The rise of right populism

[Phoenix Wright]

If you read the post I linked, you'll see exactly what she means.

my fav part of that is when i called life a bigot and everyone lashed out at me, then a few pages later he admitted to being "bigoted in [that] area."

Edited November 14, 2016 by Phoenix Wright

[Yojinbo]

my fav part of that is when i called life a bigot and everyone lashed out at me, then a few pages later he admits to being "bigoted in [that] area."

That's such a classic scenario though - the ones who complain about PC culture the loudest are the first to call the waaaaaaaaaambulance when you give them a taste of their own medicine.

Which seems to be a typical trait of all the so-called right populist parties ...

[UNLEASH IT]

my fav part of that is when i called life a bigot and everyone lashed out at me, then a few pages later he admits to being "bigoted in [that] area."

In a way, your reaction, though justified, exacerbates the feeling of hostility in Life which in turn exacerbates your own hostility. This strange loop causes tempers and feelings of vitriol to flare so much between both sides that eventually they end up basically telling each other to go fuck themselves and close off discussion, without having gained anything. It's something that I've seen happen many times, on here, on other internet sites and in real life.

[Sidereal Wraith]

Some interesting food for thought.

Edited November 14, 2016 by Wraith

[Res]

So I actually listened to that video. The first 3/4 is mainly a rehash of everything UNLEASH IT has been saying and yes, is a valid criticism of the Democratic Party.

The last quarter bothers me. So he starts by explaining how in the 70 hr a week, hospital drudgery job he had in his youth, he and his coworkers were working too hard to care much about social issues. That everyone was united by their work and no one cared who or what each other were. That they were all treated with a common decency and respect. Then he criticizes people for wishing to be called by the correct pronoun or whatever other basic accommodations they ask for. Um, that's a part of treating people with 'decency and respect'. My trans friends don't struggle to find work because they're too lazy to accept the drudge work offered to them. They struggle to find work because they get screwed at the hiring process or in the first few weeks of work by people who do actually care about who they are. My husband used to work overnights in a printing press (about as blue-collar as you can get for a city job) and he said the environment was rife with racism. So no, I can't be sure the narrator of that video actually does treat everyone with common decency and respect (although he no doubt believes he does).

[Lord Raven]

In a way, your reaction, though justified, exacerbates the feeling of hostility in Life which in turn exacerbates your own hostility. This strange loop causes tempers and feelings of vitriol to flare so much between both sides that eventually they end up basically telling each other to go fuck themselves and close off discussion, without having gained anything. It's something that I've seen happen many times, on here, on other internet sites and in real life.

We are quite aware. The difference is dealing with someone whose initial post on the matter was completely and unrepentantly disrespectful and vitriolic and someone who is legitimately misinformed. As it stands, he continues to preach this despite little response to the latest thing I posted on the matter. If he were misinformed that would be one thing, but it's being misinformed, not willing to be informed, and being hateful at the same time.

In general even if you try to take his arguments seriously there is very little incentive to do so because of the large probability he will ignore or strawman everything you say. For the most part the conservative people on this forum are fine but understand why some people are dealt with in a different way than others. Nobody really liked the smug way certain other people celebrated Obama's victory in 2012, even the people who voted Obama. Why should we tolerate Life's shit? Because he has a different opinion it makes it okay to try to listen to someone who actively ignores half of what you say?

I do agree that we have missed a large degree of potential understanding with people whose views shift solely to the right. There is a lot of debate that can happen, that is not happening, because of condescension towards a rural lifestyle, yet at the same time part of the reason why people resort to insults immediately is because of shit like this. How do you actually someone who you've tried to engage in a debate and still ignores the stuff you say? You can honestly not say that nobody has tried on this forum before resorting to the insults - especially someone who is like one step away from calling many people on here "libtards."

tl;dr there are certain people (like Life, CPP, and Cykes-Sono) that effectively refuse to participate in any sort of proper discussion and this is a bad example from both sides. I'm pretty sure people like Phoenix and Res wouldn't be the first to jump to bigot branding if they encountered a different situation (or in Phoenix's case, if it were literally anyone but Life).

Edited November 14, 2016 by Lord Raven

[Phoenix Wright]

spoilering for not relevant to topic cause i actually like this one.

In a way, your reaction, though justified, exacerbates the feeling of hostility in Life which in turn exacerbates your own hostility. This strange loop causes tempers and feelings of vitriol to flare so much between both sides that eventually they end up basically telling each other to go fuck themselves and close off discussion, without having gained anything. It's something that I've seen happen many times, on here, on other internet sites and in real life.

i'm not hostile for the sake of being hostile. if someone is a bigot, that means for whatever reason they will not listen to your argument, whatever it is. that's the practical definition of a bigot. so when he cries, "you're just not listening to my arguments," it is obvious bullshit. it is proof that i was listening to him earnestly and completely and was eventually fed up with him not listening to me. humans only have so much patience.

like i said to eclipse, everyone thinks oneself to be the open-minded one in a discussion when obviously that is not the case. i have changed my opinions on topics more than anyone else in this entire forum, i am almost certain of it (maybe rapier's got me beat, he always shows up to learn), but i still always get accused of being "close-minded" just because i argue confidently. it is silly.

on the original topic, what does a "successful" trump presidency look like? he is gearing the united states towards not so happy times if his other cabinet choices are as bad as his chief of staff and chief strategist. if we cut taxes on the rich, rid the united states of a huge portion of a --let's face facts-- cheap, disadvantaged workforce, bring expensive factories back into the united states, make immigration too difficult, etc., where can we go but down?

[eclipse]

I'll outline my thought process in a spoiler, because it's a bit long-winded.

So, the crux of this issue is that gender is a sensitive topic, because there's a nonzero number of people on this forum who this applies to (including people that don't post in here, and people who I've warned away from this subforum). In other words, I need to weigh the benefits of having that discussion against the possible consequences of having said topic spiral out of control, because it affects a lot more people than the regulars in here. I could attempt a compromise, and be extremely strict about the warnings that I give out - in other words, if I think you're arguing from a stance of hate, I warn you - regardless of what you're arguing. However, this would give me grounds for warning just about everyone posting in that topic (including being an ass to whoever you're arguing against, with my word being final), and that's kind of lame, IMO. If I feel that I'd hand out warns like candy, then that's a sign that the community isn't ready for a discussion like that yet. It isn't fair to the people who I think would be able to conduct themselves in such a discussion, but I think that the potential for harm is too high. If this community matures to the point where I think discussion will be worthwhile (for example, actually respecting another person and their opinion, no matter how batshit it may seem to you), then I will revisit this.

So the tl;dr is that I don't think that this community can discuss a topic like gender yet. If you really want to swap viewpoints or something, feel free to PM each other. You can include multiple people within each PM (I think the limit is yourself and four others). Anyone else that brings up gender/transgender/anything else that isn't populism will be warned.