Let's talk about Zephiel

[MageSons]

So, we all know Zephiel is the bad guy in Binding Blade/Sealed Sword. He is also the same person that you need to save in Blazing Sword/Rekka no Ken.

If Jaffar and Nino killed Zephiel, FE6 WILL NOT EXIST and Roy wouldn't have to venture out Pherae. So, whose fault was it? The fault that made the FE6 storyline happen?

Here is my observation:

Jaffar and Nino was ordered to kill Zephiel right? And they didn't kill him. So, it's their fault. But, they are members of The Black Fang and the King of Bern, Desmond, had contact with the group, so, he sent out an order to kill his own son, so it's his fault right?

No, it isn't.

Desmond didn't treat Zephiel as his own "son" because they were "not alike". So, whose fault was it?

Enough of that for now, let's move on to Eliwood and his army.

The Queen of Bern, Helene, ordered Eliwood and his army to save Zephiel from the "assassination" attempt, so they saved him and blah blah blah, it's their fault because they intervened with Jaffar and Nino.

No, it isn't Eliwood's fault either. Right now, there are a few suspects:

Desmond

Helene

Black Fang as a whole

Jaffar and his change of heart

Nino for changing Jaffar's heart

Eliwood's army

And the tactician for ordering Serra/Priscilla to use that rescue staff on Zephiel.

And IntSys for making FE7 ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

Short Note, Feel free to ignore: I've been really delighted of the people replying to my thread but there's a point when we have to stop, it's not right now since more points need more discussion.

Short Note #2: Please respect each others opinions in this thread, I created this for discussion, not for disCUSSion (Bad pun, I know, I know.)

Edited December 20, 2016 by MageSons

[DarkDestr0yer61]

The names you were thinking of are Desmond (King of Bern) and Helene (Queen of Bern)

[MageSons]

The names you were thinking of are Desmond (King of Bern) and Helene (Queen of Bern)

Thank you for your good service, milord.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Blaming someone who had a chance to kill teen Zephiel and didn't for Zephiel's later actions is nonsensical. Jaffar and Nino can't see the future.

The only people who deserve blame for Zephiel's actions are Zephiel himself, and his father who drove him to madness by trying to murder him multiple times.

[Etrurian emperor]

The only one's to blame is Zephiel himself. Blazing swords does a pretty good job of showing that there was only a single person in the world who didn't think positively of Zephiel. Okay, it was his father and he tried to kill him. He's hardly the only Fire emblem character to go through that.

But at some point that person is gone and Zephiel is left solely with people that think very highly of him. If he starts thinking humanity is unworthy despite all that then the blame lies with him alone. Even when he's mad a lot of his generals seem to respect him a whole lot.

Perhaps Zephiel wouldn't be so unsympathetic to me if he had more enemies than just a single one. If there was a whole faction striving to keep him off the throne because Guinevere would be more easily controlled it would make more sense for him to be so down on humanity. Now he just strikes me as a gigantic drama lama.

[Magical Glace]

None of the characters in FE7 are prophets, except Athos but he's not relevant here (and the only way he describes Zephiel in the ending is a "Dark Star rising in Bern" implying even he can't tell what Zephiel specifically shall become).

None of the characters involved in BBD are at fault.

[Weeping Dalek (MK)]

None of the characters in FE7 are prophets, except Athos but he's not relevant here (and the only way he describes Zephiel in the ending is a "Dark Star rising in Bern" implying even he can't tell what Zephiel specifically shall become).

None of the characters involved in BBD are at fault.

ALSO, Athos wasn't even there during BBD, so they didn't know that until Light

The Black Fang are following orders

Eliwood is following orders

Jaffar and Nino had a change of heart, but they couldn't see what Zephiel would become

[Magical Glace]

ALSO, Athos wasn't even there during BBD, so they didn't know that until Light

The Black Fang are following orders

Eliwood is following orders

Jaffar and Nino had a change of heart, but they couldn't see what Zephiel would become

...That's why I said he's not relevant and that the Dark Star thing was in the ending?

[Weeping Dalek (MK)]

...That's why I said he's not relevant and that the Dark Star thing was in the ending?

I was adding to what you said

And yes, the prophecy is spoken as Athos is dying at the end

[Paper Jam]

For all Eliwood and his companions knew at the time, Nergal was a bigger threat to Elibe than Zephiel could ever be. And to stop Nergal, they had to ensure Zephiel's survival.

Retroactively preventing Zephiel from conquering Elibe would have simply meant that Nergal would do it 20 years sooner, and with much less resistance.

Edited November 2, 2016 by Paper Jam

[Weeping Dalek (MK)]

For all Eliwood and his companions knew at the time, Nergal was a bigger threat to Elibe than Zephiel could ever be. And to stop Nergal, they had to ensure Zephiel's survival.

Retroactively preventing Zephiel from conquering Elibe would have simply meant that Nergal would do it 20 years sooner, and with much less resistance.

Exactly, it would've taken Nergal less effort to conquer Elibe than Zephiel, Zephiel had to take an army and expend soldiers, Nergal had magic powerful enough to conquer Elibe himself, especially with the help of dragons

[Etrurian emperor]

And actually, if Nergal had just waited 20 years he could have drained all the quentessence produced by Zephiel's war on his leisure and open the dragon's gate that way.

[Weeping Dalek (MK)]

And actually, if Nergal had just waited 20 years he could have drained all the quentessence produced by Zephiel's war on his leisure and open the dragon's gate that way.

Yes, but that would've required that he eliminated Eliwood and friends, but eliminating them from the picture would result in Nino, Jaffar and Zephiel being dead, and then there would be no Zephiel to start that war

[BANRYU]

If you want to put the blame on SOMEone, I'd put in on Desmond for being a cruel and hateful piece'a shit, but yeah, I do agree with most people saying Zephiel is responsible for his own actions-- he's an adult by that point and should take responsibility for what he does, even if he did have a really messed-up childhood. But still, if he's never allowed to properly resolve and come to grips with the shitty way he was raised (child psychology isn't exactly a thing in this world or at this era of time, if I had to guess), then it's not really surprising that he's gonna have some issues, which needless to say is highly dangerous for the ruler of a powerful nation.

So, yeah... I'd blame Desmond, personally. And possibly Helene as well, not for rescuing her son (she's a mother, of course she's gonna try to keep him from getting killed why wouldn't she), but for contributing to the hateful relationship between herself and Desmond. You could make the argument that even if she'd tried, Desmond might still be too hateful, but they both deserve blame for refusing to reconcile and just making everything worse and worse for each other, not to mention their families and ultimately the whole continent lol.

Neither Eliwood's group nor Jaffar and Nino deserve blame, they were doing what was, at the time, morally the right thing. Even if they had known what COULD or MIGHT happen, killing Zephiel or allowing him to die would still be morally wrong, since he's still innocent at that point.

[Weeping Dalek (MK)]

If you want to put the blame on SOMEone, I'd put in on Desmond for being a cruel and hateful piece'a shit, but yeah, I do agree with most people saying Zephiel is responsible for his own actions-- he's an adult by that point and should take responsibility for what he does, even if he did have a really messed-up childhood. But still, if he's never allowed to properly resolve and come to grips with the shitty way he was raised (child psychology isn't exactly a thing in this world or at this era of time, if I had to guess), then it's not really surprising that he's gonna have some issues, which needless to say is highly dangerous for the ruler of a powerful nation.

So, yeah... I'd blame Desmond, personally. And possibly Helene as well, not for rescuing her son (she's a mother, of course she's gonna try to keep him from getting killed why wouldn't she), but for contributing to the hateful relationship between herself and Desmond. You could make the argument that even if she'd tried, Desmond might still be too hateful, but they both deserve blame for refusing to reconcile and just making everything worse and worse for each other, not to mention their families and ultimately the whole continent lol.

Neither Eliwood's group nor Jaffar and Nino deserve blame, they were doing what was, at the time, morally the right thing. Even if they had known what COULD or MIGHT happen, killing Zephiel or allowing him to die would still be morally wrong, since he's still innocent at that point.

Desmond more so than Hellene, Hellene loved Zephiel, the only real thing was that she was obsessed with making sure he took the throne, instead of Guinevere.

Zephiel and Guinevere loved each other, but Desmond hated Zephiel and Hellene resented Guinevere. Where Guinevere's mother (I'm pretty sure that's Limstella) is in all this, I dunno

[ping]

The only one's to blame is Zephiel himself.

Yeah, I agree, even though I see him a bit more sympathetic than you do. The own father trying to murder you will keep a lasting impression on a teenager.

But in the end, Zephiel is a individual himself, not just the result of Desmond's/Hellene's/Eliwood's/... actions and it's him who chose to genocide all humans. Doesn't make Desmond any less of a dick, of course.

Edited November 11, 2016 by ping

[Magical Glace]

(I'm pretty sure that's Limstella)

I'm pretty sure it's not Limstella, considering Limstella is an emotionless being working for Nergal that's probably infertile.

[Paper Jam]

I don't know... Poison can do weird things to the brain even if it isn't lethal, and Zephiel did take a nearly lethal dose of poison to feign his death.

If Zephiel seemed like a completely different man after that than he was before, that might be the reason why.

Edited November 11, 2016 by Paper Jam

[Kyne]

I'm pretty sure it's not Limstella, considering Limstella is an emotionless being working for Nergal that's probably infertile.

Yeah I'm pretty sure Limstella only ever contacted Desmond on official business.

[Paper Jam]

I thought it was Sonia, not Limstella, who was the link between the Black Fang and Desmond.

And I'm pretty sure that if Nergal had started creating his Morphs five or six years before the events of FE7, someone would have noticed. Thus, I believe that Guinivere was born before Sonia or any of the other Morphs were created, ruling out the possibility that any of them could be her mother.

[Etrurian emperor]

Yeah, it was Sonia not Limstella who was the agent to Bern's court and Sonia seems pretty emotional. The emotions are just all negative ones.

But I don't think Morph's actually can have babies.

[Paper Jam]

But I don't think Morph's actually can have babies.

Honestly, me neither. But I find it easier to argue that point based on chronology (i.e. Guinivere was already born by the time Nergal started creating his morphs) than get into such M-rated details about characters in an E-rated game.

[MageSons]

All replies aside, -we all know that the Japanese players who have finished FE6 and then played FE7 said nope in rescuing Zephy.- in my opinion, the one to blame here is Desmond, for being such a d*** of a father.

[Harvey]

Thank god people here understand that you shouldn't blame Jaffar and Nino for not killing Zepheil.

Although I do wonder what Hector meant when he said to him that they used to be friends and all of that.

Actually, despite the stories in both games being good, there are a few plotholes here and there. Like why doesn't Guinivere say something to him before Roy kills him? Why doesn't Blazing sword elaborate more on Bern's situation rather than focusing more on Nergal? We could get an idea of what actually made Desmond that stupid to constantly try to kill his "son" in the first place.

[Acacia Sgt]

Actually, despite the stories in both games being good, there are a few plotholes here and there. Like why doesn't Guinivere say something to him before Roy kills him? Why doesn't Blazing sword elaborate more on Bern's situation rather than focusing more on Nergal? We could get an idea of what actually made Desmond that stupid to constantly try to kill his "son" in the first place.

Actually, that last one was explained by Guinivere herself to Roy. Desmond's marriage with Hellene was potilical in nature, and they didn't really love each other. So as a result he didn't like Zephiel, the result of that union, either. Zephiel himself as a kid didn't fully knew why, so he tried to excel at many things to get his approval. But that only resulted in Desmond hating him even more, since to him it looked like he was trying to upstage him and be seen as the better ruler of the two. As a result, he hated the idea of Zephiel inheriting the throne, which is why he resorted to trying to kill him, so Guinivere could become Queen and the next King would be whoever she married.

Blazing Sword not focusing a lot on Bern's situation is likely a result of being a prequel game. After all, for those who played Blazing Sword having played Binding Blade first it's likely they would probably have considered the focus Bern got as enough for a prequel that was about something else, since they already know what's what there. As such, it's just an unfortunate case that most of the world didn't got the one that was released first of the two, where they do go in detail about it.