Ensemble Mafia - N5

[Elemina]

Basically we relied heavily on roles just because someone claimed a role while not considering their play at all. I agree with Yolo and Ryker.

[Refa]

Didn't really think about most of the roles TBH but I didn't like Irony's role on principle. It basically punishes mafia for getting lynched. I think a better variation would be every time two townies got lynched (didn't think too hard about the numbers), or something.

[Irony]

Didn't really think about most of the roles TBH but I didn't like Irony's role on principle. It basically punishes mafia for getting lynched. I think a better variation would be every time two townies got lynched (didn't think too hard about the numbers), or something.

The only problem with that is that it would encourage Ensemble members to lynch their own people. And that would suck. :/

[Elieson]

I like strong roles and personally, I do think this setup was pretty balanced. Watcher isn't THAT OP (especially compared to Alignment Cop or arguably even Tracker) and its ability to actually catch scum is very situational.

Watcher = Alignment Cop >>>> Tracker man. Unless I misunderstood.

[Elemina]

Shoutouts:

1. Ryker

Good playing with you again. It was interesting seeing yourself and I on the chopping block in this town. Since reputation and/or meta won't help us here as much.

2. Rainbow

You were my strongest town read, but I still highly disagree with the Ryker lynch and would have stayed off if not for a possible no lynch. I think you are going in the wrong approach regarding Mechanical Data. As you can see, by blindly believing Yedi, we lynched town when it would be more efficient to lynch Yedi over Ryker, who we could tell was townier over Yedi. I do not agree that lynching ryker simply for the 1v1 was good. It's like claiming a role, being CC'd, and then just being fine with picking which ever side since you are guaranteed 1/2 scum from the two.

Now what you call subjective fluff. I think you touched on SB and other's 'subjective fluff' and that helped you go towards the right direction. I think you are still wrong about your sheeping points regarding myself and Ryker, I never sheeped him and he wasn't sheeping me (besides the few times he followed on some pushes) Sheeping by itself is not scum indicative. As you can see, SB was scum and sheeped Blitz but I am not so sure you called him out for it. (You may have, I might be wrong)

I would like for you to consider more on 'subjective fluff' as you call it and not always rely on roles. I think you'll improve on reads this way instead of simply relying on roles. If someone CC's, who do you pick and why? The why is 'subjective fluff' and you can't ignore it.

Buddying is also not scum indicative.

Anyway you seem like a cool guy and I'm fine with arguing more with you all day. I'm willing to hear you out of course but I will tell you what I feel is right. My 'kitchen sink' throwing can use some tweaks but still, I think it's better to consider one person's overall play than just one post. That's cherry picking. (SB was doing that)

You say that you are consistently bad at Subjective fluff. I want you to try to improve on that. I challenge you to expirement with it. You'll find mafia more enjoyable and fulfilling if you do so, even in a game like this. I had fun finding scum. (It's why I play)

I respect your effort and saw that you were giving more than I was nearing mid-late game. I was pretty busy and couldn't read everything you were posting, but I tried to do what I could with the time I had. (I was mostly phone posting)

Also I never suspected you. Any time I came close to suspecting you was stating that your post on me seemed opportunistic, but I said you were the most likely townie out of others who were pushing me at the time. (And I was correct)

It is interesting that you were doubting me because I was so confident on my reads and this game I think my reads were mostly on point (besides Refa and then Spinal/Ryker/Irony)

3. Refa Elieson

Hey Refa. Sorry to get you riled up early game. I honestly did not see it, but I guess others noticed it. I can understand you being not as motivated from the reasoning you gave. Just at the time I thought it was a scum excuse, but you outing made me consider you might just be busy for real. I wasn't happy about the posting restriction you gave me but I laughed at the message you forced me to use in my posts. Making me look silly. :P

Elie, good stuff. I felt your 180 on Blitz was meh but otherwise I didn't have a problem with you. I just sheeped Rainbow's read on you at the end and hoped you were town.

4. Spinal

I was fine with your play. I disagree with you holding your vote but I know you mean the best with it. Thing is I'll probably still badger you to come with content due to this playstyle. I like to keep tabs on everyone.

5. SB

Well, you were scum so I understand why you were playing the way you were. Sad to see you replace out. It feels like you'd do the best out of the three scum.

6. Blitz

I don't remember what to comment on. I just think your approach was wrong and I will continue to fight you on it if I ever disagree. It seems I was correct on Hober Mallow and you simply attacked me for that. HM didn't give off any scumvibes.

7. YOLOSWAG

Lol scum I ignored you since I had other priority targets but you kind of lurked through and I saw you viewing when Ryker was hammered so it didn't seem like you cared to save town and just lynch like you usually do as scum. Also seemed odd that you and Yedi hadn't really fought in thread when I would expect more of a fight between the two of you. GG

8. Hober Mallow

Lol you I now understand your play completely. You complete me.

9. kirsche

Good play dude. Not much I can say since you died early. Thanks for being such a bro and supporting me.

11. Irony

Like I said, good play overall. I feel like you grew through-out, and I feel that you should try to ask more questions, be active, and promote discussion. Generating 3 top scumpicks as town should help you start, I think.

12. Green Poet

Hey Green Poet. I can agree that objectively, lynching your role was bad since you could prove it, but I would rather not let you do that since you'd probably lynch town anyway and your flip would be better. It would also help others remain alive and be able to contribute to the game. I think my problem with your slot is that you seemed townie to me, even when questioning me on numbers. I claimed because people were scum reading you on something I felt was a town mindset. You 'not thinking past that' seemed opportunistic given the timing. You should think past that earlier next time. Now you can see that players play roles differently than you do. You were also pretty inactive and didn't follow up with the townie vibe you gave me.

13. Yedi

I was really hoping you were town here. I feel like you and I would get more into an argument as we always do and I'd get annoyed with you. Hopefully that really wouldnt't happen in that case and we'd work together for once hehe. Anyway gg scum.

[Elemina]

I did like how some players were harping on my play and ryker's play in-game. I think that really helped town, critiquing on town's bad/mediocre play and telling them to improve it during the game instead of after. I liked it. I could post less. That I can agree with. I could improve on my casing or just not case at all. (Although I would re-read them)

I think people could do with less yelling and stuff if others are going to complain. I got complaints on my play but I saw some yelling from Blitz/Rainbow that should have been contained as well if Ryker and I were to take it easy. I think it's fairer to be consistent overall if this rule were to be enforced. I prefer civil/non-toxic > toxic anyway so I was willing to back down as I don't want to make anyone's experience as bad as others have for me (mafia scum mostly). Toxic games aren't fun. I will say that I have seen no actual rudeness from Ryker, but a difference in play. That's all.

[Paperblade]

scum QT: https://www.quicktopic.com/52/H/W6hUiBmAP6cA

GY QT: https://www.quicktopic.com/52/H/ZNyKssFTsUW

[Zkirsche]

Thanks PB.

Watcher = Alignment Cop >>>> Tracker man. Unless I misunderstood.

??????? Watcher is not nearly as good as alignment cop lmao. I had a rant about why watcher isn't really that powerful somewhere (maybe info dump) but I can't remember where. The problems with this setup were the combo of fulldoc + roleblock + *unlimited amnesiac*. Emphasis on unlimited amnesiac. Essentially a back up doc, crazy strong. With watcher as well it means two slots out of like, 6-8, are gonna be trap slots for scum to hit, providing either a guilty or a clear. I agree that scum could've played better but you and Proto are really underestimating town's strengths here.

Edit:

I would doc kirsche as town

Babe <3

Edit2: I suppose the amount of discussion going into this is an attest to the balance. Iunno I'm still leaning towards town too strong but it's not terrible, there's been much worse.

Edited November 22, 2016 by kirsche

[Ryker]

I think Watcher is closer to Alignment Cop than Tracker is to Watcher. I think Watcher is arguably better than Alignment Cop in some games much more than Tracker is comparable to either.

Alignment Cop is silly because it is crazy strong and the checks to it that are reliable are basically bastard modding (Godfather, Miller, Insanity, or Tailor). I don't think unlimited Alignment Cop has a place in closed set-ups.

[Refa]

Besides Insanity, none of the others are considered Bastard here (although Tailor is pushing it). Honestly, still wouldn't stop an unlimited Alignment Cop from being pretty strong.

[Elemina]

Every time someone townreads me I cringe a little bit.

I look intensely on all those who town read SB for 'just existing' or that didn't look into him closer! :P

Lynch YOLO, watch Irony, make sure Irony roleblocks Trump and that everyone knows it (just in case DaBear is scum, which is unlikely imo), insta-win

wth is Town fumbling around for

Have to be cautious and have a back up plan. Sometimes things don't go as planned. We had one more mislynch and I would prefer on directing town to the next most likely scum if I were to die that night [in the case that Gorf was somehow not scum even though I was sure on him, I just made the mistake of quick hammering town in another game so being extra careful here]. From your perspective, you are spoiled (probably) so it's easy for you to come to a conclusion 'just lynch gorf' besides us who are still blind and can only go on 'subjective fluff'. :P (Since for us, nothing is confirmed before flip so we still have to think 'what if Gorf...') I wouldn't stray from his wagon due to that, he would be the lynch regardless. Yet I would consider it just in case. I am thorough and I like to double check things.

Edited November 22, 2016 by Elemina

[Ryker]

Besides Insanity, none of the others are considered Bastard here (although Tailor is pushing it). Honestly, still wouldn't stop an unlimited Alignment Cop from being pretty strong.

As they aren't most places, but that's silly as well.

Godfather is saying "Okay, you have a cop, but you're gonna have to just pretend innos don't mean anything. Have fun!"

[Kriemhild]

why do I get a wall of text from Elemina while everyone else just gets a paragraph at most

Of course I was "wrong" about you and Ryker sheeping each other, because you weren't doing it consciously, but that was my perception as a third party. And yes, sheeping and buddying are not scum-indicative but depending on how they manifest it is very possible for a player to perceive scum intent from either of those. I completely agree that I was "wrong" about those reads, but that's exactly one of my main issues with "subjective fluff": it can actually be wrong. Whether an opinion is good or bad is not based on whether the conclusion is correct or not. This also relates to your point about your reads being mostly correct; a correct read does not necessarily mean that either the reasoning behind your read or on how you presented it was good. It is very possible for players to form correct conclusions from terrible reasoning, or incorrect conclusions from excellent reasoning; the latter being especially more common when the reasoning is based on subjective data instead of objective data. I really think you should try to focus more on the reasoning than the conclusion, both when considering other players' opinions, and when presenting your own.

Note, this doesn't mean I think subjective fluff is useless. I do believe that subjective fluff is very valuable and important, and adds more depth to the game (through behavioral components) than leaving it as a logical/chance-dependent puzzle. I do still prefer analyzing objective data over "subjective fluff", and I am admittedly terrible at "subjective fluff" despite appreciating its importance. But I am still trying to improve at analyzing subjective fluff. My posts in D1-D3 were based on actual effort, even if I did a terrible job of it.

As for the Ryker lynch, I think you're still missing my point there. It was nothing like picking whichever side of a claim-counterclaim 1v1 without distinguishing, because I did explain (in text walls) why Ryker would be a better lynch, through probabilistic arguments, motivation-based arguments, and even worst-case analysis. I did NOT blindly believe in Yedi, and the fact that I was "wrong" does not mean that my decision was bad. To give an extreme analogy, it's like saying that the decision to try killing a dangerous boss using a 99 Hit attack was bad because the outcome was that the attack missed, whereas there was no one who could actually hit the boss with 100 Hit anyway. Like I said, I think you should stop looking at the outcomes and focus more on the reasoning.

Note, even though I'm writing a wall of text in reply, I'm not actually trying to be aggressive here. I'm just trying to explain myself, please don't take it the wrong way. I do think you played really well, and I'm glad that you were able to overcome your issues and play better later on in the game, and I do agree and appreciate your points about subjective fluff being important. Thank you.

[Kriemhild]

Have to be cautious and have a back up plan. Sometimes things don't go as planned. We had one more mislynch and I would prefer on directing town to the next most likely scum if I were to die that night [in the case that Gorf was somehow not scum even though I was sure on him, I just made the mistake of quick hammering town in another game so being extra careful here]. From your perspective, you are spoiled (probably) so it's easy for you to come to a conclusion 'just lynch gorf' besides us who are still blind and can only go on 'subjective fluff'. :P (Since for us, nothing is confirmed before flip so we still have to think 'what if Gorf...') I wouldn't stray from his wagon due to that, he would be the lynch regardless. Yet I would consider it just in case. I am thorough and I like to double check things.

Oh, no, that plan was perfect, and was almost exactly what I was thinking of myself. What I was facepalming was the 70 or so hours of fumbling around before it got to that point, when this should have been established in like, the first hour.

[Prims]

i could maybe make up a 13p set-up on the fly if neither randa or sb are hosting. the small queue is pretty empty rn.

[Grace]

are we complaining about how watcher is more a protective role than an investigative one? no?

then why

edit: more seriously, watcher in closed is not nearly as broken as watcher in open. let me tell you. the ability to functionally trade 1:1 or 2:2 in a cc scenario in open is insanely good. whereas in closed there's sometimes a way out

Edited November 23, 2016 by Curly Brace

[Kriemhild]

I fail to see how Watcher could be considered stronger than Alignment Cop or even Tracker. Alignment Cop gives an explicit Town/Mafia reading, Watcher gives results that could mean a lot of things and are very often not indicative of alignment at all. Sure, if the Watcher happens to check the Mafia nightkill target who ends up dying, then it can catch scum, but that's usually just a lucky occurrence and it could get muddy if there were multiple players visiting the target. The only consistently useful occasion I can think of is when a role like a Doctor is exposed, since they're natural Mafia targets, but even then the Watcher would be unable to save the Doctor and it only serves to give the Town a revenge strike while exposing the Watcher.

Outside of the lucky occasions where the Watcher visits a dying player visited only by one player (killer), the Watcher tends to have a hard time making good use of their info without drawing attention to their results. And they also tend to pressure players into revealing the nature of their actions due to watch results, and this is often free info to the scum that reveals little about the player' alignments.

Tracker is mostly in the same boat (i.e. not knowing exactly WHAT the player did), but at least the info the Tracker gets is always about the player they visit, so they can use their role to track players that they find scummy or with doubtful claims, thus reducing the luck dependency on a successful catch. Furthermore, the only players they pressure into revealing info are players that they felt they had a good reason to track, so Trackers never find themselves in a position of using their info to pressure a player that they weren't anticipating, making it less likely for the Tracker to trigger unhelpful info leaks.

Meanwhile, the Alignment Cop is much more OP than either of those, being able to immediately determine alignment. A Guilty result is pretty much a guaranteed lynch, because Millers are generally expected to claim asap (like, early D1).

Yes, Godfathers can exist, but so can Ninjas. And whenever an Alignment Cop reports an Innocent result, the players generally always consider the Godfather possibility (even if only in the back of their head). Meanwhile, Watchers generally don't consider the Ninja possibility because well, pretty much ANYBODY might be the Ninja and the Watcher won't have a clue. At least Trackers can be wary of Ninja possibilities when they find a player visiting nobody. Also, when an Alignment Cop/Tracker gets multiple Innocent/No-Visit results, they would at least know that no more than one of those results are incorrect (due to there being generally being no more than one Godfather/Ninja), whereas a Watcher can not deduce anything of that sort while a Ninja messes around. Finally, a flipped Godfather/Ninja can verify the past AlignmentCop/Tracker results that were not on the flipped target, whereas a flipped Ninja says nothing about past Watcher results. In fact, it could give the Mafia a free way out (e.g., "See, I told you it must've been a Ninja who killed the Doctor that you watched!" ~ Scum who actually killed the Doc)

I'm tired and I need to sleep, but I really don't get why Town Watcher is considered better than Town Alignment Cop or even Town Tracker. Mafia Watcher is great though, I agree, but Town Watchers are relatively weaker imo.

tl;dr - alignment-oriented data (Alignment Cops) is always great, targeter-oriented data (Tracker) is great for scumhunting suspicious targeters, whereas target-oriented data (Watcher) is only situationaly useful, e.g. hot targets.

Edited November 23, 2016 by Rainbow

[Refa]

Watcher is better than Tracker because it's easier to guess who is likely to be killed (or, at least, someone whose role you don't want to be fucked with) over guessing who is likely to kill.

[Zkirsche]

Trackers can also catch liars if claimed last but yeah they're not great either.

[Grace]

Watcher gives results that could mean a lot of things and are very often not indicative of alignment at all.

sure, but have you considering what the watcher threatens to do? if you have a clear, the threat of a watcher means that clear is not a safe kill in a world where there's no doc, etc. if a watcher sees people targeting the clear, they're either 1) a protective role or 2) a non-town roleblocker. you don't want to be caught on the clear if you can avoid it

etc. the result itself isn't the strong point of a watcher, it's the threat to non-town it provides and hence is more of a protective role than an investigative

anyway, it's just arguing subjective semantics so it's not really worth contributing more

[eclipse]

Oh man, I disagree with Rainbow's post again. Immensely.

IT KEEPS HAPPENING

Y'know, this could be the start of an amazing romantic comedy. . .

Ahem! Funny quotes!

Content is hard, time to never post it again.

We should turbo SB while he is asleep to honour SF tradition.

This is only tradition for you and Shin.

guys i didnt put in my kill cuz i got called in to court by my baby momma to pay child support

i did what was right for the youth of america. Xplease be understanding as i get a shot off tonight

A VOTE FOR YOLO

IS A VOTE AGAINST CHILD SUPPORT

The last one was funny for someone who was watching the game.

[Ryker]

Curly had it

It's rare, even after Day 1, not to have a pulse on the game to the point where you know of at least one player that most of town thinks is town. Also correct in a lot of ways about how it functions as a pseudo-protective role.

If you are a clear, the doc is already flipped, and the watcher sees someone target you, then that information is huge. Either the clear dies and you lynch the guy, or the clear lives and claims roleblocked and you lynch the guy. You don't play around Ninja the same way you don't play around tailor and both are horrific roles anyway.

[SB.]

5. SB

Well, you were scum so I understand why you were playing the way you were. Sad to see you replace out. It feels like you'd do the best out of the three scum.

Cheers I guess.

I'm basically done with mafia now. I don't really enjoy the game much anymore and since we stopped playing my ability to not get overly emotional about the game has kind of completely vanished and not playing beats feeling miserable whenever something goes wrong/you have to post but don't want to. The amount of posts earlygame (which I still think were not helpful for the most part) did not help this much either.

Also Watcher is broken but we didn't play well so this loss was deserved anyway.

[Elemina]

I don't think Watcher was used much anyway. Plus Spinal was away and never even cc'd.

[Dragonflare7]

Congrats to the winners! This was certainly an interesting game to watch... ^^'

But Irony...good stuff. Played your first game of NOC extremely well, it was really something to watch, and perhaps something I can learn from.

NOC continues to scare me to this day :P