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Has Religion Done More Good Than Bad?


Jotari
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9 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Honestly, I do t think Deuteronomy has much context to it. It's just a law book with a bunch of various laws laid out, almost in bullet point form (of course the context of various translations is something that always needs to be considered).

Anyway, I don't think Shoblongoo is attempting to discredit the religion(s) as a whole, based on this comment,

Laws are a part of society - and to truly understand them, it means that the culture of that time MUST be taken into account.  The slavery laws make no sense in the context of our culture.  In the time that Deuteronomy was written, slavery was normal.

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10 minutes ago, eclipse said:

Laws are a part of society - and to truly understand them, it means that the culture of that time MUST be taken into account.  The slavery laws make no sense in the context of our culture.  In the time that Deuteronomy was written, slavery was normal.

Oh yeah. That's the basic point of the whole discussion that I brought up with my first comment. A lot of the things said in the bible (and I assume other holy books) are outright outdated as we live in a culture that can afford not to such things. Bronze age rules for bronze age people.

Edited by Jotari
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3 hours ago, Jotari said:

Bronze age rules for bronze age people.

Exactly. 

4 hours ago, eclipse said:

Laws are a part of society - and to truly understand them, it means that the culture of that time MUST be taken into account.  The slavery laws make no sense in the context of our culture.  In the time that Deuteronomy was written, slavery was normal.

...well you basically just made the point I was trying to make (i.e. laws and moral judgements of Scripture are Human Laws and the product of the human cultures of the day--that's the context--written by men who invoked claims of divine authority to proof their laws against human critique. And the best evidence for this is a plain reading of what scripture actually says). Also note that I cite the aforementioned verses in rebuttal to the position being advanced by @John Denver Fan and the like that there's something uniquely awful about Islam. The point is that you can find those kinds of passages in any religious text from the period, to all the haters who like to pretend     that the idea of putting non-believers to the sword comes from Mohammad and everyone else was just sitting around drinking tea.

Edited by Shoblongoo
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On 02/28/18 at 5:35 AM, Jotari said:

 Bronze age rules for bronze age people.

Well I would disagree, The Ten Commandments is a divine law written by God to Moses in Chapter 20 verses 3-17 in the Book of Exodus. It applied back when it was written, and it applies now, people have been following those laws for thousands of years, even to the present day, I even try to follow them.

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34 minutes ago, John Denver Fan said:

Well I would disagree, The Ten Commandments is a divine law written by God to Moses in Chapter 20 verses 3-17 in the Book of Exodus. It applied back when it was written, and it applies now, people have been following those laws for thousands of years, even to the present day, I even try to follow them.

You misinterpret what I'm saying. Perhaps I should quote Shoblongoo again.

On 27/02/2018 at 3:33 PM, Shoblongoo said:

...except when the Scripture literally tells you: "Make war against the non-believers. Burn their cities. Kill their men. Rape their women. Enslave their children." 

And being a good person means having the mental wherewithal to say: "...ignore that part. Yes; I know--its in the Scripture. I don't care if we said the entire thing is the word of God. Treat it as Bronze Age rules for Bronze Age civilizations."

Parts of scripture should rightfully be ignored because they cover a culture and context we no longer live in. The words of the Bible (or any other book or moral guide or law) should be followed with some common sense. Honour thy father and mother and thou shalt not kill are great laws, but they're not great laws simply because they're in the Bible, they're great because they make sense and still apply to our context.

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8 hours ago, John Denver Fan said:

Well I would disagree, The Ten Commandments is a divine law written by God to Moses in Chapter 20 verses 3-17 in the Book of Exodus. It applied back when it was written, and it applies now, people have been following those laws for thousands of years, even to the present day, I even try to follow them.

Waaaaiiittttttt a minute. 

Are you saying that the Commandments of Exodus are divine law and the commandments of Leviticus and Deuteronomy aren't?  i.e.people who say that Biblical Laws and Values are beyond reproach because they come from God get to cherry-pick out only the parts of the Bible that they agree with, and dismiss the rest as man-made addendum without conceding "if a man can make a law and set it down in scripture with a claim that it is the word-of-god, the whole damn thing is fallible."  

If bronze age leaders made up the part about God endorsing murder and rape and slavery to morally justify the practices of the day. And you accept that this happened; in fact you go so far as to say that persons are "twisting scripture" if they interpret those passages as literal Commandments to do violence in the name of God.

...think about it...

...what exactly was stopping Moses from chiseling some laws down on stone tablets, then reporting to his people that he has spoken to God + God has given him the tablets and chosen him to be his wordbearer. (as a means of securing his status as leader of the Ancient Hebrews, and ensuring their continued obedience to his leadership)  

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The 10 commandments were meant to be more universal. Barring the first commandment, which assumes that God is above all other faiths, the other commandments aren't really specific to just one culture. Having a statue made of someone or something usually means one group puts them above others, making promises you can't keep is seen as dishonest, religious rest days gave rise to the secular weekend, and not biting the hand that fed you is something everyone should know. Every culture prohibits wanton slaughter and murder, adulterers aren't trustworthy, there are other consequences besides legal trouble for theft possible, and lying under oath makes one totally incredible forever. The last commandment is difficult, however. To not want what you don't have but someone else does take discipline, because greed and envy have always been prevalent, and in some cases are seen as virtues by many cultures. The other 9 are easy, it's the last one that's hard, and has been subject of many sermons by prophets in the Bible. Of all the sins there are, greed is the most damning among them, because there is always something someone wants.

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14 minutes ago, Hylian Air Force said:

The 10 commandments were meant to be more universal. Barring the first commandment, which assumes that God is above all other faiths, the other commandments aren't really specific to just one culture. Having a statue made of someone or something usually means one group puts them above others, making promises you can't keep is seen as dishonest, religious rest days gave rise to the secular weekend, and not biting the hand that fed you is something everyone should know. Every culture prohibits wanton slaughter and murder, adulterers aren't trustworthy, there are other consequences besides legal trouble for theft possible, and lying under oath makes one totally incredible forever. The last commandment is difficult, however. To not want what you don't have but someone else does take discipline, because greed and envy have always been prevalent, and in some cases are seen as virtues by many cultures. The other 9 are easy, it's the last one that's hard, and has been subject of many sermons by prophets in the Bible. Of all the sins there are, greed is the most damning among them, because there is always something someone wants.

(4) through (10) are universally good rules to live by that most cultures--religious or secular, with or without appeals to divine authority--could probably work out on their own.

(1) through (3) are strictly theistic, and are all culturally-specific to the Children of Abraham

Image result

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7 hours ago, Jotari said:

You misinterpret what I'm saying. Perhaps I should quote Shoblongoo again.

Nope I was doing a different book in the Bible, in that case Exodus. Anyways back to the topic. 

 

18 minutes ago, Hylian Air Force said:

The 10 commandments were meant to be more universal. Barring the first commandment, which assumes that God is above all other faiths, the other commandments aren't really specific to just one culture. Having a statue made of someone or something usually means one group puts them above others, making promises you can't keep is seen as dishonest, religious rest days gave rise to the secular weekend, and not biting the hand that fed you is something everyone should know. Every culture prohibits wanton slaughter and murder, adulterers aren't trustworthy, there are other consequences besides legal trouble for theft possible, and lying under oath makes one totally incredible forever. The last commandment is difficult, however. To not want what you don't have but someone else does take discipline, because greed and envy have always been prevalent, and in some cases are seen as virtues by many cultures. The other 9 are easy, it's the last one that's hard, and has been subject of many sermons by prophets in the Bible. Of all the sins there are, greed is the most damning among them, because there is always something someone wants.

I thought that the worst sin punishable by it was saying God's name in vain. Also I would disagree with the stealing as the most common. People are more likely to lie than to steal. In fact almost every person who lived has lied some point in their lives.

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...That's...a whole separate  set of objections I have to biblical morality and rulemaking based on the moral authority thereof...

If biblical morality informs you that taking the Lord's name in vain is a worse sin than murder, theft, or falsely accusing someone of a crime they didn't commit. 
 

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1 minute ago, John Denver Fan said:

I thought that the worst sin punishable by it was saying God's name in vain. Also I would disagree with the stealing as the most common. People are more likely to lie than to steal. In fact almost every person who lived has lied some point in their lives.

No, not even close. As for theft, what I meant is those that steal could end up in worse situations than those who do any of the other things, other than murder, mostly.

@Shoblongoo you could at least post an accurate 10 commandments. I know you don't necessarily care for Christianity, but the least you can do is post the correct version of the 10 commandments. The last two are a part of the same commandment, and the first one is 2 seperate commandments. 

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4 minutes ago, Hylian Air Force said:

@Shoblongoo you could at least post an accurate 10 commandments. I know you don't necessarily care for Christianity, but the least you can do is post the correct version of the 10 commandments. The last two are a part of the same commandment, and the first one is 2 seperate commandments. 

Image result for ten commandments

...well in that case its (5) through (10) universally good rules to live by; (1) through (4) strictly theistic and culturally-specific to the Children of Abraham.

That just skews the numbers further away from the Ten Commandments being universal rules of good conudct. 

 

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2 hours ago, Hylian Air Force said:

The 10 commandments were meant to be more universal. Barring the first commandment, which assumes that God is above all other faiths, the other commandments aren't really specific to just one culture. Having a statue made of someone or something usually means one group puts them above others, making promises you can't keep is seen as dishonest, religious rest days gave rise to the secular weekend, and not biting the hand that fed you is something everyone should know. Every culture prohibits wanton slaughter and murder, adulterers aren't trustworthy, there are other consequences besides legal trouble for theft possible, and lying under oath makes one totally incredible forever. The last commandment is difficult, however. To not want what you don't have but someone else does take discipline, because greed and envy have always been prevalent, and in some cases are seen as virtues by many cultures. The other 9 are easy, it's the last one that's hard, and has been subject of many sermons by prophets in the Bible. Of all the sins there are, greed is the most damning among them, because there is always something someone wants.

I hope you meant incredulous XD Because otherwise you just really like liars.

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2 minutes ago, Hylian Air Force said:

@Jotari Incredible also means not credible, or not trustworthy. I didn't use incredulous because that denotes absurdity. English is a bitch, ain't it?

Even if it might literally mean unbelievable, I think incredible comes with a heavy implication of grandeur. More so than incredulous has with absurdity. Course it's probably a case where the simplest word is the best I've untrustworthy.

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I've fucking had it.

This topic's being closed until I'm in the right frame of mind to read it.  Once I finish up other mod stuff, I'm off to bed.

EDIT: And thanks to the people who literally didn't read this (or chose not to invoke their reading comprehension), I'm now irritated, and no longer in the right frame of mind to reread it.  It's going to stay closed for longer.  If you want any sort of discussion regarding something as serious as religion, then I expect basic reasoning skills.

EDIT THE FINAL: Per other mod talk, this topic is staying closed.

Edited by eclipse
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