Ace Attorney Mafia - Game Over (Won the Lawsuit!)

[Zkirsche]

Elie there is an actual case on me right now if you want to comment on that. I do wish that GP didn't publicly give you that way out but I guess I'll have to accept it.

##Unvote

##Vote: Proto

Going down the shit list boyz. Inb4 scumteam is Riptor/Poly/Eury.

SB should also address my defence in #55 imo.

[Elieson]

Elie there is an actual case on me right now if you want to comment on that. I do wish that GP didn't publicly give you that way out but I guess I'll have to accept it.

I think the case on you is 99% meta and 1% theorycraft. You know, all the things that make for a case I disagree with on D1 casing.

[Refa]

can there be iso's in the op

[Jaybee]

i'm not fully feeling anything regarding Elie? I see a lot of overthinking & rolespec but that's not necessarily a scummy thing to do.

now i can totally get behind a ##Vote: Proto because i dislike the logic behind that vote

1. says he thinks kirsche is joking about the miller claim
2. kirsche says he isn't joking
3. votes kirsche

first off, ignoring some information that actually affects the game in favour of continuing RVS, then backtracking to throw down a vote on kirsche (after a SB vote onto kirsche). that's not exactly helpful to us?

---

i would like to hear more from Quote aside from a lot of gut vibes and meta

BASED ON ROLESPEC i don't think kirsche is scummy? like either he's town and a legit miller, or he's fucking ballsy scum. though this kind of shit is like really high risk low reward so i can't see a good reason to try things like that. ehh.

[Refa]

Not SB but Kirsche, I don't get your lynch priority at all. Yeah, changing your mind is fine but I don't get what about SB's/Elie's posts made you feel better about them.

##Unvote (Sad Kirsche)

Since when do you need to vote for somebody to get an answer out of them? You flat out said you assumed my thought process, acknowledged it, but still maintained your vote. This isn't normal. Methinks your fixated on me, and while I can understand why, parking your vote on me feels too easy.

Actually, everything I said about your thought process still holds true...the only part I was wrong about was that your post didn't mention any suspicions (since it was implied). Regardless, don't like this post because you're misrepresenting my vote on you. You're my only not sheeped scumread, you've made like...three posts? (with your only actual content being a case on me which I'm commenting on right now), and you're suggesting that equates to my voting you for almost half a day phase equates to parking on you.

[Elieson]

Yes

I feel like you with your activity levels (compared to mine especially) would have more to go on than just my vote on kirsche. Am I really all that you find scummy right now, and/or am I really all that you find worthy of a vote right now?

That is the part I find questionable.

[Elieson]

[spoiler=ISOs]

Riptor
Arctic Fox
Quote
Eurykins
Jaybee
Sad kirsche
Green Poet
Rainbow/Proto
Polydeuces (if Poly is TheGlassBeast then use this) TheGlassBeast
Toren
Elieson
SB
Refa

[Refa]

Yes. My activity levels may be killer relatively but most of the playerbase has not posted, half of the people that I wasn't sure on still need to give me replies, and I'm not bothered by the rest of the people who are posting.

i'm not fully feeling anything regarding Elie? I see a lot of overthinking & rolespec but that's not necessarily a scummy thing to do.

now i can totally get behind a ##Vote: Proto because i dislike the logic behind that vote

1. says he thinks kirsche is joking about the miller claim
2. kirsche says he isn't joking
3. votes kirsche

first off, ignoring some information that actually affects the game in favour of continuing RVS, then backtracking to throw down a vote on kirsche (after a SB vote onto kirsche). that's not exactly helpful to us?

Overthinking and rolespeccing isn't scummy, but I'm at least not scumreading him for that. For me, he reads as just making a vote on Kirsche for a perceived scumslip but he simultaneously put way too much thought into it and not enough thought into it at the same time (e.g. his original reasoning is overthought, but then he put no effort into being like "is this actually a scumslip"). Also I don't like his case on me.

Wait, how did Proto backtrack? How would you expect him to help more at the time? I have my own issues with Proto (that he needs to answer so I can get an actual read off on the guy) but these don't seem valid to me.

Also would like you to answer my question from earlier.

[Refa]

[spoiler=ISOs]

[redacted]

Whew, thanks.

Going down the shit list boyz. Inb4 scumteam is Riptor/Poly/Eury.

Also forgot to reply to this earlier but that's why I'm already salty about this game. Mafia could just not ever post and have a decent chance of winning which is just insane (unless they're already not posting, in which case well played).

[Elieson]

It's worked dozens of times before, depressingly.

Alternatively, instead of voting for Refa (because given this), since now I'm actually ok with his vote on me given the game's state and his feelings, I could throw a vote down on somebody who downright promised something and didn't deliver.

##Unvote (refa)

##Vote Eurykins

I don't think Kirsche is scum, and if he is, there's no effective way to pursue him today regardless.

I don't think Proto's done anything all that scummy

I feel better about Refa

As for why Eury?

1: If she doesn't return to post before phase end as promised, well shit but that's inconvenient

2: If she ends up pulling a Shinori and promises to post but just keeps not, and turns out to be scum (ala her play in SB's FE12 Mafia) then it's a slot I wouldn't miss.

---

Refa, no witty screenshots or pics yet? Now that's how I know you're scum

[Elieson]

OK I think pressing the Down key on my keyboard throws around my cursor and it's why my things are vanishing randomly.

1: If she doesn't return to post before phase end as promised, well shit but that's inconvenient but we could at least determine usefulness of a vote on her afterwards.

I meant to say this but i couldn't get it to type back there. I'm reinstalling Chrome

[solrocknroll]

thanks Elie for the ISOs btw

[solrocknroll]

Polydeuces and Riptor have been prodded.

[Ken Masters]

Holy crap, I am so sorry.

I had no idea the game had started.

I'll be reading, brb

[Eurykins]

So apparently long days/nights kinda made me susceptible to falling asleep once I got home. Sleep is nice, if only for a few hours.

Looking at the pages so far:

1. Kirsche's first posts wrt Miller claim don't feel abnormal to me, even with the whole confusion of the rules and such. I also don't see it as being a gambit from scum-side, unless they didn't expect people to nitpick based on the rules (but even then, that'd seem pretty careless of scum!Kirsche IMO).

2. GP's vote on Kirsche based on the rules, in itself, isn't bad. I don't fully agree with it, but I can see where the logic stemmed from.

3. I feel like everyone casting theoretics based on the rules thereafter (whether Miller fully conflicts with the rule or not, if redirects exist or not, etc.) is making the game more drawn out and actually less productive than general questioning lines, tbh. Seems posts were circulating around more on theory crafting and hypotheticals than anything else, which didn't seem that productive to me. PEDIT: I'm gonna be ISO surfing/reading closer into those posting back and forth on this topic later, when I have more time.

4. Don't quite understand this question towards the miller role. It has (and may always be?) been noted as a passive role that makes a townie (or otherwise non-scum team member) read as scum to a scan by someone else? What else is there to know about whether someone is a miller or not- it's not something that can just be toggled on/off (and there would be literally zero reason as to someone wanting to turn something like that on)?

5. Elie jumping off and running with the implications of "no redirects" and such from the rules is a dangerous thing to try and assume/role-spec. The rule in itself, even with the several clarification posts from the mod, is actually pretty gray and vague, which leaves a lot of room with what can and cannot exist. Once again, I feel like the whole theory crafting/thought process here and the time taken to elaborate on such isn't really scum hunting a whole lot, nor does it really help progress the game. (So it feels like nothing more than fluff reading a lot of these posts tbh.)

> Part of the reason why I don't care for the above is the fact that I don't believe that redirects violate the rule at all, in terms of not actually altering the results in a way that would be considered fully tampering/customizing the end results. Just because a scan/action got moved to someone else doesn't automatically mean that the action/scan got affected in the end in an unnatural/customized way, imo. Just would remain as accurate as if the person with the role had targeted them him/herself, that is all.

7. I feel like town!Elie would've had more actual thoughts/content by this point (around page 4), and wouldn't have just been caught up in the spec'ing. Also the vote on Refa (for Refa voting him) doesn't seem like a good vote because, from what I can see/read in Refa's ISO, there's more than enough reason to be voting Elie from his PoV without it being considered simply 'easy' or 'vote sitting' that'd otherwise seem lazy from his side.

8. Lol, Elie vote on me. I suppose I can understand the "promised to post but hasn't yet" concept (as I am guilty of falling asleep after I posted 'cause I blacked super hard), but this comes off to me as being pretty easy of a vote. While I don't actually mind it (as one could infer that he's prodding me for my thoughts/content), it could be noted as him simply gunning for an inactive player slot over an active one, which can be pretty lazy, gameplay/scum-hunting wise. I also feel that his post prior (regarding unvoting Kirsche and backing off of him) almost feels a bit forced and a means of distancing himself from Kirsche- I don't fully buy him conveniently missing a mod post like that, nor does his notion of " I guess I'll buy it because there isn't much reason not to." read well to me. Maybe it's the tone or wording of it, but it doesn't sound like he's truly convinced at all that Kirsche isn't scum, but is just backing off because (as he himself stated), he doesn't see a means of putting forth a case worthwhile on Kirsche today. Somehow I always remembered Elie's slot of being more headstrong and persistent with his concerns/cases, which is why his posts atm are striking me as more and more off than his usual town gameplay.

Oops, my post ended up cluttered and messy and long to read. Tried avoiding quotes to keep it shorter, but in the end it didn't help. RIP. :/

I'll be gone for an hour or two- need to do some errand runs. Gonna be re-reading through ISO's to get a better feel for the posts coming out when I get home, so refraining from vote dropping until then (there's no actual reason for me to vote Elie at this time- he has enough attention/prodding as it is, and I am still unsure as to why his gameplay is so chaotic atm. Cannot figure out if I'm getting caught up over "gameplay I wouldn't consider as being good", or if him being off are actual scum slips/habits.) He can be considered the person who is pinging me the most currently, but it could be due to him probably being one of the loudest (in terms of questionable content) of the posters so far, at least to me.

[Elieson]

8. Lol, Elie vote on me. I suppose I can understand the "promised to post but hasn't yet" concept (as I am guilty of falling asleep after I posted 'cause I blacked super hard), but this comes off to me as being pretty easy of a vote. While I don't actually mind it (as one could infer that he's prodding me for my thoughts/content), it could be noted as him simply gunning for an inactive player slot over an active one, which can be pretty lazy, gameplay/scum-hunting wise. I also feel that his post prior (regarding unvoting Kirsche and backing off of him) almost feels a bit forced and a means of distancing himself from Kirsche- I don't fully buy him conveniently missing a mod post like that, nor does his notion of " I guess I'll buy it because there isn't much reason not to." read well to me. Maybe it's the tone or wording of it, but it doesn't sound like he's truly convinced at all that Kirsche isn't scum, but is just backing off because (as he himself stated), he doesn't see a means of putting forth a case worthwhile on Kirsche today. Somehow I always remembered Elie's slot of being more headstrong and persistent with his concerns/cases, which is why his posts atm are striking me as more and more off than his usual town gameplay.

Oops, my post ended up cluttered and messy and long to read. Tried avoiding quotes to keep it shorter, but in the end it didn't help. RIP. :/

I'll be gone for an hour or two- need to do some errand runs. Gonna be re-reading through ISO's to get a better feel for the posts coming out when I get home, so refraining from vote dropping until then (there's no actual reason for me to vote Elie at this time- he has enough attention/prodding as it is, and I am still unsure as to why his gameplay is so chaotic atm. Cannot figure out if I'm getting caught up over "gameplay I wouldn't consider as being good", or if him being off are actual scum slips/habits.) He can be considered the person who is pinging me the most currently, but it could be due to him probably being one of the loudest (in terms of questionable content) of the posters so far, at least to me.

I AM NOT A LOUD PLAYER! I SHOUT AT A PERFECTLY NORMAL VOLUME!

That aside, I'd rather lynch an inactive on D1 than lynch nobody on D1, and I don't have enough confidence in any reads to really dive into a case that I could define as my own, because there's little on the table that isn't Discussion of Mechanics .

Over that though, I'd rather lynch an inactive who says they'll be back with reads, and isn't back with reads.

One thought. Until we have people getting results back from the mod, for all we know, any cop would just be told that their results of X action are "kirsche is aligned with Mafia" or they could just get "Mafia result" (using kirsche as the example). The latter implies that a redirection could've occured, and because of the ambiguous wording, we wouldn't know. It's impossible to pursue right now but needs to remain fresh on everybody's minds until it's confirmed because it's potential case material until proven otherwise.

Also a question: Do you think I was trying to push for kirsche=lying scum & not miller even after acknowledging the mod post? I didn't see it and admittedly wasn't paying that much attention during the early stages of the game, but if you think I was pretending to ignore a mod-post, that is a stretch.

[Elieson]

Tampering here is considered to be when another player gets ahold of results and changes them to something else.

Again, I interpret this as screwing with results, which again, based on results wording, could be Either Or.

Goddamnit i'll just ask in my PM

[Ken Masters]

So having read this wonderful shitstorm regarding Mafia-meat and words definitions, I'm mostly sure that we have a day-1 Mafia slip and it's glorious.

Man you can tell how awful SF's meta is right now when people seriously consider miller as something that is tampering.

Except Millers are, by the very definition of the role, investigations tamperers. It's the whole deal of a miller. Resorting to diminishing the "meta" as a way to guilt trip the people against you is just a nice little bait.

Need more tailors and drug dealers imo, show you nerds what REAL misinformation is. The rule not applying to millers means that there's no roles like the ones I just mentioned, it's really not that hard. Heck it's modconfirmed lmao.

Again, diminishing language to attempt to make a solid argument seem "feeble" based on assumptions of the mod's intention.

Why would the host bail out someone for not reading the rules if I was maf and I slipped? Not to mention this assumes that I'm the type to bitch about this until the mod caves to my will. I'd like to think I'm more reasonable than that, especially as I would be defo at fault and not necessarily doomed if I could convince people that miller isn't really a tampering role.

Implying we should assume that a person playing a game about lies and fake-outs will always retain the same characteristics no matter the situation like a robot. This statement is not only, again, attempting to guilt trip the accusers, but also to stablish himself as the "logic" side of the balance, when in reality, Occam's Razor tells us that is far more likely that Mr Kirsche is the one at fault, and not athe mod.

SB confirmed scum trying to lurk his way out of relevance imo, lynch here. Couple of town reads but not interested in explaining them. I swear Elie always has super dumb arguments but I can't remember if scum!Elie does this or if it's not telling of alignment.

Implying someone's confirmed anything on day 1
Adressing previous behaviours of players as a solid argument, when it's been proven time after time that it's never a solid lead because people will intentionally change behaviours to mislead.

Hold up @GP: Did the mod actually tell you millers couldn't exist? In those words? That's basically bastard modding now.

Lampshading the mod instead of adressing the obvious conflict in the hypothetical situation that he himself created.

This whole affair of argumenting by not argumenting is a classic damage control on Mafia players. I'm more than willing to take all the blame if this backfires.

Honest town mistakes happen, but people forget that honest mafia mistakes happen too.

I'm inclined to belive that this is an example of the latter.

And even if Kirsche ends up being a mistake, it's a Miller that we would lose. It's a win/win for the Town regardless.

##Vote: Sad Kirsche

[Elieson]

And even if Kirsche ends up being a mistake, it's a Miller that we would lose. It's a win/win for the Town regardless.

Except that if kirsche is town & miller, then it's mixed in terms of benefits to the game, since town is being removed from the game regardless of why. I see where you're coming from, but lynching town means we're not lynching scum. Don't equate that with a win/win scenario. All it does is offer clarity for future options regarding lynch options and roles with their targets.

[Ken Masters]

Except that if kirsche is town & miller, then it's mixed in terms of benefits to the game, since town is being removed from the game regardless of why. I see where you're coming from, but lynching town means we're not lynching scum. Don't equate that with a win/win scenario. All it does is offer clarity for future options regarding lynch options and roles with their targets.

I'll debate on that.

Context: It's Day 1---> No 100% leads

---> No real scum confirm

---> Possibility of lynching Town is very high on a random vote.

Solutions: Lynch inactives ---> Possibility of lynching Town is very high

---> No real information gathered from voting patterns

---> Easy excuse (just did it because everyone else did)

---> Poissibility of lynching a power role is medium

Lynch Kirsche ----> Suspected by quite a lot of people to be Scum

----> Claimed a role that is impossible to test

----> Possibility of lynching Town is uncertain

----> Miller claim grants him the validity of a VT, the least harmful Town lynch for Town

Objectively speaking, Kirsche is my best bet on Day 1

[ZoesMad]

Not Playing

Willing to sub after the 17th should it be needed

[Zkirsche]

Not SB but Kirsche, I don't get your lynch priority at all. Yeah, changing your mind is fine but I don't get what about SB's/Elie's posts made you feel better about them.

Until there are more posts having a lynch priority is dumb and will only serve to make me tunnel more. SB made a semi-decent case against me (one that you said was sheepable) and is willing to explain his thoughts in a reasonable manner. This means he is already 100% better to keep around than half the playerbase. My vote on Elie was mostly a prod vote anyway #noshame because I know he'd be about enough to see it and will definitely notice a vote on him (easier to see than mod posts apparently). Proto is actually bad though. Inactive with scummy posts like his weird interaction with my miller claim, hence I am voting him.

While I get where you're coming from why is Elie's thought process non-town? I strongly disagree with much of the logic he used but if he missed the mod post then there's no way to tell if this isn't ED1 town!Elie or not imo.

However:

I don't think Kirsche is scum, and if he is, there's no effective way to pursue him today regardless.

I believe I am the largest wagon so this is weird lol.

The thing I find weird with Elie is that they seem to almost think the possibility of me being scum is non-existant:

Do you think I was trying to push for kirsche=lying scum & not miller even after acknowledging the mod post?

I mean, it's entirely possible I am lying scum and not town miller FYPoV, surely, even after the mod confirm?

Except Millers are, by the very definition of the role, investigations tamperers.

Nope. Every role passively scans as something. Miller scans as scum. Godfather scans as town. When you target them, you have an expected result, and you get that. Something that tampers with that result would be something like a tailor which targets someone and makes them scan as mafia for the night - tampering with their passive.

Resorting to diminishing the "meta" as a way to guilt trip the people against you is just a nice little bait.

You're just jealous you don't have the balls to call out an entire community B)

Implying someone's confirmed anything on day 1
Adressing previous behaviours of players as a solid argument, when it's been proven time after time that it's never a solid lead because people will intentionally change behaviours to mislead.

Implying it's not obviously false confidence in a read.

The fact that Elie does this practically every game has plenty of merit to our thoughts.

Occam's Razor tells us that is far more likely that Mr Kirsche is the one at fault, and not athe mod.

What? Let's look at the assumptions made on both sides then:

-You assume that I would not lie in my grave after I dig it.

-You assume that I wouldn't be cocky enough to think I can talk my way out of the situation without mod confirmation (when obv this isn't true lmao).

-You assume that I, as scum, think claiming miller is a 10/10 play.

-You assume that I didn't read the rules (since you think this is a slip).

-You assume the host's modconfirm comes only after I pestered them for it rather than being their actual opinion on it.

On the flip side you could:

-assume I'm not lying

-assume the host agrees with me wrt tampering.

-BONUS: I am cocky and confrontational. (This is prob applied to both sides but w/e).

Occam's razor favours me m8. Not that it particularly matters because it is not a tool based on logic but rather ideals. So I guess it fits your side of "the balance" where logic doesn't reside, huh?

And even if Kirsche ends up being a mistake, it's a Miller that we would lose. It's a win/win for the Town regardless.

Yes let's lynch one of the most active townies, what could go wrong? This is also assuming that I am not just a miller which is false lmao. Miller is just a passive role usually accompanied by an active role in this community fyi.

This is scummy btw, a real grimy way of trying to convince people to wagon me. "It's just Day 1" is not an excuse. Do you even have any other thoughts on the game? Refa's interactions with Elie? Thoughts on Proto? Thoughts on Eury?

[Zkirsche]

Would lynch Ken unless he looks at someone that isn't me.

[Zkirsche]

Honestly I'm so annoyed at having to explain this so I'm just not going to bother anymore. Regardless of whether or not you think that miller is tampering or not we have mod confirmation that that isn't what the mod thinks tampering is so it's just dumb that this is even a discussion.

Also why would I not just flake as scum after the mod confirm that would be such an easy thing to do to avoid any spotlight.

[Elieson]

I believe I am the largest wagon so this is weird lol.

You're the largest wagon for not-good reasons and I have faith that the rest of town will realize that.

I mean, it's entirely possible I am lying scum and not town miller FYPoV, surely, even after the mod confirm?

Sure, that's possible, but it's not what I was trying to say.

I was trying to say that even if you are miller, it doesn't violate the rule, and since I built my case on the idea that you overlooked a rule and claimed miller, you'd be scum caught in a slip. The mod posted that Millers aren't tampering roles, so for me to continue to assume that your miller claim goes against that rule (the foundation of my case), would mean that either:

I didn't see the mod's post

I disagree with the mod's post and didn't say that I did