster and Hero are definitely very different.

Hero has Handaxe, SM has... Rutger? 

I´m looking at the og Ogma/Navarre and Navarre seems like an almost strict downgrade? Aside from weapon level. And in SD, they even have the same weapon level, but Navarre gained 8 Lck and Ogma +2 lvl and +2 HP? The hell happened here?

[Jotari]

57 minutes ago, Imuabicus der Fertige said:

Hero has Handaxe, SM has... Rutger? 

I´m looking at the og Ogma/Navarre and Navarre seems like an almost strict downgrade? Aside from weapon level. And in SD, they even have the same weapon level, but Navarre gained 8 Lck and Ogma +2 lvl and +2 HP? The hell happened here?

Swordmasters can also use Wao Dao in Shadow Dragon while other swordies can't...if that matters.