FE10 Tierlist 2017

[Sweet_Basil]

And yes, Lyre is better than Fiona. Laguz benefit double from stat boosters and Lyre is only 1 level away from doubling everything. So she needs 2 energy drops to be usable. Fiona would still be bad with 5 of them. I suppose you can make a case with her affinity though (due to forced deployment and rescue utility?).

It's an interesting argument but idk about that, I think it depends the difficulty mode, because in Normal it's much easier to make something out of Fiona than it is with Lyre thanks to the abundance of BEXP. Either way Lyre's cat gauge is going to be a big issue forever until she gets the gems. However unlike Fiona, Lyre isn't getting slaughtered by everyone on her join time.

Beorc are easier to work with so I think I'm with Fiona on this one. Lyre level ups too slowly for my liking.

Edited January 15, 2017 by Sweet_Basil

[Augestein]

I don't see how a chapter can count 'against' a unit- either they help clear a chapter or they aren't deployed/aren't available.

Well it does for some and not others. That's my issue. Again, Leonardo is one of the more useful units in the DB and he has a wretched endgame, and guess what? He has a low score. Volug has a great early game and a so-so end game. Better score than Caineghis. Like... What?

[-Cynthia-]

Well it does for some and not others. That's my issue. Again, Leonardo is one of the more useful units in the DB and he has a wretched endgame, and guess what? He has a low score. Volug has a great early game and a so-so end game. Better score than Caineghis. Like... What?

I'd rate Leonardo low because I think he's pretty useless overall, not because of getting 'negative' points for Endgame.

Volug contributes more to clearing chapters (and side objectives) over the course of the game than Cain does. Cain is a good deployment choice when he's available, but is limited in his ability to affect any given playthrough due to his availability and the fact that there are many other great units to deploy alongside him.Tiering units based on how they contribute to a playthrough (usually measured by lowering turns or something similar) is a logical method for tiering units- although it would be possible to tier units discounting availability that's not how many people think.

Edited January 15, 2017 by -Cynthia-

[ping]

Well it does for some and not others. That's my issue. Again, Leonardo is one of the more useful units in the DB and he has a wretched endgame, and guess what? He has a low score. Volug has a great early game and a so-so end game. Better score than Caineghis. Like... What?

I haven't tried DLuna's suggestion yet, but calling Leo one of the more useful units might be stretching it a bit. His only game in pt.1 is delivering some mediocre to bad chip damage and DLuna's suggestion makes him an additional good damage dealer in the laguz slaughterfests in pt.3, but still not an overpowered unit and it's just a small part of the game anyway.

You kind of answer your own question, too. Cain has a good endgame (i.e. 5 maps) and nothing else, while Volug has part 1 (5 maps), part 3 (3 maps) and part 4 (2 maps, not counting the tower) to be useful. With S strike, he should be a decent pick even in part 4, so even if you don't agree with me that he's more valuable in part 1 than Cain is in the tower - Volug has still more impact purely based on the number of chapters he can fight in.

Related question: Who would you rate higher - Athos or FE7!Marcus?

[Dark Holy Elf]

Well it does for some and not others. That's my issue. Again, Leonardo is one of the more useful units in the DB and he has a wretched endgame, and guess what? He has a low score. Volug has a great early game and a so-so end game. Better score than Caineghis. Like... What?

I think it's safe to say that Leonardo's low scores come from people like me who don't consider him to be one of the more useful DB units. In fact I find him one of the worst.

Also Volug > Skrimir in endgame by quite a bit, should you decide to use either.

-You'll be using Laguz Gems so Skrimir's gauge isn't an advantage.

-Volug will have SS strike if used consistently pre-endgame maps, so while he loses atk it isn't by a crazy amount or anything. It does mean he misses some 2HKOs that Skrimir will snag, I'll grant, but...

-Volug will likely have capped speed or close to it; he doubles everything (needs Nasir for auras nautrally). Skrimir needs a 25% speed proc to even double endgame Generals on NM (two on HM, if memory serves?) and likely isn't doubling anything faster than them.

-Volug wil have a support which, combined with capped speed and 25+ luck can give him 155-160 avo (with Nolan/Zihark) or 140-145 (with Jill/Micaiah/Sothe), making him almost invincible. Resolve can make him completely invincible, if you want.

-Speaking of Resolve, Skrimir CAN double things with Resolve but every map except E-2 features a significant number of enemy magic users who can kill half-HP Skrimir very easily, so no thanks.

-Finally, Volug brings his support, which helps make Zihark/Nolan/Jill (endgame-caliber units) better. Skrimir has no such reason to be used. This is important because as 1-range units who miss turn 1, neither really screams "must use" at base, as the four royals + Giffca outclass them at the same role.

[Dunal]

No. I didn't. I get that Mia is in the better army and needed less. But Zihark isn't really needed either. That's my beef with it.

Err.. I really disagree on that one.

DB is really sparse for good units, and Zihark happens to be one of the only ones that is functional at base, eclipses others in the first 5 maps he's in, and lategame is as good as anyone else. Mostly due to insane avoid and only needs his killer/brave to kill anything he wants... at base. Then come part 3 he's growing as much as anyone else would and even has the excuse to be given Paragon in part 1 since Micaiah doesn't even need EXP to do what she's best at later on.

Mia is in an army where not only are there far more powerful units but enemies are pretty weak and you have 3 authority stars.

Pent and Seth are not good examples. Pent and Seth start up good, and end with stats similar to what we're having on units that were raised. When Pent joins, Erk is massively underleveled in comparison, will never have A rank in staves even if he were promoted, and Pent always has more defense than Erk. Even if Erk was the exact same level Pent would still be better. He also comes with a free A support. Seth is even worse as the only noteworthy stat Franz has on him is speed eventually, and 20 speed is enough. This isn't even remotely close to the same thing here. You're not investing in either. If either got 0 stat ups the entire game, they'd STILL have use for a considerable amount of the game. Units like Sothe or Zihark cannot say the same. The issue I have is that there are certain units people have to invest in regardless and people just bypass on some and then make it a focal point on others.

Seth/Pent were used because strictly lategame their stats are a bit inferior objectively. Compared to say Franz or Nino. But the reality is that stat differences have no impact because the foes you're against aren't that powerful.

Zihark stat-wise isn't even worse than others. Arguably better, even. And compared to Pent, joins relatively earlier as well.

And Zihark is in the harder game compared to those two.

[Augestein]

I haven't tried DLuna's suggestion yet, but calling Leo one of the more useful units might be stretching it a bit. His only game in pt.1 is delivering some mediocre to bad chip damage and DLuna's suggestion makes him an additional good damage dealer in the laguz slaughterfests in pt.3, but still not an overpowered unit and it's just a small part of the game anyway.

You kind of answer your own question, too. Cain has a good endgame (i.e. 5 maps) and nothing else, while Volug has part 1 (5 maps), part 3 (3 maps) and part 4 (2 maps, not counting the tower) to be useful. With S strike, he should be a decent pick even in part 4, so even if you don't agree with me that he's more valuable in part 1 than Cain is in the tower - Volug has still more impact purely based on the number of chapters he can fight in.

Related question: Who would you rate higher - Athos or FE7!Marcus?

In terms of investment to usefulness ratio? Yeah, he still is. You can get use out of him with Beastfoe, and Forged Iron bows with his affinity are still decent enough. It's more useful than many other characters with negligible investment. The rest of them I gave higher scores simply because they stop being bad. Leo doesn't. Which is why I still gave him a score of 3.5. Because he's the best of the bad units.

But I don't agree that he's better more valuable? Perhaps. But not better. The rating here would be dubious at best, and is still biased, because Elincia should then be lower. As Elincia comes back kinda mediocre even if she was good in Part 2. Her base stats aren't terribly hot, and any unit around her that you raised will probably be more powerful. She's the strongest healer, no doubt though. If we start looking at it the way some people are, I'm calling foul on even more ratings rather than less. Because Haar is there as well as competition, and the Crimea Knights aren't too bad either, and in Endgame is the only time she's really good because in the prologue she has a slim sword.

I would still give both a good score. Marcus kinda fades out, but he's still not bad towards the end. Athos appears and is good, but still not invincible at the end. He's still valuable with things like being a unit that can use all of the magical S rank tomes, so if you missed out on someone, you can use it, and he makes it the easiest to kill the dragon. He's 100% able to kill it with the help of maybe a dance or a physic healer. Stuff like that matters to me. There's no reason to be like Athos 7/10 because even if he's super good in his chapter, he's just not there to be good, you feel me?

Also Volug > Skrimir in endgame by quite a bit, should you decide to use either.

-You'll be using Laguz Gems so Skrimir's gauge isn't an advantage.

-Volug will have SS strike if used consistently pre-endgame maps, so while he loses atk it isn't by a crazy amount or anything. It does mean he misses some 2HKOs that Skrimir will snag, I'll grant, but...

-Volug will likely have capped speed or close to it; he doubles everything (needs Nasir for auras nautrally). Skrimir needs a 25% speed proc to even double endgame Generals on NM (two on HM, if memory serves?) and likely isn't doubling anything faster than them.

-Volug wil have a support which, combined with capped speed and 25+ luck can give him 155-160 avo (with Nolan/Zihark) or 140-145 (with Jill/Micaiah/Sothe), making him almost invincible. Resolve can make him completely invincible, if you want.

-Speaking of Resolve, Skrimir CAN double things with Resolve but every map except E-2 features a significant number of enemy magic users who can kill half-HP Skrimir very easily, so no thanks.

-Finally, Volug brings his support, which helps make Zihark/Nolan/Jill (endgame-caliber units) better. Skrimir has no such reason to be used. This is important because as 1-range units who miss turn 1, neither really screams "must use" at base, as the four royals + Giffca outclass them at the same rol

- No. Depends on how many Laguz you bring to the end. There's 1 with the heron that'll probably want it. Ena might want one. Kurth doesn't start with formshift. So that's 3 uses right there for 1. And IIRC you get only 2. So it's hardly an issue to shrug off so quickly.

- Of which if I were using Skrimir I'd slap him with a Speedwing and keep resolve on him. There's not much you can do for Volug's attack outside of support someone that grants him atk. Which would be more viable if there were more Atk+ affinities in the DB, but that means giving him Micaiah, or Leonardo. Both of which aren't particularly nice for him. Even Shade won't help there because she's still OHKOed. Both are definitely getting paragon to help level, but it's pretty tough to level Laguz honestly. Part 1 Volug gets dirt nothing, and part 3 he has a hard time fighting too. Volug probably isn't close to speed as that requires like... 13 levels. And I think that's kinda pushing it for him to honestly have for endgame if we're going off of hard mode without some serious help.

- But he has resolve. So speed is less of an issue there as you can leave him in resolve range to still fight. So it's not nearly as lopsided, and Skrimir does have enough durability to safely remain in that range. 32 defense is capped Ike defense for reference. That's pretty good. Especially when he has some room for growth.

- Which isn't that big of a deal next to Kurth and/or the myriad of res boosting titles on the floor.

- Which requires you to bring not one, but two DBers into endgame which means that you're no longer playing as efficiently as possible. Paragon can only go on one of them at a time, and that means intentionally slowing yourself down to ensure that Volug gets enough EXP to be better. The A support is real, but perhaps not the stats for both Volug and his partner. Which is why I said it's more of a resolve versus support. Of which, I'm kinda partial to resolve for free so I can put Nihil on the person so they can actually fight the boss instead of needing Parity. And that's the thing. They DO get outclassed by the royals. My point was that Skrimir and Volug are suspiciously similar by endgame and Volug is nearly 2 points higher. Hence my "we put too much weight on early game" and it's also random because of examples that I'll point out below like... Mist and Sanaki.

Like if you examine this more carefully you'll see exactly what I mean. According to this, Nephenee > Giffca (what?) , Stefan < Geoffrey (despite the fact that neither can really get supports, Stefan never sucks at any given point, and Geof has nothing on Stefan in part 4 which literally means that we're saying that 2 chapters make him much better when Geoffrey isn't even close to Stefan stat wise),Giffca >= Skrimir (seriously? They aren't even close in relations to each other. Giffca is much better). A lot of these have no real rhyme or reason to them. Volug is excused for being good early on, fine, so what the heck is Nephenee's excuse? She's never extraordinary and is just an average run of the mill unit. And those aren't the only ones, it's all over the place. Sanaki is somehow better than Mist despite the fact that Mist never is actually bad at her job of being a healer, while Sanaki is just a lousy mage that can't heal... Yet even if they are right next to each other, she's *slightly* better than Mist. I'm not buying it. Mist is fine when you have her, and I don't want to take her to endgame, but Sanaki is never fine and I don't want to take her into endgame. Forced be damned.

Err.. I really disagree on that one.

DB is really sparse for good units, and Zihark happens to be one of the only ones that is functional at base, eclipses others in the first 5 maps he's in, and lategame is as good as anyone else. Mostly due to insane avoid and only needs his killer/brave to kill anything he wants... at base. Then come part 3 he's growing as much as anyone else would and even has the excuse to be given Paragon in part 1 since Micaiah doesn't even need EXP to do what she's best at later on.

Mia is in an army where not only are there far more powerful units but enemies are pretty weak and you have 3 authority stars.

1-5: Volug joins. He's arguably better than Zihark outside of 1-2 range for the limited wing edges. Granted Z isn't here but the point still stands.

1-6: Tauroneo joins who is without a doubt the best unit.

1-7: Tormod's clan joins and all of them are respectable.

1-8: So many forced units and all of them are amazing.

1-9: Not there.

1-E: All of those uber units sans Tauroneo for whatever reason.

3-6: Midway through the chapter the BK comes to help. Biorhythms make evasion kinda dicey at moments.

3-12: Can't argue there, and defense is at its best. I'd rather use a raised Jill or Nolan for the chokepoints, and if that's not enough you have a bunch of yellow units that are willing to die for you.

3-13: Nightmare. Everyone here kinda sucks to a certain extent but you still have yellow units to die.

It's not nearly as sparse as some make it sound. Even with Paragon in part 1, assuming I'm not playing to simply raise Zihark, he's not nearly as valuable as some would make it. Mia is a good unit in a sea of great units. That doesn't make her worse. She functions fine.

Seth/Pent were used because strictly lategame their stats are a bit inferior objectively. Compared to say Franz or Nino. But the reality is that stat differences have no impact because the foes you're against aren't that powerful.

Zihark stat-wise isn't even worse than others. Arguably better, even. And compared to Pent, joins relatively earlier as well.

And Zihark is in the harder game compared to those two.

It's still false. Con is a stat that doesn't grow in the games. Therefore if Nino uses anything, she's slowed down. Pent isn't slowed down unless he tries to use a Elfire, and you could give him a body ring to end that. That never stops for Nino. Pent will always have better defense than Nino (even if they could somehow reach 20/20 before endgame). She has lousy attack when she first joins, and she doesn't have good defense either. So even assuming that we were talking about endgame stats, it's still able to be debated because it comes from free A support + better defensive merit + A rank in staves versus slightly more raw magic power. That's easy. Pent. I already discussed Erk versus Pent. It's not even the same thing here. Pent joins first and then Nino joins. Not the other way around. For Seth, it's even worse: The only thing Franz wins in is hp and speed. Seth actually has more res than Franz, and if Franz opts to not go Paladin, he loses in movement as well. I guess Franz can be happy that he wins with that 1 whopping point of strength though. Like I said, these examples are absolutely horrible.

Zihark isn't worse. No. But he's not that much better is the issue.

And that's where it starts counting even less. DB chapters aren't that hard. They are harder, but the game throws super units at you constantly in RD. It's hard when you try to keep every scrub fielded and leveled. When you try to win? It's not that hard.

Edited January 15, 2017 by Augestein

[-Cynthia-]

I think a lot of this tiering philosophy is the difference between "Would I choose to deploy Unit X or Unit Y?" or "How does Unit X affect completion of the game compared to Unit Y?" I prefer the latter because the former seems more theoretical- yes I would deploy Cain in every chapter given the opportunity but this possibility doesn't actually exist.

I agree that Zihark isn't that critical overall-he's useful in Part 1, but outclassed by Tauroneo/Nailah/Muarim/Tormod/BK at various points and is worse than Sothe because of worse 1-2 range. He doesn't have the durability to take on many laguz in Part 3 and their hit is high enough to make dodgetanking unreliable. He's a good unit, but I find Mia tends to have a better Part 4 because her stats are higher coming out of Part 3.

Edited January 15, 2017 by -Cynthia-

[ping]

Well, I agree that Sanaki is overrated af in this tierlist, but I still think that your focus on the endgame doesn't give Jeigans or Jeigan-y units enough credit. Athos stomps the dragon with a tiny bit of help? Cool, Marcus stomps the entire early- to midgame all on his own. Giffca is kinda good in the tower? Well, Skrimir loses in that part of the game, but he was pretty good in 4-P and (less so) 4-3, so that kinda evens out.

I don't see how that undervalues the endgame. I tried to give every part of the game equal weight and in my opinion, not being present for 90% of the game (as Athos) makes a unit less valuable, hence lower on my personal tierlist, than a unit who joins early but becomes obsolete at some point (Marcus; even in his FE6 incarnation). And this is even without factoring the different difficulty at the different stages in the game. Body RIng!Athos might turn the big scary dragon into a joke, but (on HM) the earlygame of FE6 becomes a nightmare without Marcus. And when his stats can't keep up anymore, you can just bench him without any disadvantages whatsoever. Who cares if he makes the deployment screen a tiny bit more crowded?

And again - I try to apply that logic to RD as well. A unit that's only present for 5 fights (some of which are so short that the transformation on turn 1 is actually pretty damn crippling) shouldn't have the same score as a unit that does comparably well for twice as long. I'm sure you'll find some scores in my list that aren't perfectly coherent with this (I actually would make a few adjustments in hindsight, but I don't think it's worth the hassle), but I don't think my general metric is wrong.

[Florete]

Again -- that would be true... if Fiona's bases were not so mindbogglingly bad.

Lyre "only" needs 2 energy drops and a single level of BEXP to have decent offence. So long as she smokes a lot of grass as well.

Fiona needs far far more than that to do anything of value in combat.

Plus it's not all terrible to be a Laguz -- no weapon required or gold for that. And has 9 (non-restricted) movement etc...

Fiona needs more investment to do something, but she's also much more valuable once she is. Lyre can be "okay" at best, Fiona can actually become pretty good, so I consider Fiona better.

Well it does for some and not others. That's my issue. Again, Leonardo is one of the more useful units in the DB and he has a wretched endgame, and guess what? He has a low score. Volug has a great early game and a so-so end game. Better score than Caineghis. Like... What?

Except Leonardo is easily one of the worst DB units. Edited January 15, 2017 by Florete

[Augestein]

I think a lot of this tiering philosophy is the difference between "Would I choose to deploy Unit X or Unit Y?" or "How does Unit X affect completion of the game compared to Unit Y?" I prefer the latter because the former seems more theoretical- yes I would deploy Cain in every chapter given the opportunity but this possibility doesn't actually exist.

I agree that Zihark isn't that critical overall-he's useful in Part 1, but outclassed by Tauroneo/Nailah/Muarim/Tormod/BK at various points and is worse than Sothe because of worse 1-2 range. He doesn't have the durability to take on many laguz in Part 3 and their hit is high enough to make dodgetanking unreliable. He's a good unit, but I find Mia tends to have a better Part 4 because her stats are higher coming out of Part 3.

That's fair. I was more so going on when they actually appear. IE, using Cain again, I don't talk about how he would perform in theoretical chapters he's not there, but rather... How he performs when he is around. IE, Erk in FE7 is a decent unit, but if he appeared when Pent joined instead and had the base stats he starts out with, he'd be garbage tier. As he joins in the midgame when people are promoting and he's really weak. I don't care about his potential too much on this account because even if it WERE good, he's really bad when he joins.

This is what I'm saying. There aren't critical junctions with Mia like there are with Zihark. He HAS to get that Paragon, he needs to get his A support affinity rolling in order to survive, and by part 4, he's now directly competing with people, and suddenly he's just mediocre. Meanwhile, Mia was never astounding, but she was never "bad." Just kinda there.

Well, I agree that Sanaki is overrated af in this tierlist, but I still think that your focus on the endgame doesn't give Jeigans or Jeigan-y units enough credit. Athos stomps the dragon with a tiny bit of help? Cool, Marcus stomps the entire early- to midgame all on his own. Giffca is kinda good in the tower? Well, Skrimir loses in that part of the game, but he was pretty good in 4-P and (less so) 4-3, so that kinda evens out.

I don't see how that undervalues the endgame. I tried to give every part of the game equal weight and in my opinion, not being present for 90% of the game (as Athos) makes a unit less valuable, hence lower on my personal tierlist, than a unit who joins early but becomes obsolete at some point (Marcus; even in his FE6 incarnation). And this is even without factoring the different difficulty at the different stages in the game. Body RIng!Athos might turn the big scary dragon into a joke, but (on HM) the earlygame of FE6 becomes a nightmare without Marcus. And when his stats can't keep up anymore, you can just bench him without any disadvantages whatsoever. Who cares if he makes the deployment screen a tiny bit more crowded?

And again - I try to apply that logic to RD as well. A unit that's only present for 5 fights (some of which are so short that the transformation on turn 1 is actually pretty damn crippling) shouldn't have the same score as a unit that does comparably well for twice as long. I'm sure you'll find some scores in my list that aren't perfectly coherent with this (I actually would make a few adjustments in hindsight, but I don't think it's worth the hassle), but I don't think my general metric is wrong.

Here's the thing though. They'd both get good scores, so I don't see the problem here. Athos and Marcus are both good units. Marcus struggles towards the end, and that's some of the reason if I were rating him out of 10 hypothetically, he wouldn't be 10/10. As 10/10 incites not just being a good unit, but perfect. IE, Seth is a 10/10 unit. He doubles, he has respectable attack, he can ensure that he always fights at weapon triangle advantage-- or at least neutrality, his res is decent to tank. And he never falters at any given point. He supports with the main character, Eirika, so in a worst case scenario on a random make-up of teams, he can at least get a B rank support.For Giffca, he's fine here. Skrimir is alright here, nothing special, so how is it that he would be better when in 4-P he's completing with Naesala and your best units, and then by the tower is way, way worse?

That's how I see it undervaluing it when you have stuff like again, Skirmir versus Giffca. Giffca takes a massive dump on him, and Skrimir was never a hero of any chapter like say... Edward was in 1-P or even 1-1 for that matter. The issue isn't not being present, it's more that somehow being around nets you some points that shouldn't happen. Which honestly makes no sense. If you're bad when you join, you're going to probably continue to be bad throughout the game. There aren't many units like Fiona that have incredibly lopsided scaling, or Sothe that are on a continuous drop as the game goes further. It seems really dumb to say "Marcus FE6 = 10/10 unit" when he's nightmareish to continue to use after a certain point in the game. If anything, being that good like that should be what stops him from being worse than units that are just so-so like Lilina or Noah (neither are bad). IE, in Shadow Dragon, even if you hate using Jeigan, even if his stats did turn to crappy to keep him a paladin towards the end, you can turn him into a Bishop / Sage when you unlock reclassing and still use him to do his job while providing another healer, (and 30 mag growth isn't terrible by any stretch). or even using him over Wrys-- a unit that you probably won't take to end game anyways. Which goes to show how useful Jagen is rather than how bad Wrys is in this case.

And I can agree with them being bad for using 1 turn. Which is why I'm scratching my head over this whole thing. Because you'd think Skirmir would be knocked down a peg because of this. Which makes me wonder how Volug is so high and then... You see where I'm coming from? The placements on characters seems incredibly random.

Except Leonardo is easily one of the worst DB units.

He's bad, but he still has use. I said "useful," not good. Sort of like how Micaiah can be useful, but she is not good.

Edited January 15, 2017 by Augestein

[Florete]

He's bad, but he still has use. I said "useful," not good. Sort of like how Micaiah can be useful, but she is not good.

Except still no. Leonardo's chip often isn't useful at all. Micaiah's Thani-bombing is quite noticeably better.

[Dunal]

Except still no. Leonardo's chip often isn't useful at all. Micaiah's Thani-bombing is quite noticeably better.

Leo only needs to be level 10 by part 3. Master Seal + Beastfoe. One rounds cats on 3-6 with the Bravebow (or even just Lugh(?)). One rounds tigers with a Speedwing + Lughnasadh.

As well as everything in 3-13 with the Taksh.

Since Leo is forced, this easy-to-do setup is well worth doing. You get an extra good unit for 2 maps. As such, Leo is best given the beastfoe to take advantage of his ranged prof weapon or bravebow -- to kill without being retaliated.

And his chip is useful in Part 1 with the steel bow or a forge. Not great -- but okay. He's useful with the longbow on ledges (typically 1-5). And one shots pegasi in 1-6-1. Also a filler support to provide to someone (+2 ATK/DEF).

I think a lot of this tiering philosophy is the difference between "Would I choose to deploy Unit X or Unit Y?" or "How does Unit X affect completion of the game compared to Unit Y?" I prefer the latter because the former seems more theoretical- yes I would deploy Cain in every chapter given the opportunity but this possibility doesn't actually exist.

I agree that Zihark isn't that critical overall-he's useful in Part 1, but outclassed by Tauroneo/Nailah/Muarim/Tormod/BK at various points and is worse than Sothe because of worse 1-2 range. He doesn't have the durability to take on many laguz in Part 3 and their hit is high enough to make dodgetanking unreliable. He's a good unit, but I find Mia tends to have a better Part 4 because her stats are higher coming out of Part 3.

Not really. Tigers 132 HIT. Zihark with supports has 102 avoid at base level. That's about 18-20% true hit without brush.

It takes on average 10 attacks to kill Zihark from full HP.

Volug is about the same with Zihark also being part of the reason. Which is even more points for both of them (since they are benefiting eachother not just themselves).

And no, Zihark doesn't need Paragon at all in part 1. He doesn't even need EXP at all. Just supports and a killer/brave weapon. Unless you want him to one round cats as well.

Edited January 15, 2017 by DLuna

[Dark Holy Elf]

- No. Depends on how many Laguz you bring to the end. There's 1 with the heron that'll probably want it. Ena might want one. Kurth doesn't start with formshift. So that's 3 uses right there for 1. And IIRC you get only 2. So it's hardly an issue to shrug off so quickly.

Why on earth would Kurth or Ena need Laguz Gems? We're barely using them for combat and their gauges go down real slow when we do. Storebought Laguz Stones will serve them fine. Laguz Stones are also fine for the heron (and a lot of people here argue Rafiel is the best anyway, and he won't even need those). Finally, you get 15 uses of Laguz Gem in total: one set from the desert, one from Giffca, and one from Nasir. Any combat laguz you bring to endgame is likely to have access to Laguz Gems at little cost to the rest of your team, unless you're already bringing Giffca AND at least one other combat laguz (Janaff or Ulki most likely)... at which point we presumably both agree that you're not likely to bring either Skrimir or Volug unless you're doing a laguz-only run.

- Of which if I were using Skrimir I'd slap him with a Speedwing and keep resolve on him. There's not much you can do for Volug's attack outside of support someone that grants him atk

Or... Energy Drops, if we're handing out stat boosters. Energy Drops are both less in-demand in general and Volug can benefit from one for way longer (the one in Part 1, specifically), so this is a better use of your resources, for all that in both cases I'd rather not give either a stat booster and will continue this discussion assuming that neither gets such favouritism.

Volug probably isn't close to speed as that requires like... 13 levels. And I think that's kinda pushing it for him to honestly have for endgame if we're going off of hard mode without some serious help.

I think getting Volug 12-13 levels by endgame is reasonable (and regardless, he only needs ~32 speed for E-1 and ~34 thereafter; he'll be fine). This may reflect the fact that I lean on him quite heavilly in Part 3? But do remember that he can go to 4-5 which is an exp goldmine; enemy laguz are one of the few good sources of exp for your own laguz. And I often send him that way because as a dodge-based unit he is most effective in the path with the most authority stars.

32 defense is capped Ike defense for reference. That's pretty good. Especially when he has some room for growth.

Below half HP, Skrimir will rarely be more than 2 hits away from death against res-targetting units and red dragons, which is a lot of what you fight late. You might squeeze out an extra hit if you can get him on the correct terrain, but that's a major limiter, especially on a unit without canto. By comparison, Volug isn't going to worry about much of anything defensively, and can happily sit on whatever terrain he wants (though he will want to stay near his support partner). That's a big advantage he has, and probably the single biggest reason I would argue he's a better endgame unit than Skrimir.

Which requires you to bring not one, but two DBers into endgame which means that you're no longer playing as efficiently as possible.

Let's not pretend for a moment we're playing as efficiently as possible if we bring Skrimir to endgame. He is completely outclassed by the four royals and Giffca, so he's competing for one of the five other slots which are better used on Elincia and beorc using SS weapons. I already acknowledged that most likely neither is going to be on the endgame squad. However, Jill often will be even in quite efficient play, and Zihark/Nolan aren't crazy choices either, and if one of them has Volug as a support partner, that's a point in favour of bringing him, something which Skrimir will never have.

Of which, I'm kinda partial to resolve for free so I can put Nihil on the person so they can actually fight the boss instead of needing Parity.

I'm not terribly interested in putting one of my valuable boss-killing Nihil scrolls on a unit with less than 34 speed.

Volug can actually use both skills at once if you pass on Savage, if this is important to you. (I don't personally feel that it is since better units will get Nihil.)

My point was that Skrimir and Volug are suspiciously similar by endgame and Volug is nearly 2 points higher. Hence my "we put too much weight on early game" and it's also random because of examples that I'll point out below like... Mist and Sanaki.

Volug has a lot of maps being good earlier even if we accept that they're similar late, so if anything a 2-point gap seems to undersell the difference in worth between them to me.

You won't see any argument from me regarding Mist vs Snaaki, but then I think Sanaki is one of the most overrated units on this tier list. She's worse than Bastian rather clearly (unless you give her points for being forced, which I definitely don't think we should) and is 2 points higher than him.

Your other comparisons are ones that I personally find difficult. Like I personally rated Stefan above Geoffrey, sure, but Stefan is a difficult unit to rate and I have no issue with people who disagree. For many people, Stefan will see almost no playtime while Geoffrey will be useful in 2-3 and 3-9.

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

Since I can't see who said what anymore, I must make the replies generally.

 

Fiona

Unlike Lyre she has serious potential and doesn't cost a slot.

In easy and even normal (if you give her a chance) she will turn out into a very promising unit. Her growths are really good, has two useful free skills and earth-affinity.

Her only issues are her low base level and her awful availibility in part 1. Furthermore she suffers by the terrain so much.

1-7 is the chapter you have to feed her with kills. She needs at least 5-6 level ups to become useful later on what is very possible to do after training her.  Then she'll have the stats you can work with her through the entire game.

I even go so far to say that she's a better lance user than Aran just because of her higher speed and better affinity.

 

Ena + Kurth

They don't need Laguz gems because they only really exist as support. Just keep them out of any enemy attack ranges and they'll be fine.

 

Sanaki

I don't see why she's overrated with a score <5.

She's not a bad unit in all because she has a good late game. She can some stuff against the dragons, is pretty much immune against the spirits and is able to double the aura. Technically she's the best mage in the game in your first playthrough.

Her base level and stats are bleh but paragon can fix them.

 

Zihark

He's definitely better than Edward in 3-6, better than him in 3-13, if he has at least good biorhythm and A-support in earth.

Otherwise both are equal because they'll attack with range swords from the central ledge. Zihark can do a bit more than Edward though because of adept. But I don't say that Zihark is so much better than Edward. Other units will be used on the front.

In 3-12 I find both equally mediocre. They barely can take two hits (probably even rather Edward than Zihark). Zihark is only good, if his biorhythm is good at least. Also Volug, Jill and Nolan will be your units for the front.

[ping]

5 minutes ago, Eleanor Hume said:

Sanaki

I don't see why she's overrated with a score <5.

She's not a bad unit in all because she has a good late game. She can some stuff against the dragons, is pretty much immune against the spirits and is able to double the aura. Technically she's the best mage in the game in your first playthrough.

Her base level and stats are bleh but paragon can fix them.

She isn't even the best mage if you train her up. Given equal amount of investment (i.e. a lot), Calill still just walks over Sanaki: She can use staves, has no strength issues, caps speed reasonably fast (and BEXP doesn't even help Sanaki that much) and is quite a bit less squishy. In exchange, Sanaki can use Light magic (completely meaningless, unless I'm forgetting something here) and has admittedly a pretty big MAG lead. I honestly don't see what's so special about her.

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

Best mage was referred to her caps.

 

 

What are you meaning with "special"?

She got a mediocre average, because she's mediocre for the most part, but not really bad.

In 4-P her bases are still high enough neither get oneshotted nor get doubled. She needs a few level to keep it till 4-3. Paragon helps her. Light magic isn't too bad for her either due to her low base strength.

In the endgame she'll be powerful, but a bit slow. However she's still a great chipper. By giving her spirit dusts to max her magic and goddess icons to her to max her luck, with bexp. you can still bring up her speed to 31. And she technically needs only 3 strength to use rexfire without AS penalty in the final map with 2x bloodtide.

 

Calill's better in the longrun, but her low availibility and the fact that Sanaki's forced in the endgame screw her.

[Radiant head]

calil and sanaki aren't even competing for anything considering that the latter is deployed either way and isn't competing with 10 objectively better deployments 

[Fire Emblem Fan]

It won't let me go back to previous pages and I can't see any older posts...but from what I can remember of the list, I think Mia should definitely be higher than Zihark, Brom higher than Laura, and Sothe waaaay lower than he is. But those are really my only complaints, and they aren't even complaints, just things I'm surprised about and stuff.

[Shadow Mir]

5 hours ago, Eleanor Hume said:

Best mage was referred to her caps.

 

 

What are you meaning with "special"?

She got a mediocre average, because she's mediocre for the most part, but not really bad.

In 4-P her bases are still high enough neither get oneshotted nor get doubled. She needs a few level to keep it till 4-3. Paragon helps her. Light magic isn't too bad for her either due to her low base strength.

In the endgame she'll be powerful, but a bit slow. However she's still a great chipper. By giving her spirit dusts to max her magic and goddess icons to her to max her luck, with bexp. you can still bring up her speed to 31. And she technically needs only 3 strength to use rexfire without AS penalty in the final map with 2x bloodtide.

 

Calill's better in the longrun, but her low availibility and the fact that Sanaki's forced in the endgame screw her.

So you think 2 damage makes up for a huge loss of flexibility (seriously, you don't see anything wrong with having Sanaki take up a space near all three of Gareth (who has some pretty severe baggage of his own), Ena, and Nasir)? Sorry, but I think it doesn't even come close. Also, that's assuming that you went out of your way to get any of the spirit dusts, one of which needs to be bought, another that is in an awkward location, and the last one needs Boyd and Mist to get an A support before part 3 endgame. And that's disregarding that I could just give those to Calill anyhow.

Edited January 17, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia

[ping]

1 hour ago, Radiant head said:

calil and sanaki aren't even competing for anything considering that the latter is deployed either way and isn't competing with 10 objectively better deployments 

True, and I'm not saying that Calill is particularly good either. But I personally don't factor in forced deployment either way, so Calill (and Tormod) are the best comparisons looking at the endgame.

 

@Jules: By 'special' I mean something that makes her better than the other magic users in the game. I honestly don't see any of your points as such.

• It's nice that Light magic access can mitigate Sanaki's speed issues. But it's still hardly a point in her favor if the other mages have enough strength to wield Anima tomes without issue anyway.
• Her Mag cap is only two point higher than Calill's, which is honestly not all that impressive. Sanaki is potentially more dodgy, but Calill has more survivability. You're taking heavy use of statboosters into account, but Calill with spirit dust will reach her magic cap rather soon as well.
• Sanaki needs Blood Tide and White Pool to double the auras, while Calill only needs White Pool, so the doubly supported spot can be used by a physical unit that can use the strength boost to directly increase their damage.

So really, Sanaki in the endgame is not as good as Calill (who is pretty mediocre herself) and needs quite a bit of investment to get to that point. That's pretty bad in my book.

[Florete]

3 hours ago, Eleanor Hume said:

Calill's better in the longrun, but her low availibility and the fact that Sanaki's forced in the endgame screw her.

Sanaki has nothing to do with Calill.

2 hours ago, Fire Emblem Fan said:

It won't let me go back to previous pages and I can't see any older posts...but from what I can remember of the list, I think Mia should definitely be higher than Zihark, Brom higher than Laura, and Sothe waaaay lower than he is. But those are really my only complaints, and they aren't even complaints, just things I'm surprised about and stuff.

Sothe should be lower? Sothe should be way higher.

[-Cynthia-]

I don't think Sanaku's very good personally- she has pretty bad bases for when she joins. 28/10 physical durability and 23 base speed (with no promo boost to help her) is bad and most tomes make her speed even worse. We don't have much use for chip damage in rout chapters full of enemies.

[Hasnbaakoajsbakaiaja]

Wait, why is Astrid so low? I haven't played RD but I've played POR and Paragon makes her quite good. Whats wrong with her in FE10.

[Shadow Mir]

1 minute ago, 1japanfan said:

Wait, why is Astrid so low? I haven't played RD but I've played POR and Paragon makes her quite good. Whats wrong with her in FE10.

Her bases and availability are why she's so low.