Worst Combat Units in PoR?

[-Cynthia-]

Reyson's combat is pretty bad :p

[Snowy_One]

Which would actually be notable if not for her generally being too weak for her preemptive strike to mean much.

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Ummm... Even without modifiers, assuming you aren't doing something stupid like equipping her with slim swords when steel and silver are available she gets an innate crit modifier, a decent skill cap, and can take adept/wrath/guard to turn vantage into a force to be reckoned with. Not that I care so much anymore because anyone who seriously voted for Mia and wasn't trolling is a bloody idiot with either a hate-boner for her or who relies entirely on PE.

[Shadow Mir]

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Ummm... Even without modifiers, assuming you aren't doing something stupid like equipping her with slim swords when steel and silver are available she gets an innate crit modifier, a decent skill cap, and can take adept/wrath/guard to turn vantage into a force to be reckoned with. Not that I care so much anymore because anyone who seriously voted for Mia and wasn't trolling is a bloody idiot with either a hate-boner for her or who relies entirely on PE.

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Seriously? You worship Vantage as some miracle worker and treat anyone who thinks otherwise as though they're objectively wrong, is that it?

[Snowy_One]

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Seriously? You worship Vantage as some miracle worker and treat anyone who thinks otherwise as though they're objectively wrong, is that it?

You're free to think otherwise and not be wrong.

Just not when you're trying to say something that IS wrong. There are plenty of ways to either 'make Mia strong enough', do enough damage, or still turn that first strike to her edge. I don't 'worship vantage', just have years of experience with its ins and outs, especially in regards to Mia, due to the Mia vs. Zihark debates.

[ping]

Can we just agree that Mia is a decent combat unit among decent combat units who unfortunately is also a food unit in Mount Emblem: Mount of Mountanance?

[Augestein]

Can we just agree that Mia is a decent combat unit among decent combat units who unfortunately is also a food unit in Mount Emblem: Mount of Mountanance?

No. I used Vantage / Wrath Mia my first playthrough and I wasn't impressed. I'm using it now, and I'm even less impressed than I was back in the day. And again, I'm using Sothe as well this playthrough. Mia is so-so at best. Even with Vantage / Wrath and forged swords out the butt. Because you know... Everyone can use Forged swords. She's better than people like Mist (my god is Mist awful at fighting), but being better than Mist at fighting is... Not much.

That said, Mia isn't even close to being the worst combat unit. Sothe is definitely worse (even with that super Sothe I have, he's still using knives and even with those stats, he's still going to end up worse than Mia offensively). I can see Mia being present in a "worst combat unit" topic, but really, she should be the median where you start becoming "bad." As she's not bad, just not... Particularly outstanding. Both thieves are bad, and Rolf is definitely worse than her. Heck, Astrid starts out worst than her.

Mia is in this spot where you're just like "eh," and she keeps doing that.

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

[spoiler=My last FE9 run]

And it didn't happen just by fan-favorism.

Vantage + cancel + killing edge / vague katti = victory

[spoiler=As much attack power with the rune sword as Soren with tornado]

It happened without giving her one single spirit dust.

Edited August 23, 2016 by Ayama Wirdo

[ping]

Assuming that she wore the Mage Band for every single level-up, that's 5.2 points above her average. So we might just as well take a Mia with 10 magic into consideration.

@Augestein: Perhaps like this: "Mia is a decent combat unit in a game where almost everyone is a decent combat unit. Unfortenately, she is both swordlocked in a game with forgeable Hand Axes and Javelins and a footunit in a game where having a mount fucking matters."

I agree that Mia doesn't stand out at all, but she joins rather early at a point where your team is still rather small. That's why I tend to give her a bit of BEXP to ease her start a bit (yes, I know Marcia makes better use of it), then think to myself "Eh, might as well keep her on the team" and finally be neither impressed nor disappointed by her performance. I guess that's what I mean with "decent".

But I must admit that I couldn't name that many units that are worse than her combatwise and that don't have any kind of utility to make up for it. Rolf and Shinon (after rejoining), sure, but other than that? The mages, perhaps? They are pretty frail and there isn't that much incentive to use them instead of just throwing some Axes or Javelins at Daein. So I guess I might have just described PoR being easy instead of Mia being any good. ;)

€: I wouldn't even count on her getting wrath. Unless you absolutely need to see the Aether animation, Ike makes way better use of that skill.

Edited August 23, 2016 by ping

[Snowy_One]

Ike making better use of it outside of an LTC run is questionable. There is no doubt that it's useful, but it requires him to be at 50% HP to even activate as opposed to Aether's constant effect. Even then Aether is arguably better if you're not going for turncounts since it heals and counts as two attacks (I vaguely recall it being mentioned back in the day that both attacks could critical as well, but I don't recall seeing it firsthand. Then again it was so long ago now. God I feel old. YOU KIDS GET OFF MY LAWN!).

In an LTC it's better (especially when paired with Resolve). Outside... Ike really isn't anything special with it beyond his supports letting him run at 50% a lot more. Course, dropping him down to 50% HP, then moving his supports in, then avoiding healing him to keep wrath active is equally suspect.

Anyways, worse combat units than Mia in PoR

Rhys

Shinon

Rolf

Gatrie

Mist (SS Mist may be good, but she's pretty meh without it and the sword only has so many uses)

Lethe post-promo (transformation woes)

Mordi (without band)

Volke

Brom

Sothe

Janaff

Ulki

Muarim (without band)

Tauroneo

Ranulf (without the band. Dunno about with)

Haar

Lucia

Bastian

Elincia

Ena (without band)

Nasir (without band)

I'm not factoring in join-time and stuff like that. I also don't see the appeal of fielding a unit who can't fight half the time so I wouldn't field a Laguz without a gem or the band.

[Rezzy]

Ike making better use of it outside of an LTC run is questionable. There is no doubt that it's useful, but it requires him to be at 50% HP to even activate as opposed to Aether's constant effect. Even then Aether is arguably better if you're not going for turncounts since it heals and counts as two attacks (I vaguely recall it being mentioned back in the day that both attacks could critical as well, but I don't recall seeing it firsthand. Then again it was so long ago now. God I feel old. YOU KIDS GET OFF MY LAWN!).

In an LTC it's better (especially when paired with Resolve). Outside... Ike really isn't anything special with it beyond his supports letting him run at 50% a lot more. Course, dropping him down to 50% HP, then moving his supports in, then avoiding healing him to keep wrath active is equally suspect.

Anyways, worse combat units than Mia in PoR

Rhys

Shinon

Rolf

Gatrie

Mist (SS Mist may be good, but she's pretty meh without it and the sword only has so many uses)

Lethe post-promo (transformation woes)

Mordi (without band)

Volke

Brom

Sothe

Janaff

Ulki

Muarim (without band)

Tauroneo

Ranulf (without the band. Dunno about with)

Haar

Lucia

Bastian

Elincia

Ena (without band)

Nasir (without band)

I'm not factoring in join-time and stuff like that. I also don't see the appeal of fielding a unit who can't fight half the time so I wouldn't field a Laguz without a gem or the band.

YOU GET OFF MY LAWN

I know knives suck, but I've found having 30 Speed and decent all around stats is enough to make Volke decent, even being stuck to Knives. I also think the Laguz in general are all worse than Beorc units, due to having to deal with transformation gauges.

Edited August 24, 2016 by Rezzy

[ping]

Ike making better use of it outside of an LTC run is questionable. There is no doubt that it's useful, but it requires him to be at 50% HP to even activate as opposed to Aether's constant effect. Even then Aether is arguably better if you're not going for turncounts since it heals and counts as two attacks (I vaguely recall it being mentioned back in the day that both attacks could critical as well, but I don't recall seeing it firsthand. Then again it was so long ago now. God I feel old. YOU KIDS GET OFF MY LAWN!).

In an LTC it's better (especially when paired with Resolve). Outside... Ike really isn't anything special with it beyond his supports letting him run at 50% a lot more. Course, dropping him down to 50% HP, then moving his supports in, then avoiding healing him to keep wrath active is equally suspect.

I like giving Ike Wrath and Adept just for the BK fight, replacing the latter with Resolve for Ashnard. I'm pretty sure the chances of winning are higher that way than they would be with Aether.

I don't really agree with every entry on your list (Gatrie with the Knight Ward, for example, is a great combat unit. It's his movement that sucks). But I suppose I can't really argue about the Laguz, at least those which start with a low transformation gauge. I do like Lethe (early on) and Janaff though. ;) What exactly do you mean with "post-promo", btw?

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

Assuming that she wore the Mage Band for every single level-up, that's 5.2 points above her average. So we might just as well take a Mia with 10 magic into consideration.

No, played random level ups.

(never ever played fix mode)

[Snowy_One]

I like giving Ike Wrath and Adept just for the BK fight, replacing the latter with Resolve for Ashnard. I'm pretty sure the chances of winning are higher that way than they would be with Aether.

I don't really agree with every entry on your list (Gatrie with the Knight Ward, for example, is a great combat unit. It's his movement that sucks). But I suppose I can't really argue about the Laguz, at least those which start with a low transformation gauge. I do like Lethe (early on) and Janaff though. ;) What exactly do you mean with "post-promo", btw?

Yea, but it's just one fight as well. One you're not required to win.

And that was a relic. I originally wanted to clarify that Mia wins after she promotes but decided to just make it a general statement instead. Forgot to delete it.

[Just call me AL]

I tend to give Mist some Steel Sword forges after she promotes nowadays. Especially since they help out pretty well with the Sword Weapon Rank in this game.

[Snowy_One]

If Sothe wasn't in the game, would you really claim Rolf is the worst though? I mean, not to sound ****y, but isn't he at least around? Unlike Bastion? And what if Reyson? I mean, sure, he's got an awesome utility, but combat?

[Augestein]

If Sothe wasn't in the game, would you really claim Rolf is the worst though? I mean, not to sound ****y, but isn't he at least around? Unlike Bastion? And what if Reyson? I mean, sure, he's got an awesome utility, but combat?

Being around doesn't really mean much in my opinion, as there are characters like Wendy that are around and just plain suck while being there. That said, Reyson is definitely the worst outside of Sothe. Because technically, you COULD put counter on him, and so his only form of damage is from counter... Which is awful. But I really honestly wouldn't count Reyson because he doesn't even get a weapon.

Edited September 20, 2016 by Augestein

[Shadow Mir]

If Sothe wasn't in the game, would you really claim Rolf is the worst though? I mean, not to sound ****y, but isn't he at least around? Unlike Bastion? And what if Reyson? I mean, sure, he's got an awesome utility, but combat?

I wouldn't count Reyson because he can't even use a weapon. Anyways, while Rolf may be around, it doesn't really mean much for the reasons Augestein stated.

[Snowy_One]

Yea. But, bows aside, his stats really aren't all that bad. Here's Rolf's stats side-by-side with Marcia's. With the names removed and mixed up.

HP: 43.8

42.7

STR: 23.2

23

MAG: 8.8

9.6

SKL: 27.1

26

SPD: 28

27

LCK: 17.6

19.2

DEF: 19.4

18.5

RES: 13.5

19.2

I'm not saying Rolf is some 'amazing' unit. At the least he's still hampered by mono-bows and would be middling-ish in his stats, but 'worst combatant' seems a bit harsh when Ranulf ends up with a mere 24.5 STR, 6 STR through can form unbanded (which is either halved or means he's on a fight time-limit), and only 8 MT for his weapon compared to the constant 36+ MT Rolf can put out (more against flighted foes and/or if he has a forged weapon) along with options like the brave bow. I just don't see him as 'the worst'. Not the best, sure. Not all that good? Maybe. Worst? No.

[ping]

Come on, you know that bows vs. lances is a huge deal. Forgeable 1-2 range is amazing, especially in a game with wimpy enemies and a fuckton of money as soon as you hit midgame.

To be fair, part of Rolf's problem is his lack of utility that comes with not having a mount. He also joins in the same chapter as Mist and Marcia, both of which get more out of the BEXP you have at that point (and Jill comes not that much later, so there goes the next heap of BEXP).

But honestly, if we compare stats, we should rather look at their bases. Marcia wins Str by 3, Spd by 5 and Def by 2 points, so even if Rolf somehow managed to find a pegasus that is into boys and a lance instructor that is a total asshole, he'd still lose. Your 20/20 stats are completely misleading.

Also, while Rolf might earn more EXP per fight (or kill), but Marcia with her better mobility and existing EP potential will still earn way more levels (unless you drown Rolf in TLC), so comparing stats at equal levels is misleading, anyway.

I won't try to defend Ranulf, though; being a laguz does suck in both Tellius games.

[Rezzy]

If Rolf wasn't Bow-locked, he'd be decent, but being locked to 2 range hurts him quite a bit. Plus almost all units in PoR being decent makes him look worse than he really is.

[ping]

True, but the strong competition also make his decent averages less impactful because even disregarding his weapon choice, there is little incentive to feed him kills or BEXP when he offers neither higher stats nor special skills or utility compared to all the other characters that require less investment (read: almost everyone).

OTOH, the low difficulty of the game makes him look better compared to the other shitty archers in the series. ;) In my experience, even Neimi takes more effort to raise, despite FE8 being FE8, simply because you can't give her BEXP or a forge to help her land the killing blow. It also means that complaining about Rolf is somewhat silly because he's still not that hard to use.

[Shadow Mir]

OTOH, the low difficulty of the game makes him look better compared to the other shitty archers in the series. ;) In my experience, even Neimi takes more effort to raise, despite FE8 being FE8, simply because you can't give her BEXP or a forge to help her land the killing blow. It also means that complaining about Rolf is somewhat silly because he's still not that hard to use.

Not entirely true. Neimi happens to be in a game where enemies don't exactly have good stats.

[ping]

I'm aware of that, but Rolf is in a game where enemies don't have good stats, where forges can help him overcome initial issues with hitting and killing weakened enemies and where BEXP can be used to let underleveled characters catch up.

Of course, these additional resources can be used more efficiently on other characters, but PoR really doesn't require optimal resource management and in a casual playthrough it's perfectly possible to make Rolf a decent combatant (only in PP, of course) very quickly and without making the game super hard.

Edited September 20, 2016 by ping

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

Not entirely true. Neimi happens to be in a game where enemies don't exactly have good stats.

In FE9 they don't have them either.

[Shadow Mir]

In FE9 they don't have them either.

But it's not like in FE8 where I could just point and laugh at their stats for the most part.

I'm aware of that, but Rolf is in a game where enemies don't have good stats, where forges can help him overcome initial issues with hitting and killing weakened enemies and where BEXP can be used to let underleveled characters catch up.

Of course, these additional resources can be used more efficiently on other characters, but PoR really doesn't require optimal resource management and in a casual playthrough it's perfectly possible to make Rolf a decent combatant (only in PP, of course) very quickly and without making the game super hard.

You make it sound like FE9 enemies are the jokes that SS enemies are, which ain't the case.