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Could the blood pact actually work or be legal?(spoilers)


Dragoncat
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I just read an interesting thing where what looked like a lawyer went on twitter and explained why the plot of The Little Mermaid, where Ariel signs a contract with Ursula, has legal holes that Ariel could exploit and not have to give up her voice or soul. It got me wondering about the blood pact in RD. One of the points was that Triton, being king of the sea, could easily veto the contract, and I know that the Apostle has authority over the senators, so couldn't she do that? I know the current Apostle probably wasn't alive when the pact was made, at least not the first one with Kilvas. And I'm aware of the shenanigans with her not being the "true Apostle" because she can't hear the voice of Ashera. But she is still an authority figure and the goddesses probably have little interest/involvement in mortal law. There's also the issue of her being a minor I guess, but in that case her direct advisors(Sigrun and Tanith)could probably have enough clout.

I don't remember if Sanaki knew about the pact or not. The senators could've been hiding it from her. Does anyone with more knowledge on the legal system know if she could've vetoed it if she knew about it? Discuss!

Edited by Dragoncat
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Don't know if she did knew (at least during Part 3), but either way, she actually did, at least with Kilvas's Pact.

Part 3 Endgame has her ordering Naesala around. Since her Empress title is genuine, despite not being the Apostle, she still outranks the Senators. That said, the Japanese script in 4-E-1 mentions that nothing can be done about nullifying that pact. At least for the time being.

The thing about loopholes may have happened, and thus Lekain wrote the Daein pact in a way that not even Sanaki could overturn if she knew. But well, that's just my guess. I mean, when it comes down to it, these contracts have magical properties, so who says authority ranks always come to be unless the contracts say they do?

The thing about Kilvas's Pact is that it was written between Kilvas and Begnion. We don't really know full details about Daein's, so Lekain could've written it so the Senators have the final saying on their side of the contract for all we know.

Edited by Acacia Sgt
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Don't know if she did knew (at least during Part 3), but either way, she actually did, at least with Kilvas's Pact.

Part 3 Endgame has her ordering Naesala around. Since her Empress title is genuine, despite not being the Apostle, she still outranks the Senators. That said, the Japanese script in 4-E-1 mentions that nothing can be done about nullifying that pact. At least for the time being.

The thing about loopholes may have happened, and thus Lekain wrote the Daein pact in a way that not even Sanaki could overturn if she knew. But well, that's just my guess. I mean, when it comes down to it, these contracts have magical properties, so who says authority ranks always come to be unless the contracts say they do?

The thing about Kilvas's Pact is that it was written between Kilvas and Begnion. We don't really know full details about Daein's, so Lekain could've written it so the Senators have the final saying on their side of the contract for all we know.

This basically, but I would also like to add that Sanaki is Micaiah's little sister as proven by their end game conversation where Sanaki calls her sister tries to give Micky the Begnion throne and expresses wanting to get to know her sister as her sister. Also while it is stated that because Sanaki is the younger child and did not get the powers Micky did it is never stated by anyone that she is not the grand daughter of the former Apostle. Of course I always felt like they should have told how Micky ended up in Daein and why she was taken there.

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The thing about loopholes may have happened, and thus Lekain wrote the Daein pact in a way that not even Sanaki could overturn if she knew. But well, that's just my guess. I mean, when it comes down to it, these contracts have magical properties, so who says authority ranks always come to be unless the contracts say they do?

The contract in The Little Mermaid is also magical. Lemme find the original post:

Capture.png

While Lekain would definitely do that, if the law works like ours or similar, there could still be a way. Idk.

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I suppose that's the big difference. IF it works like ours. The legal structure of Tellius as a whole does not have to adhere to Earth's, which in itself already varies depending on where.

Edited by Acacia Sgt
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I don't think so as I fully expect that such a pact, being magical in nature, could not be simply nullified by Sanaki saying it's so, even if the entire world voted it should be nullified. Probably the only thing that could would be either a very powerful mage forcefully breaking it or the goddess herself. Don't think of it like a legal contract but a 'pact' more in name than legal terms.

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Speaking of "the goddess herself", does it say anywhere how breaking the terms of the pact causes a plague? It sounds like tapping into the dark god/Yune or something of that nature. Is it automatic, or does Lekain have to find out and cast a spell?

If it's the former, I think everybody saying "it's magical, Sanaki can't do anything" is the case, if the latter, no, because then there wouldn't be magic involved until then.

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I think activating the "plague" has to be done deliberately by the pact holder, but the plague itself shows up magically by the pact itself. Most likely whatever makes the pacts themselves work is what also causes them to invoke such things.

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I would try to look at it from a different angle.

IIRC it was Sothe who said that maybe if they'd flee the country, the pact would not count for them. I bet the pact would state that the plague takes lives of Daein citizens. If there are any loopholes, it would be in that part of the pact. Renaming the country for instance could nullify the contract. (Though then again, killing the person who signed the contract should've worked too, which is the only issue I truly have with the blood pact...)

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Yeah, that seems like a last minute "let's make Pelleas only available after the first playthrough, but how?" kind of thing. If destroying the document works, by rights it should work if the person who signed it is dead. The game says those are the two requirements for having it nullified. If that was really so, then Naesala wouldn't just be able to kill Lekain and shred the paper, he'd have to die too.

I wish such a long game wouldn't have second playthrough + only characters in the first place. Or at least have another dark magic user that isn't.

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I would try to look at it from a different angle.

IIRC it was Sothe who said that maybe if they'd flee the country, the pact would not count for them. I bet the pact would state that the plague takes lives of Daein citizens. If there are any loopholes, it would be in that part of the pact. Renaming the country for instance could nullify the contract. (Though then again, killing the person who signed the contract should've worked too, which is the only issue I truly have with the blood pact...)

I suppose that could work. Unless Lekain was the kind of guy to make a clause that makes such an action irrelevant. After all, the wording of a document is important. If it had something like, "The citizens that, at the time of this document being signed, were considered citizens of X country, regardless of X's current status" would void that option. Then again, this is probably too convulated... but who knows...

This could also be why the death of Pelleas didn't work. Considering the mark of the pact jumped to Micaiah, who had become Daen's leader with Pelleas's death, means the pact was worded with that possiblity in mind.

Yeah, that seems like a last minute "let's make Pelleas only available after the first playthrough, but how?" kind of thing. If destroying the document works, by rights it should work if the person who signed it is dead. The game says those are the two requirements for having it nullified. If that was really so, then Naesala wouldn't just be able to kill Lekain and shred the paper, he'd have to die too.

I wish such a long game wouldn't have second playthrough + only characters in the first place. Or at least have another dark magic user that isn't.

Well, Naesala kinda didn't. In fact, when you consider that it was his predecedor who signed that particular pact, the fact it's still in effect despite said predecedor having commited suicide, it kinda does sound like the whole "death of the signer" information is wrong. Or perhaps a localization blunder? The English script does deviate from the Japanese one at times.

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Because it's quite likely the pact was made with the position in mind, not the individual. If the documents states "King/Ruler/etc. of Kilvas" without mentioning a person in specific, then the document applies as long as the position exists, and/or Kilvas exists. Thus, Naesala inherits the pact.

Edited by Acacia Sgt
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Well, magic or not, we're still talking about a legal document. The document may work on magic, but the words of the document dictate the terms of when, where, and how the magic can act out.

Hence why Pelleas's death won't make Daein's Blood Pact void, but Lekain's can. The Daein side is bound to the position for one party (ruler of Daein), but to a single individual in the other side (Lekain himself).

Edited by Acacia Sgt
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After all, the wording of a document is important. If it had something like, "The citizens that, at the time of this document being signed, were considered citizens of X country, regardless of X's current status" would void that option. Then again, this is probably too convulated... but who knows...

That's hands down the most logical explanation of that I've ever heard; the others open up a barrel of stupid flaws. It's not actually all that convoluted compared to a lot of IRL contracts, so definitely a possibility. On thing this does raise, though, is how citizenship is tracked. Does each country issue and record citizenship? Definitely not out of question, since a lot of ancient societies did, but something interesting logistically speaking IMO.

Only thing that sort of nixes that theory, though even it's never confirmed, is, IIRC, the implication that Zihark and Jill are safe from it if they join the GMs.

Legally speaking, you could probably argue that Pelleas was coerced into signing, not fully fit to sign, or malpractice on Izuka's part if nothing else. I'm not a lawyer by any means and we don't know the specifics of the contract, but Pelleas is kind of an idiot, Izuka clearly didn't have his best interests in mind, and cases with less ground to stand on have been brought aplenty, granted to varying degrees of success.

Edited by bottlegnomes
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You know these games are based on true events, right?

Man, I completely forgot about that! Thank you for making this very constructive and not at all superfluous contribution.

Legally speaking, you could probably argue that Pelleas was coerced into signing, not fully fit to sign, or malpractice on Izuka's part if nothing else. I'm not a lawyer by any means and we don't know the specifics of the contract, but Pelleas is kind of an idiot, Izuka clearly didn't have his best interests in mind, and cases with less ground to stand on have been brought aplenty, granted to varying degrees of success.

I also don't know if any country on earth would allow its ruler to directly agree to the death of all of his subjects being the penalty for breaking a contract.

But honestly, the more interesting question is how the penalty for breaking the contract is triggered. The way it's presented in the game, it seems like Lekain does have the power to choose whether or not to start and stop the murdering when Daein or Kilvas don't fulfill their part of the contract. But it also seems as if Sanaki can overrule that, unless I misremember why exactly Naesala is able to side with her?

To me, it's completely unclear how the magic of the blood contract works. It's such a hugely powerful spell that defines a good part of the plot in Pt.3 (and retroactively even PoR), but we don't know where its power comes from, when exactly its power can be activated (it seems like 'as soon as Lekain doesn't agree with something you do' and that's kinda disappointing from a story perspective) and who is able to enable/disable it out of his own free will.

And I guess we also don't know if the blood contract agrees with any national or international law systems in Tellius. But then again, we don't know much about those law systems either way, except maybe that the Empress of Begnion doesn't necessarily have to be the Apostle to be the legitimate ruler. ;)

Hence why Pelleas's death won't make Daein's Blood Pact void, but Lekain's can. The Daein side is bound to the position for one party (ruler of Daein), but to a single individual in the other side (Lekain himself).

I wonder... Would killing Sanaki have the same effect? As I said, she seems to have the power to (not) activate the blood contract with Kilvas, so maybe the game passed the opportunity for another ethical choice here. ;)

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I wonder... Would killing Sanaki have the same effect? As I said, she seems to have the power to (not) activate the blood contract with Kilvas, so maybe the game passed the opportunity for another ethical choice here. ;)

I wouldn't know if Sanaki would be enough. From the way Kilvas's Pact was made, it sound like it would need either Begnion or Kilvas to cease to exist so that one side is "killed off", so to speak. Then again, after the end of game the latter kinda did, since the bird tribes all went back to Serenes and established a new nation, so...

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