Why Does Manfroy Want To Kill Cyas?

[Jotari]

So apparently Manfroy wants to kill Cyas because Cyas has Fala Holy Blood. I find this really infuriating for a number of reasons.

-First off, as Alvis' son (and the son of a mother without Holy Blood), Cyas should have minor lopt blood. Manfroy should be be manically obsessed with Cyas' survival not his death. The lopt sect got ridiculously lucky that there was minor lopt blood still hanging around after their first empire was defeated. Cyas should be their insurance that can allow them to rise again hould Julius somehow fall.

-Secondly, why does he only have it in for Cyas? Manfroy displays absolutely no desire to get rid of Burian or Ishtar or any of the other holy blood wielders out there that could potentially harm Julian. In fact, he actively keeps alive the one holy blood character than in canon stands any chance of defeating Julius! Also need I point out the fact that Cyas is pretty loyal to the empire already and trusted enough to personally attend to Julius? Trying to kill the guy is a sure fire way to actually turn him into your enemy.

-Thirdly, what does this plot point actually accomplish? It's mentioned in maybe one line and then never brought up again. Manfroy is not a driving force in the game and no one attempts to kill Cyas at all (though coming to think of it a chapter where you have to defend him from lopt assassins would be pretty cool and would make more sense than Cyas just showing up going, "Hey, you guys need help? I'm totally a good guy believe me. Oh wait, Sety is here. NVM."). All it seems to do is retroactively explain Aida's absence from the Second Gen of Holy War (which admittedly I did find a bit strange given she had a pretty direct role in Sigurd's death. Even now I reckon Holy war would make more sense if you fought her instead of Hilda in Chapter 10).

Anyway that's just me ranting. If anyone has any other things to point out about this that make the plot point more problematic or justifiable than do share.

[Moblin Major General]

Aida had every reason to believe she was doing the right thing by killing Sigurd. Had she not been killed by Manfroy, she would've rallied Grannvale to overthrow Julius, and Manfroy thought she would've implanted those same sentiments on Saias. The only reason Seliph fights Arvis at all is because Arvis was powerless even to surrender to him. Julius's reign would not have lasted, and the survivors of Belhalla would've been vindicated 7 years before Seliph formed the Liberation Army. Aida and Saias were aware of Manfroy's intentions, and therefore were to be killed, and without Aida's father, the latter would've.

[The Draco Knight]

- However, It is also true that we do not know if Cyas indeed inherited the Lopt minor holy blood from Arvis, so, for what we know, he may have got only the Fala major holy blood.

- Ishar was under Julius's protection, so trying to harm her, would mean to go agsinst Julius for Manfroy.

And regarding Julia, is obvious they did that just to let the player have an easy way to defeat an otherwise very difficult final boss.

I don't know what to say about the others tough

- If I may ask, why do you think that Aida would have been a better boss than Hilda in chapter 10?

I mean, Hilda had control over Miletos, so It would make sense for her to be in chapter 10, while Aida...doesn't.

[Jotari]

Aida had every reason to believe she was doing the right thing by killing Sigurd. Had she not been killed by Manfroy, she would've rallied Grannvale to overthrow Julius, and Manfroy thought she would've implanted those same sentiments on Saias. The only reason Seliph fights Arvis at all is because Arvis was powerless even to surrender to him. Julius's reign would not have lasted, and the survivors of Belhalla would've been vindicated 7 years before Seliph formed the Liberation Army. Aida and Saias were aware of Manfroy's intentions, and therefore were to be killed, and without Aida's father, the latter would've.

How much of that is speculative and how much of it is backed up by official statements and quotes? Because Aida doesn't hang around nearly long enough in Holy War to establish any sort of character trait other than loyal to Alvis. Not saying it's wrong, it does make a certain degree of sense, but I don't recall anything specifically alluding to it in Thracia. I'm pretty sure the reason stated was because Cyas was descended from Fala which is a much pettier reason.

- However, It is also true that we do not know if Cyas indeed inherited the Lopt minor holy blood from Arvis, so, for what we know, he may have got only the Fala major holy blood.

- Ishar was under Julius's protection, so trying to harm her, would mean to go agsinst Julius for Manfroy.

And regarding Julia, is obvious they did that just to let the player have an easy way to defeat an otherwise very difficult final boss.

I don't know what to say about the others tough

- If I may ask, why do you think that Aida would have been a better boss than Hilda in chapter 10?

I mean, Hilda had control over Miletos, so It would make sense for her to be in chapter 10, while Aida...doesn't.

Is there really any doubt that Cyas inherited Lopt minor blood? The only cases where blood wasn't passed down is for Julius, Julia and Seliph where they're receiving Holy Blood from three different sources. Every other possible combination in the series default and otherwise always passes down minor blood. Wait, no Scopio doesn't have any blood but I'm pretty convinced that's an oversight much like Hilda randomly having Dain Holy Blood for no explicit reason at the same point. And while four exceptions to seem like quite a lot, three of them are special cases and the overwhelming number of examples that suggest it puts little doubt in my mind that Cyas has minor lopt blood. Furthermore I'm pretty sure in universe there's no way to actually detect minor blood in someone. References are made to marks on the body but they always refer to Major Holy Blood users.

As for Aida in Chapter 10, it stems a lot from my general dislike of fighting the same boss more than once in a Fire Emblem game. Plus it would just seem fitting given Aida's one defining trait was helping Alvis, fighting her as one of the final enemies before Alvis himself just makes sense.

Edited November 4, 2016 by Jotari

[Acacia Sgt]

-It's likely that Manfroy was overconfident. They had the Narga Book locked up in Velthomer Castle, so he likely thought there was nothing that could threaten Julius, hence Saias becomes now a threat due to his Major Fala. The only real mistake he does is brainwashing Julia and sending her to attack the Liberation Army, instead of outright killing her after being captured.

-The other Major Blood carriers also have high positions within the Empire. Saias's grandfather also mentions this. Whatever danger Saias was in from the Lopt Sect, it virtually vanished once word came out of his Major Blood and had now a position in the Empire. He does bring up though that by the time of the games, the threat of the Lopto Sect had grew to the point that not even that could protect him. Which to me brings up a good point. Had the Lopt Sect won and fully taken over Jugdral... what would've happened to all the Major Blood carriers that were loyal to the Empire?

-I suppose that in the end Saias was created to explain why there was no Major Fala character in Genealogy's 2nd Gen. After all, considering both Alvis and Dierdre have Major Bloods, and their Lopt Blood is Minor, it would've taken three kids for the Major Lopt to show up, as both Majors needed to be passed down first.

[The Draco Knight]

Is there really any doubt that Cyas inherited Lopt minor blood? The only cases where blood wasn't passed down is for Julius, Julia and Seliph where they're receiving Holy Blood from three different sources. Every other possible combination in the series default and otherwise always passes down minor blood. Wait, no Scopio doesn't have any blood but I'm pretty convinced that's an oversight much like Hilda randomly having Dain Holy Blood for no explicit reason at the same point. And while four exceptions to seem like quite a lot, three of them are special cases and the overwhelming number of examples that suggest it puts little doubt in my mind that Cyas has minor lopt blood. Furthermore I'm pretty sure in universe there's no way to actually detect minor blood in someone. References are made to marks on the body but they always refer to Major Holy Blood users.

As for Aida in Chapter 10, it stems a lot from my general dislike of fighting the same boss more than once in a Fire Emblem game. Plus it would just seem fitting given Aida's one defining trait was helping Alvis, fighting her as one of the final enemies before Alvis himself just makes sense.

But they still remembered to give the Forseti minor holy blood to a random boss mage knight

Anyway, I doubt it because the game never states that Cyas may have inherited the Loptyr minor holy blood.

Also, even if he did inherit it, what use would he have in Manfroy's plans?

Alone, Cyas would have been useless because, in order to have one born with the loptyr major holy blood, he should be "paired" with another woman that possess the Loptyr minor holy blood, who does not exist as Deirdre was the last woman that had such a thing.

There is also the fact that, like Arvis, Cyas would never agree to help manfroy to rebuild the Lopt Empire.

I see, but, in this case, wouldn't be better to have her replace the random Bishop guy that protects Castle Miletos when Julius and Ishtar are doing that game where the first who kills a member of your army wins?

I mean, Arvis is in that castle before going to Chalphy so he could be able to call her and order her to protect Castle Miletos., not to mention that said part is just right before the part with Arvis and Palmark with some children running from some dark mages.

It's just a tought of mine tough.

[Rinehart]

This is easily explained if you turn your thinking around: instead of "why does Manfloy want to kill Saias", think about it as "what would have to be true in order for Manfloy to want to kill Saias"?

It's clear from Saias' personality and interactions with other characters that he is a well-intentioned individual who does not support the Empire's more atrocious policies (the Child Hunts, for instance). Examples of this include (1) Saias helping Mareeta remove the curse from the Darkness Sword and (2) Ishtar's conversation with Saias about Julius' illness implies she knows Saias does not want Julius to fall victim to Loptyr.

Now, Manfloy is not stupid, and he is aware that Saias is not committed to the Lopt Sect's cause. This is one difference between Saias and Burian, who is viewed as a mere soldier who has no political power. Secondly, and much more importantly, Saias is in a position of great influence within the Empire. This is evident in the fact that Saias has access to Julius in Julius' most vulnerable state. Manfloy knows that Saias is an extremely charismatic individual, and that Saias' father Alvis has already tried to betray the Empire. Thus, while Manfloy may not be willing or able to kill Saias directly, he certainly wouldn't have any qualms if Saias died under mysterious circumstances. It is apparent that Saias was aware of this, which is why he eventually broke from them and discreetly assisted the Liberation Army in taking down the Lopt-held Manster District.

As to your first point, logic dictates that Manfloy must have a way of knowing that Saias does not have any Lopt blood. Holy Blood inheritance is not an exact science, and children don't always inherit all of their parents' blood. Additionally, by this point Julius was already well under way to being possessed by Loptyr, and Manfloy's first priority would be to ensure Julius' survival above anything else. Saias proved to be a clear obstacle to this goal, and hence was seen as a liability.

Edited November 5, 2016 by Rinehart

[Jotari]

But they still remembered to give the Forseti minor holy blood to a random boss mage knight

Anyway, I doubt it because the game never states that Cyas may have inherited the Loptyr minor holy blood.

Also, even if he did inherit it, what use would he have in Manfroy's plans?

Alone, Cyas would have been useless because, in order to have one born with the loptyr major holy blood, he should be "paired" with another woman that possess the Loptyr minor holy blood, who does not exist as Deirdre was the last woman that had such a thing.

There is also the fact that, like Arvis, Cyas would never agree to help manfroy to rebuild the Lopt Empire.

I see, but, in this case, wouldn't be better to have her replace the random Bishop guy that protects Castle Miletos when Julius and Ishtar are doing that game where the first who kills a member of your army wins?

I mean, Arvis is in that castle before going to Chalphy so he could be able to call her and order her to protect Castle Miletos., not to mention that said part is just right before the part with Arvis and Palmark with some children running from some dark mages.

It's just a tought of mine tough.

It's not just that one boss in chapter 9. The mage sisters you fight in the end game have minor Forseti too as does. Which gets me thinking, I don't think Levin's Uncle Daccar and the other one have any Holy Blood so maybe it's intentional. Still seems inconsistent though given Maria's Minor Lopt Blood managed to persist for hundreds of years. Well Cyas might not be willing to revive the empire but neither was Alvis and he still did. If Julius dies and Cyas is still around the simple solution is to do exactly what they (inadvertently) did with Cigyun and breed two of his children together children.

This is easily explained if you turn your thinking around: instead of "why does Manfloy want to kill Saias", think about it as "what would have to be true in order for Manfloy to want to kill Saias"?

It's clear from Saias' personality and interactions with other characters that he is a well-intentioned individual who does not support the Empire's more atrocious policies (the Child Hunts, for instance). Examples of this include (1) Saias helping Mareeta remove the curse from the Darkness Sword and (2) Ishtar's conversation with Saias about Julius' illness implies she knows Saias does not want Julius to fall victim to Loptyr.

Now, Manfloy is not stupid, and he is aware that Saias is not committed to the Lopt Sect's cause. This is one difference between Saias and Burian, who is viewed as a mere soldier who has no political power. Secondly, and much more importantly, Saias is in a position of great influence within the Empire. This is evident in the fact that Saias has access to Julius in Julius' most vulnerable state. Manfloy knows that Saias is an extremely charismatic individual, and that Saias' father Alvis has already tried to betray the Empire. Thus, while Manfloy may not be willing or able to kill Saias directly, he certainly wouldn't have any qualms if Saias died under mysterious circumstances. It is apparent that Saias was aware of this, which is why he eventually broke from them and discreetly assisted the Liberation Army in taking down the Lopt-held Manster District.

As to your first point, logic dictates that Manfloy must have a way of knowing that Saias does not have any Lopt blood. Holy Blood inheritance is not an exact science, and children don't always inherit all of their parents' blood. Additionally, by this point Julius was already well under way to being possessed by Loptyr, and Manfloy's first priority would be to ensure Julius' survival above anything else. Saias proved to be a clear obstacle to this goal, and hence was seen as a liability.

Given that then Alvis would have been a much bigger threat to their plans than Cyas considering he actually wields Valflame and technically has a position higher than Julius in the hierarchy yet Manfroy seems satisfied just keeping Alvis around as a puppet.

Another point I've just remembered now is that Julius actively rescued Areone when he was about to be killed by Seliph's army. Even though Areone's loyalty to the empire was extremely dubious (and he does in fact betray them the next time you see him). I do like the idea of a secret Genocide against the other Holy Blood users by the lopt sect but it just isn't supported by what we see in FE4 (especially Manfroy's blunder of keeping Julia alive. The more I think about it the more I like the suggestion that it should have been Julius' mistake instead). Course if it is a retcon it wouldn't be the only thing Thracia attempted to change.

[Rinehart]

It's not like Manfloy would have been able to just kill Alvis. He did the next best thing, which was to relegate Alvis to a puppet position within the Empire and let Alvis be Grandbell proper's first line of defense against the rebels. It is hinted in FE4 that Julius was able to defeat Alvis in a battle after the latter confronted Julius, but Julius' sentiments after Alvis' death shows that he likely would not have actually killed his own father if given the choice.

As for Arion, it was Julius who rescued him, not Manfloy. Manfloy was the tactical brain behind the Empire, while Julius was arrogant and made impetuous decisions. Julius simply didn't think anyone could be a threat to him (as evidenced by his battle quote) and therefore did not care what happened to the other descendants as long as they served him.

I don't think there was a "secret genocide" against other descendants; Manfloy simply did not trust Velthomer and thus wanted to do away with Saias. Which, it turns out, was a justified suspicion since Saias did eventually betray the Empire.

[Acacia Sgt]

It's not just that one boss in chapter 9. The mage sisters you fight in the end game have minor Forseti too as does. Which gets me thinking, I don't think Levin's Uncle Daccar and the other one have any Holy Blood so maybe it's intentional. Still seems inconsistent though given Maria's Minor Lopt Blood managed to persist for hundreds of years. Well Cyas might not be willing to revive the empire but neither was Alvis and he still did. If Julius dies and Cyas is still around the simple solution is to do exactly what they (inadvertently) did with Cigyun and breed two of his children together children.

Given that then Alvis would have been a much bigger threat to their plans than Cyas considering he actually wields Valflame and technically has a position higher than Julius in the hierarchy yet Manfroy seems satisfied just keeping Alvis around as a puppet.

Another point I've just remembered now is that Julius actively rescued Areone when he was about to be killed by Seliph's army. Even though Areone's loyalty to the empire was extremely dubious (and he does in fact betray them the next time you see him). I do like the idea of a secret Genocide against the other Holy Blood users by the lopt sect but it just isn't supported by what we see in FE4 (especially Manfroy's blunder of keeping Julia alive. The more I think about it the more I like the suggestion that it should have been Julius' mistake instead). Course if it is a retcon it wouldn't be the only thing Thracia attempted to change.

Actually, I think the sisters have one of each, Fala, Tordo, and Seti, which... meakes things more complicated if they really are sisters all three. Or I think it was three of the Dreadlords, I forgot. Well, I'd still put it to Manfroy being confident Julius was in no danger. Hence Saias becomes more of a problem than a boon due to his Major Fala. And to be fair, getting rid of the Minor Lopto is not that much of a problem. All Saias would need to do is simply not have a son/daughter, or get married with another Major Blood carrier and simply not have enough kids for the Minor Lopto to be passed down.

To be fair, Areone only says he's betraying the Empire for Althenna. Seliph wouldn't have been able to convince him otherwise. I think said genocide of the Holy Blood carriers would've happened once the Lopto sect won. As it is, they can't really touch them without alerting anyone of their intentions and not be able to reliable fight back.

[Rinehart]

Actually, I think the sisters have one of each, Fala, Tordo, and Seti

The Pegasus sisters in the Final Chapter all have minor Holsety. It's the Dark Warlords that have a mix of different minor Holy Bloods.

Edited November 5, 2016 by Rinehart

[Jotari]

As for Arion, it was Julius who rescued him, not Manfloy. Manfloy was the tactical brain behind the Empire, while Julius was arrogant and made impetuous decisions. Julius simply didn't think anyone could be a threat to him (as evidenced by his battle quote) and therefore did not care what happened to the other descendants as long as they served him.

Yet it's Julian who wisely suggest they outright kill Juila and Manfroywho's all "Nah, it'd be super humiliating to brainwash her. No way this can backfire." It's like their personalities just swapped for that one plot point.

Edited November 5, 2016 by Jotari

[Sartek]

Is there really any doubt that Cyas inherited Lopt minor blood? The only cases where blood wasn't passed down is for Julius, Julia and Seliph where they're receiving Holy Blood from three different sources. Every other possible combination in the series default and otherwise always passes down minor blood. Wait, no Scopio doesn't have any blood but I'm pretty convinced that's an oversight much like Hilda randomly having Dain Holy Blood for no explicit reason at the same point. And while four exceptions to seem like quite a lot, three of them are special cases and the overwhelming number of examples that suggest it puts little doubt in my mind that Cyas has minor lopt blood. Furthermore I'm pretty sure in universe there's no way to actually detect minor blood in someone. References are made to marks on the body but they always refer to Major Holy Blood users.

Ishtar and Ishtor don't have their mother's fala blood either.

Edited November 5, 2016 by Sartek

[Jotari]

Ishtar and Ishtor don't have their mother's fala blood either.

Oh really? Huh. I guess they did that to prevent Ishtar and Julius' hypothetical kids having Major Fala over Major Lopt. Course it also makes me suspect Hilda's minor Fala is meant to be a mistake considering she also randomly gets a Dain Blood transfusion in her second appearances.

[Acacia Sgt]

No, I think her having Minor Fala is genuine. She does boasts about being related to the Royal Family thanks to the Fala Bloodline.

At this point, I think we're not really gonna get any conrete answers from what the game shows us.

[Tetragrammaton]

Oh really? Huh. I guess they did that to prevent Ishtar and Julius' hypothetical kids having Major Fala over Major Lopt. Course it also makes me suspect Hilda's minor Fala is meant to be a mistake considering she also randomly gets a Dain Blood transfusion in her second appearances.

For your information.

http://serenesforest.net/genealogy-of-the-holy-war/general/prototype-information/

Hilda had major Fala blood and wielded Falaflame in the final chapter. Maybe the major Dain blood glitch arose because of this change. Also, the Treasure book suggests that Alvis had one elder and another younger sibling, both deceased – perhaps the elder one was originally Hilda?

[Jotari]

No, I think her having Minor Fala is genuine. She does boasts about being related to the Royal Family thanks to the Fala Bloodline.

At this point, I think we're not really gonna get any conrete answers from what the game shows us.

She also does rock the signature red hairdo too. In light of the more exceptions than I thought I'm willing to admit there is a high likelihood Cyas doesn't in fact have Lopt Blood even though it managed to persists through what must be a dozen generations in the intervening two hundred years since Maria split off from Galle's family (maybe having two separate blood lines interfere with the process? And Scopio, Daccar and Maois are secretly illegitimate sons). In light of that I'd actually suggest the Family Tree on this site be updated since it displays Cyas with minor lot. Or at least including a note saying it's never confirmed one way or the other (it should also probably be updated to reflect the now localised names, much as I dislike Arvis as a thing).

http://serenesforest.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/jugdral_family_tree.jpg

Edited November 5, 2016 by Jotari

[Rinehart]

Yet it's Julian who wisely suggest they outright kill Juila and Manfroywho's all "Nah, it'd be super humiliating to brainwash her. No way this can backfire." It's like their personalities just swapped for that one plot point.

That's the one thing that people often point out as being inconsistent in Manfloy's personality. Still, it can be explained, albeit not in a most satisfying way.

Julius, as a vessel of Loptyr, knows full-well the threat that Narga (a Divine Dragon) poses. Since Earth Dragons were superior to regular dragons, Julius/Loptyr viewed the other Holy Bloods with relative contempt. This is consistent with his personality.

Manfloy, giddy with the thought of impending victory after all his years of scheming, makes a crucial slip-up as he over-plans things by sending a brainwashed Julia out to battle instead of simply executing her. Possibly Manfloy thought that it would be a great moral and psychological blow for Celice to be forced to kill his sister; however, Manfloy did not consider the possibility that they would target him to get rid of the curse.

No doubt this was a big mistake on Manfloy's part, but throughout the rest of the Jugdral series Manfloy has shown himself to be an extremely cunning and intelligent individual. That he would want to kill Saias to remove a potential threat to the Empire fits in with his actions and personality.

[Acacia Sgt]

I suppose Manfloy could have that as a favor to his slip-up.

Considering the map, you kinda do have to travel through Barhara's vicinity to even reach Velthomer, at least when coming from Freege as it has to be done in the chapter. And that means fighting through the Weissen Ritter and the Dreadlords. Manfloy likely thought that with Julia relentlessly attacking (and Seliph not wanting to kill her) and Velthomer being out of the way, he didn't had to worry much. Not to mention, even if they do slip through, going to Velthomer means showing their backs to whoever is still near Barhara (and Julius has a Meteor tome as well).

Realisticly, a small force would have to detach itself from the battle between the Liberation Army and the WeissenRitter/Dreadlords/Julius, make haste to Velthomer, kill Manfloy, and head back for Julia to come to her senses, as it does not happen automatically with Manfloy's death. Then, have Julia go back to Velthomer to unlock Narga (on the other hand, since she seems to just go after Seliph, if I remember correctly, then if he figures this he can exploit it by going to Velthomer himself and luring her to save time), and then head back to Barhara. All this with the threat of something going wrong. So yeah, this could be reason enough for Manfloy to feel confident.

Edited November 5, 2016 by Acacia Sgt

[Rinehart]

On top of that, Manfloy did not know that Alvis gave Julia the key to the Book of Narga and that Levin knew its location. Possibly Manfloy himself did not know where it was kept, and seeing that Julia did not have it on her, he considered her harmless.

Also, as it turns out, Celice is capable of defeating Julius on his own, albeit it would be slower and require support (healer, Aless, etc).

Not killing Julia was still a bad move on Manfloy's part, but not as ridiculous as many people suggest.

EDIT: If the game designers simply wanted to give the player an easy way to defeat Julius, they could have just had Julia not get kidnapped in the first place. I don't think that's the reason why Manfloy released her. As Kaga himself stated in an interview, one of the themes of FE4 is "how much peoples’ mistakes changed the world". You could argue that Sigurd, Alvis, Cuan, Trabant, Manfloy, and others all fit into this theme.

Edited November 5, 2016 by Rinehart