FE10 Tierlist 2017

[Augestein]

3 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Once again, I'd care if they were actually useful, but as is, you're just grasping at straws. I find it hard to see Arms Scrolls as worth using when most people start with high weapon ranks and/or only use one weapon type. That's why I sell them.

What's the point of selling them if you don't need the money though? It's not grasping at straws. It's something that can actually be used on a unit. I have never understood this about the Fire Emblem community and insisting there's only one way to do things. It's a viable option for a unit, and it may not be great, but it's still an option. 

[Dunal]

1 hour ago, Augestein said:

What's the point of selling them if you don't need the money though? It's not grasping at straws. It's something that can actually be used on a unit. I have never understood this about the Fire Emblem community and insisting there's only one way to do things. It's a viable option for a unit, and it may not be great, but it's still an option. 

On a similar note, the whole "I can't give X to someone because I need/want to use it on someone else" is a bad argument for the same reason. And in these discussions I've seen a huge amount of contradiction as to how a few certain people view this (units that they like get dibs on anything they want -- others units, when used, don't get that some luxury).

Basically anything that exists in favor of a unit that they can potentially use, should be considered. To an extent.

Same could be said for the opposite scenario. I generally think needing to pump a ton of resources into Jill to reach her potential is a point against her, even if she's still really really good without most of those. I don't think anyone should assume she's given all of them and then rate them (and other units) based on that. A point should be made that she makes better use of them than most other units (which is definitely a point in her favor) but let's say in the circumstance you do not deploy her or use her overly much (gasp) units like Aran/Meg would definitely get extra opportunity to acquire additional resources that Jill would be given instead. So it's mostly fair to just rate units on either getting most resources, or not many at all. So Poor!Jill should be compared to Poor!Aran which Rich!Jill should be compared to Rich!Aran. Skewing this then becomes a matter of win more / lose more. 

(I mean, Jill is still a ~9 or so, but the point is that she shouldn't be given higher just because we assume she's getting more than her fair share of resources).

I think that in a lot of these debates, people's logic on this differs greatly to the point where it's difficult to make a general evaluation on a unit. One person may be arguing on the basis that X is given to a unit where the other person disagrees that they even should get X to begin with. Which is completely outside of discussing units, but becomes a debate about how to debate units instead.

And even then, it's not even all black/white or even something we can completely figure out because opportunity costs and overall value are hard to measure unless you do a ton of number crunching. Going back to the while 'setting arms scroll' debate, this is one of them.

(Granted, some cases are obvious (Jill w/ speedwing can potentially be a good boon to her; Fiona w/ speedwing does nothing because it's not like she's doubling with it or anything). But that goes without saying)

Edited February 1, 2017 by DLuna

[Junkhead]

Theres a shitton of money to go around Part 4 youre just adding extra excuses

Nosferatu only adds to her effectiveness, and I never realised it. Liek, yeah, she loses 5 AS, but what does it matter when shes getting an extra 11 AS which is literally like 1 AS from double in 4-3, even

And lol no why would you give her Paragon at 4-P. She loses effectiveness as an actual combat unit she can right off the bat by just using Resolve. Hell, by the pace shes killing shit, she gains levels really quickly. I got her to at least lvl 10 by the end of it in a freaking lowturn run. If I can do that, theres literally no excuse.

[Shadow Mir]

3 hours ago, Eleanor Hume said:

If you don't need an arms scroll, so much better for you.

Then I don't really understand, why you're complaining that others - who have obviously an other playstyle than you - need them.

Also you can't upgrade a weapon rank just by attacking five times, even with discipline. In Sanaki's case it would take too long till she can use nosferatu. You want to make use of this combination (nosferatu, resolve and flare) at once, and not when almost all the enemies are defeated.

Not even - Shine gives 4 WEXP per use, and Sanaki starts with A rank in light.

3 hours ago, Augestein said:

What's the point of selling them if you don't need the money though? It's not grasping at straws. It's something that can actually be used on a unit. I have never understood this about the Fire Emblem community and insisting there's only one way to do things. It's a viable option for a unit, and it may not be great, but it's still an option. 

It is to me since it ain't like we're taking about FE6, where weapon ranks rose at a glacial pace. Also, none of his examples were even decent ones (Matrona?? Really???).

46 minutes ago, Soul~! said:

Theres a shitton of money to go around Part 4 youre just adding extra excuses

Nosferatu only adds to her effectiveness, and I never realised it. Liek, yeah, she loses 5 AS, but what does it matter when shes getting an extra 11 AS which is literally like 1 AS from double in 4-3, even

And lol no why would you give her Paragon at 4-P. She loses effectiveness as an actual combat unit she can right off the bat by just using Resolve. Hell, by the pace shes killing shit, she gains levels really quickly. I got her to at least lvl 10 by the end of it in a freaking lowturn run. If I can do that, theres literally no excuse.

Excuses, schmexcuses. I'd have better luck trying to find a needle in a haystack than trying to find a situation where arms scrolls are legitimately useful.

[Junkhead]

Can you just admit you're extremely biased and that it's not an actual arguement?

[Shadow Mir]

3 minutes ago, Soul~! said:

Can you just admit you're extremely biased and that it's not an actual arguement?

You already know the answer to that: N-O W-A-Y!

[Dunal]

30 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Excuses, schmexcuses. I'd have better luck trying to find a needle in a haystack than trying to find a situation where arms scrolls are legitimately useful.

TBH, I'm not sure what you're trying to argue here either.

You say that Arm Scrolls are not useful at all. But the whole point of the discussion is... using one to make a unit more useful. 

It's like saying "This money is useless to me because I'm already rich. I could give it to charity... but eh, they don't affect me (in this case, your playstyle) so I'll just toss it." You get literally 5 of them throughout the game as hidden treasure. One of which is late part 3 which is around the time you start not needing money. There is no sacrifice to this investment in Sanaki.

I don't think she's that great, mind you. But it's a point in her favour nonetheless -- and she's forced so might as well try to do something with her.

From what I can see, your mentality is "either this unit is good/great or they're bad and not worth bothering with" with no in-between whatsoever (the units that are actually the more interesting part of tier list discussion-- who are not obviously good but not obviously bad/awful either).

Sanaki is best described as mediocre/average sure, but to what degree of that can be debated. Scoffing at any real possibility to provide a case for them isn't promoting worthwhile discussion. I mean, the real debate here is what other units would like an Arm Scroll instead of Sanaki, but you have to provide a case for her in the scenario she is given something as minor as an Arm Scroll, which seems pretty interesting.

Edited February 1, 2017 by DLuna

[Shadow Mir]

1 hour ago, DLuna said:

TBH, I'm not sure what you're trying to argue here either.

You say that Arm Scrolls are not useful at all. But the whole point of the discussion is... using one to make a unit more useful. 

It's like saying "This money is useless to me because I'm already rich. I could give it to charity... but eh, they don't affect me (in this case, your playstyle) so I'll just toss it." You get literally 5 of them throughout the game as hidden treasure. One of which is late part 3 which is around the time you start not needing money. There is no sacrifice to this investment in Sanaki.

I don't think she's that great, mind you. But it's a point in her favour nonetheless -- and she's forced so might as well try to do something with her.

From what I can see, your mentality is "either this unit is good/great or they're bad and not worth bothering with" with no in-between whatsoever (the units that are actually the more interesting part of tier list discussion-- who are not obviously good but not obviously bad/awful either).

Sanaki is best described as mediocre/average sure, but to what degree of that can be debated. Scoffing at any real possibility to provide a case for them isn't promoting worthwhile discussion. I mean, the real debate here is what other units would like an Arm Scroll instead of Sanaki, but you have to provide a case for her in the scenario she is given something as minor as an Arm Scroll, which seems pretty interesting.

As I see it, even Goddess icons are more useful than Arms Scrolls, and you oft see people talk about those being useless to the point they recommend selling them.  Also, you get seven Arms Scrolls as hidden treasures. (2 in part 1, 2 in part 2, and the rest in part 4)

As far as I'm concerned, I could do better in terms of making use of Sanaki than engaging in a game of Russian Roulette (which is what all those people advocating using Resolve on her are also supporting), especially since if she dies, it's game over. And I don't think I'd consider a gimmick like that even a decent use of an Arms Scroll. 

[Dunal]

19 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

As I see it, even Goddess icons are more useful than Arms Scrolls, and you oft see people talk about those being useless

And I don't think I'd consider a gimmick like that even a decent use of an Arms Scroll. 

These comments kinda contradict eachother. And I don't even understand what your point is with the first statement-- we've already established what it's going to be used for. 

And gold isn't needed when you get some of the later scrolls so "decent use" isn't fully explained here.

Admittedly, resolve is highly contested. But this is really going back the post I made earlier; you don't just automatically assume someone else is getting a resource. Sanaki can be given this recourse as an opportunity cost (as much as anyone else). She does benefit from the opportunity being there than not (and readily available).

We cannot just say "She sucks, so she isn't getting this resource". That is logic many people are going to disagree with; and there's no room for debate in that. Again, this is all going back to what I delved into before.

Edited February 1, 2017 by DLuna

[ping]

1 hour ago, DLuna said:

It's like saying "This money is useless to me because I'm already rich. I could give it to charity... but eh, they don't affect me (in this case, your playstyle) so I'll just toss it." You get literally 5 of them throughout the game as hidden treasure. One of which is late part 3 which is around the time you start not needing money. There is no sacrifice to this investment in Sanaki.

This is an important part of the equation. 4000 gold in the late part 3 isn't the same as it used to be back in the days. Damn inflation, ruining even video games! in part 1 or the very beginning of part 3. [by the way - Goddess Icons should be more useful in RD than they are in other FE games - not for their immediate effect of +2 hit/avoid/dodge, but to hit the Luck cap a bit earlier, making BEXP use more powerful] Anyway, the point is that the arms scroll at that point is a very small investment.

And while I know by now that you're in favour of a very safe playstyle, other players prefer a fast clear with 80% chance of success over a completely waterproof strategy that takes 100 turns per chapter [/hyperbole] to accomplish. Neither of those are wrong or inferior, so if you come to the conclusion that the presented way to use Sanaki is too risky for you, it's not an automatic proof that the strategy is invalid per se. To proof that, you would have to show that Sanaki's risk of death in the given scenario is very high - and by that I don't mean like 10% because again - for quite a few players (including myself) that would still be totally acceptable.

[Ema Skye]

47 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

As far as I'm concerned, I could do better in terms of making use of Sanaki than engaging in a game of Russian Roulette (which is what all those people advocating using Resolve on her are also supporting), especially since if she dies, it's game over. And I don't think I'd consider a gimmick like that even a decent use of an Arms Scroll. 

Enlighten us troglodytes on your Sanaki strategy then, please.

[Dunal]

25 minutes ago, Ema Skye said:

Enlighten us troglodytes on your Sanaki strategy then, please.

They're implying there isn't one. As in, just chip with her prf tome.

Basically, Sanaki isn't a top tier unit so we shouldn't be discussing her, let alone give her anything. Doing so is 'gimmicky'. /s

[Shadow Mir]

40 minutes ago, Ema Skye said:

Enlighten us troglodytes on your Sanaki strategy then, please.

Easy - just use her like any other Mage. She can easily combine with others for kills since Cymbeline hits like a Mack truck.

[Sweet_Basil]

Talking about mages I feel like Soren should drop below to Calill's level. He's got durability issues forever which hurts him to keep up with the rest, and the only thing he's beating her at is availability.  She can chip in for the boss kill in either of her maps and has a much better speed growth, and speed is a more important stat for mages I believe.

[Junkhead]

2 hours ago, DLuna said:

Admittedly, resolve is highly contested.

Trust me, at this point of the game, it's not. And there's also two of them.

29 minutes ago, Sweet_Basil said:

Talking about mages I feel like Soren should drop below to Calill's level. He's got durability issues forever which hurts him to keep up with the rest, and the only thing he's beating her at is availability.  She can chip in for the boss kill in either of her maps and has a much better speed growth, and speed is a more important stat for mages I believe.

Soren's availability allows him to do much more, thanks to his amazing BEXP slowplay ability. If you rush his Exp-gain on the first chapters, he'll cap Skill & Res pretty much instantly. With that in mind, you can bring HP, Spd & Luck up. While there isn't a ton of hope for his Def going up, you ought to give him at least an Angelic Robe (which he can also use to bring up lower stats, possibly Def). If you can do that somewhere around 3-5 & 3-7, he's Beast Mode. Support him with Ike, and that's an awesome +30 Avo/+2 Atk. Resolve makes him a real monster, but it may not even be necessary.

Soren has like 5 chapters in which he can be a badass before Callil can do much, assuming you're giving them similiar amount of attention.

Edited February 1, 2017 by Soul~!

[Ema Skye]

I actually find Calill to be the best mage in the game. Fire is the best type of magic and Rexflame is the best tome in the game. Soren is slow and frail for basically the entire game, and he'll never be a frontliner. Calill's durability is better (not by much, but it's better; it takes Soren 10 levels to match her base durability, and by then she has a massive speed lead) and she's capping speed early. The speed boost from Rexflame makes her the best endgame mage as well.

Though granted, the difference between them is like half a point.

[Junkhead]

Context, bruh. Yeah, she'll cap Spd faster and that's about it. What does that apply to? When, more importantly. Soren can frontline, and I've even had him take on the main frontline. The BEXP thing gives him the edge to be able to do it a lot faster and for when it matters more. With that in mind, Soren would have already been pretty badass before she even gets the chance to. 

[Dunal]

Soren has a lot of maps to be useful and since he's already promoting earlier and will have a level lead, it takes a very long time for Calill's speed advantage to take effect. They both have the same base SPD and Calill gains an additional point of speed over him every 5 levels, based on that fact, it takes a long time for her to gain an advantage.

Assume both units are being used moderately when they actually exist, I don't think Calill is having any real lead until endgame comes around (or possibly 4-5 when she can one round tigers with relative ease). So, yes, she is a better endgame unit, that is true. However, Soren is ranked higher because he has been useful for much longer. 

Durability means nothing when both of them are being 2HKOed for the most part. Small number leads are fairly arbitrary. 

Edited February 1, 2017 by DLuna

[Florete]

4 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

As I see it, even Goddess icons are more useful than Arms Scrolls, and you oft see people talk about those being useless to the point they recommend selling them.  Also, you get seven Arms Scrolls as hidden treasures. (2 in part 1, 2 in part 2, and the rest in part 4)

As far as I'm concerned, I could do better in terms of making use of Sanaki than engaging in a game of Russian Roulette (which is what all those people advocating using Resolve on her are also supporting), especially since if she dies, it's game over. And I don't think I'd consider a gimmick like that even a decent use of an Arms Scroll. 

You're being completely ridiculous. You're making a ton of claims and not backing any of it up. To the idea of Sanaki with Resolve, my initial reaction would actually be to agree with you that it seems unreliable and more likely to get her killed, but that's all you've said whereas the others have actually provided numbers and data in favor of it. Reading these last couple pages, I'm now more inclined to believe Sanaki with Resolve is actually a decent idea.

And Arms Scrolls worse than Goddess Icons? Look, I've always thought Luck was an underrated stat, but +2 Luck definitely pales in comparison to the advantages some characters can get from being able to use new weapons immediately.

[Shadow Mir]

2 hours ago, Florete said:

You're being completely ridiculous. You're making a ton of claims and not backing any of it up. To the idea of Sanaki with Resolve, my initial reaction would actually be to agree with you that it seems unreliable and more likely to get her killed, but that's all you've said whereas the others have actually provided numbers and data in favor of it. Reading these last couple pages, I'm now more inclined to believe Sanaki with Resolve is actually a decent idea.

And Arms Scrolls worse than Goddess Icons? Look, I've always thought Luck was an underrated stat, but +2 Luck definitely pales in comparison to the advantages some characters can get from being able to use new weapons immediately.

I've taken a look at the numbers, and I am none too impressed - most enemy units in 4-P are hovering somewhere around 137 to 147 hit. Sanaki starts at 23 speed, and assuming Resolve rounds down, she has 100 evade (which might be lower depending on the tome she's using). This means she faces 37-47 hit chances for the most part (assuming she isn't weighed down). 

Like who? I've said it before - Radiant Dawn is a game where WExp tends not to be a problem for most units, who either start with high weapon ranks or are locked to one weapon type anyhow. And Discipline is a thing as well. These factors combined mean that Arms Scrolls are gems in disguise, as far as I'm concerned.

Edited February 2, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Florete]

1 hour ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

I've taken a look at the numbers, and I am none too impressed - most enemy units in 4-P are hovering somewhere around 137 to 147 hit. Sanaki starts at 23 speed, and assuming Resolve rounds down, she has 100 evade (which might be lower depending on the tome she's using). This means she faces 37-47 hit chances for the most part (assuming she isn't weighed down). 

Like who? I've said it before - Radiant Dawn is a game where WExp tends not to be a problem for most units, who either start with high weapon ranks or are locked to one weapon type anyhow. And Discipline is a thing as well. These factors combined mean that Arms Scrolls are gems in disguise, as far as I'm concerned.

There you go, some numbers.

Almost anyone who has an alternate weapon on promotion can make decent use of an Arms Scroll to use stronger weapons immediately. I was making a list but it's pretty pointless, anyone who isn't a solo weapon user can probably get help from an Arms Scroll. It's not a huge deal in many cases, but it's not hard to see it as being more valuable than +2 luck. Some examples of stuff I like to do, though, include:
-Getting Micaiah SS Light for Rexaura.
-Getting Ike SS Axes for Tomahawk and Urvan.
-Getting any Archsage a decent staff level.
-Getting Ilyana C Fire for Meteor.

Discipline is cool, but also takes time and skill space.

Wait, what's the actual point of this Arms Scroll discussion? If you think they're just trash, giving one to a unit shouldn't be any issue at all.

Edited February 2, 2017 by Florete

[Baldrick]

Let's assume Sanaki has Resolve/Daunt/Miracle and is 2HKO'd. After she's hit once, in order for the second hit to kill her the following things need to happen:

- Not activate Flare in two attacks (Resolve activates the round you get hit, right?)
With the skill boost, that's 83.5% for each attack

- Not dodge
Worst-case scenario, it's 42% with Daunt

- Not activate Miracle
68%

0.835*0.835*0.42*0.68 = 0.199.

20% maximum. That's not taking into account the possibility of being on a thicket, biorhythm (which could go both ways) or BEXP/booster (she'd likely gain skill/luck, and Books/Icons aren't in high demand). Exactly how reliable that makes it would require more detailed theorycrafting/looking at the map itself.

[Junkhead]

Theory is like how Edward sucks because he can't dodge and gets fucked by Wrath. 

Then you realise you're actually capable of thinking and can choose not to send him at a horde of enemies at base level.

[Augestein]

23 minutes ago, Soul~! said:

Theory is like how Edward sucks because he can't dodge and gets fucked by Wrath. 

Then you realise you're actually capable of thinking and can choose not to send him at a horde of enemies at base level.

Besides, if it's that much of a problem, just put Shade on him earlier on. It... Actually works. And since he isn't OHKOed, you can keep him from dying. I'm glad to see other people give Edward respect too. 

[Shadow Mir]

1 hour ago, Baldrick said:

Let's assume Sanaki has Resolve/Daunt/Miracle and is 2HKO'd. After she's hit once, in order for the second hit to kill her the following things need to happen:

- Not activate Flare in two attacks (Resolve activates the round you get hit, right?)
With the skill boost, that's 83.5% for each attack

- Not dodge
Worst-case scenario, it's 42% with Daunt

- Not activate Miracle
68%

0.835*0.835*0.42*0.68 = 0.199.

20% maximum. That's not taking into account the possibility of being on a thicket, biorhythm (which could go both ways) or BEXP/booster (she'd likely gain skill/luck, and Books/Icons aren't in high demand). Exactly how reliable that makes it would require more detailed theorycrafting/looking at the map itself.

Slight problem: She can't fit all three of those skills at once (the combination takes up 30 capacity), and on top of that, there's only one Miracle scroll at that point (which happens to start on Mist).

37 minutes ago, Soul~! said:

Theory is like how Edward sucks because he can't dodge and gets fucked by Wrath. 

Then you realise you're actually capable of thinking and can choose not to send him at a horde of enemies at base level.

The thing is, his ranged options suck. Relying on a 60 hit/6 mt weapon for range is far from ideal.

Edited February 2, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia