Thracia 776, what's necessary and what's not?

[Jotari]

I've only played Thracia once but in that single play through I think it became one of my favourite games in the series in terms of gameplay. I like the level of difficulty it throws at you and some of the features first introduced in that game are actually at their best (like a Growth Rate for Con). It also has fantastic unit diversity and focus on things outside of tanking the entire game on enemy phase. The low stat inflation also feels really nice compared to the modern games. That being said, Thracia does have a reputation for having a lot of bullshit and it isn't entirely unfounded. However, some of the most reviled mechanics do play heavily into the game's design. Like a minimum unit deployment and being unable to reposition your units. Chapter 19 simply wouldn't have worked without those mechanics and the subsequent chapters where your army is split up actually feels like your under pressure, rather than just repositioning them at will for the most effective outcome.

So I just want to get a feel for what other people's opinions are on the less well received aspects of Thracia's gameplay. As a preliminary list I would probably change

*Fog of Darkness so you can see the map like modern games.

*I'd actually be fine with the warping trap tiles if there was a better indicator of where they are and you were able to escape without relying on rescue/warp. Right now it's just cheap as hell -_-

*As much as I praised the inability to position your units in the opening paragraph, it is kind of archaic and I think some other creative things could be used to achieve the same effect. Like maybe a Gaiden Chapter where you play Dorias' failed invasion and the units you field in that chapter are the ones retreating in Chapter 19.

*I never found the Pursuit Critical Coefficient that interesting. It's something based on a value hidden from the player which by principal I generally don't like. But even with that aside it kind of seems too easy to abuse. Maybe it could work as some kind of skill but in its vanilla form it doesn't really entice me.

*On the subject of critical, modernise it to triple damage instead of base attack.

*Doesn't actually make a huge difference gameplay wise but it does kind of bother me for irrational reasons that lance users are so hard to use in doors. So I'd give at least some of them a lance rank when unmounted. Either that or introduce a soldier unit into the roster.

*Infinite status effects. I would definitely change that. Sleep and Berserk are just too OP if they last forever without a restore stave, for both you and the enemy, which is sort of Thracia's design overall but in this case I just find it irritating. Especially in regards to poison where I often feel it isn't worth curing with a precious restore stave use due to modern Fire Emblem conditioning me to view it as useless.

*Staves having a miss chance. That can so monumentally fuck over the player in a normal Fire Emblem game but in one where staves are the primary weapon of war fare it's bloody insane. I have no idea why they made that a thing.

Anyway that's just my thoughts on the matter for the moment. I'd like to hear some other people's opinions.

Edited November 27, 2016 by Jotari

[MCProductions]

FE5 needs only to change at least two things. One is how Escape is handled as that leads to much unneeded bullshit. They can keep the same idea by using Vestaria Saga's Escape criteria, the map doesn't end until every unit of the player's leaves the map.

Next, one of two things need to be removed just so the game cannot become literally unwinnable if the player is simply unaware of certain mechanics. Either remove fatigue or minimum deployment, having both, especially with Thracia's tendency to just not tell the player anything, is a recipe for disaster.

[Jotari]

FE5 needs only to change at least two things. One is how Escape is handled as that leads to much unneeded bullshit. They can keep the same idea by using Vestaria Saga's Escape criteria, the map doesn't end until every unit of the player's leaves the map.

Next, one of two things need to be removed just so the game cannot become literally unwinnable if the player is simply unaware of certain mechanics. Either remove fatigue or minimum deployment, having both, especially with Thracia's tendency to just not tell the player anything, is a recipe for disaster.

Can thieves open doors in Thracia? I thought I heard somewhere that the chapter before Murder Hollace is unwinnible if you didn't pick up enough door keys before hand, but maybe it was a statement referring to that if both your thieves were killed/unrecruited.

[MCProductions]

Can thieves open doors in Thracia? I thought I heard somewhere that the chapter before Murder Hollace is unwinnible if you didn't pick up enough door keys before hand, but maybe it was a statement referring to that if both your thieves were killed/unrecruited.

So long as a theif has a lockpick or key, they can open things yeah. tho if both of your theives die and you don't have enough door keys, your fucked.

[Darros]

Same idea if they're both fatigued, right?

[Jotari]

So long as a theif has a lockpick or key, they can open things yeah. tho if both of your theives die and you don't have enough door keys, your fucked.

Ah yes. Lock picks were a thing in that game. Though if I recall correctly getting them off enemies is rare. You're basically limited to the ones that come with your thieves.

Same idea if they're both fatigued, right?

That would be hilariously annoying. Though in fairness why would you be fielding both your thieves at the same time and using them to such an extent that they would get fatigued?

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

necessary

• everyone has to escape
• fatigue (but it must be implemented in a different way. There should be an experience limit for each unit depending on their level. A lower leveled unit must have a higher limit than a higher leveled unit not to disadvantage units who join with low level and need much training.)
• capturing
• thief stave

not necessary

• stupid traps in 24x
• requirement of door keys / lockpicks or enough warp / rewarp staves to beat the last map
• removal of guaranteed hit / miss
• status affects last the entire chapter
• generic caps

Edited November 27, 2016 by Ayama Wirdo

[Jotari]

necessary

• everyone has to escape
• fatigue (but it must be implemented in a different way. There should be an experience limit for each unit depending on their level. A lower leveled unit must have a higher limit than a higher leveled unit not to disadvantage units who join with low level and need much training.)
• capturing
• thief stave

not necessary

• stupid traps in 24x
• requirement of door keys / lockpicks or enough warp / rewarp staves to beat the last map
• removal of guaranteed hit / miss
• status affects last the entire chapter
• generic caps

The Dark Mages in the final map all have a door key, so technically you only need either one key or two warp/rewarp staves to beat the entire map. And even on then I think some of the reinforcements that appear late in the map come equipped with rewarp staves for you to swipe. Still though, overall, it's quite a bad game design if any chapter does not provide enough keys the complete its mandatory sections. Also in regards too fatigue, I'd personally just make it a stat like Con where each unit comes with their own personal cap that has a very small growth rate. That would be a very handy way to balance certain units.

Also I've just recalled another thing that is ridiculous and needs to go. Staves having a miss chance. That can so monumentally fuck over the player in a normal Fire Emblem game but in one where staves are the primary weapon of war fare it's bloody insane. I have no idea why they made that a thing.

[Refa]

Ah yes. Lock picks were a thing in that game. Though if I recall correctly getting them off enemies is rare. You're basically limited to the ones that come with your thieves.

It's pretty easy to get them, actually. I had enough that I sold them to stop clogging up my inventory, anyways.

So long as a theif has a lockpick or key, they can open things yeah. tho if both of your theives die and you don't have enough door keys, your fucked.

You can capture all of the armor knights in that chapter and steal their Door Keys. I don't think there's enough to get Fred out of there but there are enough to get to the throne room.

Edited November 27, 2016 by Refa

[X-Naut]

Necessary:

-Escape is a great feature and so is the price of YOLO strats.

-Minimum deployment limits should be the gold standard in all Fire Emblems.

-The game would be a lot less fun if capturing didn't exist.

-Staves being the tactical nukes of this game. The only thing missing from it is a range penalty segment of the staff accuracy formula.

-On that note, having multiple high-level staves. It's fun to have more than one Warp and the incentives to use them!

Unnecessary:

-I'm pretty sure the 99% ceiling is purely to facilitate scripted dodges, but outside of that it's nothing but frustrating. The 1% floor is a bit more understandable with how easy it is to get some enemies down there.

-The obscene avoid and defense bonuses of terrains. :why:

-I actually like the change of critical hits to being double attack, but with how easy it is to set up critical hits in this game double damage seems too high. I would prefer it being x1.5 instead.

-Statuses lasting forever isn't really necessary when you have plenty of other anti-turtling options you could enhance. The only one I'd excuse is Silence so that it has something over Sleep.

-GREAT SHIELD. This is the worst skill in the series.

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

-The obscene avoid and defense bonuses of terrains. :why:

I totally forgot to add sth. for unnecessary:

+ 10 defense throne boost is ridiculous

Most bosses are made to get killed by Grafcalibur.

The Dark Mages in the final map all have a door key, so technically you only need either one key or two warp/rewarp staves to beat the entire map. And even on then I think some of the reinforcements that appear late in the map come equipped with rewarp staves for you to swipe.

This requires to capture them which is effortful... and the chance to do it (if they haven't equipped fenrir) is pretty low.

Wasting warp and rewarp just to steal it is really the last thing you want to do.

Edited November 27, 2016 by Ayama Wirdo

[The Draco Knight]

The Dark Mages in the final map all have a door key, so technically you only need either one key or two warp/rewarp staves to beat the entire map. And even on then I think some of the reinforcements that appear late in the map come equipped with rewarp staves for you to swipe. Still though, overall, it's quite a bad game design if any chapter does not provide enough keys the complete its mandatory sections. Also in regards too fatigue, I'd personally just make it a stat like Con where each unit comes with their own personal cap that has a very small growth rate. That would be a very handy way to balance certain units.

Also I've just recalled another thing that is ridiculous and needs to go. Staves having a miss chance. That can so monumentally fuck over the player in a normal Fire Emblem game but in one where staves are the primary weapon of war fare it's bloody insane. I have no idea why they made that a thing.

But in that way, the map becomes much more difficult, to the point of being quite frustrating.

And I say this, because the only way I had t beat the game were just Pahn with a lock pick and some mages with a Rewarp/Warp Staff. Really, you have no idea how many times i had to reset in order to complete it because of not having the necessary dorr keys. Still my second favorite game in the series tough.

Anyway, my only real problem with Thracia is the limit of the hit rate because, seriously, who tought of the idea to have the lowest Hit rate to be 1 and the maximum to be 99?

But idk, I'm probalby making it a bigger problem than It actually is.

[dondon151]

the door key problem can be fixed by the game having a feature where enemies can drop items upon defeat

it's a series staple mechanic now but FE5 and FE6 didn't have that for some reason

[Jotari]

I totally forgot to add sth. for unnecessary:

+ 10 defense throne boost is ridiculous

Most bosses are made to get killed by Grafcalibur.

This requires to capture them which is effortful... and the chance to do it (if they haven't equipped fenrir) is pretty low.

Wasting warp and rewarp just to steal it is really the last thing you want to do.

But in that way, the map becomes much more difficult, to the point of being quite frustrating.

And I say this, because the only way I had t beat the game were just Pahn with a lock pick and some mages with a Rewarp/Warp Staff. Really, you have no idea how many times i had to reset in order to complete it because of not having the necessary dorr keys. Still my second favorite game in the series tough.

Anyway, my only real problem with Thracia is the limit of the hit rate because, seriously, who tought of the idea to have the lowest Hit rate to be 1 and the maximum to be 99?

But idk, I'm probalby making it a bigger problem than It actually is.

Capturing them isn't all that hard when you have the likes of Galzus and Ced in your party. You could also use a thief to steal the keys without capturing. Course I'm not saying that's in anyway an efficient method of playing the map. I think the player is expected to use warp and rescue staves for the most part and I don't think expecting the player o have a fair few of them at this point is unreasonable so I can't criticize the map too much. Still though, if you do go in without any staves or keys it is impossible (unless those late turn reinforcements bring something you can use like I mentioned before. Not too sure about that. I was personally terrified of those reinforcement since some of them were Hero's with a freeze glitch in the translation I was using). My personal design would have been to give all those berserkers in the center door keys

[Jave]

Can thieves open doors in Thracia? I thought I heard somewhere that the chapter before Murder Hollace is unwinnible if you didn't pick up enough door keys before hand, but maybe it was a statement referring to that if both your thieves were killed/unrecruited.

It's not unwinnable. The boss has a Door Key, and if you wait 30 turns, he will open the door to the boss room himself and attempt to flee the map.

[Jotari]

It's not unwinnable. The boss has a Door Key, and if you wait 30 turns, he will open the door to the boss room himself and attempt to flee the map.

Haha. I love that. Completely in character for Kempf.

[Jave]

Haha. I love that. Completely in character for Kempf.

Wait, scratch that. I misread the post and thought you were speaking of the Murder Hollace map, not the chapter before.

The Kempf map is a huge pain without thieves, but there are four knights with Door Keys, so it technically is winnable if you manage to capture all of them and take their loot. The real problem is keeping Fred alive, since without extra keys and thieves you can't open the doors to the south and let him escape, so you have to rely on him dodging. It's a good idea to position Karin close to one of the Ballista spawn points beforehand so she can kill it with a Javelin.

[Valkama]

I think one way to fix the door key problem would be to give Leif the ability to pick locks after chapter 4. You could have Lara hand Leif an unbreakable and unstealable Leif only lockpick or something. Sorta like the fire emblem.

[Tetragrammaton]

Isn't Leif a Trickster?

[Jedi]

Isn't Leif a Trickster?

No, he's a lord. Like you know the majority of the other main characters of FE.

[The Draco Knight]

No, he's a lord. Like you know the majority of the other main characters of FE.

Well, to be fair, he is a Trickster in Awakening as a Spot pass unit.

[Aggro Incarnate]

The only really bad mechanics in Thracia 776 IMO are movement stars and healing staves missing. Other than that I do wish that the game would make its mechanics clearer, but many of them really define the game, and not in a bad way...

[Jotari]

The only really bad mechanics in Thracia 776 IMO are movement stars and healing staves missing. Other than that I do wish that the game would make its mechanics clearer, but many of them really define the game, and not in a bad way...

What issue do you have with movement stars? They can only be a boon to the player and unlike a lot of beneficial things in the series can't be abused at all (using conventional means anyway) due to their low probability.

Edited November 30, 2016 by Jotari

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

There's another issue which comes in mind: weapons don't break automatically when they're out of uses.

In a large enemy phase it can turn into a serious problem if a weapon is out of uses because "broken" weapons weigh a shit and lower your speed and evasion dramatically.

[CappnRob]

A lot of what was introduced in Thracia later became standards for the series, just fine tuned to be less hardball on the player (ie fog of war). TBH if we just brought these old mechanics up to modern standards Thracia would still be a challenging but far more tolerable game. I haven't played this thing in bloody ages (only once, and way back when at that), so I can't recall anything too specific that hasn't already been said already lol.