Video Tharja: How Awakening Made a Good, Bad Character. [Fire Emblem: Support Science #14]

[FrostyFireMage]

I'd like to see a Peri analysis video and whether or not she's a sympathetic character

[ghast]

yeah, a lot of folks have pointed out that they don't really buy my theory that her bad writing was intentional and she's more than just a Yandere trope to help sell her and whatnot. I can totally see that perspective and that's not really why I don't feel bad about people not really buying what I'm saying here :P

I just like to think that her blatant clichés have more depth to them, which was p much the focus of the video itself

All of what I said specifically about her mental illness was mostly speculation, which I said in the vid. And you could probably equally place her behavior as Yandere stuff instead of something else.

But anyway, even if people didn't agree but found the video at least interesting to watch, then that's what's important to me!

Edited December 23, 2016 by ghast

[MCProductions]

yeah, a lot of folks have pointed out that they don't really buy my theory that her bad writing was intentional and she's more than just a Yandere trope to help sell her and whatnot. I can totally see that perspective and that's not really why I don't feel bad about people not really buying what I'm saying here :P

I just like to think that her blatant clichés have more depth to them, which was p much the focus of the video itself

All of what I said specifically about her mental illness was mostly speculation, which I said in the vid. And you could probably equally place her behavior as Yandere stuff instead of something else.

But anyway, even if people didn't agree but found the video at least interesting to watch, then that's what's important to me!

Honestly, I just like seeing videos like the one you did with Camilla, because I love fan theories so much. It's part of the reason I stick with the Zelda fanbase despite only actually liking like 4 games in that series.

[Refa]

yeah, a lot of folks have pointed out that they don't really buy my theory that her bad writing was intentional and she's more than just a Yandere trope to help sell her and whatnot. I can totally see that perspective and that's not really why I don't feel bad about people not really buying what I'm saying here :P

I just like to think that her blatant clichés have more depth to them, which was p much the focus of the video itself

All of what I said specifically about her mental illness was mostly speculation, which I said in the vid. And you could probably equally place her behavior as Yandere stuff instead of something else.

But anyway, even if people didn't agree but found the video at least interesting to watch, then that's what's important to me!

Nah, I'm just a complete asshole who forgot all about the video altogether. I really should watch it, maybe it'll even change my mind! Regardless of that, character analysis is always interesting to me because it helps me understand other peoples' view points even if I don't necessarily agree with them.

[NekoKnight]

I appreciate Camilla on a conceptual level, even if the execution left much to be desired. Kind of like the premise for the rest of the game. Even the hints of her backstory are some of the most interesting parts of the game. Also, boobs.

Keep making videos Ghast, we'll keep watching them.

[Thane]

I just like to think that her blatant clichés have more depth to them, which was p much the focus of the video itself

I'd like to think so as well, but even though your analysis was great, I find the evidence stacked against her, what with how Intelligent Systems talked about her, marketed her and how she's just not important to the plot.

But anyway, even if people didn't agree but found the video at least interesting to watch, then that's what's important to me!

Absolutely, I'll be looking forward to your next video. I hope you don't find me too much of an asshole, I just find a lot of characters in Fates to be a lost cause. I still really enjoyed listening to your thoughts and wanted to offer my own, negative though they may be.

I appreciate Camilla on a conceptual level, even if the execution left much to be desired.

This is how I feel about Felicia, honestly. Flora is great, but if Felicia had had a real personality and motives, their subplot would've been the best part of Fates. As it stands, however, it's a one man show.

Naturally if I could I'd fix a lot of things, especially Corrin, but I assume that's asking for too much at once.

[ghast]

nah, i don't find your tone assholish at all so no worries!

[tacticianwhite]

Nice video. I liked how in depth it was, but unfortunately I'd have to agree with others in that Camilla's obsessiveness comes more from her being written as a yandere character. I don't think Intelligent Systems wrote her with mental illness in mind. Still, though, I enjoyed it. I'll say pretty much what I did in the comments section: I do think Camilla has decent supports with her siblings--minus Corrin, of course--and Niles. Camilla suffered a lot during her childhood, being nothing more than a pawn for her mother and having to kill her other siblings. So, I can understand why she'd want to be so protective of Corrin--a motherly or sisterly figure that wants to protect them from how dark the world is. Unfortunately, she was written merely as someone who was just obsessed with them ("a hot sister who's totally into me? AWESOME!" ...I say sarcastically).

..And yet, she is still one of my favorite female characters. I just wish she was treated with more respect by Intelligent Systems--go into more detail about just how much her childhood affected her, and show off her more motherly and sisterly traits than her yandere ones. But I suppose we just can't have that. (And wasn't it Intelligent Systems themselves who came up with the nickname "Cowmilla"?)

[Sidereal Wraith]

I honestly wouldn't be surprised.

[Refa]

Regarding Felicia, there's a pretty big disconnect between gameplay and story concerning her. Her whole "I suck at being a maid but I'm great at fighting" doesn't gel with her having a 25% Str growth, and this EASILY could have been fixed by switching her and Jakob's...everything (especially considering Jakob makes more sense as a more supportive unit as Felicia is now, him actually being good at being a butler and all that). Just makes me salty that despite all evidence to the contrary, Jaoob is the strong one just because he's a dude and Felicia is the weak one just because she's a girl.

[Sylphid]

Nice videos ghast, looking forward to next one! I agree with Res, your speaking is really easy to understand, which is a big thing for me as a English isn't my native language.

While I tend to agree with what Thane said above, I do think Camilla manages to check quite a lot of boxes for the mentally ill theory. It's just enough to have me sometimes doubt that maybe, just maybe there was some depth involved in planning her. Depth very well hidden under an exterior of creepy and boobs, but still. Mixed feelings, I suppose.

As an aside, I found it pretty funny that a character from a completely unrelated mobile game who fits pretty much all the same tropes as Camilla also shares a lot of visual elements with her. Exactly how written in stone are these japanese fetish tropes?

Regarding Felicia, there's a pretty big disconnect between gameplay and story concerning her. Her whole "I suck at being a maid but I'm great at fighting" doesn't gel with her having a 25% Str growth, and this EASILY could have been fixed by switching her and Jakob's...everything (especially considering Jakob makes more sense as a more supportive unit as Felicia is now, him actually being good at being a butler and all that). Just makes me salty that despite all evidence to the contrary, Jaoob is the strong one just because he's a dude and Felicia is the weak one just because she's a girl.

Speaking of story/gameplay disconnect, there's also Rinkah, the great fire tribe warrior with... Kind of unimpressive stats (though I don't think she's as bad as internet usually makes her out to be)

[ping]

Great video! I haven't watched the Azura one yet, but I'm definitely going to. Your thoughts about Camilla are really well thought out and presented.

I'm not a big anime connaisseur, so I haven't really been exposed to the Yandere archetype ('violently love-crazed' is the beginning and the end of my knowledge), but maybe I can look at Camilla a bit less biased that way. Anyway, I'd say you're right in that Camilla seems actually pretty consistent in her behavior. As a villain in BR she works alright, imo, because the player mostly gets presented the crazy side of her: Because of her obsession with Corrin she needs to be stopped. I found the scene you've shown (which I actually read as 'I will murder my sweet sweet Corrin personally so that s/he can bleed out peacefully with their head in my lap') legitimately unsettling instead of sexual, although I'm sure there are people out there with that exact fetish. ;) It's too bad that the world around her still doesn't really react accordingly. Corrin instantly trying to recruit her after the Cheve chapter is very much in-character, I guess, but does anyone actually take issue with her just being released after she fights the party the second time?

The problem I have with her presentation as an ally is that her crazyness (I didn't dissect it as thoroughly as you did, but my god it's clear that she's not OK) is presented as just another character quirk, even if the authors might have put more thought in her character than I initially gave them credit for. Her dialogue partners might react if Camilla threatens them directly, but I think Niles is the only one who actually seems to recognize that she has issues. Most of the time, it's just the same category as Laslow's awkward flirtiness, Sakura's shyness or Elise's quirkiness (to take three random examples).

The way I see it, Camilla could have been an interesting character even without changing her, but by changing how her environment reacts to her behavior. By having her support partners actually voice concern about Camilla's mental state or something like that. But the way she is written into the game, I have a hard time viewing her as more than blatant fanservice for players with a mommy fetish.

[FrostyFireMage]

Speaking of story/gameplay disconnect, there's also Rinkah, the great fire tribe warrior with... Kind of unimpressive stats (though I don't think she's as bad as internet usually makes her out to be)

It kind of makes sense though with her personal skill and crit chance

I also don't understand why people think visible muscles = massive strength when it really should equate to high defense (which Rinkah certainly has)

[ghast]

Happy Holidays!

[Radiant head]

Regarding Felicia, there's a pretty big disconnect between gameplay and story concerning her. Her whole "I suck at being a maid but I'm great at fighting" doesn't gel with her having a 25% Str growth, and this EASILY could have been fixed by switching her and Jakob's...everything (especially considering Jakob makes more sense as a more supportive unit as Felicia is now, him actually being good at being a butler and all that). Just makes me salty that despite all evidence to the contrary, Jaoob is the strong one just because he's a dude and Felicia is the weak one just because she's a girl.

she's really good with flame shurikens tho

[Augestein]

Regarding Felicia, there's a pretty big disconnect between gameplay and story concerning her. Her whole "I suck at being a maid but I'm great at fighting" doesn't gel with her having a 25% Str growth, and this EASILY could have been fixed by switching her and Jakob's...everything (especially considering Jakob makes more sense as a more supportive unit as Felicia is now, him actually being good at being a butler and all that). Just makes me salty that despite all evidence to the contrary, Jaoob is the strong one just because he's a dude and Felicia is the weak one just because she's a girl.

Actually, it kinda does make sense. Her supports are basically saying "Reclass ASAP."

[Troykv]

Happy Holidays!

This was a nice surprise!

Happy! (Late) Holidays :D

[ping]

Finally got around to watching your video about Azura's support. Nice work!

The only entry I don't really liked (i.e. the support, not the commentary) was Hayato's, although I guess that's mostly because of the S-Support. I don't mind that Hayato is infatuated with her, and I actually like Azura's 'maybe later' response, but the fact that they're banging anyway just reinforces my view that their obstinacy to make every male/female support romantic hurts the vast majority of them. :/ Kaden and Laslow work because they display actual chemistry with Azura in the CBA supports, but most of the time (from what I've read, which is just a fraction of all the supports) the love confession feels just tacked on. Hayato seems actually a bit unusual because in his case, the obligation of the reproductive act does impact the A support, but imho not in a good way.

Anyway, imma watch the retainer video now and perhaps edit in my thoughts about it. Keep it up! =)

€: Heh, when reading the title, I was expecting a comparison between the retainers in the franchise. I wasn't disappointed, though. I personally preferred this format over the Top5 you used for Azura, mostly because it allowed you to put more emphasis on how the supports complement each other, instead of looking for reasons why this support is ever so slightly more interesting than that one. I'm aware that Awakening and Fates have too many supports to go through them all and 'My Top5 list' probably generates more views than 'My favorite supports in no particular order', though. ;)

Also: Yes, Sacred Stones has some seriously amazing characters and supports; and yes, Fordika is my favorite among Eirika's romantic supports, although L'Arachel's is kind of cute, too. Seth is just another Rescue Romance, Innes' obsession with twincest creeps me out a litte, I don't really read any actual incest subtext into Eirika's and Ephraim's relationship and Saleh I just find to be one of the less interesting characters in the game in general. Just to give a quick and unreflected summary of my thoughts. :D

Edited December 28, 2016 by ping

[ghast]

Admittedly, my least favorite video in the series so far. I let personal bias kind of sink in more than the other ones because I personally can't find a thing I like about Peri.

TL;DW i find Peri to be unappealing, shallow, and she makes other characters worse off. A lot of her her supports are either pointless or make Peri less of a character and more of a hot mess of random quirks for a nutjob.

Regardless, I hope you enjoy watching.

[Thane]

Finally! I saw this three hours after you had uploaded it and wanted to write my response immediately, but I didn't want to "update" your thread for you. Anyway, this is the perfect study break; gods I need to vent...

Personally, I never minded Peri's design. She's a crazy person who's got an odd look.

Funnily enough, my first objection to your video has nothing to do with Peri, but with Xander. His role in the main story is far from upstanding; he willingly invades Hoshido, trash talks Ryouma, starts fighting Corrin because they refuse to execute defenseless prisoners of war, hardly cares about Garon's evil monologue about making Corrin suffer until they beg for a death Garon would deny them that he happens to overhear, takes an active part in an invasion which his support self would argue against, but his main story counterpart justifies with Garon knowing what's best for Nohr. Like I just wrote in another thread, Xander is a far worse version than Hetzel in Conquest; Hetzel gets torn a new one by Sanaki for not doing what he could to stop the senators, whereas Xander is still considered a good guy even though he activel takes part in making sure the bad things happen. The fact that people cheer when Xander, who has been shown to be easily manipulated, coldhearted, selfish (could've ended the war immediately had he let Zora kill the Hoshidan royals) and overall unreliable, is crowned king is absolutely mind-numbing.

In Birthright, he takes the coward's way out and lets himself get killed by Corrin instead of turning around and fight for what he knew to be right. He says he never had a choice but to obey, and I can buy a guy being loyal, but he's loyal to a man he knows to be evil and that goes against everything he believes in. In Revelation he only turns against Garon because the man conveniently holds yet another bloody evil monologue, this one including a snippet about destroying Nohr as well.

Xander's main story portrayal is not that of a good guy. Fates' writing is nothing short of a string of events tied sloppily together and progressed by contrivance and convenience; Xander's role in Revelation is an example of this, and the only reason why he should ever be considered a force of good.

Of course, barring Peri's support, his supports are pretty damn good and shows us how he should have been in the main story.

Speaking of Peri...

In the Japanese version, if memory serves (I'm afraid I can't look it up at the present since I'm on a train with shoddy internet), Peri's support with Xander has to do with her inability to speak in teineigo, or formal speech; her final line with Laslow is just her speaking normally and without an obnoxious speech pattern she has in the Japanese version (she ends pretty much every single line with なの！- NA NO! Argh, horrible flashbacks, I can practically her hear shrieking it just thinking about it...my poor ears...). I would assume this is one of those things that are not carried over well to English.

Other than that, I pretty much agree with you. Peri's mere existence as it is now requires everyone else to act out of character to accommodate her. She's a walking trope we're not supposed to question, much like the rest of Fates.

[Troykv]

Admittedly, my least favorite video in the series so far. I let personal bias kind of sink in more than the other ones because I personally can't find a thing I like about Peri.

TL;DW i find Peri to be unappealing, shallow, and she makes other characters worse off. A lot of her her supports are either pointless or make Peri less of a character and more of a hot mess of random quirks for a nutjob.

Regardless, I hope you enjoy watching.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8RPU-xCpTvU

Peri is that kind of character that doesn't work as a hero with her unappealing and absurd personality.

She is a freak and should die in the story as the other Nohr NPCs.

[Brand_Of_The_Exalt]

I'm tired of explaining why I disagree with these points, I know I'm not going to change minds and that's your opinion. So I'll just limit myself to the little intro and probably leave. That being said, I'm surprised that her support Felicia wasn't the main reason for saying she's a bad character (but an analysis of this support seems to lack in the video because there are things to say).

A lot of her her supports are either pointless or make Peri less of a character and more of a hot mess of random quirks for a nutjob.

Because of course, most supports aren't pointless, it's not as if most Hoshidans characters and especially the retainers did not feel bland as hell. Like Saizo, Kagero, Setsuna, Azama, Hinata, Subaki, Hana... The royals don't fare much better. And on this point, I think that Peri has good supports overall, she stands out of the mass but she suffers from the support system that get rid of her evolution in her supports with Laslow, Odin, Keaton, ... I also like the fact that she's not as obsessed with her liege as the other retainers, especially Oboro ('cause everybody seems to like her but put this under silence), Hinata (these two are obscene on this point), Hana, Effie, but still is respectful and grateful. Really, I don't understand this hate for Peri in particular when such cases exist. Being "unappealing" for you doesn't mean she's that bad.

TL;DW i find Peri to be unappealing, shallow, and she makes other characters worse off.

You're probably referring to Xander and the fact that she's his retainer whereas he doesn't agree with Garon's needless violence (but that's more about Xander's writing that Peri's IMO), that "she doesn't deserve her rank", etc. First of all, something that is completely forgotten is her combat attitude, as she was able to stand against Ryoma's (high prince and one of the finest warriors in Hoshido) warth with Laslow in CQ's chapter 12. And we're talking about Nohr before Corrin made things change, Garon probably approved his choice (and his possible approval probably motivated Xander's choice), so a "disturbed" retainer would not drop the royalty's image (if they did really care about that), it's not as if the first princess was also kind of disturbed and did not wear a sexy armor in public. I don't see her dropping the other caracters, quite the contrary, maybe they saw something you wasn't able to see because you find her unappealing (I like the fact that you recognized you are a bit biased on this though). She's not such a bad person, most of her supports show her kind (like Corrin's), some other even show some regrets (Odin's) and she probably stopped killing things once she joins Corrin's army (except for Odin's supports C and B).

Edited January 5, 2017 by Brand_Of_The_Exalt

[Thane]

You're probably referring to...

With a simple click on the video, you could listen to his arguments in their entirety and reply accordingly, you know.

She's not such a bad person, most of her supports show her kind (like Corrin's), some other even show some regrets (Odin's) and she probably stopped killing things once she joins Corrin's army (except for Odin's supports C and B).

And Leo's...

And Felicia's...

And Keaton's...

[NekoKnight]

While "Pieri is an awful character" might be easily deduced, it's helpful to consider other characters and why their behavior isn't consistent with tolerating Pieri.

I think the way to make her not essentially Hans with pigtails is to remove her killing of innocents. Henry has a morbid sense of humor but afaik he never says that he has or definitely will harm innocents. Reina similarly has a perverse interest in killing but it's limited to fighting enemies, not people who bother her. Had they made her essentially Reina or replace her penchant for murder with having a hair-trigger temper (and taking her rage out on objects, not people) I could at least buy her being in the army, even if she's still unfitting as the crown prince's retainer. Really, she should have just been a random soldier you recruit and someone like Benny being Xander's retainer.

[Brand_Of_The_Exalt]

With a simple click on the video, you could listen to his arguments in their entirety and reply accordingly, you know.

Given the tons of Xander portaits in the video, I guessed. I don't have 20 minutes right now and I don't want to hear the same arguments I already saw here plenty of time.

And Leo's...

And Felicia's...

And Keaton's...

I remember you were here when I explained her support with Felicia, so no need to repeat myself.

She did not kill anyone in her support with Leo, just said she'd like to. That being said, this support is interesting, as it raises the question of ethics in war. A kill is a kill, there are no explanations for that, as shown by Leo's inability to answer. War is just an excuse to feel better about that, that's it. Same could be said about Keaton's support and the necessity to kill for food, whether you're having fun or no, and we could note that hunting became a sport more than a necessity in modern civilizations. That's also something I like about her supports, they are able to raise interesting questions on some concepts because of Peri's child-like personality, like her support with Charlotte which is about self-acceptance and the way we want other people to see us.

Edited January 5, 2017 by Brand_Of_The_Exalt