FE10 Tierlist 2017

[Junkhead]

Literally, what I did. Thats how you milk any first-tier in that chapter, and Edward and Wrath Micaiah make the most out of it, there.

[Shadow Mir]

35 minutes ago, Sweet_Basil said:

Done on turn 1.
Turn 2 climb the ledge.
Turn 3 milk the experience from the other ledge until the end of the map.

Her movement issues are more apparent on other maps though I agree with that.

You mean those positions that always get occupied by someone else because there's a quartet of Myrmidons and fighters that need to meet death before I ascend? They aren't gonna drop dead just by staring hard at them, you know. Also, I don't use Sothe to clear that area, which might have something to do with the Master Seal that's stealable.

Edited January 28, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Sweet_Basil]

20 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

You mean those positions that always get occupied by someone else because there's a quartet of Myrmidons and fighters that need to meet death before I ascend? They aren't gonna drop dead just by staring hard at them, you know. Also, I don't use Sothe to clear that area, which might have something to do with the Master Seal that's stealable.

Yes and here's what I do, for example.

1. Micaiah chips the Myrmidon that's next to the ledge, Meg kills him.
2. Sothe ascends the ledge.
3. Ilyana chips the other Myrmidon, Aran kills him.
4. Leon, Edward, and Nolan chip the lower fighter.
5. Volug kills the other fighter.
6. The lower fighter is trapped between Volug, Meg, Nolan, and Aran so he dies on one of them in ep.
7. The mage targets Volug.

Turn 2-6 -> They (Meg/Nolan) climb the ledge on turn 2 and I have Sothe go down to go steal the Seal. Volug gets rid of the guy with the hand axe. The rest of the people climb the ledge with Laura/Micaiah being priority because I have them on healing duty. 

[Junkhead]

25 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

You mean those positions that always get occupied by someone else 

X character is bad because Y character should be occupying said space.

Einstein logic. 

[Shadow Mir]

4 minutes ago, Soul~! said:

X character is bad because Y character should be occupying said space.

Einstein logic. 

 

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Yeah, because I can afford to have that space occupied by someone who's ineffective at fighting (and needs a wind edge to attack from range, never mind that wind edges are pretty pathetic weapons)...

[Junkhead]

And I can afford to carry someone who's mobility is, apparently, "too little", without it being any hastle in relation to the team.

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

16 minutes ago, Sweet_Basil said:

Yes and here's what I do, for example.

1. Micaiah chips the Myrmidon that's next to the ledge, Meg kills him.
2. Sothe ascends the ledge.
3. Ilyana chips the other Myrmidon, Aran kills him.
4. Leon, Edward, and Nolan chip the lower fighter.
5. Volug kills the other fighter.
6. The lower fighter is trapped between Volug, Meg, Nolan, and Aran so he dies on one of them in ep.
7. The mage targets Volug.

Turn 2-6 -> They (Meg/Nolan) climb the ledge on turn 2 and I have Sothe go down to go steal the Seal. Volug gets rid of the guy with the hand axe. The rest of the people climb the ledge with Laura/Micaiah being priority because I have them on healing duty. 

In the first turn you can take out all the opponents including the mage with sending Sothe on the ledge.

• Edward onerounds the faster myrm next to the ledge.
• Leonardo and Nolan kill one of the fighters.
• Micaiah and Aran kill one of the fighters.
• Ilyana and Meg (probably with a forged) sword kill the left myrm. (yeah, I give Meg a kill in HM O.O)
• Volug onerounds the mage.

Edited January 28, 2017 by Eleanor Hume

[Sweet_Basil]

5 minutes ago, Eleanor Hume said:

In the first turn you can take out all the opponents including the mage with sending Sothe on the ledge.

• Edward onerounds the faster myrm next to the ledge.
• Leonardo and Nolan kill one of the fighters.
• Micaiah and Aran kill one of the fighters.
• Ilyana and Meg (probably with a forged) sword kill the left myrm. (yeah, I give Meg a kill in HM O.O)
• Volug onerounds the mage.

Your Edward must be really fast to beat that myrm on his own.

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

Edward usually has 18-19 speed (because I feed him with kills in the 1-4) and the myrm has 14-15 AS.

Quote

Javelin's may not be ideal but a) they're forgeable later on and b) they're still better than Wind Edges.

Javelins with their 65 accurary are still pretty bleh.

Leo isn't even comparable and I don't know why you're forcing this comparison. Aran is a melee unit first and foremost, while leaving Leo on the front lines is just begging for him to get killed.

Leo is pretty much the only real range weapon user in 3-6 and 3-13 and you have some good melee weapon users already with Nolan, Sothe, Volug, Jill and maybe Zihark and Edward.

If we're worried about single digit crit on a unit, I feel like there are better things to worry about. Most of our units are facing single digit crit in this chapter. It's not a big deal.

Ok, fair point since his crit problem will last only for this chapter probably. I have to admit I overrestimated a bit right here.

If not having a personal weapon in Part 3 makes a unit bad (which it shouldn't), then you should be penalizing the rest of the DB for it, including Jill.

Brave axe is a thing for Jill, and Nolan gets Tarvos. The game isn't nice to lance users of the DB.

You're overblowing the speed problem. Even if he does get doubled, he's still taking decently low damage because his defense is so high. Comparing 20/3 Aran and 20/3 Meg in 3-6 here:

Meg: 35 HP/18 Str/5 Mag/15 Skl/21 Spe/20 Lck/18 Def/13 Res

Aran: 33 HP/22 Str/3 Mag/22 Skl/16 Spe/11 Lck/22 Def/7 Res

Tigers range from 16 to 18 AS in 3-6 and have between 32 and 41 Attack. So Aran takes 10 to 19 damage. Meg takes 14 to 23 damage.

Cats range from 20 to 22 AS and have 22 to 29 Attack. Aran gets doubled and takes between 0 and 14 damage. Meg takes 4 to 11 damage. So while Aran is doubled here, he's still, on average, taking less damage than Meg.

I feel like we've established at this point that Meg only gets good (relatively speaking) if we're babying her.

HM isn't made to train several units from a team with really tough enemies, especially if the unit joins underleveled at this point and only turns out pretty average as Aran does. His stats don't impress me at all and don't justify for me to get used in this difficulty. Sure, he needs by far less babying than Meg, but it doesn't make him much more usable than her either. And seriously his joining time (=> base speed) is the only reason, why he can be trained with less effort than Meg.

Also I haven't seen any A strike generic tigers in part 3 in HM yet. I only know about 2-3 cats with A strike in 3-6.

Edited January 28, 2017 by Eleanor Hume

[Shadow Mir]

1 hour ago, Soul~! said:

And I can afford to carry someone who's mobility is, apparently, "too little", without it being any hastle in relation to the team.

Well, you're gonna have to excuse me for having no patience for Knights that play (and grow) more like myrmidons.

Edited January 28, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia

[ping]

That's an argument I never quite understood. Who cares if some character's stats are fitting for their class? Sure, Meg is hindered by her class (because movement and bad caps), but if you just looked at her stats at a given level (before she caps speed as a general...), Meg's stats are quite good. It's her rather bad joining situation and the low payoff if you do invest into her that make her bad in my eyes, not some weird ideal how proper knight stats should look.

That said, I stand by my low score for Meg. There are a few posts here that show that she can be raised into something useful and I agree that she's not hopeless, but still - is a pampered Meg better than other units that received the same amount of TLC? It's a point in favour of Radiant Dawn that every character is usable, but for the sake of a tierlist, it's not just the question if a unit can perform at all, but how it performs compared to the rest of the cast. And I'm still not convinced that Meg can do as good as any other DB unit (except Fiona) when treated similarly.

Same about Sanaki, actually, @Soul. Sure, it's possible to train her up in her two chapters before the tower, and since she's forced, you might as well, but I still don't think she does as good as regular sages in 4-E. Sure, she has a higher Mag cap, but she's still more frail, her low strength is an issue and she can't use staves. So yeah, I still think she's low tier - it's just that RD gives the player tools to work even with low tier units.

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

The difference about Sanaki is that she's forced, and you want to have as much as attack power as possible in the endgame.

Her low strength doesn't really matter when you have Ena and later Gareth.

In the endgame you might need like two stave users. It's not really the purpose to bring arch sages only to let them use staves. They're here to use all the SS weapons to lowturn Ashera. In the endgame you're good enough with Micky, Elincia and maybe Mist (if she should turn out into sth.) as stave users.

Edited January 28, 2017 by Eleanor Hume

[ping]

2 minutes ago, Eleanor Hume said:

Her low strength doesn't really matter when you have Ena and later Gareth.

It does because she still needs the Ena+Nasir spot for herself to double Auras, unlike Calill and Tormod (not saying he's a strong choice, opportunity cost etc.) who only need Nasir.

And I don't see forced deployment as a plus for a character. It's an incentive to train them, but it doesn't make the characters themselves better. I try to rate how a unit is doing if it's used anyway, so it's not a factor in this matter whether the game forces me to or not.

 

[Shadow Mir]

13 hours ago, Soul~! said:

Resolve+Daunt

Boom.

inb4buttomeweight just get her a lightly-forged tome

inb4butmoney, money issues in Part 4? Get real.

inb4buteverybodywantsresolve, theres two fucking Resolve and everybodys too fucking good to want/need it

 

I have little issue with Sanaki, personally, but I *really* have issue with relying on Resolve on a unit who WILL be one unlucky hit away from death (and in this case, a game over) once she's in Resolve zone... And personally, I don't give a damn about tome weight when Cymbeline hits like a nuke.

6 hours ago, Eleanor Hume said:

The difference about Sanaki is that she's forced, and you want to have as much as attack power as possible in the endgame.

Her low strength doesn't really matter when you have Ena and later Gareth.

In the endgame you might need like two stave users. It's not really the purpose to bring arch sages only to let them use staves. They're here to use all the SS weapons to lowturn Ashera. In the endgame you're good enough with Micky, Elincia and maybe Mist (if she should turn out into sth.) as stave users.

And you don't see a problem with having to have Sanaki hog a space adjacent to all three dragons just to get around her strength woes? 

Also, I don't see forced deployment as a plus for a character, else I wouldn't have given Ranulf a low score.

7 hours ago, ping said:

That's an argument I never quite understood. Who cares if some character's stats are fitting for their class? Sure, Meg is hindered by her class (because movement and bad caps), but if you just looked at her stats at a given level (before she caps speed as a general...), Meg's stats are quite good. It's her rather bad joining situation and the low payoff if you do invest into her that make her bad in my eyes, not some weird ideal how proper knight stats should look.

That said, I stand by my low score for Meg. There are a few posts here that show that she can be raised into something useful and I agree that she's not hopeless, but still - is a pampered Meg better than other units that received the same amount of TLC? It's a point in favour of Radiant Dawn that every character is usable, but for the sake of a tierlist, it's not just the question if a unit can perform at all, but how it performs compared to the rest of the cast. And I'm still not convinced that Meg can do as good as any other DB unit (except Fiona) when treated similarly.

Same about Sanaki, actually, @Soul. Sure, it's possible to train her up in her two chapters before the tower, and since she's forced, you might as well, but I still don't think she does as good as regular sages in 4-E. Sure, she has a higher Mag cap, but she's still more frail, her low strength is an issue and she can't use staves. So yeah, I still think she's low tier - it's just that RD gives the player tools to work even with low tier units.

Far as I'm concerned, Meg has enough going against her even without her awkward stat spread hindering her. It basically makes her have the weaknesses of both a knight and a myrmidon, and the strengths of neither. Her usability is compromised as a result.

Edited January 28, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Radiant head]

6 hours ago, ping said:

And I don't see forced deployment as a plus for a character. It's an incentive to train them, but it doesn't make the characters themselves better. I try to rate how a unit is doing if it's used anyway, so it's not a factor in this matter whether the game forces me to or not.

 

it means she's not taking a slot away from 10 better characters for deployment.  

i would say that incentive for training her is already more incentive than there is to train someone like tormod

Edited January 28, 2017 by Radiant head

[Vaximillian]

Can you forge to decrease weight? If so, can you forge Cymbeline?

[Shadow Mir]

5 minutes ago, Vaximillian said:

Can you forge to decrease weight? If so, can you forge Cymbeline?

Yes, and no. Forging in this game creates an entirely new weapon, as opposed to Shadow Dragon through Awakening, where it modified a weapon you already had.

[Augestein]

2 hours ago, Radiant head said:

it means she's not taking a slot away from 10 better characters for deployment.  

i would say that incentive for training her is already more incentive than there is to train someone like tormod

I wouldn't, on the account that she's not actually forced deployed. It's the same thing with Sothe, their presence there isn't really so much of a boon as it is a hindrance if you don't raise them in time. At least Sanaki can not get attacked by spirits and does have an okay offense if raised though. Even then, after you fight passed the dragons, you get 2 more people to deploy, and I'd rather use Gareth and Nasir over Sanaki. Generally speaking I drop those two in favor of the dragons to be honest. So for me, unless I'm specifically going to use Sanaki, I'd rather just make units I plan to take to the tower a little bit stronger and just be down 1 unit for the first 3 parts. 

 

Quote

That's an argument I never quite understood. Who cares if some character's stats are fitting for their class? Sure, Meg is hindered by her class (because movement and bad caps), but if you just looked at her stats at a given level (before she caps speed as a general...), Meg's stats are quite good. It's her rather bad joining situation and the low payoff if you do invest into her that make her bad in my eyes, not some weird ideal how proper knight stats should look.

 

The issue is that in this game, units actually have stat caps appropriate for their class. It's not like the GBA ones where unpromoted everyone was 20 stats unpromoted and then specialized ones after they promoted, Meg's caps and to a certain extent class keep her from truly being as good as she could be. To put this into perspective, let's turn her into a Pegasus Knight.

At tier 1, nothing of hers caps outside of defense at 15, and Meg manages to have around 13 or 14 resistance instead of being locked at 10. Being capped at 15 defense sounds pretty lame, until you realize that normally she'd have a whopping... 15 or 16 defense anyways. So essentially, a Meg as a Pegasus Knight would have the same stats as Armor Knight Meg, but have +3 or 4 res. Nothing special... Yet, but let's go with tier 2. 

Since promotional gains don't exist for Pegasus Knight (that I know of), I'll be nice and give her the exact same bonuses, which makes this easier to see anyways. 

PKM - Will normally gain about 6 defense as a pegasus knight with her growths. That + promotion gains actually hits the Falcon Knight cap of defense 22. Easily. But what's better here, is that Meg is no longer stuck at her 22 speed cap like she is as an armor knight. With 20 speed + 75% speed growth? She's easily capping her 27 speed. Pretty early at that too. She'll have some space to BEXP because of speed and defense being capped mid Tier 2. Later on, she'd cap hp for even more reliable BEXP to be stronger. So Pegasus Knight Meg would have -4 hp, +5 speed, - 0 defense, + 5 res in comparison if we ignore BEXP abuse.  The rest of the stats are exactly the same because she doesn't cap anything else. 

Tier 3 gets even worse. Meg easily caps her hp once again, and has higher stats to boot because she didn't cap ram the other stats so early and still has time to grow. It's a pretty fair argument in this case, because Meg's stupid caps with her weird growths cause her to be Aran-. Rather than better than him. Basically if she had been almost ANY physical class outside of an Armor Knight she'd be okay. As it stands, she is constantly being screwed over by her class at every given point. 

 

 

Edited January 28, 2017 by Augestein

[ping]

2 hours ago, Radiant head said:

it means she's not taking a slot away from 10 better characters for deployment.  

i would say that incentive for training her is already more incentive than there is to train someone like tormod

Or she blockes a spot that could have been open for better characters. ;)

But seriously, I get the argument and if this was a new player asking for advise, my answer would be exactly that (i.e. if you want a fire mage in the endgame, the game screams at you to use Sanaki, even though she got the inferior batch of numbers). But I don't see this tier list as a guide which unit to use and more as an assessment how well a unit will do if fielded. It's a similar reasoning as for why I don't count recruitment cost (and bonuses you get just for recruiting a character, no matter if you field them or not. For example the Vague Katti Stefan brings with him) into this - I just assume a full recruitment run. For the sake of tiering, I assume that the unit is fielded, and I try to base my scores on how much investment it takes to get how much use out of the unit.

[Radiant head]

Just now, ping said:

Or she blockes a spot that could have been open for better characters.

yeah, but that's a counterfactual. 

i guess criteria is subjective here, but my thinking here is that you can train the hell out of calil (or even tormod i guess if you plan the oliver chapter carefully), but at the end of the day mages will their bad durability, speed, and movement will always be suboptimal to deploy in endgame.  you can ignore them and still have a fire mage in the tower. 

[ping]

I wasn't actually using that as a serious argument. It's really just about what I count into the opportunity cost of using a character - and since I assume an honest attempt of the player to make use of the character in question, blocking a character slot isn't part of it.

How well does Sanaki perform in the tower if she gets no or just one or two levels before 4-E anyway? I honestly never tried that - if I wanted to use her, I would feed her as much XP as reasonably possible and if I didn't, I just wouldn't field her at all in the tower.

And yeah, sages suck pretty bad in 4-E, and iirc I gave most, if not all, of them less than 5 points. I just keep bringing up Calill and Tormod because they're the other potential Rexflame users (and if this was solely based on part 4, I would rate Tormod even lower than Sanaki).

[Sweet_Basil]

I think Calill is the only sage in this game that is good enough or better than Sanaki for endgame, at least in hard mode. Ilyana/Soren are stuck with a 35% speed growth and are forever squishy, the others don't get to use Rexflame, or in Tormod's case he comes too late.

[Junkhead]

Sanaki's actually pretty good when she exists. Yes, this includes 80% of the Tower.

[Ema Skye]

And the 80% of the tower is also half of her availability.

She's not bad on the desert if you throw Resolve on her. 

[-Cynthia-]

11 hours ago, ping said:

How well does Sanaki perform in the tower if she gets no or just one or two levels before 4-E anyway? I honestly never tried that - if I wanted to use her, I would feed her as much XP as reasonably possible and if I didn't, I just wouldn't field her at all in the tower.

 

Sanaki can't double any of the non-dragons in 4-E so her offense is pretty bad and physical durability is bad as well. She can't ORKO White Dragons (without a crit or skill activation) and Red Dragons OHKO her on the counter. She can siege tome Levail to get the Wishblade, but she's not very good without training and she has a limited window and bad bases (sans Magic/Res) to do this.

Edited January 29, 2017 by -Cynthia-