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2 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

I dunno about you, but I find it hard to care that Aran might get doubled when he's generally still taking less damage than Meg is.

Meg has like four defense less than Aran at level 20 first tier. Of course she'll take less damage than Aran by get attacked only once.

Also here bases are pretty good for her level. She's only level 3, don't forget that!

Her low movement is only a real issue in 1-6-1 and in 1-E because the reinforcments from the entrance can catch her easily. In 1-8 Sothe, Nailah and Volug do the main stuff. In part 3 there's no map which disadvantages her at all since these are all more or less defend chaptets.

 

Edited by Eleanor Hume

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7 hours ago, Eleanor Hume said:

Meg has like four defense less than Aran at level 20 first tier. Of course she'll take less damage than Aran by get attacked only once.

Also here bases are pretty good for her level. She's only level 3, don't forget that!

Her low movement is only a real issue in 1-6-1 and in 1-E because the reinforcments from the entrance can catch her easily. In 1-8 Sothe, Nailah and Volug do the main stuff. In part 3 there's no map which disadvantages her at all since these are all more or less defend chaptets.

 

Which assumes they're going to be at the same level, which, like, ain't gonna happen, ever. Also, what's doubling Aran that won't be doubling Meg? Myrmidons and cats that he practically shrugs off once he has some levels under his belt?

No they aren't. 

Correction: Her move issues haunt her for pretty much all the chapters she's available in except 1-4.

Edited by Levant Mir Celestia

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5 hours ago, Eleanor Hume said:

Meg has like four defense less than Aran at level 20 first tier. Of course she'll take less damage than Aran by get attacked only once.

Also here bases are pretty good for her level. She's only level 3, don't forget that!

Her low movement is only a real issue in 1-6-1 and in 1-E because the reinforcments from the entrance can catch her easily. In 1-8 Sothe, Nailah and Volug do the main stuff. In part 3 there's no map which disadvantages her at all since these are all more or less defend chaptets.

 

bases for a unit's join time is way more valuable than bases for their level

and megs bases are utter trash

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11 hours ago, Eleanor Hume said:

Nolan has 15% less strength growth than Edward and has the same speed growth as him, but 3-4 lower base.

Edward does more damage to the enemies than Nolan because he'll double most of the enemies in part 1. With a forged weapon he has no problem to oneround them.

Sure, Nolan has more defense and can take two hits (except for steel axes), but he can do less to the enemies than Edward in HM, and so he usually levels lower than Edward does. If you're really lucky with Nolan's strength, he can maybe oneshot a mage. But that's rather unusual.

In part 1 in HM both are player phase units for the most part, even Nolan. Nolan suffers the second most of all DB units due to the difficulty jump between normal and hard after Aran. Edward does too in the very early chapters, but it can be easier fixed due to his higher base speed.

Edward can't use forged weapons in 1-P through 1-3 so he's not ORKOing anything there because he doesn't have enough Mt to 2HKO them. The laguz in 1-4 are also too bulky/fast for Edward to ORKO. A unit who's 2RKOing at best and being 2HKOd needs a pretty heavy turtling playstyle to use.

Edward also isn't always reliably doubling. He doesn't double any enemies in 1-1 without a speed proc(and 40% of Edwards don't get speed on their first level up) and a number of enemies have 10 AS and therefore need 2 speed levels from Edward to be doubled. In 1-2, there are only ~3 enemies which Edward can double with one speed level up (and one is the boss which he barely hurts) and a number of enemies have 11-12 AS here. And if Edward isn't doubling, he's 3-4HKOing (at 1 range) while getting 2HKOd back which is pretty bad and he needs a lot of levels to keep his offense up.

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11 hours ago, Eleanor Hume said:

Nolan has 15% less strength growth than Edward and has the same speed growth as him, but 3-4 lower base.

Edward does more damage to the enemies than Nolan because he'll double most of the enemies in part 1. With a forged weapon he has no problem to oneround them.

Sure, Nolan has more defense and can take two hits (except for steel axes), but he can do less to the enemies than Edward in HM, and so he usually levels lower than Edward does. If you're really lucky with Nolan's strength, he can maybe oneshot a mage. But that's rather unusual.

In part 1 in HM both are player phase units for the most part, even Nolan. Nolan suffers the second most of all DB units due to the difficulty jump between normal and hard after Aran. Edward does too in the very early chapters, but it can be easier fixed due to his higher base speed.

15% less growth is insignificant when Nolan has 5 more base Strength and uses a stronger weapon type. Edward's speed lead is only 2 points and Nolan catches up quick because he's your best non-Sothe combat until for the first few chapters. Due to this, Nolan has an offensive advantage for basically the entirety of Part 1, that only grows throughout the part. The gap in attack is not insignificant, and the enemies that Edward does double are few, on hard mode at least.

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I don't deny that Nolan is better than Edward in part 1's earlygame, 1-2 excluded.

  • He's the only one who can take two hits in 1-1. 
  • In 1-2 he starts already to struggle. With the steel axe equipped he can get doubled by a few enemies and also 2RKOed as Edward. With the hand axe his accuracy is awful. You're happy when you see >70%.
  • In 1-3 he's quite solid because he can take two hits except for steel axes. The soldiers also have speed penalty so he shouldn't get doubled with the steel axe equipped. It's definitely the worst chapter for Edward in this entire game.
  • In 1-4 he's ok against the cats, if he leveled speed at least once. Since you can forge in this chapter he doesn't have AS reduction anymore. However he'll get 2RKOed by tigers as Edward will. Overall Edward is better in this chapter, because he can double the tigers, and it's one of very few chapters he can make good use of wrath because laguz are locked on melee range. He can block as well as Nolan can, if he can't oneshot a laguz with a crit in enemy phase.
  • 1-5 is a great chapter for Edward. If you place him on the ledge, he can oneround all the fire mages including boss from the ledge. Sothe with forged knives could do it too of course but he's also needed elsewhere to get the masterseal.
  • In 1-6 Edward is normally so well leveled that he can oneround enemies with forged swords. With a Leo support he might even take two hits by steel lances, and so he's almost as tanky against enemies with physical weapons as Nolan. Sure, Nolan is still better against mages because of his much better resistance growth and has the better support.

During part 1 Edward gets levels faster because he's able to kill more without much effort.

Nolan's strength advantage in the beginning will be equaled later on due to Edward's higher strength growth. Furthermore axes are the most inaccurate weapon type in the game. That's not really an argument in the longrun.

In part 3 I definitely agree that Nolan is the better combat unit overall because of his affinity and his tankyness against the laguz.

Edward's earlygame is his problem. To make up his speed I give him as many kills as possible in the first two chapters. In the prolog he should try to get two levels to level speed at least once to double the fighters (except hand axe fighter next to boss) in the next chapter.

 

and megs bases are utter trash

for her joining time, yes (that's why I gave her only a 3)

for her level, no

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8 hours ago, Eleanor Hume said:

for her joining time, yes (that's why I gave her only a 3)

for her level, no

I fail to see what's with this "Meg's bases aren't that bad for her level" bullcrap, because even factoring in her low level, I ain't impressed.

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1-2 Nolan can use the Hand Axe to reliably avoid getting doubled. The accuracy isn't perfect (although 70s with True Hit is ok) - but the alternative is Edward getting 2HKOd and not ORKOing anyway (possibly not 2RKOing either, depending on level ups)

1-4 If Edward critkills a laguz, he opens up the space to get hit again and die. Nolan can also survive tiger/cat combinations unlike Edward so he's a lot better at holding the northern chokepoint.

The start of Part 1 being Edward's weakness is a big problem- because Edward can't get the levels needed for good later performance if he isn't fed kills and the RNG isn't kind with his strength/speed. He's hard to train in any reasonably efficient playthrough.

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15 hours ago, jeigansucksexp said:

bases for a unit's join time is way more valuable than bases for their level

and megs bases are utter trash

Meg's bases are the same as Aran -2 speed.

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14 minutes ago, Sweet_Basil said:

Meg's bases are the same as Aran -2 speed.

And -3 Hp, and -1 Defence, and -5 Skill.

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Umm... she's four levels lower than Aran.

 

Quote

1-2 Nolan can use the Hand Axe to reliably avoid getting doubled. The accuracy isn't perfect (although 70s with True Hit is ok) - but the alternative is Edward getting 2HKOd and not ORKOing anyway (possibly not 2RKOing either, depending on level ups)

1-4 If Edward critkills a laguz, he opens up the space to get hit again and die. Nolan can also survive tiger/cat combinations unlike Edward so he's a lot better at holding the northern chokepoint.

The start of Part 1 being Edward's weakness is a big problem- because Edward can't get the levels needed for good later performance if he isn't fed kills and the RNG isn't kind with his strength/speed. He's hard to train in any reasonably efficient playthrough.

70% hitrate is with good / against biorhytm, though. If Nolan misses several times, and Sothe isn't next to you, this chapter will be problematic.

Edward usually doesn't get 2RKOed by the bronze lance soldiers at least. And the second one brings him to wrath zone. A steel sword crit can kill him.

 

In 1-4 Edward just has to be sent into wrath-zone, and then let him attack with the wind edge. That's why I mentioned, if he can't oneround with a crit. Otherwise unequip him and let him bring in wrath-zone. That's the best strategy to train him in 1-4 and 3-6.

Edited by Eleanor Hume

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8 hours ago, Eleanor Hume said:

Umm... she's four levels lower than Aran.

And you feel the need to mention this why??? It ain't like mentioning it helps Meg's case, because it doesn't.

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If you say that Meg's bases are bad for her joining time, then I'd absolute agree with you.

But if you say this...

13 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

I fail to see what's with this "Meg's bases aren't that bad for her level" bullcrap, because even factoring in her low level, I ain't impressed.

... then I have to say, you're wrong... or you have just a total different view than most others here.

If you really think that 10 base strength and defense (more defense than base Nolan) are bad for a female knight... then well... I'm out of arguments right here.

 

 

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"for a female knight" doesnt make her more useful though.  and nolan isn't going to be at base when she joins 

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8 hours ago, Eleanor Hume said:

In 1-4 Edward just has to be sent into wrath-zone, and then let him attack with the wind edge. That's why I mentioned, if he can't oneround with a crit. Otherwise unequip him and let him bring in wrath-zone. That's the best strategy to train him in 1-4 and 3-6.

sooo edward only gets kills on player phase

which means that his exp growth is still not too fast

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In 1-4 Edward just has to be sent into wrath-zone, and then let him attack with the wind edge. That's why I mentioned, if he can't oneround with a crit. Otherwise unequip him and let him bring in wrath-zone. That's the best strategy to train him in 1-4 and 3-6.

 

In 1-4 pretty much everyone except for Sothe will get the kills in enemy phase because no one except for him can take two tiger hits. Nolan can take a hit by a tiger and cat.

Edward can get kills easier than other units aside of Sothe with beastkiller.

 

Quote

"for a female knight" doesnt make her more useful though.  and nolan isn't going to be at base when she joins

 

The comparison was only brought up that her bases were competitive, if she joined 1-2 chapters earlier.

 

 

 

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12 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

And -3 Hp, and -1 Defence, and -5 Skill.

Not much of a difference here other than -5 skill. It's strange because a few pages ago I made a statement that Boyd was similar to Ike but I was told that he's more similar to Brom, but they're not that similar other than they both don't initially double. However Meg and Aran have very similar bases and both are in the same boat for a while like some of the other unpromoted DB units. The only one getting mauled by every enemy is Fiona, Meg's durability is like everyone elses. Other than the 12spd tiger that 1 rounds her which can be easily dealt with via bexp. She doesn't belong in the same tier as Fiona because she's much closer to units like Aran than Fiona.

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4 hours ago, Eleanor Hume said:

If you say that Meg's bases are bad for her joining time, then I'd absolute agree with you.

But if you say this...

... then I have to say, you're wrong... or you have just a total different view than most others here.

If you really think that 10 base strength and defense (more defense than base Nolan) are bad for a female knight... then well... I'm out of arguments right here.

 

 

We're talking about a knight, of course I'd expect their Strength and Defense to be their best stats.

29 minutes ago, Sweet_Basil said:

Not much of a difference here other than -5 skill. It's strange because a few pages ago I made a statement that Boyd was similar to Ike but I was told that he's more similar to Brom, but they're not that similar other than they both don't initially double. However Meg and Aran have very similar bases and both are in the same boat for a while like some of the other unpromoted DB units. The only one getting mauled by every enemy is Fiona, Meg's durability is like everyone elses. Other than the 12spd tiger that 1 rounds her which can be easily dealt with via bexp. She doesn't belong in the same tier as Fiona because she's much closer to units like Aran than Fiona.

Maybe not, but there is the possibility that Aran gained a level in his join chapter, which I failed to factor in. Anyway, I still ain't convinced she's closer to the likes of Aran than to Fiona when trying to make her usable is a Herculean labor in and of itself.

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Giving it some thought; if Meg actually joined in 1-P or 1-1 (let's say she swapped places with Nolan), she'd probably be high tier. Base Nolan at 1-4 would be around where Aran sits now. That's how crucial availability is for these scrubs.

Can't deny Meg's bases are great for her level (at least if she were to join where her base speed wouldn't get her doubled; and then she actually has time to grow it). 

 

Hilariously enough, if base Fiona joined in 1-1 she'd still be mediocre. That's how bad she is. 

Real talk, I'd rate Meg a 3 -- if only for the fact that the choke-point haven that is 1-4 can greatly help her grow since her base level is so low (she can whack on something 5 times and gain a level on Hard). If turn counts be damned for this one map only... she is salvageable (not exactly a great argument though, but it's definitely a point in her favor rather than her joining a map far less suited for her, like say 1-5). Beyond that she isn't particularly amazing, at least in part 1, but usable enough. Access to Killer/Brave sword is definitely notable and she's no worse a tank than other units going into part 3+. She has a lot more AVO than say, Aran. 

And then statistically she's the best Marshall in the lategame w/ BEXP investment... for whatever that is worth.

Aran's better though. 5-5.5. Leaning on 5. Same as Edward would get if he didn't have 1-P or 1-1 contribution.

Edited by DLuna

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I'm not sure why people keep harping on this "Meg has good bases for her level" stuff. True or not, it doesn't mean anything.

It's honestly kind of shocking to see all this defense in favor of Meg. She never got any help back in the day. Now I'll admit I might have overrated Aran a bit with my 7.5, by like 0.5-1, but he's still pretty far ahead of Meg as I mentioned here. He has a bit of a rough time getting started in hard mode, but he can be a good defensive and hard-hitting crutch come part 3. In normal mode he just blows past Meg with BEXP. The best Meg ever gets is "okay." Going from "pretty bad" to "okay" deserves a pretty low score.

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1 hour ago, DLuna said:

Real talk, I'd rate Meg a 3 -- if only for the fact that the choke-point haven that is 1-4 can greatly help her grow since her base level is so low (she can whack on something 5 times and gain a level on Hard). If turn counts be damned for this one map only... she is salvageable (not exactly a great argument though, but it's definitely a point in her favor rather than her joining a map far less suited for her, like say 1-5). Beyond that she isn't particularly amazing, at least in part 1, but usable enough. Access to Killer/Brave sword is definitely notable and she's no worse a tank than other units going into part 3+. She has a lot more AVO than say, Aran. 

And then statistically she's the best Marshall in the lategame w/ BEXP investment... for whatever that is worth.

I could do that for pretty much anyone, so it ain't like Meg gets any brownie points for that. Also, access to the Killing Edge and Brave Sword might be a point in her favor... If it weren't for the part where killer weapons aren't very good and she has competition for the brave, that is. Her avoid really ain't very helpful in part 3 thanks to laguz, aka the kinds of enemies that evade is likely to fail you against.

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24 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

I could do that for pretty much anyone, so it ain't like Meg gets any brownie points for that. Also, access to the Killing Edge and Brave Sword might be a point in her favor... If it weren't for the part where killer weapons aren't very good and she has competition for the brave, that is. Her avoid really ain't very helpful in part 3 thanks to laguz, aka the kinds of enemies that evade is likely to fail you against.

Not sure what point you're trying to make. I'm only listing her good/redeeming aspects. Just because a unit is bad doesn't mean they cannot have those. 

Not everything is black or white either. Yes, she does have competition for say, The Brave Sword. But it's definitely a point in her favor that it exists than it not existing (Unlike say, Aran who doesn't have a Brave Lance). Same could be said for Edward (competing with Zihark).

With an earth support Meg has 85 AVO (which is one of the highest AVOs out of all the DB aside from earth/earth possibilities) which means Tigers have 37% true hit against her. That's fairly respectable. And her 20 SPD at 20/1 means she's doubling them. And with the "not so good" Killing Edge, a very high chance of 1RKOing.

Quote

I could do that for pretty much anyone, so it ain't like Meg gets any brownie points for that.

Her base level is low enough that's it's noticeably faster and she benefits the most from it to escape her base speed. And the fact that she exists at this time as opposed to units joining later on. It's a point in Aran's favor as well for the same reasons as her.

Again, I never said it's a huge benefit but is one nonetheless. I'm justify her as a 3, not a 6.

In any case, she's no where near as bad as Fiona or Lyre. You can actually use Meg without it being a huge detriment. It's just not that efficient.

Her movement is an obvious problem as well. That's a primary reason why she's quite a bit lower than Aran, base speed aside.

Edited by DLuna

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Meg's bases aren't good for her level. Or an Armor Knight, the worst class in FE10 (or close to).

If anything, it shows that her base level is bad. She's so far from promotion and she's never getting to it because she's got awful movement and bad stats.

And those stats aren't getting fixed with BEXP because of her growths.

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25 minutes ago, DLuna said:

Not sure what point you're trying to make. I'm only listing her good/redeeming aspects. Just because a unit is bad doesn't mean they cannot have those. 

Not everything is black or white either. Yes, she does have competition for say, The Brave Sword. But it's definitely a point in her favor that it exists than it not existing (Unlike say, Aran who doesn't have a Brave Lance). Same could be said for Edward (competing with Zihark).

With an earth support Meg has 85 AVO which means Tigers have 37% true hit against her. That's fairly respectable. And her 20 SPD at 20/1 means she's doubling them. And with the "not so good" Killing Edge, a very high chance of 1RKOing.

Her base level is low enough that's it's noticeably faster and she benefits the most from it to escape her base speed. And the fact that she exists at this time as opposed to units joining later on. It's a point in Aran's favor as well for the same reasons as her.

Again, I never said it's a huge benefit but is one nonetheless. I'm justify her as a 3, not a 6.

I don't see what "redeeming aspects" Meg has, because she's screwed over by her bases, growths, and class.

Sure, she might be able to make use of it, but I'm not seeing why I should give it to her over Edward or Zihark.

That's assuming (1) someone even wants to support Meg, whose Heaven affinity isn't helping anyone, and (2) that she's somehow promoting before part 1 ends, which I'm not seeing happening between her bad bases, her awkward growths, her bad movement, and the fact that she has the dubious honor of being the one unit who's farthest from promotion. Also, 3-6 isn't the type of chapter I'd want to fish for critical hits in (never mind that fishing for critical hits is a subpar strategy in RD thanks to sky high enemy luck).

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1 hour ago, Ema Skye said:

Meg's bases aren't good for her level.

Her base HP is the only thing that's a little low. Everything else is objectively more or the same than a generic LV3 armor.

Not that that's relevant -- an above average level 3 unit in 1-4 is bad and it's why Meg is bad. But that's not really the point I was trying to make, nor a contested point that even matters. (But going by her bases, if Meg joined in 1-1 she'd basically be Nolan but with less HP and 6 levels lower).

It does mean though that she gets increased EXP gain, and more levels to grow relative to others. Which is counteracted by weird growths, granted (albeit better promo gains than others). She doesn't start performing objectively well until 1-E at the very earliest. Which is still far more than what can be said for someone like Fiona. 

Quote

I don't see what "redeeming aspects" Meg has, because she's screwed over by her bases, growths, and class.

By that logic, her having no "redeeming aspects" would mean that she's similar as Fiona (who barely has anything going for her). But she isn't.

I get the impression you're judging aspects of a unit rather binary. No, Meg's bases are not good, but they're not so terrible that she's not usable.

The bottom line is that Meg's opportunity cost is very high -- and that does her no favors. She isn't getting any higher than a 3. Yet, compared to Fiona or Lyre, her opportunity cost a whole lot lower than them, to the point where on a grading scale, 2.5-3 is completely accurate if they're, say a 1. 

 

"Redeeming qualities" are few and far between (good early weaponry, not awful availability, high AVO, high RES, good lategame etc...) compared to her bad aspects (so many to list) but to say they don't exist is a bit silly.

And supports? If you're playing hard mode then forget using more than 3-4 tier 1 units. So someone's gotta make do and support her regardless (again, you have to judge a unit based on the circumstance you are using them over others and rate them based on how good that is -- that's how a tier list works?). Heaven affinity isn't doing them any favours but at least they benefit off their own affinity and so does Meg. If Zihark supports with her, he's still getting AVO from his own earth support. (Guaranteed 100% hit rates isn't completely useless either. At least with weaponry like Storm Sword, Tempest Blade, Steel Blades etc... Or Nolan/Jill in general can appreciate it to some degree, especially with hand axes).

Edited by DLuna

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