Fire Emblem: Genealogy of the Holy War 2017 Tier List - Day 39: The support kids (Corple, Lene, Sharlow and Laylea)

[Excellen Browning]

I agree as well, but in the sense that I suspect some others overlook realities like in ch2 and 4, where you need a cavalry rush in the first half of the map. And that otherwise maps like ch3, 8, 9, 10 and endgame feature a crapton of just moving about that using footsies means a much longer downtime between the interesting bits.

[salinea]

15 hours ago, FionordeQuester said:

 So already, he's pretty, especially when you factor in Meteor Sword.

That's what she said!

 

 

(sorry couldn't help myself)

[FionordeQuester]

 

9 hours ago, Inference said:

Do I really need to preface an opinion with a disclaimer?

I'd...say it'd be a good idea whenever you say things like "you guys need to do more of X, and start doing more of Y".  Tone and intention are much harder to tell over the Internet, and we've already had some debates in this thread involving guys like me, Eleanor Hume, Valkama, and others.  So I, at the very least, am more sensitive to any possible insults to their way of ranking the characters.  

 

Does that sound reasonable?

 

 

[Valkama]

There is no reason for someone to claim whether they are an efficiency player or not. If someone presents a claim like "foot units should be rated lower because they have lower move" and you disagree with it then it is your job to come up with a logical counter argument rather than being fallacious and go after their play style.

[FionordeQuester]

1 hour ago, Valkama said:

There is no reason for someone to claim whether they are an efficiency player or not. If someone presents a claim like "foot units should be rated lower because they have lower move" and you disagree with it then it is your job to come up with a logical counter argument rather than being fallacious and go after their play style.

Indeed; that's why I never go after people's play styles.  The only reason I bring it up is because Inference asked if he "really had to put a disclaimer" for every time he criticized someone's way of playing.  He seemed to be expressing frustration over my response to him; that, to me, implied that he never wanted a counter-argument to start with.

Hence, I told him that it would be a good idea to put a disclaimer at the beginning of his posts if he doesn't feel like having a discussion about what he said.  Otherwise, yeah; my natural instinct is going to be to tell him exactly why I disagree with him.

Edited January 18, 2017 by FionordeQuester

[Yojinbo]

Mobility is an objectively quantifiable and measurable parameter, just as strength or magic are. There's no subjectivity to it.

In a scenario where an enemy unit is exactly 8 squares away from you, Alec will always trump Aira. Alec can attack and retreat at the same time or, for example, steal money via the Thief Sword. Aira can do nothing. If both units make optimal use of their movement it'll take no more than 4 turns for Alec to have a headstart over Aira that she can no longer catch up to unless you intentionally hold Alec back.

Now of course you can slow the rest of your party down to have her catch up. But you can also waste tons of turns to have Aideen spam Warp in Ch.1 over and over until she can promote, pick up Azel's Fire Tome and then proceed to solo the entire chapter with her. Totally doable.

[FionordeQuester]

14 minutes ago, Yojinbo said:

Mobility is an objectively quantifiable and measurable parameter, just as strength or magic are. There's no subjectivity to it.

In a scenario where an enemy unit is exactly 8 squares away from you, Alec will always trump Aira. Alec can attack and retreat at the same time or, for example, steal money via the Thief Sword. Aira can do nothing. If both units make optimal use of their movement it'll take no more than 4 turns for Alec to have a headstart over Aira that she can no longer catch up to unless you intentionally hold Alec back.

Now of course you can slow the rest of your party down to have her catch up. But you can also waste tons of turns to have Aideen spam Warp in Ch.1 over and over until she can promote, pick up Azel's Fire Tome and then proceed to solo the entire chapter with her. Totally doable.

And that's fine; I myself tend to rate foot units lower than mounts for this reason.  I'm just sensitive to any statements of "one HAS to do this" or "should" do that in this specific case.  It's a ratings thread involving many different people with many different criteria for how they're judging a unit; the results of the list aren't necessarily going to be what they would be if only one person were ranking the units.

[Valkama]

1 hour ago, FionordeQuester said:

Indeed; that's why I never go after people's play styles.  The only reason I bring it up is because Inference asked if he "really had to put a disclaimer" for every time he criticized someone's way of playing.  He seemed to be expressing frustration over my response to him; that, to me, implied that he never wanted a counter-argument to start with.

Hence, I told him that it would be a good idea to put a disclaimer at the beginning of his posts if he doesn't feel like having a discussion about what he said.  Otherwise, yeah; my natural instinct is going to be to tell him exactly why I disagree with him.

This exactly not what happened at all. Interface is claiming that they started a new run of FE4 and are having trouble using foot units and thinks foot units should receive a harsher score because of how disadvantaged they seem to be to them. You immediately assumed they were talking about "efficient play" and attacked their argument on that false premise. They weren't talking about how to play the game or anything like that and they shouldn't have to explain how they are playing because it had nothing to do with their argument in the slightest. Not every argument calling foot units bad is about "efficient play" but that is the conclusion you seem to have drawn. Every part of your argument was built on a false structure of their argument so in the end you essentially said nothing other than "I don't agree with you".

[FionordeQuester]

22 hours ago, Inference said:

I've fired up FE4 this week for my third playthrough to date, and the non-pony syndrome is even worse than I remember. :\ You guys need to be a bit harsher on the scores for footies; even Ced isn't getting an especially high rating from me at this point (and I realized how poor his movement was on only the second playthrough....).

That's what led me to believe that he was criticizing those who favored foot units more favorably.  But, maybe he was just joking?  If that's the case, then I am sorry  .

 

EDIT: And wait, when did I ever ask about how he played?  I don't recall ever asking him.

Edited January 18, 2017 by FionordeQuester

[Valkama]

Interface was making the argument that foot units are not that good in this game. What's so hard to understand about that? It's not a joke and it's not implying efficient play at all.

About you edit, Interface asked:

16 hours ago, Inference said:

Do I really need to preface an opinion with a disclaimer? I'm not an efficiency player at all...

And you responded with:

6 hours ago, FionordeQuester said:

I'd...say it'd be a good idea whenever you say things like "you guys need to do more of X, and start doing more of Y". 

To me this reads like you are recommending that users put a disclaimer about their playstyle.

[FionordeQuester]

26 minutes ago, Valkama said:

Interface was making the argument that foot units are not that good in this game. What's so hard to understand about that? It's not a joke and it's not implying efficient play at all.

About you edit, Interface asked:

And you responded with:

To me this reads like you are recommending that users put a disclaimer about their playstyle.

Ah, I get what you're saying.  Ok, so him saying that foot units were worse than horse units isn't the problem.  That's not what I took issue with.  It was him telling those who didn't share his opinion that they "needed to rate foot units lower".  It's the difference between telling someone "I disagree with you" and "your opinion is wrong".  One is a statement of fact, and the other is an attack on one's point of view.  The difference is subtle, but very powerful.

 

As for the disclaimer bit, I was more recommending that Inference say something like "In my opinion", or "maybe it's just me, but..." before making statements about how justified the rankings are.  That way, he's leaving room for the possibility that he could be incorrect.

 

It's a good way of avoiding conflict, is what I'm saying (not that all conflict is bad).  What he said was fine if he was cool with responding to counter-arguments; but it doesn't sound like he was.

Edited January 19, 2017 by FionordeQuester

[OliKad]

I think I'm due for doing another part now, am I? xD
In any case, our bro Shanan got a 7.06/10 after the 18 votes collcted by Excellen Brownen. Thanks again BTW! ^^

Now that the forest got his new green look, it's finally time to talk about the hero of Thracia 776 in his superior form, Leif! ^^

 

Class: Prince (Level 1)
Holy Blood: Minor Baldo, Minor Noba
Personal Skills: Continue, Critical

Class Skills: Pursuit (After promotion)
Stats:
32 HP (130%)
12 Strength (60%)
3 Magic (7%)
10 Skill (50%)
10 Speed (45%)
10 Defense (50%)
3 Resistance (10%)
8 Luck (25%)

My thoughts: Aaah, our famous Leafy-boy, or at least, that's how I like to call him. He starts off as a level one foot-unit, sure, but at least, he does have some perks that makes this fact less aggravating. First off, he's accompanied by a competent healer and a temporary Jeigan with him, which makes so that the defence of Lenster is suddenly a fantastic grinding opportunity for him, and well, he'll need this! Another good thing is that he joins with a A-Rank in swords, which makes him very proficient in the best weapon-type of the game. But, most importantly, as soon as he starts to grow, he'll improve quite a bit, thanks to his great, well-rounded growth rates. Sure, he'll be stuck with no Pursuit for quite a while, but he does have Continue and Critical to compensate, so he may get lucky with those skills to kill off enemies and clear the arena. HOWEVER, here's why Leif is regarded in such an high position: he promotes into the best class of the game, the Master Knight. He gains a horse, fantastic promotion gains, access to all weapon types barring dark and some light magic and the almighty Pursuit skill! Yup, the little boy finally became a man, and dare I say the best unit in the game without a legendary weapon! He becomes that good! :D

Sure, you'll still need to baby him at the start, but it's certainly not as bad as you think despite the lack of staves, because he does have some good opportunities to grow and become the god that he is at Endgame, so it's definitively worth it. I'll give him a 8.5/10 for all of these reasons. :)

[CappnRob]

Leif is basically Celice 2.0 but not QUITE as good - he lacks his cousin's titanic magic defense but compensates for it by having some of the most high-end well rounded growths possible as Balder and Nova blood basically covers all the basics. He starts out low level and a chapter later than Celice and without pursuit, but having Ethlyn pass down the pursuit ring is a good way to circumvent that. Even if you don't he DOES have continue and enough of a speed growth to make good use of it, plus the critical skill and enough skill growth to be poppin' heads too! If he inherits Ethlyn's light brand then he can attack from range out the gate as well and really that's the only sword he needs. One he reunites with your main army you can pop the elite ring on him and accelerate him to his promotion which is the always awesome MASTER KNIGHT. Where as Lachesis was just alright overall in G1 and her promotion was basically essential to her going from a back ranks support character to a front line essential, Leif just goes from great to freaking RIDICULOUS with his promotion. Mounted, pursuit, stupidly high stat gains for his already good stats, and access to every single weapon type in the game you can get. He's a fine contender for the Tornado tome as well as all your extra silver weapons you have noone else to drop onto. He's also needed to recruit his sister, Alteena, which brings the Gae Bolg back into your army's possession. I honestly dare say that promoted Leif is BETTER than Celice if not for the fact Celice does eventually get the Tyrfing and Leif is left holy weapon-less, but that's the very end of G2 all things considered. Still he's got a bit of a hill to climb to reach full potential and does come a whole chapter into the second generation, so I can't give him a totally perfect score... but a 9/10 is still fantastic :P

[Flee Fleet!]

Leif! An 9/10 with positive bias!

Leif is like Lachesis, but he isn't as weak as her, and he has better growths than her. The only thing he doesn't have unpromoted is the ability to use staves, which Lachesis had a C rank, and thus was easy to give her experience. However, like I just said, Leif has better growths, and mostly better bases than her too, so he has more of a chance to survive and kill. With his personal guard Finn, and loyal friend Nanna, he can easily steal kills and get healed during ch7. 

Leif also has an A rank in swords, so he can use much more swords, that could potentially be more useful to him than his Iron Sword. If Ethlyn kept the Light Brand of hers with her, she could pass it down to Leif. Therefore Leif has the advantage of 2 range attacks, and since the sword is magical, it's more easier for him to steal kills.

 

Besides, he promotes into the best class, the Master Knight, and now he can basically use everything except dark magic AND gets an A rank in staves. NEAT! 

 

He already has the skills Continue and Critical to help, and after promotion he gets the Pursuit skill.

[qwernst]

Leif needs more strategic caring compared to other Gen 2 units in my opinion due to his level, placing, and lack of pursuit at first, unless you gave Ethlyn the pursuit ring.
When promoted, he becomes a force of nature and his growths on average will cap Strength, Skill, Speed, and Defense. 8/10, because you have to work for the reward of promoted carnage.

[Excellen Browning]

Leaf wants to inherit the pursuit ring and grab his starting villages for the elite ring to promote asap. Once he promotes, he's a very good combat unit and A staves on a horse is a good utility and allows for rescue staff shenanigans. I give Leaf a 8/10

[Punished Dayni]

It's time for another Prince! Jeez, will there be more nobility in G2 than in G1?

Leaf is the son of Cuan and Ethlyn, and we find him stuck in Lenster with a lot of armoured guys charging towards there. So, is he a highly competent unit? NOPE, he starts at level 1, he's a swordlocked pursuitless foot unit facing a lot of lances. Thankfully, he has both Fin and Nanna/Janne to help with these and the brigand band that show up (and depending on your style, Fee). And as for himself, he has Continue with a decent chance to proc from the beginning, Critical to help with killing anything, alright bases and good growths across the board. It's kind of a shame how many lances there are in this part of the game and the rest of Thracia does make things harder for him, especially because he also starts Chapter 8 outside Lenster, away from everyone else. But as is, he's merely a decent prince. And that's his class, so like Lachesis, he gets Master Knight on promotion. Not only is the boost to weapon ranks great, he also gets Pursuit, great gains (+4 Str, Mag and Res, +5 Skl and Def and +6 Spd) and a horse, to suddenly make him a badass. So, he promotes into a 9 move, Canto, Pursuit and Continue and the stats and weapon ranks to use all of this. So, once he hits level 20 he's amazing, and it's pretty easy to get during (if not by) Chapter 9 if you use him enough in Chapter 7 and 8. The trouble is, he's got a slow start like Celice, but not a lot of axes or Pursuit to make promotion easier. After he promotes he's a definite front line unit who demolishes most things easily up to the endgame, especially now that he can wield everything barring most Light tomes and holy weapons. And while his magic and resistance won't be much, it won't be a big deal barring a few cases (BLUME, the mages in Chapter 10, the wall of Edda). Either way, he's a great promoted unit, once he gets there, and at least can fight better than Lachesis did. And that's without mentioning Rescue staff shenanigans.

Also, I'll be honest and say Leaf is my favourite lord in the games I've played, and this is because he has to go through Thracia 776, which is terrible in gameplay and story (as in, that's a terrible thing to get through and survive), and his amazing ability in this game.

Leaf can inherit from Ethlyn, but only the swords and rings from her, and the Iron Sword he'll always start with. So, obviously Pursuit ring is a high priority for him, the Return ring is good if you want him to join the main force early, and as for swords, I'd say give an Iron Blade, the Light Blade and maybe Defender (Clearly I'm stupider than I look) if you want to. And on pairings, Nanna's one that seems to be canonical, at least from FE5's perspective.

I'm rating him 8/10. He's great when he's promoted, and if youdon't have a bunch of great other kids he's fantastic, while still being good when he promotes otherwise.

Edited January 20, 2017 by Dayni

[Darrman]

Leaf is a chump and an awful lor- oh wait, wrong game. Leaf starts out at level 1 and a huge horde of armours are charging at him. Well, actually there's only seven and a mage, but they're really scary or something. So our hero, his Jeigan and his waifu deal with those chumps. How does our hero fare? Well he comes at level 1. And his bases aren't exactly great. At least he has decent growths in most departments and he has his trusty Light Sword, assuming no-one robbed Ethlin of it in order to slap a few kills on the thing. Unfortunately, Leaf lacks Pursuit, but his parents give him Continue and Critical at least. He also has <8 movement so I'm required to hate him so keep that in mind...

Until he reaches level 20. Then he promotes. Leaf's days of being a useless scrub are no more. He is now a Master Knight. And that means he is now awesome. Big stat bonuses? Check. A horse? Check. A ranks in nearly everything? Check. Pursuit? Check. Only thing he lacks is major holy blood, but he doesn't need it. Anything he touches is probably gonna die. That fancy A staves lets him use Rescue. Leaf and Rescue go wonderfully together. Someone falling a bit behind? Give them a leg up! Wanna seize a castle really fast? Give Celice a ten-space head start! Even better? He can canto off somewhere afterwards and get danced and do more rescuing. Or stabbing. Or healing. Or doing anything really. He really is amazing. It's definitely worth the effort.

He takes a bit to get going, but the second half of Gen 2? Leaf leaves it in the dust. 9/10.

[Vaximillian]

25 minutes ago, Dayni said:

It's time for another Prince! Jeez, will there be more nobility in G2 than in G1?

Well, let's count the princes and princesses alone: Seliph and Julia of Grannvale; Leif and Altena (and Arione, if he counts) of Leonster; Ares, Dermott, and Nanna of Nordion; Shanan, Ulster, and Larcei of Isaach; Ced and Fee of Silesse, 12 total unless I've forgotten somebody. Oh, also if Jamke was married in Gen 1, add two more for Verdane.

Whereas in Gen 1 there are Quan of Leonster, Ayra of Isaach, Jamke of Verdane, Lachesis of Nordion, and Lewyn of Silesse. And Deidre, I guess, as she's a daughter to a prince? Six total.

[qwernst]

By popular demand from earlier in the thread.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJKvmBCkzI8&feature=youtu.be

[CappnRob]

I'm fucking dying, qwernst. Please keep making these. <3

[Flee Fleet!]

Yees qwernst! Liking this vid now!

[Valkama]

Leif is no doubt the best unit in the game once he is promoted and with good planning he can promote in chapter 7. He still suffers the same problems as Seliph though so 9.5/10

[Punished Dayni]

49 minutes ago, Vaximillian said:

Well, let's count the princes and princesses alone: Seliph and Julia of Grannvale; Leif and Altena (and Arione, if he counts) of Leonster; Ares, Dermott, and Nanna of Nordion; Shanan, Ulster, and Larcei of Isaach; Ced and Fee of Silesse, 12 total unless I've forgotten somebody. Oh, also if Jamke was married in Gen 1, add two more for Verdane.

Whereas in Gen 1 there are Quan of Leonster, Ayra of Isaach, Jamke of Verdane, Lachesis of Nordion, and Lewyn of Silesse. And Deidre, I guess, as she's a daughter to a prince? Six total.

Yeah, I already knew, if you thought I was serious with that line. It is a bit ridiculous just how many are royal kids though. I mean, it's at least half of G2.

And King Shaggy would be the best localisation qwernst. :P

[OliKad]

1 hour ago, qwernst said:

By popular demand from earlier in the thread.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJKvmBCkzI8&feature=youtu.be

<3