What the Nintendo Switch may mean for Smash

[Anacybele]

Please read it again. I was editing it to remove the possibility of misunderstanding.

Which you did.

Cutting a clone/semi-clone character, which he attributed to getting a free desert long ago is throwing that away.

For a possible port, no less.

Just because you don't like those two characters. What kind of discussion does that facilitate? How is that benificial other than to offend fans that already enjoy those characters?

How is the work the assets took, which you know... required them to rehire Roy's swiyuu for DLC, being thrown away benificial?

If I can call this bashing, it's me saying your opinion of cutting characters is not in any shape or form rooted in game design. It's rooted in your personal dislike of those two FE characters.

Tl;Dr

Your opinion is designed to talk crap about people who like those two characters. Aka the worst part of the reputation of smash bros. players.

lol. Wow. I can't say how inaccurate and wrong this is. And I even JUST said that I don't dislike Roy. Hahaha.

EDIT: Different sweet/sour spots. Woohoo. That's nowhere near as interesting as having some entirely different moves, a different type of sword/weapon, different weight, etc. This is a reason Ike was added, because Sakurai knew he'd bring a different and new swordplay style to the game. Nobody had a two-handed sword or powerhouse sword style before Ike came in.

Also, If Famitsu's polls are anything to go by, Ike is even more popular in Japan than Roy is these days. THE most popular, in fact, since he got 1st!

Edited October 21, 2016 by Anacybele

[shadowofchaos]

lol. Wow. I can't say how inaccurate and wrong this is. And I even JUST said that I don't dislike Roy. Hahaha.

You have stated multiple times on many forums that you dislike Lucina.

You are suggesting that it is good game design to remove Roy for unjustified reasons. "I don't dislike him". Then quote your reasons for wanting him gone other than "Ike's already there."

I suggest you actually answer the questions instead of throwing Red Herrings at me.

EDIT: Different sweet/sour spots. Woohoo. That's nowhere near as interesting as having some entirely different moves, a different type of sword/weapon, different weight, etc. This is a reason Ike was added, because Sakurai knew he'd bring a different and new swordplay style to the game. Nobody had a two-handed sword or powerhouse sword style before Ike came in.

Also, If Famitsu's polls are anything to go by, Ike is even more popular in Japan than Roy is these days. THE most popular, in fact, since he got 1st!

So what justifies removing Roy?

You still never answered that.

Under Sakurai's mentality of not removing characters until it can be helped, what can be said?

How can you justify wasting those assets?

Each character that was ever removed had a reason. It was never "they're not as interesting". That was used to justify new concept characters.

So please, tell me any reason besides "Ike is better than Roy" that you imply.

Edited October 21, 2016 by shadowofchaos

[Anacybele]

You have stated multiple times on many forums that you dislike Lucina.

You are suggesting that it is good game design to remove Roy for unjustified reasons. "I don't dislike him". Then quote your reasons for wanting him gone other than "Ike's already there."

I suggest you actually answer the questions instead of throwing Red Herrings at me.

And I suggest you actually read my posts instead of putting words in my mouth and bashing me.

Yeah, but I never brought up that dislike for her in my post. At all. I was intentionally remaining as unbiased as possible. I also implied that Dark Pit should be removed for the same reasons as Lucina, and I fucking LOVE that guy. He's my favorite Kid Icarus character by FAR (other than Viridi, maybe). It saddens me that he can't bring anything cool to the Smash table, but I'm admitting it in full.

I stated reasons for removing Roy that DON'T involve Ike, read my posts again. Roy doesn't bring anything unique since he's just another quick sword-wielder like Marth. He isn't even the only one whose sword has flames anymore. I can't think of anything that's unique about him at all.

Edited October 21, 2016 by Anacybele

[shadowofchaos]

And I suggest you actually read my posts instead of putting words in my mouth and bashing me.

Yeah, but I never brought up that dislike for her in my post. At all. I was intentionally remaining as unbiased as possible. I also implied that Dark Pit should be removed for the same reasons as Lucina, and I fucking LOVE that guy. He's my favorite Kid Icarus character by FAR (other than Viridi, maybe). It saddens me that he can't bring anything cool to the Smash table, but I'm admitting it in full.

I stated reasons for removing Roy that DON'T involve Ike, read my posts again. Roy doesn't bring anything unique since he's just another quick sword-wielder like Marth. He isn't even the only one whose sword has flames anymore. I can't think of anything that's unique about him at all.

I've been quoting you. Implications are there.

Point 1: You have stated that you have reasons for cutting those two characters.

Justifying it with "I've said cut Dark pit too and I like him".

This is a misdirection in logic.

If you are justifying that, then just state you want to cut all the clones. That's a more accepted and easily defended opinion.

Point 2: Not bringing up other posts and attempting to be unbiased.

If you want to be unbiased as possible, then it's contradicting your opinion.

You are appealing to game design when you say "less is more".

Yet, selecting characters to be cut is by nature, being biased.

By default, you're appealing to "Marth brings the the table what Lucina does" and "Ike/Marth brings what Roy does".

How justified is it to remove man hours from a game in a port for those petty reasons? It's not thinking by game design.

[Melissa]

Well this escalated quickly...

[Anacybele]

I've been quoting you. Implications are there.

Point 1: You have stated that you have reasons for cutting those two characters.

Justifying it with "I've said cut Dark pit too and I like him".

This is a misdirection in logic.

If you are justifying that, then just state you want to cut all the clones. That's a more accepted and easily defended opinion.

Point 2: Not bringing up other posts and attempting to be unbiased.

If you want to be unbiased as possible, then it's contradicting your opinion.

You are appealing to game design when you say "less is more".

Yet, selecting characters to be cut is by nature, being biased.

By default, you're appealing to "Marth brings the the table what Lucina does" and "Ike/Marth brings what Roy does".

How justified is it to remove man hours from a game in a port for those petty reasons? It's not thinking by game design.

And now you're just spewing out gibberish, because I have no idea what you're saying here for the most part.

Basically, yes, I am not a fan of clones and wish they'd go away for good. But I felt that if I said that right out, I'd get all kinds of people complaining to me that Roy is not a clone. He's not as cloney as Lucina, but he seems cloney and unoriginal enough to me to get the boot.

[Magical Glace]

lol. Wow. I can't say how inaccurate and wrong this is. And I even JUST said that I don't dislike Roy. Hahaha.

EDIT: Different sweet/sour spots. Woohoo. That's nowhere near as interesting as having some entirely different moves, a different type of sword/weapon, different weight, etc. This is a reason Ike was added, because Sakurai knew he'd bring a different and new swordplay style to the game. Nobody had a two-handed sword or powerhouse sword style before Ike came in.

Also, If Famitsu's polls are anything to go by, Ike is even more popular in Japan than Roy is these days. THE most popular, in fact, since he got 1st!

Real question: Did you actually pay attention to Roy's moveset in the fourth game?

His attacks are quite different from Marth's now. So Roy has different moves, with different properties, which includes the sweet/sourspot difference.

Roy's attributes, while close, are also mostly different (most notably fall speed and dash speed, from what I can tell from the data sheets I'm looking at to confirm this. Roy's in a tie for fifth fastest fall speed in the game, while Marth and Lucy are hanging out at 28/29. Similarly, Roy's dashes are faster than Marth's are by a good margin).

[shadowofchaos]

I stated reasons for removing Roy that DON'T involve Ike, read my posts again. Roy doesn't bring anything unique since he's just another quick sword-wielder like Marth. He isn't even the only one whose sword has flames anymore. I can't think of anything that's unique about him at all.

EDIT: Different sweet/sour spots. Woohoo. That's nowhere near as interesting as having some entirely different moves, a different type of sword/weapon, different weight, etc. This is a reason Ike was added, because Sakurai knew he'd bring a different and new swordplay style to the game. Nobody had a two-handed sword or powerhouse sword style before Ike came in.

Uhh... okay. I'll quote you a response from you.

If you say you can't think of anything unique about him, you are comparing him to something that is already there.

Logic flow:

Ike and Marth already exist.

Ike has heavy hitter status.

Ike has flames.

Ike hits harder in center of sword.

Marth has fast swordfighter moveset.

Marth has dancing blade side b.

Roy has heavy hitter ststus.

Roy has flames.

Roy hits harder in center of sword.

Roy has fast swordfighter moveset.

Roy had dancing blade side b.

Therefore Roy is not unique and uninteresting.

Summarized well enough?

That involves Ike by nature.

Roy doesn't bring anything new because Ike is already there for the heavy hitter, etc.

Summary good?

So remove him.

That's where we hit a wall.

Roy's work and assets were paid for by DLC. Roy has fans.

By definition a port doesn't change much... or an enhanced port adds things, not remove them.

What part of the "less is more" justification earlier benefits the game more than upsetting Roy's fans?

What is your reason?

Because it makes it sound like you just want him cut to upset people.

What discussion does cutting a character like that facilitate?

And now you're just spewing out gibberish, because I have no idea what you're saying here for the most part.

Ana, I have outlined every point for you and tried to be clear and concise as possible.

Edited October 21, 2016 by shadowofchaos

[Anacybele]

Real question: Did you actually pay attention to Roy's moveset in the fourth game?

His attacks are quite different from Marth's now. So Roy has different moves, with different properties, which includes the sweet/sourspot difference.

Roy's attributes, while close, are also mostly different (most notably fall speed and dash speed, from what I can tell from the data sheets I'm looking at to confirm this. Roy's in a tie for fifth fastest fall speed in the game, while Marth and Lucy are hanging out at 28/29. Similarly, Roy's dashes are faster than Marth's are by a good margin).

Yeah, I've played against players that used him. His up B still looks like Marth's Dolphin Slash, his side B still looks like a flaming Dancing Blade, he still has Counter as well, etc.

And differences like fall speed and attack power aren't enough to make me think a character is unique or bringing new things to the table. I DID say Roy is not as cloney as Lucina, after all.

[Tsunami922]

If we do get a port, I don't think we will see any cuts. Hopefully we do get some sort of update, though. Smash Run would be great. 50+ characters is not enough, let's go over 60!

[Ema Skye]

Roy is to Marth as Dr. Mario is to Mario or Ness is to Lucas.

If we're looking at a complete port of Smash 4/3DS, you can kiss your roster cuts goodbye because they won't be going anywhere. It's a waste of time and resources to not use the pre-made assets. It logically doesn't make sense.

[Magical Glace]

Yeah, I've played against players that used him. His up B still looks like Marth's Dolphin Slash, his side B still looks like a flaming Dancing Blade, he still has Counter as well, etc.

And differences like fall speed and attack power aren't enough to make me think a character is unique or bringing new things to the table. I DID say Roy is not as cloney as Lucina, after all.

Roy's Blazer has a property that lets him angle the attack more added in this game, a property that Marth doesn't get. (sort of. This added property is actually a reference to Project M, if I remember right).

Double Edged Dance is one of few attacks in Roy's entire moveset that hasn't been distinguished more from Marth in some way in terms of animation. That said, Roy actually gets more ease in starting with the attack up close due to the sweetspot being different.

Roy's Counter has always been different in properties from Marth's.

It's not some rule that characters have to be TOTALLY UNIQUE. Removing Roy from a potential port roster is more like removing Lucas for being to much like Ness than say, Lucina or Dark Pit, who're even more cloney than Roy ever was, Melee included.

I guess it's pointless to argue with you, Roy's a semi-clone at best in 4 with a vastly different playstyle.

[shadowofchaos]

If we're looking at a complete port of Smash 4/3DS, you can kiss your roster cuts goodbye because they won't be going anywhere. It's a waste of time and resources to not use the pre-made assets. It logically doesn't make sense.

That's what I've been saying. Repeatedly.

Hoping to cut characters for a port is nothing but hostility and schadenfreude.

[Anacybele]

Who said I was talking about a port? I was referring to a brand new game. Never said ANYTHING about my arguments being for a port. If it's just a port, then yeah, cutting anybody wouldn't make sense.

Edited October 21, 2016 by Anacybele

[shadowofchaos]

You also forget about what Sakurai said about clone characters in your entire argument of removing characters.

You stated that you'd rather clones get cut and have more characters.

The man himself has stated that what you get for one character, you sacrifice more than 4 clones for sure.

And Roy was developed during DLC timeframe. So there's no way removing his assets for the new game is in any way beneficial.

There's no benefit. Only drawbacks.

Edited October 21, 2016 by shadowofchaos

[Magical Glace]

You also forget about what Sakurai said about clone characters in your entire argument of removing characters.

You stated that you'd rather clones get cut and have more characters.

The man himself has stated that what you get for one character, you sacrifice more than 4 clones for sure.

And Roy was developed during DLC timeframe. So there's no way removing his assets for the new game is in any way beneficial.

For Melee at least, the 6 clones took the theorhetical dev time for one full character.

And if they went full character (who would *probably* be King Dedede if I were to guess) we wouldn't have Ganondorf, Roy or Falco, who have quite a bit of popularity.

[Anacybele]

You also forget about what Sakurai said about clone characters in your entire argument of removing characters.

You stated that you'd rather clones get cut and have more characters.

The man himself has stated that what you get for one character, you sacrifice more than 4 clones for sure.

Nope, I know he said all that. And I'd be totally fine with it if we got one cool unique character for the price of four clones. Like I said, I don't care for clones, so...

And there's a big benefit, actually. A more diverse roster, of course.

We could've had a more unique Ganondorf. He's the clone that makes the least sense to me. At least other clones clone off of characters from the same series. Ganondorf's moves come from someone from an entirely different game!

Edited October 21, 2016 by Anacybele

[Magical Glace]

All of Captain Falcon's moves are made up, you know? None of them actually come from F-Zero.

I don't think you can use Balloon Flight in Animal Crossing.

Mario's Smash personality is a literal 180 from how he is in Mario canon.

Smash has plenty of examples of things not being related to source material of a character.

[Anacybele]

All of Captain Falcon's moves are made up, you know? None of them actually come from F-Zero.

Yes, I've known this for a long time. But at least they fit Captain Falcon. They don't really fit Ganondorf as well as some actual Ganondorf moves would, imo.

[Lightchao42]

Roy is to Marth as Dr. Mario is to Mario or Ness is to Lucas.

Lucas's differences from Ness:

Jab

Forward tilt

Up tilt

Dash attack

Up smash

Down smash

Nair

Bair

Fair

Dair

Tether

Forward throw

Back throw

Up throw

Down throw

PK Freeze

PK Fire functions differently

PK Thunder has different qualities

Roy's differences from Marth:

Jab

Dash attack

Forward tilt

Up tilt

Forward air

Down air

Forward smash

Flare Blade

Final Smash

Blazer functions differently

Different tipper

Different physics

Dr. Mario's differences from Mario:

Down air

Stronger

Slower

For Melee at least, the 6 clones took the theorhetical dev time for one full character.

And if they went full character (who would *probably* be King Dedede if I were to guess) we wouldn't have Ganondorf, Roy or Falco, who have quite a bit of popularity.

If they went full character, then Ganondorf would probably have a unique moveset...

Edited October 21, 2016 by Lightchao42

[kingddd]

Yes, I've known this for a long time. But at least they fit Captain Falcon. They don't really fit Ganondorf as well as some actual Ganondorf moves would, imo.

As a F-Zero fan, I'd argue they don't fit him at all in canon in most of the series. He's a more reserved fighter, hiding in the shadows than a super heroesque "YEAH I'M AWESOME" loud mouth that he is in the actual game and anime.

[shadowofchaos]

Nope, I know he said all that. And I'd be totally fine with it if we got one cool unique character for the price of four clones. Like I said, I don't care for clones, so...

And there's a big benefit, actually. A more diverse roster, of course.

We could've had a more unique Ganondorf. He's the clone that makes the least sense to me. At least other clones clone off of characters from the same series. Ganondorf's moves come from someone from an entirely different game!

Yes.

That's exactly the point.

"*I* don't care about clones".

Focusing on *I*.

Game design focuses on more appeal than just what you think something brings to the table. Sakurai managed the time he had with how he was going to make other people happy.

And I said "more than 4". Not 4.

How many clones are there that had to be made from non-preexisting assets during non-dlc time?

Dark Pit, Lucina, Dr. Mario (melee data is useless)

A lot of people are fine with clones.

If you wanted a unique character, remove the following semi-clones for the required development time.

Luigi, Falco, Toon Link, Ganondorf.

For one character.

Edited October 21, 2016 by shadowofchaos

[Anacybele]

Luigi, Falco, Toon Link, Ganondorf.

Luigi is not nearly as cloney as those other three you mentioned. A majority of his moves are unique compared to Mario's. Green Missile, Luigi Cyclone, Luigi's A smashes, etc. Mario has none of these. Plus, Luigi is iconic and arguably the second most important character to Nintendo after Mario. It'd make no sense to cut him no matter how cloney he is. But at the same time it makes no sense for him to be really cloney now either, which is why he's gradually become more unique over time.

Toon Link, Falco, and Ganondorf have nearly everything that the characters they're cloning off of do.

I always saw a lot of complaints about clones, personally. And look, you're not changing my opinion, SOC. So there's no point in arguing with me on this.

Edited October 21, 2016 by Anacybele

[shadowofchaos]

I was expecting that.

Luigi is a semi-clone.

If you said "I don't care about clones" for a new character, you shouldn't care about him either.

Luigi Cyclone is the Mario down B before Fludd.

Luigi's only unique smash is side b.

Falco's side A smashes are also unique.

Let's list them:

Luigi side b vs Mario.

Falco Forward Aerial vs Fox

Luigi side smash vs Mario.

Falco side smash vs Fox.

Luigi animations listed with Mario are more or less the same as Falco's differences with Fox.

Luigi is a semi-clone.

The same as Falco.

The same as Roy.

Let's list Luigi unique animation attributes.

Forward Aerial.

Side Smash.

Side B.

Dash Attack.

Down Throw (?)

How is than "not nearly as cloney" as Falco, Roy, or any other semi clone?

I'm not trying to change your opinion. I'm just illustrating your logic isn't logic or based on game design principles.

It's purely on bias.

It implies your reason to cut them is "I don't like clones, screw everyone else who likes them. Oh and I'm not admitting one of my liked characters is a clone."

It's self-centered.

Edited October 21, 2016 by shadowofchaos

[Ema Skye]

This is why character cut conversations suck about Smash hype.

#cutike2016