Video Tharja: How Awakening Made a Good, Bad Character. [Fire Emblem: Support Science #14]

[Dragrath]

21 hours ago, Extrasolar said:

Seriously. There must have been some serious disconnect there. Were the support-writing department and story-writing department not talking to each other or something? Seems like something the director should have ironed out before the game shipped...

Yeah it isn't the only place in the game where there is a huge disconnect so sadly I get the feeling that there indeed were parts not in communication or something... (At the very least the story was a rushed afterthought written with no oversight or quality control to rush fates out for some deadline...

I mean especially once you look at revelations it seems lie the game was exceedingly disjointed as if they really did just things near the end to try and meet deadlines such that quality control and consistency were lacking entirely...

[Slumber]

It's funny, because Xander is one of the few characters to truly benefit from being able to support with nearly every character in the Awakening/Fates way of doing supports. You see many facets of his personality, and they're all pretty fleshed out. And, being the next in line for the Nohrian throne, it actually makes sense that a ton of characters would have a lot to say to him, and have reasons to support with him.

And then he's also one of the few characters who becomes completely irredeemable through the story of the main plot. It's like IS knew that they were on the cusp of writing a really well rounded character, and then just went "Nope".

Edited March 23, 2017 by Slumber

[ghast]

Part 2 is here :)

 

[Augestein]

For Chapter 18, the only thing I can think of is that people of Nohr would find the act dishonorable to the point that they might actually use that as fuel to continue waging war against Nohr itself-- ie, all of the rebellions that were talked about in the plot-- two of which the player themselves have to subdue. The first being the Ice Tribe, and the second being Cheve. By having enough dirt on Nohr, it might still be enough to insight infighting I'd wager. However, it's also debatable that this wasn't even a thought that occurred to the writers. For Chapter 18, you could channel your inner Corrin and capture ALL of the soldiers so they don't die. 

As for Kotaro, I have no idea. I honestly have nothing on that. With the only rationale I can offer is that he wants to maintain a clean war so that enemies are less likely to deploy the same tactics that old Nohr would. However, this is a bit contradictory to support Xander that doesn't seem to hold this almost indefinable honor system that Xander seems to follow.  

Really the only argument that could be made is that Xander is attempting to think of a long run path rather than simply the easiest road traveled for a quick victory, but nothing really addresses this with storyline Xander. We don't get an actual reason why, but rather just "honor" which is a sentiment which varies based on individuals. And as you pointed out, the 3 different Xanders in the story. 

[maybe]

i have barely played fates and I don't actually know too much about its story, but this video was pretty interesting regardless

i look forward to the one about eliwood, he's definitely my favorite lord and I'd love to see someone actually talk about him 

most of the reason I like him is in the story though so it'll be interesting to see you go deeper into his supports

oh yeah your timing was pretty on point too with xander just coming out in heroes I can admire that

Edited May 4, 2017 by unique

[ghast]

Eliwood!

Worked pretty hard on this one! Blazing Sword/Eliwood/Hector/Ninian fans rejoice!

 

 

[Interdimensional Observer]

Eliwood is good enough as a character. I like that he isn't a god of war, (well in FE7, apparently he got better in old age and Hector worse). He's gentle like many a FE lord, but is suggested to have some knack for politics and diplomacy, even if we don't see too much of it.

I don't like Ninian as his wife (plus the whole "she won't live long" thing is a load of convenient BS that contradicts Arcadia). Fiora is a soldierly Ninian sister-clone, so I don't care much for her either. Lyn is the only woman who works for him.

The Hector support is good to start, and ends decently with an okay blend of FE6 referencing and originality. But the B is as someone else pointed out just a big FE6 reference that does nothing to really develop Hector and Eliwood.

Harken is dull, though Marcus and Lowen aren't too shabby.

[Shoblongoo]

Love listening to these, Ghast. 

I drive an hour and back each day to get to my apartment from work—always looking for good content to listen to for the drive—and the days you upload new stuff are days when I know my drive isn’t going to suck. Sooooo yeah; thanks for that.

I don’t have the technical know-how to hack and make my own games (sidenote—bloodlines kicks ass. Know its massively time consuming and you do it for free, so I can’t really bitch, but I do hope at some point you’re gonna get back to putting out new chapters). But I do write fanfiction. Fire Emblem FanFiction. Specifically a lot with FE7. Which requires extensive thought not just as to how the characters are represented in their in-game dialogue and portrayals, but also:

1) What we can extrapolate therefrom. That is to say—based on what the characters do and how they act in the scenarios that the games put them in—how can we expect them to act in other scenarios. Scenarios of our own making.

2) What backstory not presented in the canon can explain why characters act the way they act? 
 

3) What tweaks can be made to characters that are presented poorly in the canon to make them more enjoyable, engaging characters?

…so we think about a lot of the same things when we look at supports and the like, and try to deconstruct them. And I gotta say—you always bring a lot of really strong, on-point insights to the table. Its obvious that you’ve put a lot of thought into this and you take your characterizations very seriously. And you have a damn good time doing it!

I respect that.

Eliwood is a character I’ve  worked with before and have a lot of fun with.

Very eager to see what you did with him.

Leaving the office now—going to pop this on as soon as I hit the road.

Rock on bro.

-Some Guy From New Jersey-

Edited May 17, 2017 by Shoblongoo

[maybe]

this was a really nice video! as one of the 6 people whose favorite lord is eliwood, it was really nice to see someone go more in depth with his character. there were some things in this video I didn't completely agree on, but you definitely did touch on a lot of the reasons I like eliwood, in addition to making me aware of a lot of things I never noticed about him or FE7

I like how you mainly focused on the story rather than his supports, since the only support of his where I like the C B and A is lyn's. I also really liked how you talked about his relationship with Ninian, since I feel like a lot of people judge that solely on the supports (which aren't too great out of context) and the main reason I've always enjoyed it is because of the story. chapter 20 is one of my favorites, and that scene is definitely my favorite with the two of them.

although I think maybe the title is a bit misleading since it's not really about his supports

anyway I enjoyed this video a lot, thanks for making it. i look forward to seeing the next one of these

Edited May 17, 2017 by unique

[Slumber]

I always knew Ghast was a dirty EliwoodxNinian shipper. Even after building up the OTP of HectorxEliwood.

For real, good video. Still not a huge fan of Eliwood. Doesn't help that he's a mediocre gameplay unit with a pretty basic design. I do appreciate his relationships a lot more now, and the subtle growth he goes through, but I still just kind of see him as red-haired Marth, and I don't think his growth/development is quite as well-handled as Hector's(Who admittedly does need Eliwood for his growth).

Granted, I don't dislike him by any means, and I do think a little more positively about him after watching the video and getting all of the information compressed like that.

 

[Jedi]

Glad to see someone go into depth about how good Eliwood actually is as a character, he's been my favorite lord for quite some time now, and its good to see him get some spotlight on this series Ghast.

[Zapp Branniglenn]

I was concerned about this episode because I don't think there's much to Eliwood just from his supports. Thankfully this wasn't limited to supports, because it feels like half of them are just FE6 shout outs.

[Jonnas]

That is a great analysis of Eliwood's character. I guessed beforehand you'd focus more on the main story than the supports themselves (much like with Hector, Eliwood's strength as a character shows more there), but you even went as far as to include his role in Hector's arc. I already knew that loss was a central part of Eliwood's story, but even then, the video still managed to highlight a few nice details I hadn't noticed (like how his advice to Hector essentially boils down to "don't let your grief cloud your judgement", something Eliwood has had to do as well).

Hector is still my favourite Lord (I do enjoy his own arc a lot), but I always thought Eliwood was a great character in his own right, so it's good to see some love for him, and for the Eliwood/Ninian pairing (which is also one of my favourites).

(As a side-note, I was kinda hoping to see a reference to that Marcus/Lilina support where Marcus says Eliwood once travelled to Ilia just to climb a mountain and pick his wife's favourite flower. It wouldn't add that much to the video, but it's a detail I've always liked)

[Shoblongoo]

I have now had the opportunity to review the video in its entirety. And as I’ve come to expect from Ghast, its an excellent video. Really hits on all the best points of Eliwood’s character.

I’d like to add my own thoughts, on a subject that both Ghast and Mangs have spoken about in passing; specifically with reference to how they can’t imagine a character like Izana actually running a country + how once upon a time, Fire Emblem lore and backstory actually had real elements of political intrigue.

And that’s the idea that Eliwood, as a LORD, is by definition a politician. A head-of-state. A policymaker. A leading figure in the apparatus of government.

This is true to some extent of many characters in the series. And its an aspect of the characters that is under-explored, as FE is not Game of Thrones. It’s a turn based strategy, and what the game ultimately cares about after establishing a pretense of backstory is how the characters behave and interact as units on a battlefield. Not as lords and ladies and politicians.

Tellius was the only Saga where the worldbuilding and the lore was really so well-developed and extensively presented that through characters like Elincia and Sanaki and Naesala, we got a sense for how our lordly units behaved as politicians. Not just how they behaved as fighters.

Well now from what we know ofEliwood’s character in FE6 and FE7—and we know quite a bit—I’m going to construct the image of Eliwood the Politician. Not the knight in shining armor wielding the legendary sword  of sacred fire; but the man who sits the throne of Pharae, and administers his courtly duties as a Lord of the Lycian League.

…Because this is not jokey-jokes Izana. THIS  is the real deal. The full package. A man who we can very easily imagine as an effective head-of-state and a political FORCE in his  country; an Abraham Lincoln of a man who for generations to come, sets the gold standard for what an effective leader should be.

I will break this into 3 parts

1)      Eliwood’s political identify is an odd duality of conservative court-bred deference to Lycian tradition, and what in his day would have been considered a RADICAL form of egalitarianism. Which in-and-of-itself would have required tremendous self-awareness and cleverness to effectively balance. 

      2)  Eliwood as portrayed in FE7 displays a number of traits that would have made him exceptionally well –suited to balancing this duality, and functioning as an effective political figure in spite of it.

3)      Eliwood’s political acumen is fully vindicated in FE6; Eliwood is in fact the true savior of the Lycian League and architect of Zephiel’s defeat, whose cunning prevails where Hector’s strength-of-arms falters.

We will now address each of these ideas in turn
 

ELIWOOD’S POLITICAL IDENTITY

In one sense, Eliwood is the most conservative of the three lords in FE7. He has utmost respect for and deference to the traditions of Lycian aristocracy.

…in contrast to Hector; who is boorish in open court and respects  only strength and loyalty, and who seems to think the etiquette traditions of Lycian aristocracy is all rather pretentious and silly. There is at least one occasion where Eliwood feels the need to apologize for Hector’s behavior and openly scolds Hector: “Your manners are terrible.” 

…or in contrast to Lyndis, who is unfamiliar with Lycian etiquette and traditions because she was raised in Sacae. And who Eliwood tactfully makes a point of helping to coach, when she tells him as much.

Even in FE6: the first thing we here adult Eliwood say is “We will follow the ancient custom and…” in explaining to Roy why they must fight.

Throughout the campaign we see instances of Eliwood behaving not necessarily as he wants to, but as he believes he is required to by his station. He must act like a young lord. He must speak like a young lord. He must apologize when Hector does not act and speak like a young lord. He cannot say or do anything that would be unbecoming of his House or bring shame upon Pharae.

very traditionalist. very orderly. very restrictive code of conduct.

///On the other hand///

Eliwood is this radical egalitarian.  And we see this most clearly in his C-Support with Fiora. Now bear in mind; this is not a particularly important moment or profound speech or monumental occasion for Eliwood. What he says in this support is something he just throws out in casual conversation—he’s so cavalier about it. 

And in a way that’s shocking. Because in the ethic of his day—Eliwood saying what he says here as the Heir of a Noble House, to a lowly Ilian mercenary in his service…

…That would be roughly equivalent of the son of a United States Senator in the 1950s walking around his prep school, proudly proclaiming that he’s a card-carrying member of the Communist Party.

This idea that the serfs are equal to the nobility. That they are to be treated as peers. That the aristocracy is not to Lord any special privilege over them. This idea would have been RADICALLY dangerous to any Lord that caught wind of it.

 And its something that as a Lord of the League Eliwood can’t just go around saying to whomever he feels like—he has to have some sense of political tact that if he says this to the wrong person, his ideas are going to be identified as problematic. Word is going to get out that Lord Eliwood of Pharae is an existential threat to the grand Lycian tradition of feudal aristocracy. And the knives will be out for him.    

Yet this is undoubtedly who Eliwood is. And Eliwood is nothing if not true to himself; he is a man of conviction.

…But at the same time. Eliwood is also the tactful, conservative, court-bred traditionalist. The guy who knows all the etiquette and follows all the rules, and doesn’t like to stir the pot.

As a ruling figure, there is an inherent contradiction here. How does Eliwood follow tradition and etiquette and avoid stirring the pot, while AT THE SAME TIME being true to a radical egalitarian ethic that if overtly obvious, would breach the puffy etiquette of noble society and be VERY alarming to his fellow Lords?

 

Simply put: with exceptional  competence, or not at all.

This brings us to our next section.

 

ELIWOOD’S TRAITS AS A SKILLFUL POLITICIAN

The games focus primarily on Eliwood’s traits as they would be perceived as useful to an army; generally in this regard he as portrayed as less intimidating and dangerous than Hector, and even Lyndis. The traits established for Eliwood, however, are of a kind that if not immediately useful on the battlefield, would by-and-far-away make him the most competent statesmen of the trio. And which we can imagine being put to most excellent use in the window between FE6 and FE7.

 

ELIWOOD TOOK HIS EDUCATION SERIOUSLY, AND HAS A RESPECTABLE LEVEL OF BOOK-SMARTS + INTELLECTUAL CURIOUSITY. In the conversation where he teases Hector for not paying attention in numbers lessons, Hector serves as a foil to Eliwood. Hector did not take his education seriously; he only wanted to be a great fighter. Eliwood, by contrast, wanted to learn. He read. He studied. We can therefore presume he is knowledgeable in subjects that the son of a feudal lord would have been schooled on during the course of his education.

And this is not mere count-by-numbers. This would include such subjects as: classic literature, world history, philosophy, debate and political theory. Subjects that Eliwood learned eagerly, or at least willingly. And where demonstrable mastery thereof would establish him as a formidable man and respectable figure, in Court.  As well as provide a font of knowledge for his day-to-day decision making and long-term plans; historical context and precedent and whatnot.  

...Now you sometimes see characters like LUTE and MIRIEL. Who are intelligent and well-read, but socially clueless and incapable of functioning in polite company. Eliwood on the other hand…   

 

ELIWOOD IS WELL-VERSED IN COURT ETIQUETTE. Again; in contrast to Hector and Lyndis…and looking even to other Lords in the series…in contrast to the braggadocios and unlikeable Erik, and in further contrast to the rude and dismissive Lord of Araphen. Eliwood is a Lord’s Lord. He doesn’t gaffe. He doesn’t offend. He has a measured, diplomatic manner of speaking.

…Now you sometimes see characters like MARIBELLE and CLARINE who are well-versed in etiquette, but uncharismatic and unlikable. Eliwood on the other hand…

   

ELIWOOD IS NATURALLY WELL-SPOKEN AND CHARISMATIC.  And as anyone who follows real politics can swear and attest; this is a vitally important skill for any politician to have. Eliwood says things. He says exactly what he wants to say, and he says it with brevity and clarity in a few short, well thought-out lines. He doesn’t rant or ramble. And when he says things…people listen.

Ghast mentions Eliwood’s conversation with  Hector at the end of HM, about Oswin. Ghast cites this as an example of his bromance with Hector. I cite this as an example of Eliwood’s talents for concise, well-thought out point making and persuasive speech.

I would also cite to Four-Fanged Offensive. Where at the end of the chapter—depending on what route you took—Eliwood will be captured by either Linus or Lloyd, and held with a sword to his throat. Then literally talk his way out of it, as he notes that the Black Fang is not evil and asks why they are fighting and makes Linus/Lloyd further question Sonia’s motives for ordering him dead.

…which in any other setting  would read “asspull.” But Eliwood in-character does it so seamlessly and so believably, this wasn’t even on the radar as something Ghast chose to discuss as one of Eliwood’s definitive character moments.

 

...and finally…

ELIWOOD IS UNFLAPPABLE IN A CRISIS, A TANK OF EMOTIONAL FORTITUDE, AND BOUNCES BACK VERY QUICKLY AND WITH NO DRAMA FROM THE WORST KINDS OF ADVERSITY.

 

Ghast covered this one in full detail.

Eliwood loses his father.

Eliwood lives with the knowledge that the girl he loves is responsible for his father’s death.

Eliwood loses the girl he loves.

Eliwood lives with the knowledge that he is responsible for her death.

 

…and he just keeps on chugging along…nothing’s going to break him down or make him throw a woe-is-me tantrum of angst and agitation…

And if you want to know just how important THAT trait is for politician to have. Look at current American President and professional shitwizard Donald J. Trump, to see what it looks like when a man in high office lacks it completely.

…so Eliwood has a lot of really desirable traits here to govern, govern well, and govern well even when forced to confront the tortured dual-nature of being a traditionalist AND an egalitarian in feudal society.

That’s great. But beyond wild conjecture and inventive fanfic-ing, what if anything can we say Eliwood as a leader among Lycian Lords actually did with these traits?

Welllllllllll

 

ELIWOOD: TRUE SAVIOR OF FE6

How does Lycia not get completely ROFL-stomp steamrolled by Bern in the beginning of FE6?

Etruria. The pivotal moment was when Roy penned a letter to Etruria. And Cecilia came to his aid.

STOP….wait a damn-minute…

 What was going on there; what was the foundational relationship that allowed that to happen? (…yes…we know it was in part because Etruria wanted Lycia in its debt, and saw an opportunity to one-up their biggest geopolitical foe in Bern. But it was more than that. Cecilia had to put in some work to make moves happen and did so only upon receipt of Roy’s letter. But upon receipt, it happened IMMEDIATELY).   
 

 …why exactly???

Well now Roy was previously training with Cecilia, in Etruria. As far as we know, none of the other lordlings were training in Etruria. Etruria is Elibe’s capital of faith and magical learning—Lilina STUDIES magical learning. Lilina wasn’t even training in Etruria.

Roy was studying in Etruria because Eliwood made him study in Etruria. Why did Eliwood make him study in Etruria?

 

Basically, what would have had to happen here is that Eliwood became acquainted with Lord Pent during the events of FE7. As a fellow intellectually curious leader with egalitarian ethics, they would have had…quite a bit to build a statesmanlike relationship on.

From the fighting—also from Pent and Louise’s ability to arrange a meeting with The Queen of Fucking Bern—Eliwood would have very quickly come to understand the power of Etruria’s mage general, and the value of having such a figure as an ally.

Specifically after receiving Athos’s warning at the end of FE7 and seeing early signs of aggression coming out of Bern, Eliwood would have understood the value of having the Mage General of Etruria as an ally  while staring down the barrel of a belligerent Bernese army.

Therefore, as a statesman with a mind for preparing the defenses of his country against this looming threat, Eliwood would have sought to foster a continuing relationship with the Mage General of Etruria. Building bonds of friendship and trust. Swapping assurance of mutual commitments to each other’s interests. Building the relationship up to a level where if one day needed, they would rush to each others aid in a time of strife.

…Eliwood apparently understands all this in a very Game-of-Thrones kind of way, YEARS before the events of FE6 . He knows that Lycia cannot beat Bern in a coming war only by honing its armies; it  must hone alliances.

 
And—by-and-through the exporting of his son’s training—Eliwwood makes just the ally he needs to do what he must.

…Whereas Hector could only think to swing his axe at the foe in front of him.

And when the great foe came: Hector fought. Hector died. Hector didn’t achieve fuck-all. For all his might and skill as a warrior, a stunning lack of preparation and foresight preceded Hector’s response to Bern.

Hector was caught completely with his pants down.

…but Eliwood’s foresight and preparation carried the day…

-Eliwood courts the favor of the mage general of Etruria, going so far as to entrust her with his son

-Bern invades

-Roy reaches out to Cecilia

-Cecilia comes charging in with the might Etruria behind her

-Bern fucks-off for a while

….Thats a very game-of-thrones move right there. Eliwood played a mighty fine hand.

 

IN CLOSING

…That’s my extra insights on Eliwood. As previously mentioned, I write fanfiction. I like to think about aspects of characters that don’t get fully explored in the canon. Eliwood is one of my favorite characters.

Ghast really did him justice; that makes me happy.

And I hope I’ve shed some more light not just on why Eliwood is such a great character. But also all the things you can do with characters when you look at their in-game portrayals as a foundation to be built upon, rather than the be-all-and-end-all of what those characters entail.

Something for writers to think about. Something for hackers to think about.

And just something to always keep in the back of your head, when you’re going through The Lore.


 

Edited May 18, 2017 by Shoblongoo

[Interdimensional Observer]

*Quietly claps*

Bravo I must say! A fairly well done portrayal with the gusto of passion through it.

I too would like to see a bit more politics and administration involved in FE plots/lords. Nothing turgid, but enough to form some general realistic political contours, like with Elincia and Eliwood and Hector. And I don't want perfection either; you can romanticize the characters, but don't make them unrealistically godly.

Could IS please copy/paste a summary version of Holy Roman Emperor Joseph II into an FE? Not as the main character, but as a character among the many. 

Spoiler

He was an obsessive micromanager who though rather elitist and not always progressive, generally worked towards good reforms. He did not go about it in the best possible way however...

His total disregard for the customs of the Holy Roman Empire and unwillingness to back down from his radical actions led royals, nobles, and clerics through the empire to resist. Particularly ferocious were the Magyars (Hungarian Nobility), who loudly protested against his policies of taxation and linguistics (he wanted to make German the universal language of the imperial bureaucracy, he was ignorant of the cultural imperialist implications this would have). The Magyars furthermore, through their military support when Frederick II of Prussia first struck, were the only reason his mother Maria Theresa, and by implication Joseph II, were still rulers of the Holy Roman Empire. Not to say the Magyars were themselves paragons of morality- they abused the heck out of their peasantry (which Joseph's reforms would have alleviated) and later forced cultural imperialism on non-Hungarians in their domains.

By the time he died, Joseph II's bull-in-a-china-shop approach had backfired.

You can criticize him as incredibly and irresponsibly brash and stubborn, and at the same time, you can lament him as a tragedy.

 

[Jonnas]

14 hours ago, Shoblongoo said:

And—by-and-through the exporting of his son’s training—Eliwwood makes just the ally he needs to do what he must.

…Whereas Hector could only think to swing his axe at the foe in front of him.

And when the great foe came: Hector fought. Hector died. Hector didn’t achieve fuck-all. For all his might and skill as a warrior, a stunning lack of preparation and foresight preceded Hector’s response to Bern.

You make plenty of good points, especially this about Hector. Upon thinking about it, it's pretty egregious that Hector, who had access to intel from a reliable spy network (imo, a more valuable institution than the Ostian Knights, certainly more reliable), as well as a couple of prophecies strongly hinting at it (from both Athos and Durban), did so little with the information that Bern would invade. Even Lycia was politically fragile, as multiple cantons betrayed Ostia the moment he died (including Ostia itself). Methinks he should've asked Eliwood for advice more often.

And now that I typed that, I see a lot of similarities between Hector and Robert Baratheon. Which means Eliwood is Ned Stark, I suppose.

14 hours ago, Shoblongoo said:

ELIWOOD IS WELL-VERSED IN COURT ETIQUETTE. Again; in contrast to Hector and Lyndis…and looking even to other Lords in the series…in contrast to the braggadocios and unlikeable Erik, and in further contrast to the rude and dismissive Lord of Araphen. Eliwood is a Lord’s Lord. He doesn’t gaffe. He doesn’t offend. He has a measured, diplomatic manner of speaking.

As I was reading this, I couldn't help but remember the moment where Eliwood calls out Queen Hellene on her indifference towards the assassination attempt, almost ruining their mission. Upon retrospect, it was uncharacteristic of him, seeing as he could have saved those comments until after securing the information he wanted. You think that was an emotional outburst, or just a stubborn sense of honour?

[NinjaMonkey]

On ‎17‎/‎05‎/‎2017 at 10:09 PM, Interdimensional Observer said:

I like that he isn't a god of war, (well in FE7, apparently he got better in old age and Hector worse).

He's ~17 in FE7, and FE6 takes place 20 years later, meaning that he's ~37 years old. How the hell does that qualify as "old age"?

Edited May 18, 2017 by NinjaMonkey

[Magical Glace]

18 hours ago, Shoblongoo said:

Well now Roy was previously training with Cecilia, in Etruria.

Roy (and Lilina) actually trained with Cecilia in Ostia, not Etruria.  

18 hours ago, Shoblongoo said:

Pent and Louise’s ability to arrange a meeting with The Queen of Fucking Bern

IIRC, they could do this because Louise was her relative, albeit distantly.

[Moblin Major General]

49 minutes ago, NinjaMonkey said:

He's ~17 in FE7, and FE6 takes place 20 years later, meaning that he's ~37 years old. How the hell does that qualify as "old age"?

When 25 was over the hill and many didn't live past 40 due to primitive healthcare. Gregor's entire schtick is that he's over the hill in Awakening (specifically the Japanese version).

[Rezzy]

4 hours ago, NinjaMonkey said:

He's ~17 in FE7, and FE6 takes place 20 years later, meaning that he's ~37 years old. How the hell does that qualify as "old age"?

 

That feeling when you're almost 31.

3 hours ago, Hylian Air Force said:

When 25 was over the hill and many didn't live past 40 due to primitive healthcare. Gregor's entire schtick is that he's over the hill in Awakening (specifically the Japanese version).

The lifespan was a bit misleading.  It was so low due to high infant and childhood mortality, but if you lived to be 10, you had a good chance to live to be 50.  Far more people died in their 40s than nowadays, but it wasn't until the 50s or 60s that people started dying from "natural" causes regularly back then.

 

It's kind of funny hearing that Elbert just talked about his son all the time, when he was imprisoned.  As a parent, it's kind of funny, but talking about my kids is probably what I'd do all day, if I had nothing else to do, too.

Edited May 19, 2017 by Rezzy

[Shoblongoo]

8 hours ago, Jonnas said:

 

And now that I typed that, I see a lot of similarities between Hector and Robert Baratheon. Which means Eliwood is Ned Stark, I suppose.

As I was reading this, I couldn't help but remember the moment where Eliwood calls out Queen Hellene on her indifference towards the assassination attempt, almost ruining their mission. Upon retrospect, it was uncharacteristic of him, seeing as he could have saved those comments until after securing the information he wanted. You think that was an emotional outburst, or just a stubborn sense of honour?

Well thats an interesting thought now, isn't it? Hector Ostia as this Robert Baratheon type character...

The son of a great house; renowned in his youth for his monstrous strength and great feats of battlefield prowess.

...he's this bold, commanding presence in the field.

...he bravely meets any foe head-on.

...he is beloved and respected by his fighting men.

...he is handsome. virile. sexually potent.

...he faces bigger, stronger armies and is victorious against overwhelming odds.

...he's this heroic figure of a warrior-prince and model-soldier.

Then he ascends the throne. And its just assumed that because he was this lion-of-a-man on the battlefield, he's going to be a great king. NOPE.

Robert Baratheon was a lion-of-a-man on the battlefield. It turns out that he's quite inept in Court. He doesn't want to be stuffed up in his throne room. It bores him. He can't be bothered to go through sheets  and ledgers; he wants to be out hunting and fighting and questing. He has no patience for administration of state. He delegates royal duty to councilmen and advisors, and when he tries to do it himself he's really bad at it. 

He doesn't keep a close eye on what his advisors and councilmen are doing. He doesn't realize that they don't have his best interests at heart. He doesn't notice that they're plotting behind his back. And that in the end is his downfall--he surrounds himself with the wrong people.

...I can absolutely buy into that as the untold story of Hector, between FE7 and FE6...

And I get into this more in "Robin for Exalt," a 3-year-in-the-making fic I recently completed (the premise to begin with in this one is that Chrom is precisely this type of Robert Baratheon figure. "Chrom was a great man and a noble warrior. But he was a terrible, terrible King.")

As to why Eliwood acts the way he acts in front of Queen Helen

In part, we can say that this was merely youthful indiscretion. An uncharacteristic outburst in a moment of severe distress.

But this begs another question which yields another insight into Eliwood's character: Why was this particular incident so distressing to Eliwood as to make him lose his composure?

Recall we have previously established this is an emotional tank of a young man, and that this is not even close to the worst thing he has seen on his journey.

...Well then...

From what we know of Eliwood, we know he has these very strong egalitarian ideas about the nature of lordship. A conceptualization more akin to Enlightenment Era social contract theory then any feudal idea of government; the idea that  Lords have an AFFIRMATIVE DUTY to protect and provide for their lands, and that their ongoing lordship is contingent upon meeting this duty.

What would be most frustrating and infuriating to Eliwood at a moral level--the thing that would just be a complete affront to his sense of justice and civic duty and piss him off like no other--is persons in a position of royalty or lordship being cruel and selfish and hard-hearted; wielding power for self-aggrandizement rather than for the good of those they are sworn to protect. 

This above all else would make Eliwood absolutely LIVID.

And in Helen--a queen-mother unmoved by the near-death of her own child, seemingly delighting only in wielding power against her husband--that is what Eliwood would have seen. And that would have infuriated him (we can imagine how this peeve of his would play out in Lycian court, in his later days)

Also worth noting that at this point--Eliwood knows the backstory of the Black Fang. What it was before it was corrupted by Nergal. Eliwood knows it was originally this extra-judicial branch of vigilantes that hunted down corrupt nobles--execution style--and brutally punished them for using their power to abuse the peasants. KNOWING THIS, when Eliwood is held by Linus/Lloyd at the end of Four-Fang Offensive, Eliwood STILL tells them that he knows  the Black Fang is not evil.

Which means knowing what he knows of their work in hunting down and executing nobles who do not serve their people--Eliwood approves of what the Pre-Nergal Black Fang was doing. Or at least what they were trying to achieve. These actions do not strike him as unreasonable or unjust.

So again...there's this deep sense in Eliwood that the highborn folk have a duty to protect and serve...not to rule and control. That they should be punished if they do not faithfully execute this duty. And that there's something about the failure to execute this duty which is deeply troubling to him and sets him off.

...That is what would have been in his head when he confronted Queen Helen.
 
 

Edited May 19, 2017 by Shoblongoo

[ghast]

wow guys thanks a bunch for watching! i read all your posts, thanks for contributing

 

[Jonnas]

17 hours ago, Shoblongoo said:

...I can absolutely buy into that as the untold story of Hector, between FE7 and FE6...

 

And I get into this more in "Robin for Exalt," a 3-year-in-the-making fic I recently completed (the premise to begin with in this one is that Chrom is precisely this type of Robert Baratheon figure. "Chrom was a great man and a noble warrior. But he was a terrible, terrible King.")

To be fair, I don't think Hector would ignore his responsibilities as a governor to go have fun, and he did raise his kid properly. So, Hector's fault was that he wasn't competent enough at a job he earnestly tried to shoulder, whereas Robert just shirked his duties entirely.

(Also, I haven't quite finished Awakening yet, but that sounds like a good idea. Awakening seems to introduce some interesting ideas into its world building without fully committing to them, and that includes Chrom shortcomings as a potential Exalt)

17 hours ago, Shoblongoo said:

So again...there's this deep sense in Eliwood that the highborn folk have a duty to protect and serve...not to rule and control. That they should be punished if they do not faithfully execute this duty. And that there's something about the failure to execute this duty which is deeply troubling to him and sets him off.

That's a good theory. I asked because he doesn't seem to lose his cool against Darin (who abandoned his own son and land) or Sonia (who he meets the very next night), but with Hellene, he can't even stay diplomatic for a few minutes. The explanation you gave does help a bit, but I'll add that he may have been more severe with Hellene than with the other two precisely because he expected better from her.

[NekoKnight]

What's up with all this "Hector is an incompetent leader" talk? I never got the impression he was bad at his job. Is this just people's headcanon?

[ping]

Probably, since we only see him as a ruler in FE7's epilogue (where he claims to be "always on top of his duties") and Ostia is still the dominant force in Lycia after 20 years of his rule after all.

--

Anyway, great job on the video once again, ghast! I'm still not really sold on the Eliwood/Ninian romance, mostly because I feel that the "Boy rescues Girl" romance routine is a bit overused. But other than that, I can pretty much agree to your thoughts on Eliwood's character and interactions with others as a whole.