If you could change one major thing about the plot in every Fire Emblem installment, what would it be?

[ping]

In that case our positions don't seem to differ all that much. I think nobody here really disagreed that the BK sucked pretty bad in Radiant Dawn? It's mostly about how much that should be taken into account when talking about PoR!BK.

[Alazen]

The Black Knight (instead of Zelgius the General of Begnion) is a bluntly unneeded character in RD whose attempted characterization (see Ike calling him his last teacher) clashes with how he was shown in PoR (see him threatening to rape or otherwise inflict ''horrors'' on a teen girl).

Edited November 4, 2016 by Alazen

[Jotari]

Both Tellius games: Don't keep making the beorc solely responsible for the hostility between the races.

Its a bit hard to take the message that racism is bad seriously when one of the two races is obviously superior. Every source of conflict can be traced back to the beorc, the beorc who don't have a problem with Laguz are often deemed the exception and every Laguz who's wary of beorc comes off as fully justified. Even the Laguz who negatively affect the relation between the races only do this after the beorc do something horrible to their race first.

I've seen this sentiment before and while it is true to a certain extent, I think there are some noteworthy examples that stop the Beorc being outright superior. You do encounter a lot of Lauguz bandits throughout the game, the Laguz treat the branded worse (though that's a criminal case of telling and not showing) and most prominently, the one actually behind everything was a Laguz (albeit a sympathetic one). Dhegensea also states that the Beorc and Laguz go through periods where one is on top and the other is on bottom, this is just one such period for the Beorc. So a lot of the elements are there just not expressed enough.

Genealogy: Make Julius be the one in favor of brainwashing Julia.

It was always a bit out of character for Manfroy to ensure the only thing that could stop them remained alive. Manfroy has successfully manipulated everyone in the story but then slips up so badly. It would be more in character if the teenaged and immature Julius would send his brainwashed sister off to kill her friends for a quick laugh.

This makes so much sense.

Awakening

How did Chrom teach Lucina how to fight when he died in the other timeline when she was between 1-2

recall in the begining of Awakening we saw Robin kill Chrom in another timeline

it lines up in the game itself when they go to fight Validar

if your going to do time travel, do it the way they do if Futurama, don't go back to change something rather go back in time because you are needed to cause an event to happen

In the original timeline Emmery was assassination instead of killing herself led to a longer conflict with Gangrel meaning all the events were moved up. This could have better explained in game since differences in timelines are usually the most interesting thing about multiple timelines.

Edited November 4, 2016 by Jotari

[blah the Prussian]

In that case our positions don't seem to differ all that much. I think nobody here really disagreed that the BK sucked pretty bad in Radiant Dawn? It's mostly about how much that should be taken into account when talking about PoR!BK.

Well, I think that the BK shouldn't have been in the story at all, and that RD retroactively destroys him is one of those reasons.

[OakTree]

Gaiden: Don't make the game, there, problem solved. (Have i told you guys how much i hate Gaiden?)

Blazing Sword: Remove Lyn. she's as important to the story as the random bandits you fight at the beginning of most FE games.

[ping]

Well, I think that the BK shouldn't have been in the story at all, and that RD retroactively destroys him is one of those reasons.

Nevermind, then :D My opinion is that while RD destroys one of the reasons to have the Black Knight in the story, he's still doing fine in the role he was given (menacing, seemingly unstoppable personal enemy for Ike).

I personally find Ashnard to be the weaker one of the two villains and not because the BK claims too much of his screentime or overlaps too much with his role (I believe that's close to your opinion? Sorry if I remember that wrong). It's just that I don't think his social darwinistic agenda is that interesting, especially because the game doesn't really give us any hints how Ashnard became the man he is. Compare that to Zephiel, Lyon, Gharnef, Hardin or even Nergal (although in the last case, it's too obscure as well) - for everyone of them we have at least a little bit of backstory why they ended up on the pointy end of {Lord}'s sword. For the BK, we at least learn that there is a connection between him and Greil, although I concede to the point that RD's follow-up on this is fucking terrible. But Ashnard is just some evil dude with a messed-up idea of Utopia.

[NinjaMonkey]

In that case our positions don't seem to differ all that much. I think nobody here really disagreed that the BK sucked pretty bad in Radiant Dawn? It's mostly about how much that should be taken into account when talking about PoR!BK.

I'm fine with how the Black Knight was done in Radiant Dawn.

Edited November 4, 2016 by NinjaMonkey

[Moblin Major General]

FE4: I would show young Seliph leaving before Belhalla. We all know Seliph escapes, but you never really see the relationship Seliph had with Sigurd or even Seliph himself. There are other children around his age shown in Jugdral, why not him? Even Leif had a portrait as a child, but not Seliph. And seeing Seliph leave gives more foreshadowing to the inevitability of Belhalla instead of dropping a nuke on the plot of the game.

FE5: Why the hell is Grannvale looking for Leif? I really think that Thracia should've happened because Leif declared war on Freege, not just him being doggedly pursued by assholes who have nothing better to do than kick countries while they're down.

FE6: I would've rather had Eliwood have more of a role in the story, maybe even replacing Merlinus as Roy's mentor. A mentor is meant to teach, but all Merlinus does is rage and fuss about how much of a dick Zephiel is. Eliwood might still not forgive Zephiel for killing Hector, but the context of Blazing Sword could definitely put Zephiel as a tragic villain that just reeks of nihilism rather than slaughtering people for the evuls.

FE7: Give Renault much more context. We see Pent several chapters before he's recruited, but Renault deserves as much time to develop. Why not have Renault tell them where Black Fang Fortress is? Or have him Warp them to Helena's manse? Also, his reason for joining is stupid. Too loud? Just put some headphones in, man.

FE8: I would give the route split exclusive characters. Cormag is of course recruitable in both routes, but instead of Eirika recruiting him in her route, Glen instead survives his encounter with Valter. This, of course, means Ephraim was unable to stop Selena from killing Duessel. Valter is instead the boss of Chapter 13 in Eirika's route, and Selena is fought in Chapter 15, vengeful against Ephraim for killing Vigarde, with Ephraim equally angered for Duessel's death. This is a dichotomy I thought should've been there, but wasn't.

That's all I have for now, but I can come up with more later.

[blah the Prussian]

Nevermind, then :D My opinion is that while RD destroys one of the reasons to have the Black Knight in the story, he's still doing fine in the role he was given (menacing, seemingly unstoppable personal enemy for Ike).

I personally find Ashnard to be the weaker one of the two villains and not because the BK claims too much of his screentime or overlaps too much with his role (I believe that's close to your opinion? Sorry if I remember that wrong). It's just that I don't think his social darwinistic agenda is that interesting, especially because the game doesn't really give us any hints how Ashnard became the man he is. Compare that to Zephiel, Lyon, Gharnef, Hardin or even Nergal (although in the last case, it's too obscure as well) - for everyone of them we have at least a little bit of backstory why they ended up on the pointy end of {Lord}'s sword. For the BK, we at least learn that there is a connection between him and Greil, although I concede to the point that RD's follow-up on this is fucking terrible. But Ashnard is just some evil dude with a messed-up idea of Utopia.

I think Ashnard being some evil dude is precisely what makes him good. He's an ideologue through and through; he's essentially a Fascistic dictator that wants to enforce his vision of the world. In short: The Mad a King's War happens, not because some evil cult was manipulating Ashnard, not because Ashnard was possessed by a demon, but because ASHNARD and Ashnard alone wanted to enforce his worldview. The conflict in POR is entirely based on a war between humans, and that, I think, is the story's biggest strength. Could Ashnard do with some more backstory? Absolutely. But the potential for a great villain, far better than the Black Knight, is there with more characterization, characterization that would exist if the Black Knight was cut out.

[Jotari]

FE4: I would show young Seliph leaving before Belhalla. We all know Seliph escapes, but you never really see the relationship Seliph had with Sigurd or even Seliph himself. There are other children around his age shown in Jugdral, why not him? Even Leif had a portrait as a child, but not Seliph. And seeing Seliph leave gives more foreshadowing to the inevitability of Belhalla instead of dropping a nuke on the plot of the game.

FE5: Why the hell is Grannvale looking for Leif? I really think that Thracia should've happened because Leif declared war on Freege, not just him being doggedly pursued by assholes who have nothing better to do than kick countries while they're down.

FE6: I would've rather had Eliwood have more of a role in the story, maybe even replacing Merlinus as Roy's mentor. A mentor is meant to teach, but all Merlinus does is rage and fuss about how much of a dick Zephiel is. Eliwood might still not forgive Zephiel for killing Hector, but the context of Blazing Sword could definitely put Zephiel as a tragic villain that just reeks of nihilism rather than slaughtering people for the evuls.

FE7: Give Renault much more context. We see Pent several chapters before he's recruited, but Renault deserves as much time to develop. Why not have Renault tell them where Black Fang Fortress is? Or have him Warp them to Helena's manse? Also, his reason for joining is stupid. Too loud? Just put some headphones in, man.

FE8: I would give the route split exclusive characters. Cormag is of course recruitable in both routes, but instead of Eirika recruiting him in her route, Glen instead survives his encounter with Valter. This, of course, means Ephraim was unable to stop Selena from killing Duessel. Valter is instead the boss of Chapter 13 in Eirika's route, and Selena is fought in Chapter 15, vengeful against Ephraim for killing Vigarde, with Ephraim equally angered for Duessel's death. This is a dichotomy I thought should've been there, but wasn't.

That's all I have for now, but I can come up with more later.

You don't think that was heavily foreshadowed in Chapter 5? We don't actually see Seliph leave but there is a very noticeable scene where Oilfey does leave taking the kids with him. Sure we don't see the kids but the narrative moment was still there. Then it's immediately followed up with Quan's slaughter and access to multiple lover conversations that essentially boil down to "Hey, things are almost over. Yet somehow I don't feel safe or reassured. Gee, hope nothing bad happens." Like it would have been great if they did give Seliph a portrait in Gen 1 but I don't think it's fair to suggest the massacre came out of nowhere. It was plenty foreshadowed with a hefty does of foreboding for me.

[wheelsonfire]

I've either played or not the plot of every Fire Emblem, so this will be a long one. Beware of spoilers!

FE1: I know there were hardware limitations on the NES back then, but they could've fleshed out the characters a bit more. I wanted something to make me care about some of them, even though the game itself wasn't bad. Also, Nyna is shown able to fight in BS FE (with Thoron and Recover, no less) and there is prototype data with her as a Paladin. So why doesn't she fight?

FE2: Again, make the characters more memorable and some moments seemingly less out of nowhere (e.g. Alm being Rudolph's son and Slayder being able to be fought as a double). Also, could someone please explain to me why Falcoknights can do extra damage to monsters? Because they can, and there is no explanation for it (they cannot do it in any other game). Also, why did the Pegasus sisters from FE1/FE3 need to be there? Auldn't we have gotten other characters to play with?

FE3: Why doesn't Marth promote? After all this time and journeying, he should be able to. Not to mention, why can't Nyna get a happy ending? And why were those four characters only recruitable at literally the last mission of the game, and unable to do anything? It seems like drama for drama's sake at that point, especially since all of those characters were important in the first game... If you're going to put them in the last map, at least make it so they can damage the boss or something...

FE4: Seliph and Julia should have been an option for those who wanted it (would have had some interesting gameplay implications as well). Deidre should have stayed around until the end or not have been recruited at all (what's the point of having a character that's only around for one chapter, even if it's for plot purposes). Cuan and Ethlin's survival should have triggered a different response from the game, considering it is possible and NPCs who were supposed to die can have the plot manipulated.

In the second-generation, make everyone recruitable at once. FE4 is so long that I should not have to do two separate playthroughs to see everyone I can recruit... And Areone should have been recruitable by Altenna, seeing as the game doesn't have a Gotoh equivalent... Speaking of Altenna, why doesn't she suspect that Trabant's not her father from the beginning... If she has the markings of Noba, and no one else does, I think she would realize the truth pretty quickly...

FE5: Oh dear, this game's kind of a mess... It's something that can easily be brushed off and ignored as non-canon, because it messes with it... To start, remove things that don't make sense with FE4 (e.g the controversy between Delmud and Nanna, and Eveyl's connection to Brigird). Make things that don't make sense or come out of nowhere make more sense (Manfroy has a granddaughter, and he can use a special staff? Linoan having Narga when it stated there are only a few members of Narga left). Xavier's recruitment makes no sense; do something else with it. Finally, Cyas is Alvis's son. H Hshould have been more important.

FE6: Roy's promotion should not have been so late, and Guinevere should have been the Lord like in the original drafts... Fae should have been more important to the plot, considering she's one of the last full-blooded dragons left, and the game is all about defeating them... Instead, she only appears in her recruitment mission and, then doesn't appear until towards the end, and only you get the true ending...

FE7: I feel like Leila and Ninian should have survived... Technically, Ninian did come back, but why couldn't anyone else? I also feel like there should have been a part in the game where we did see the dragons' world or at least hear more of it... It sounded like such an interesting plot point, but was left in the dust... And as others have mentioned, Nergal should have been redone... He had an interesting backstory, but I doubt few people are going to go to the lengths needed to get it... And why isn't Aenir alive at this time, or at least mentioned more? I feel like she should be... Something also should've been done with Kishuna... Why couldn't he speak? And why was he a magic barrier? There were so many things that could have been answered, yet it was just a giant blank...

FE8: Ephriam should've have his flaws examined in more detail and he should not have been a Lord (I feel like that the majority of the game centers around Erikia, with him only being around for a few missions). Lyon also should've been savable. it would've made things interesting, I felt. And it would've given the twins some part of their past back... And Ephriam should not have decided to become king (leave it to Erikia). I Iwas pretty clear he didn't want it, and probably would've been horrible at it...

FE9: Elincia should have been the Lord alongside Ike (maybe she's fleeing and finds the mercenary group in trouble and they protect each other's backs...). Also, why didn't the herons fight? It was the perfect opportunity to introduce Americans tofighting dancers, yet it was wasted... Also, the laguz seemed like they were superior to beorc (more power and lived longer). Yet, if racism is bad, why is that the case?

FE10: Almeda had the same problems as Nergal, only worse... Interesting back story, but no one's ever going to take the time to get it... Made worse because you need a separate game to unlock it all... Pellas and Lehran should have been recruited on any playthrough... The game should've been able to be played normally, with Miciah (sp?) as the main Lord... Failing that, make some parts where you can grind so the characters in each part can be equal to each other... A lot of characters fall apart because they're not available for the majority of the chapters... Speaking of Lehran, more foreshadowing would've been nice, instead of his backstory coming out of nowhere at the end... And Miciah (sp?) should not have been related to Sanaki... Sanaki should've had some other reason she cannot hear the goddess (maybe she is too young, or something about being close to Lehran). and if there is a whole new tribe of laguz, show them off more... Have them be their own separate tribe (not Beast laguz), or visit their home ... Something...

FE11: Should've been modernized gameplay wise... And this time it doesn't have hardware excuses... This side chapter requirement should've been removed... (the chapters themselves can stay)

FE12: Now Marth really doesn't have a reason not to promote... Also, give him multiple romance options... Many other protagonists now have the option, yet he doesn't? Either in this or the last game, explain Nagi's story in full... It could have been interesting... Also, Chris can stay, but have a better reason for having him/her being written out of history...

FE13: Consolidate the arcs somehow... Also, one could write the game from the children's point of view, and have them go back and find their parents... I think that would be more interesting, because there's so much we don't know about them... And they would be less likely to pop up out of nowhere... Also, tell Morgan's story; there is no reason for him/her not to have one... Finally, Robin is supposed to be in audience surrogate, but works better as his/her own character, because there's so much of his/her past we already know... Also, the game should decide whether Lucina is a Lord or not...

FE14: Oh boy, I have a lot of gripes with this game, but I'll stick to a few... My main point was how the game is handled in terms of three games when it really should have been one game... This one game also could've had elements of the past (e.g. certain parts not allowing you to grind) to satisfy all fans... As three games, it just feels repetitive and that you are playing the same game over three times... Corrin should have been their own character, and the Dragon transformation should've been more relevant. the children should be their own units rather than second gen... Get rid of cameos and Expies... Bring back things that were left out of the international releases for those that want them (mainly thinking of Private Quarters but also some supports). Mikoto should've survived... It would have been an interesting twist, and would have made her bond with Corrin more meaningful... Lilith should have been playable normally... There's a lot invested into her character, but it doesn't amount to anything... And get rid of Scarlet sacrifice in Revelations... It's just drama for the sake of it...

[Sentinel07]

FE12: Now Marth really doesn't have a reason not to promote... Also, give him multiple romance options... Many other protagonists now have the option, yet he doesn't? Either in this or the last game, explain Nagi's story in full... It could have been interesting... Also, Chris can stay, but have a better reason for having him/her being written out of history...

Yeah, it would have been nice if they actually gave Marth a class to promote to.

And multiple romance options would DEFINITELY have been nice if not for the fact that the game throws his engagement with Caeda in the player's face.

[ping]

I think Ashnard being some evil dude is precisely what makes him good. He's an ideologue through and through; he's essentially a Fascistic dictator that wants to enforce his vision of the world. In short: The Mad a King's War happens, not because some evil cult was manipulating Ashnard, not because Ashnard was possessed by a demon, but because ASHNARD and Ashnard alone wanted to enforce his worldview. The conflict in POR is entirely based on a war between humans, and that, I think, is the story's biggest strength. Could Ashnard do with some more backstory? Absolutely. But the potential for a great villain, far better than the Black Knight, is there with more characterization, characterization that would exist if the Black Knight was cut out.

I think I see your point, but I'm still conditioned to expect a better reason for a villain to be villainious than just being randomly evil or having a twisted world view or (in Ashnard's case) vision. In that regard, I much prefer Lehran as a villain - he has a reason to be completely disillusioned with both laguz and beorc, making him much less arbitrary than Ashnard.

I don't see why the existence of the BK hampers Ashnard's characterization, though. Ashnard does have screentime, it's just wasted most of the time by him being all evil and stuff and saying that his plans are unfolding nicely. But that's a flaw in Ashnard himself, not something that the BK forces onto him. There would have been many ways to make Ashnard more engaging as a villain - for example if we would have seen him leading the assault on Crimea and interact with Elincia at the very start of the game. Or if he would interact with anyone else but his direct underlings at all. Or if the game gave any more spotlight on his past other than stating that he's always been evil (I'm thinking of him bragging how he killed his whole family to become king). Or if he was built up better as Elincia's nemesis (I mean, he killed her parents and in PoR everyone thinks he also killed Renning). Giving him the BK's scenes might be another way, but I honestly don't think it would be the best one. But that's because I still think the BK (ignoring Radiant Dawn) is a decent villain and nemesis to Ike. ;)

[Jotari]

Revealing all the stuff with Rajaion, Almedha and his son would have done a lot to further Ashnard's character in Path of Radiance imo. The way they handelded that plot point really confuses me. Like it was clearly planned in advance but it's given such odd focus and lack luster explanation that's shoved into the end of the game. They were willing to give some foreshadowing to Micaiah's existence, you think they could have at least mentioned somewhere that Ashnard has a wife and son.

[Paper Jam]

I do actually think the opposite of DHE, though: the shitness of the BKs identity retroactively destroyed the legitimate goodness that came from his mystery.

What should the BK's identity have been, though?

Remember, he had to be in league with Sephiran (per PoR chapter 11).

[Jotari]

What should the BK's identity have been, though?

Remember, he had to be in league with Sephiran (per PoR chapter 11).

What if he was Sephiran! Oh wait. That wouldn't have made any sense at all...Carry on.

[blah the Prussian]

What should the BK's identity have been, though?

Remember, he had to be in league with Sephiran (per PoR chapter 11).

Zelgius could have worked if they had made him more of a character in POR. From there, make him legitimately evil as the BK in RD. Zelgius's reasoning for being involved with Sephiran's plot is honestly such a mess that I think it should have changed altogether. The best thing to do, though, is to not have Sephiran's plan in the first place, and focus entirely on Ashnard as a villain. The second game, then, could be entirely about the Senate. Two nice, human driven conflicts, a refreshing change from previous FEs.

I think I see your point, but I'm still conditioned to expect a better reason for a villain to be villainious than just being randomly evil or having a twisted world view or (in Ashnard's case) vision. In that regard, I much prefer Lehran as a villain - he has a reason to be completely disillusioned with both laguz and beorc, making him much less arbitrary than Ashnard.

I don't see why the existence of the BK hampers Ashnard's characterization, though. Ashnard does have screentime, it's just wasted most of the time by him being all evil and stuff and saying that his plans are unfolding nicely. But that's a flaw in Ashnard himself, not something that the BK forces onto him. There would have been many ways to make Ashnard more engaging as a villain - for example if we would have seen him leading the assault on Crimea and interact with Elincia at the very start of the game. Or if he would interact with anyone else but his direct underlings at all. Or if the game gave any more spotlight on his past other than stating that he's always been evil (I'm thinking of him bragging how he killed his whole family to become king). Or if he was built up better as Elincia's nemesis (I mean, he killed her parents and in PoR everyone thinks he also killed Renning). Giving him the BK's scenes might be another way, but I honestly don't think it would be the best one. But that's because I still think the BK (ignoring Radiant Dawn) is a decent villain and nemesis to Ike. ;)

Ashnard really doesn't need a huge reason. One idea I had relates to him being 11th in line to the throne- his siblings bullied him as a child so he had a massive resentment towards hereditary rule. It doesn't need to be anything big. I mean, Hitler's reason was that he felt his country was betrayed, the reason hardly needs to be complicated. Most ideologues believe in their ideologies just because they do. You can't really point to a detailed backstory for your political views, can you?

The problem with not giving him any of the BK's scenes is that that means you have to fundamentally alter the length of the game. You need to add scenes. And yeah, I guess we disagree about the Black Knight. It's not necdesarily that he's a bad nemesis for Ike, it's just that Ashnard would do the same thing and it more interesting in terms of motivations.

[fangpoint333]

FE1 and 11: Gets a pass as it's a first game and remake of a first game which came out during a time when plots weren't really a thing.

FE2: There's a second Falchion. This never gets brought up again. They could have at least changed the name.

FE3: Hardin needed more development. His whole turning evil over love felt tacked on as there was nothing that really implied it earlier in the game. Also it's supposed to feel like a betrayal, but we knew so little about him that it didn't really have an impact.

FE4: Part 2 needed more story to it. It could easily be summarized as "the kids of the first Gen characters kill all of the bad guys, the end." Only Celice really has any importance of the cast story wise with everyone else just being added muscle. Levin is only there for exposition and Julia isn't even required to be recruited back in the last chapter.

FE5: The plot of the game quickly disappears after you escape from Leydrick. After that it's just you going around to recruit more allies and liberate places. There are some actual setbacks though which is an improvement over FE4 part 2. The part with Veld being behind everything seems like it was developed right at the very end for giving Leif a personal reason to fight the boss. They should have increased his presence in the story and have Leif gradually find out more details about Veld being involved so that he's actually aware of it.

FE6: Jahn's info dump should have been gradually spread out over the game somehow. The true main villain wasn't developed until the very end along with the dragons which made Zephiel just feel like a generic evil overlord for most of the game. Then after you beat him, it's like "oh yeah, there are dragons that we were supposed to address" which is further cemented by the fact that the last few chapters are optional.

[Also on a side note, I don't know why they had to make you choose between invading Bern from either Ilia or Sacae. Ilia doesn't share a border with Bern so to invade Bern you have to travel through Sacae anyways. They should have just made you do both. This is just for gameplay though as nothing important happens during this part storywise.]

FE7: The whole Elbert thing was poorly explained and quickly got dumped after he died. Kinda felt like a loose plot thread that would get addressed again but never does and was something that I wasn't able to take my mind off.

FE8: They should have split the recruitable characters up better between the two routes. Didn't really make much sense to have characters randomly change geographic locations just because the party follow a different twin. I would have had a FE10 style party split in which some characters are locked to either group and you pick and choose which other random characters go with which group and then play both storylines, but that may have been a bit much for a GBA game.

FE9: The biggest issue I had with the game were the identities of the mysterious riders. Zelgius only shows up for one scene in which he does nothing which only exists to set up the reveal in the next game. Renning doesn't even get that as he's only name dropped. They should have given a few chapters in which these two show up more as talking faces or as ally units. Could have stuck an additional prologue chapter in which Elincia escapes and one where Zelgius helps you deal with a force attacking you from the rear or something.

FE10: Micaiah and the Dawn Brigade needed more development. I'm fine with the GMs being as important as they are to the plot in part 3 because they're the heroes from the previous war. However Micaiah could have an equal amount of screentime given her true identity. Her backstory was kinda glossed over among other things, like how she wound up in Daein, how much of her own history she knows, and they just kinda gloss over the implications of these things at the end. Like was she aware that she was actively trying to murder her own sister?

Also obligatory blood pact complaint.

FE12: Removing the inclusion of the avatar. As much as I like the additional base conversations which fleshed out old characters and new ones somewhat, the avatar eventually led to the current affiliation of the series to a waifu/husbando game.

FE13: Everything revolving around Grima and his cult was my issue. Among the many secret societies trying to resurrect evil gods/dragons/demons/demondragongods, This cult gets the least explanation. Garnef was evil because he got jealous, Lopt cult was evil because they want to bring back their own glory days of them being an empire, Jahn because of a species war, Nergal because he's so broken that he doesn't remember his original motivation, Lyon is possessed, Ashnard is a social Darwinist and is insane, Lehran lost faith in humanity. Validar wants to destroy the world... why? Also the whole Grima reviving himself thing. They spend the whole game trying to take the Fire Emblem, then it turns out they don't need it because he can just revive himself.

FE14: I'm still playing this so I don't have an answer.

Edited November 5, 2016 by fangpoint333

[Dark Holy Elf]

In that case our positions don't seem to differ all that much. I think nobody here really disagreed that the BK sucked pretty bad in Radiant Dawn? It's mostly about how much that should be taken into account when talking about PoR!BK.

I rather explicitly did. As I said, I think Zelgius is at least somewhat interesting in Radiant Dawn; we see why he became psychopathically obsessed with Greil and it's about as plausible an explanation for his derpy actions in PoR (e.g. repeatedly letting Ike and company escape) as anything I could personally think of. I appreciate that Radiant Dawn acknowledges how fucked up this guy is, something that PoR didn't seem to want to do, making him instead be "menacing and mysterious".

I'm just not seeing what his PoR appearance has going for him. The only thing about him I found remotely compelling is what his hidden agenda was with regards to Sephiran. Otherwise, he's a stock enemy general with no given motivations, little characterisation, and overexpanded plot powers: he walks around with "invincible armour" and the ability to teleport, and basically the only reason he doesn't kill off Ike and/or his friends at various points is because he doesn't feel like it. That's not a good character at all. I don't give characters points just for being mysterious, because that's pretty much deferring character worth to a later part of the story.

I don't see why defeating Greil is an "idiotic motivation". The appeal of the Black Knight is that he is menacing and mysterious, both his identity and agenda. Path of Radiance is the set-up and then Radiant Dawn gives him a more detailed backstory. Had you only seen A New Hope, would you think Darth Vader a bad character?

Killing someone to see if you can is certainly an idiotic motivation, and was what I was referring to.

I can see the parallels to ANH Darth Vader. And for what it's worth, I don't think Vader would be a beloved character years later had he died at the end of Episode 4 and never appeared again; it was definitely the later movies that made him who he is. However, I do think ANH Vader is a decent character overall, and far better than BK, for a few reasons:

-He's built up more effectively (we get meaningful bits of his backstory very quickly, even though they later turn out to be misleading)

-He actually plays by the rules while simultaneously developing those rules (we see a fair bit of what the Force can and can not do through him)

-He interacts meaningfully with other characters (Leia, Tarkin) and in particular has an interesting dynamic with Obi-Wan (far better than BK/Greil).

-He gets excellent voice work (insert obvious joke about Tellius VA work here)

-Finally, let's be honest here: "Darth Vader" is a far better name than "the Black Knight", since it doesn't immediately call to mind a Monty Python sketch.

[Jotari]

The real truth of the matter is that the Black Knight's impact is only about 30% writing and actions vs 70% design and music. Show someone who's never played the games before a picture of him while playing the theme and they'll probably admit he seems pretty cool. These things matter an awful lot when it comes to the visual medium. I don't think the Black Knight (or Darth Vader for that matter) would be nearly half as beloved as they are if their main appearance was in a novel.

Also on the train of other potential people the Black Knight could be, how awesome would it have been if it turned out he was actually Sigrun? Sure you'd have to do some hand wave with the voice but that could have been a much more awesome betrayal for Sanaki than Zelguis was. Plus just imagine the Black Knight on a flying pony XD

[Rezzy]

Oh. Nice topic. Shame I didn't catch it four days ago. Going to throw out my opinions without looking at anyone else first. From the games I've played.

FE4: There are a lot of players behind the scenes in the first game who we simply don't see that are crucial to the plot of the game. Reptor and Langbolt should at least get some more screen time and Kurth and Ring should have at least some lines of dialogue. I'd also like if Sigurd actually interacted with his father once before he died. I guess what I'm really saying is there should have been some kind of Gen 0 that dealt with and established all the parent figures during the campaign in Isaac. Maybe that's a bit much to ask from a SNES game that's already pretty big but...remake...Hmm?

FE5: The inconsistencies between Holy War and Thracia bug me far more than they should. Namely Faval and Ishtar should have attacked Leif after he reclaimed Leinster castle and they should have had at least one confrontation with Blume. Even if it was the failed first attack in Chapter 7.

FE6: I do like the plot of FE6 a lot and I think they manage to do well with the characters but even I have to admit it's pretty minimalistic. Roy has some good characterisation but people just don't tend to notice it since so few lines are dedicated to it. So I guess in this case just give me the same plot but changed so that there's more of it.

FE7: I see why they had the final boss be the Fire Dragon in terms of Gameplay but I'd like a better explanation as to why they're fighting it in universe. The only two dragons we see come fully through the gate are chill dudes who don't want to destroy humanity and the entire plot line revolving those dragons are about the refugees from the Scouring. Why then is the final boss treated as a generic beast with no motivations or intelligence. There's really no explanation. Before that point the end game plot is Negral stealing the dragons power to become invincible, nothing (that I can recall) actually suggests the dragons are our enemies in anyway except when they're on screen. At least it gives me the funny head cannon that Athos and Brammiond were genocidal maniacs who were manipulating Eliwood and his party to kill innocent dragons by claiming humanity would somehow be wiped out within months if a single dragon got loose (despite humanity winning that last war).

FE8: Longer. Make it much longer. Or make it so you play through both paths simultaneously (and expand the cast as a result).

FE9: I feel Elincia could have been a playable character much earlier who has a plot based promotion when she would naturally join in game. That's might seem like more of a gameplay thing that a plot based thing but I think it would significantly change how she's viewed in the plot.

FE10: I usually like two minds, one body plots but I don't at all like how Yune was handled in Radiant Dawn. I felt she completely overwrote Michiah's character and regulated her to the backseat of everything. Either make Yune some kind of independent character or at least give Mickey some relevance in the end game beyond burning the blood pact.

FE11: Give Hardain something to do. He's an immensely important person in universe and as a remake the game knew yet he's basically as important as Ogma for all its worth.

FE12: All those extra characters from throughout the series that they throw at you should have been implemented better.

FE13: Tiki should have had some relevance. Her impact on the plot could basically have been replaced with a scroll saying "Go get stones" Given what we see in the Future Past, Tiki and Lucina should have known each other. She should have been a driving force for fighting Grima like Athos or Gotoh before her.

FE14: Basically change all of Conquest so the plot is about deconstructing and breaking the Camus archetype regarding Xander by recruiting the other royals to the path of righteousness one by one. Instead of basically being "It's cool to be evil and slaughter innocents. Oh hey, wait that's not our father. Then all those things are not cool!" It's hypocritical and feels vaguely racists towards demons if that's possible. The plot to actually get Garon to reveal his true self by sitting on the throne is also really forced. To service that removal I'd probably make Hoshido a bit darker in the Conquest route. Maybe by having Xander become King 70% of the way through the plot and actually having him sue for peace but Hoshido refuse due to their anger and sense of loss of honour. Forcing Corrin to conquer (get it) for the sake of keeping his own kingdom safe.

I'm not sure if you read a few pages back, but I wrote quite a bit on how Elincia could have played a bigger role in PoR.

[Jotari]

I'm not sure if you read a few pages back, but I wrote quite a bit on how Elincia could have played a bigger role in PoR.

Yeah, I did catch up on the forum after making my blind post. I agree with you on the join time and supports but I would rather she would start off as a sword locked class to make her seem more like a lord, or maybe a sword stave class like the princess in Holy War. While the rally idea is a good one that makes senses (and would be admittedly better for gameplay), I still just see her as a sword unit that promotes to a Pegasus Knight in my mind. Mist also promoting into a mounted healer kind of just makes the whole thing confusing.

Edited November 6, 2016 by Jotari

[Topaz Light]

Since I left out a few games that I've played, it's time for Part 2!

• FE7: Prior to actually finding him, it's mentioned that Elbert agreed to go along with Darin's plans to overthrow Ostia. The game never really expands on this; did Elbert genuinely feel that Ostia needed to be unseated from its position of power for whatever reason? Is he a more megalomaniacal character than we're otherwise led to believe? Was he lying in a ploy to gain Darin's trust so he could gather more information and get himself into a good position to unravel Darin and Ephidel's plans from the inside? We just don't know, because the game never bothers to tell us. That really deserves a little more focus, clarity, and resolution to it.
• The Sacred Stones: Did the game ever really explain why Selena was so loyal to Vigarde? If it did, I don't really remember what the explanation was, and that's kind of important to making a Camus actually come off as a sympathetic, tragic character rather than just an idiot who can't see that their liege is clearly evil (or literally dead and being used as a puppet by another entity). Granted, this is hardly something Sacred Stones is uniquely guilty of among games in the series, but it's the only thing that really stood out at something I would change.

[Azure Sen]

FE7: Prior to actually finding him, it's mentioned that Elbert agreed to go along with Darin's plans to overthrow Ostia. The game never really expands on this; did Elbert genuinely feel that Ostia needed to be unseated from its position of power for whatever reason? Is he a more megalomaniacal character than we're otherwise led to believe? Was he lying in a ploy to gain Darin's trust so he could gather more information and get himself into a good position to unravel Darin and Ephidel's plans from the inside? We just don't know, because the game never bothers to tell us. That really deserves a little more focus, clarity, and resolution to it.

I'm pretty sure this was just supposed to be a red herring to add some tension to the story, and was never meant to amount to anything, given that everything else points to Elbert investigating Darin after being informed of his plans and getting in over his head.

The Sacred Stones: Did the game ever really explain why Selena was so loyal to Vigarde? If it did, I don't really remember what the explanation was, and that's kind of important to making a Camus actually come off as a sympathetic, tragic character rather than just an idiot who can't see that their liege is clearly evil (or literally dead and being used as a puppet by another entity). Granted, this is hardly something Sacred Stones is uniquely guilty of among games in the series, but it's the only thing that really stood out at something I would change.

Basically, Selena's village was poor to the point of having no way to pay taxes or even feed themselves for the winter one year, with the people considering "horrible things" (probably cannibalism, considering the historical cues) to survive when Vigarde sent them supplies despite their inability to pay taxes, saving them. So, unlike most Camuses, she actually has a reason to be loyal to Vigarde, though as always your mileage may vary on how sympathetic that makes her. She also recognizes that Vigarde is no longer the man she was so loyal to and knows he'll never be that man again but can't bring herself to betray him regardless. She explains all this in Chapter 13 of Ephraim's route.

Edited November 6, 2016 by AzureSen

[Jotari]

Since I left out a few games that I've played, it's time for Part 2!

• FE7: Prior to actually finding him, it's mentioned that Elbert agreed to go along with Darin's plans to overthrow Ostia. The game never really expands on this; did Elbert genuinely feel that Ostia needed to be unseated from its position of power for whatever reason? Is he a more megalomaniacal character than we're otherwise led to believe? Was he lying in a ploy to gain Darin's trust so he could gather more information and get himself into a good position to unravel Darin and Ephidel's plans from the inside? We just don't know, because the game never bothers to tell us. That really deserves a little more focus, clarity, and resolution to it.

I actually like the ambiguity they went with there. Course I would have liked it if the plot actually acknowledged it to some extent and have Eliwood deliberate over his feelings towards his late father, but if even the slight possibility exists of Elbert being a megalomaniac then it makes his character more interesting than being generic nice guy.