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Worst Combat Units in PoR?


NJ7009
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  1. 1. Worst Combat unit in PoR?



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You make it sound like FE9 enemies are the jokes that SS enemies are, which ain't the case.

...it isn't?

Seriously, which enemies do you mean? I guess Naesala in Ch. 19 is potentially scary, as well as the dragon laguz in Twisted Tower. But other than that (and the BK, I guess) I can't come up with any really tough groups of enemies.

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...it isn't?

Seriously, which enemies do you mean? I guess Naesala in Ch. 19 is potentially scary, as well as the dragon laguz in Twisted Tower. But other than that (and the BK, I guess) I can't come up with any really tough groups of enemies.

That's not what I meant - what I did mean was that PoR enemies are pretty durable relative to SS enemies. To put it into perspective, Rolf does next to no damage against most of the enemies in his join chapter even with his special bow. Edited by Levant Mir Celestia
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But it's not like in FE8 where I could just point and laugh at their stats for the most part.

If you were talking about EM and NM, I would agree.

In FE9 I'm pretty sure enemies in HM don't have better stats than in NM (except for a few bosses).

Only their number is increased.

At least magic users in FE8 can you hurt seriously. The HM gorgons and eyeballs can even oneshot your unit(s).

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That's not what I meant - what I did mean was that PoR enemies are pretty durable relative to SS enemies. To put it into perspective, Rolf does next to no damage against most of the enemies in his join chapter even with his special bow.

Ah, OK. I don't think that's a big issue though. A Mt+4 or +5 Iron Bow should be affordable and is two or three points stronger than Rolf's Bow anyway; BEXP is another thing Rolf has and Neimi doesn't and it's not like Neimi can one-round enemies at base, either. If you want to use your shitty archers, you'll have to set up kills for them anyway, so the beefier enemies hardly make things more difficult for Rolf.

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Come on, you know that bows vs. lances is a huge deal. Forgeable 1-2 range is amazing, especially in a game with wimpy enemies and a fuckton of money as soon as you hit midgame.

I know. There is a reason Marcia is high and Rolf is low. I'm not saying Rolf is GOOD. Just not the WORST and using Marcia (a unit considered good) as a reference point.

But honestly, if we compare stats, we should rather look at their bases. Marcia wins Str by 3, Spd by 5 and Def by 2 points, so even if Rolf somehow managed to find a pegasus that is into boys and a lance instructor that is a total asshole, he'd still lose. Your 20/20 stats are completely misleading.

I dislike base stats as they tend to skew things against early-joiners. I mean a base-level Oscar is weaker than a base-level Mia. Sure, he joins earlier, but it's way too easy to forget that. Not to mention that it's way too easy to simply not use a unit and end up with a unit who would have been great but wasn't used now trying to come in in the mid/late game and, thusly, unable to compete. I mean, look at Tormod's base stats. He loses HP to REYSON! If you saw that you wouldn't touch him despite that he shoots up pretty well with some EXP. Better to use the endgame stats which shows their normal max than something that can be so skewed and not capturing what's really going on IMO.

If I had to pick another level I'd opt for 20/1, even though units join higher, but that doesn't apply to any of the units mentioned.

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Mia got two votes!? O_O

Ok, she's not as awesome as in 10 but still.

Vantage + sword with high critchance make her great.

She's also one of the better magic sword users in this game.

I gave her Gamble and a Killing Edge. It's SO satisfying to watch her crit everything she hits.

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I dislike base stats as they tend to skew things against early-joiners. I mean a base-level Oscar is weaker than a base-level Mia. Sure, he joins earlier, but it's way too easy to forget that. Not to mention that it's way too easy to simply not use a unit and end up with a unit who would have been great but wasn't used now trying to come in in the mid/late game and, thusly, unable to compete. I mean, look at Tormod's base stats. He loses HP to REYSON! If you saw that you wouldn't touch him despite that he shoots up pretty well with some EXP. Better to use the endgame stats which shows their normal max than something that can be so skewed and not capturing what's really going on IMO.

If I had to pick another level I'd opt for 20/1, even though units join higher, but that doesn't apply to any of the units mentioned.

I don't think base stats do that. Early joiners have the distinct advantage of being able to gain levels whether they are good or not. Growths only really matter when you start comparing them to people that join after a unit has joined. IE, Oscar's growths don't really matter until another unit joins and you have more than a full team to be able to deploy. So instead, you compare what his stats might be to a person that's just recently joined. IE, Tormod might be compared as a level 10 or 11 minimum with Reyson, and suddenly Reyson doesn't have more hp than Tormod. Using endgame stats doesn't work, because it doesn't even come close to telling the story of the unit to even reach there. Giving endgame stats and ignoring bases, and growths along the way is akin to picking up a book and reading the ending and judging from the ending if the book was worth reading or not. Especially because some units, like Shinion, have awful bases and amazing growths.

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If you were talking about EM and NM, I would agree.

In FE9 I'm pretty sure enemies in HM don't have better stats than in NM (except for a few bosses).

Only their number is increased.

At least magic users in FE8 can you hurt seriously. The HM gorgons and eyeballs can even oneshot your unit(s).

The problem is, both of those enemy types (1) are hardly relevant because you don't even see them until near the very end of the game, and (2) are monsters, and thus get their shit wrecked by Sacred Twins or Bishops.

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I dislike base stats as they tend to skew things against early-joiners. I mean a base-level Oscar is weaker than a base-level Mia. Sure, he joins earlier, but it's way too easy to forget that. Not to mention that it's way too easy to simply not use a unit and end up with a unit who would have been great but wasn't used now trying to come in in the mid/late game and, thusly, unable to compete. I mean, look at Tormod's base stats. He loses HP to REYSON! If you saw that you wouldn't touch him despite that he shoots up pretty well with some EXP. Better to use the endgame stats which shows their normal max than something that can be so skewed and not capturing what's really going on IMO.

If I had to pick another level I'd opt for 20/1, even though units join higher, but that doesn't apply to any of the units mentioned.

But Marcia and Rolf join in the same chapter, so comparing their base stats actually makes sense. ;)

In case of Oscar and Mia, there is little point comparing either their base stats or their stats at equal levels. Oscar will almost certainly have collected quite a few levels and thanks to his higher mobility (plus access to Javelins), he will keep his EXP advantage unless the player is really adamant in investing into Mia. Which would be totally fine, of course, but for the sake of this argument ("Who is the better combat unit?") it would be unfair to assume either of them getting special care.

But I'd say that's why Rolf is considered so bad. He needs that special care to catch up to the rest of the team, but thanks to his lack of 1-2-ranged weapons (or even just a 1-range weapon) he'll always be less useful than other characters who got the same or even less investment.

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Ah, OK. I don't think that's a big issue though. A Mt+4 or +5 Iron Bow should be affordable and is two or three points stronger than Rolf's Bow anyway; BEXP is another thing Rolf has and Neimi doesn't and it's not like Neimi can one-round enemies at base, either. If you want to use your shitty archers, you'll have to set up kills for them anyway, so the beefier enemies hardly make things more difficult for Rolf.

It's true that Neimi wouldn't be one-rounding, either, but at least she's actually doing something I can call "chip damage" without needing special investment.

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But I'd say that's why Rolf is considered so bad. He needs that special care to catch up to the rest of the team, but thanks to his lack of 1-2-ranged weapons (or even just a 1-range weapon) he'll always be less useful than other characters who got the same or even less investment.

Honestly, the value of 1-2 range weapons and the shortcomings of 2-ranged weapons is a bit overblown. Think about it. On the player-phase it either doesn't matter or favors 2-ranged stuff due to lack of counters (which bows have) and most things should be dead by the EP unless you're speedrunning hard.

Once again, not saying bows are great (they're inferior to swords/axes/lances/magic), but that the people who act like archers/bows are some sort of insta-fail disease are over-reacting.

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The thing is, the value that bows usually have is lessened here as effective damage is far, far less. Plus the maps just favour cavalry so hard so the better bow user is actually Astrid, who also happens to have a huge advantage in exp gain thanks to Paragon and their final stats are virtually identical. She even promotes out of bowlock so she can grab a lance or axe (sword's kinda a bad idea...). Rolf is in the unfortunate situation where his early chip damage phase just doesn't exist because you get to use Shinon instead, who is very good at his job early on in the game despite being worse than Rolf or Astrid upon return if you decided you wanted to train someone to use a bow.

Of course Rolf is a perfectly viable combat unit, he just happens to contribute less than anyone with a horse and doesn't get any cool utility like the mages do. Though honestly I don't really think Rolf is much worse than the swordmasters and I'd probably also use Rolf above Gatrie or Brom since I don't particularly like armor knights. By endgame he'll be a better combat unit than any of the laguz if he does get trained. There's even an abundance of dracoknights for Rolf to maim when they go through Daein, though wind magic takes care of them more efficiently. Just the structure of the game means that a bow locked foot unit just isn't that helpful because Rolf doesn't do any meaningful investment without immediate BEXP abuse. Upon join he's already competing against Soren and Ilyana for the chip damage slot, but his damage will be inferior and the mages promote into staff utility and get long range siege tomes. Marcia joins at the same time with better bases and with a flying mount. Base Boyd outdamages base Rolf with a hand axe, joins several chapters earlier, and accuracy's not really a problem in this game.

At least RD nerfed mounted movement indoors and added ledges to give foot units some advantages back, but PoR is a very slow game without making use of your horses and fliers and it basically puts a damper on anyone who can't keep up. Even Boyd and Ike can end up struggling to get exp when you're given so many competent units who can charge ahead of time. That puts Rolf in an especially bad position when he has so few opportunities to take advantage of the enemy phase.

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With regards to bases...


If Shinon and Lucia were levelled from an Archer/Myrmidon respectively, using their godly growths, they would have looked

something like this instead. I used the default base stats provided on this site for a starting point, then levelled them

appropiately.



Shinon

Level 1 Sniper


HP: 35

Str: 18

Mag: 6

Skl: 21

Spd: 17

Luk: 7

Def: 16

Res: 10


Jeigan Sniper. xD He would have been too broken this way, but the game could have just made him an Archer ( shrugs ).


Lucia

Level 12 Swordmaster


HP: 40

Str: 19

Mag: 11

Skl: 28

Spd: 27

Luk: 17

Def: 17

Res: 15


I don't think even Zihark/Mia could have matched that. Not even Stefan, for that matter.



Just putting it out there. FE9 wasn't kind to those two, sadly. Every other pre-promotes bases more or less matches up with their join time.
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Lucia and Bastian have it especially rough. Shinon only makes his bases work by existing so early in the game, so he gets a few chapters to shine. I really wish Lucia wasn't completely outclassed since she's so gorgeous. And poor Bastian's speed is just so piss poor compared to Calill. At least RD fixed Shinon, though Bastian and Lucia are still pretty weak...

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Though honestly I don't really think Rolf is much worse than the swordmasters and I'd probably also use Rolf above Gatrie or Brom since I don't particularly like armor knights. By endgame he'll be a better combat unit than any of the laguz if he does get trained. There's even an abundance of dracoknights for Rolf to maim when they go through Daein, though wind magic takes care of them more efficiently.

Well, it seems we agree he's not the 'worst' then.

If I had to pick a 'worst' and couldn't pick Sothe or Volke I'd probably opt for either Ulki (meh stats, laguz issues, AND a weakness to bows?) or Elincia (even if you max out her stats she has 20 STR, 29 with Amiti which is just an Elincia-only brave sword, and only a few chapters of us). The only reason I don't pick the latter is because her flight and staff can be useful without any effort while Sothe is just going to drag down anyone who isn't heavily focused on stealing.

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Well, it seems we agree he's not the 'worst' then.

If I had to pick a 'worst' and couldn't pick Sothe or Volke I'd probably opt for either Ulki (meh stats, laguz issues, AND a weakness to bows?) or Elincia (even if you max out her stats she has 20 STR, 29 with Amiti which is just an Elincia-only brave sword, and only a few chapters of us). The only reason I don't pick the latter is because her flight and staff can be useful without any effort while Sothe is just going to drag down anyone who isn't heavily focused on stealing.

Sothe just sucks. There's not even a kinda in there. He's bad. His strength is bad, he can't double, his weapons are bad, and he has no skills (Blossom hurts you way more than it helps). He can steal, yes, and that can cut some turns down if you deploy both him and Volke, but man, he can't fight worth anything, and unlike other people with lame strength, he doesn't have the defense, luck or speed to really do anything effectively.

Even if you ram BEXP into him, he'll just be okay for a level 20 unit (and the Sothe I posted in here is way, WAY above average), but still suck as a unit in general. At best, a BEXP abused Sothe is "good" for like... 3 chapters at best. Everywhere else, he's bad. Like... Volke isn't great, and he's still leagues better than Sothe.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Why the heck does this keep popping up as 'unseen' whenever I visit this page? Seriously! The last post was in September!

I think it's because it's a poll, and it becomes "unseen" whenever someone casts s vote. Since the poll is pretty much over, the OP could either lock the poll or the whole thread, if they wanted to.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Volke's problem is his weapon type, robbing him of any hopes of fighting things well. He's not meant to be a combat unit at all, but being able to take a tiny bit more punishment than Sothe while thieving is fairly useful.

I remember I had quite a bit a blast with him, back in the day. Since he has such a solid Str growth, it's not common to see it rise quickly. I also think I played around with a skill or two. While not being to be able to cleanly 1RKO (no critical/skill activation), I saw him as a sort of SM, without the drawback of of WTD + a little extra mobility.

The ubiquity of forges pretty much means Mist is the premiere candidate for one tbqh
yeah, what's that all about...? I know she's pretty mean rocking those magic swords, but that's...pretty much, literally, it. They're very low in amount uses.
Edited by Soul~!
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  • 11 months later...
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