Video Tharja: How Awakening Made a Good, Bad Character. [Fire Emblem: Support Science #14]

[Caster]

Yea.. Ghast. Yea... can't really say I like this video.

You let personal bias seep in too much... and you didn't feel like you were trying to make a point, it felt all over the place to me, can't say I really enjoyed this video.

It's hard to watch someone trying to be analytical over something they're biased against, or even for.

I like Peri, and I understand and respect people who dislike or even hate her, cause it's hard to like her, but, yea.

I think you did a poor job of making a point in this video.

I hope you do better next time.

You've done a good job in the other ones but I think you didn't handle this video well.

[Thane]

Given the tons of Xander portaits in the video, I guessed. I don't have 20 minutes right now and I don't want to hear the same arguments I already saw here plenty of time.

If you don't have 20 minutes, why do you enter the discussion based on a few assumptions? That's incredibly rude to Ghast and extremely unhelpful in general.

I remember you were here when I explained her support with Felicia, so no need to repeat myself.

I have absolutely no recollection of what you're talking about, and I especially don't remember agreeing with any points you may have made.

She did not kill anyone in her support with Leo, just said she'd like to.

I'm very confused by your logic here. You said "she probably stopped killing people when she joined Corrin's army", and in Leo's support she's on her way to kill whoever catches her eye.

[spoiler=Leo and Peri's support]

• Peri: Heeheeheehee!
• Leo: You seem excited about something, Peri. Are you going out?
• Peri: Oh, hi, Lord Leo! I was just thinking about going to kill someone! Do you want to come? There’ll be buckets of blood—and fun!
• Leo: Who is the target?
• Peri: Oh, I haven’t worked out the little details yet! I thought I'd just wing it and kill whoever caught my eye!
• Leo: I don’t follow. Why would you kill a perfect stranger?
• Peri: Hey, sometimes you get a craving to kill, and you just have to run with it!
• Leo: I've…never had such a craving. You kill simply for fun? In defiance of common decency?
• Peri: What's a common decency? I've never heard of that, so it can't be as common as you say…
• Leo: I'm sorry, Peri. Now that I know your intentions, I can't allow you to leave.
• Peri: Whaaaaaat?! You big meanie!

So, what, just because Leo just happened to stop her before she could do the deed means she's A-okay?

That being said, this support is interesting, as it raises the question of ethics in war. A kill is a kill, there are no explanations for that, as shown by Leo's inability to answer. War is just an excuse to feel better about that, that's it.

That's not how things work at all, and, just as Ghast points out in his video, Leo acts incredibly out of character here, which is a direct result of Peri's character not fitting in. They're not having some kind of deep, philosophical discussion about the horrors of war; Peri is acting like a spoiled brat who refuses to understand the difference between killing innocents for fun and enemies.

Same could be said about Keaton's support and the necessity to kill for food, whether you're having fun or no, and we could note that hunting became a sport more than a necessity in modern civilizations.

I don't even understand what you're saying here. The support ends with Peri proclaiming her love for killing and being happy that Keaton won't stop her from keep murdering people (just being a little "choosier"), something you assumed she stopped doing when she joined Corrin's army.

Edited January 5, 2017 by Thane

[shadowofchaos]

I like Peri, and I understand and respect people who dislike or even hate her, cause it's hard to like her, but, yea.

Objectively speaking...

In a game full of character gimmicks that define them...

A character whose gimmick is "innocent sounding, ignorant, child-like killer" is pretty terrible.

You have a right to like her... but I'd say, that from a neutral standpoint, Ghast had nothing positive to work with.

Ghast even admitting bias shows he didn't do a poor of a job as he thinks, and certainly not as poor as you say he did.

When the best thing you can say is "she didn't kill anyone in that particular support", it's going to be hard to justify positive statements about a character.

From my own perspective, I have more tolerance to high pitched squealing/speaking in Japanese than most people.

But when combined with the killing, ignorance, and "pseudo-development"... Pieri's "na no" constantly grates my ears.

In JP, she even threatens to kill you if you mess up her hair in the my room petting game.

You can pretty much only like her for the sake of liking her. Not by any justification that would be founded on normal society logic.

Edited January 5, 2017 by shadowofchaos

[Caster]

-snip-

I'm not exactly saying you're incorrect.

I'm not even saying it's a bad video because I like Peri.

I'm speaking in terms of the video itself, it's done poorly, at least in my opinion. You're free to like or dislike a character as you please, and Ghast is free to feel whatever he likes, and I admit it's hard if you dislike a character like this, it's hard to find a middle ground.

Unlike the other videos in this series, it just seems more like inconsistent ranting, rather than a consistent analysis on a character or characters, and their supports.

I'm talking about the video, I didn't find it engaging at all and much, much weaker than the other's in the series of video's he's done.

I know he doesn't like Camilla either, but I feel he did a good job at dissecting and looking at her on a more neutral stance for the most part, while this video is more I feel just ranting about Peri, without really proving any point.

I'm just saying I don't think he did a good job on this video, and I feel bias plays some part in it, but also how he structured and went about it.

I'm not saying it's the worst video I've ever watched and it has no merit, I just think overall it's poor and a mediocre video.

That's all, and that's just my opinion.

I can enjoy content that's contrarian to my personal beliefs, but this doesn't really fit into that.

I do look forward to your next video, though, Ghast.

[Jedi]

I think you give Xander way too much credit as being intelligent when he is a clearly hypocritical idiot, as seen in pretty much every plotline.

[Brand_Of_The_Exalt]

If you don't have 20 minutes, why do you enter the discussion based on a few assumptions? That's incredibly rude to Ghast and extremely unhelpful in general.

I'm not unrespectful, I did put some respecting points in my first post, I also found the last video interesting (the best retainer), sorry if I sounded rude, but when you're loafing here, you're often hearing the same arguments from the mouth of different people, and the fact is I was able to find it immediately in the video. I deviated from my original point, but I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks it feels biased, and I said it in my first post.

I'm very confused by your logic here. You said "she probably stopped killing people when she joined Corrin's army", and in Leo's support she's on her way to kill whoever catches her eye.

[spoiler=Leo and Peri's support]

• Peri: Heeheeheehee!
• Leo: You seem excited about something, Peri. Are you going out?
• Peri: Oh, hi, Lord Leo! I was just thinking about going to kill someone! Do you want to come? There’ll be buckets of blood—and fun!
• Leo: Who is the target?
• Peri: Oh, I haven’t worked out the little details yet! I thought I'd just wing it and kill whoever caught my eye!
• Leo: I don’t follow. Why would you kill a perfect stranger?
• Peri: Hey, sometimes you get a craving to kill, and you just have to run with it!
• Leo: I've…never had such a craving. You kill simply for fun? In defiance of common decency?
• Peri: What's a common decency? I've never heard of that, so it can't be as common as you say…
• Leo: I'm sorry, Peri. Now that I know your intentions, I can't allow you to leave.
• Peri: Whaaaaaat?! You big meanie!

So, what, just because Leo just happened to stop her before she could do the deed means she's A-okay?

She's always saying that she'll kill, she never does it. That's just a part of her gimmick, nothing more. And in Conquest's story, Corrin always asks not to kill anybody, there are very few chapters where you actually kill non Faceless enemies (mostly 19, 23, 25, 26 from the top off my mind). She may not be glad about it, she doesn't openly object either.

That's not how things work at all, and, just as Ghast points out in his video, Leo acts incredibly out of character here, which is a direct result of Peri's character not fitting in. They're not having some kind of deep, philosophical discussion about the horrors of war; Peri is acting like a spoiled brat who refuses to understand the difference between killing innocents for fun and enemies.

Because there's a difference ? Where is it ? When you kill someone, with fun or not, you're just putting an end to his life for a small moment of yours, and you're one that lives and the other one is dead. Nothing more. That's just hypocrisy to try to justify it. So yes, Leo maybe acts out of character and I don't really agree on this point, he doesn't have a well-defined personality on this subject, he kills Iago whereas he's begging to live and does not get to be captured and put in jail or something, he even says "Leo: It was nothing. It actually feels really nice, knowing he's out of our lives", but his inability to explain the difference shows he's not even convinced. You can also raise interesting points outside of philosophical discussions (comedy used to be very good for that). Finally, there's also the "human" factor, people adapt themselves to the person they're talking with. In-game, if everybody stayed in their personality, it'd feel extremely robotic and boring. I also think Arsenio made a good point in the comments.

I don't even understand what you're saying here. The support ends with Peri proclaiming her love for killing and being happy that Keaton won't stop her from keep murdering people (just being a little "choosier"), something you assumed she stopped doing when she joined Corrin's army.

That's the support system, not Peri. There are often contradictions with the story. But I'll leave you with this:

• Keaton: ... There, you and I are not that different.
• Peri: Like how?
• Keaton: I like blood, too. I'm fascinated by the sight of blood spurting from my prey. For this, it doesn't matter if I'm hunting man or beast. Either way, I get a thrill to see the blood of prey I've downed with my own claws.
• Peri: That's just how I feel!
• Keaton: Still, I won't slay a beast for sport. Hmm... I guess I'm just more beast than man.
• Peri: And that's why you didn't want me to go hunting with you?
• Keaton: Yeah. I hate to see a fellow beast die without good reason.
• Peri: Well, OK then! Let's go hunt some people together! Right now!
• Keaton: That's a tempting thought. But if we're going hunting, let's hunt the enemy. We probably shouldn't revel in the blood of our allies...
• Peri: Whaaat? You want me to wait until our next fight...?!
• Keaton: Eh. We get in fights all the time.
• Peri: Good point! OK, I won't kill anybody until then.
• Keaton: Haha! We can sharpen our claws while we wait!

What I mean is this particular hate for Peri despite the presence of extremely boring and bland characters on the other side makes no sense to me.

Edited January 5, 2017 by Brand_Of_The_Exalt

[ping]

[...]

Dunno, Ghast raises a good point in that Peri stays rather static and that her support partners have to creak and bend to allow the convos to come to a conclusion. That said, it is rather unfair that he criticizes the one support in which Peri does show some self-reflection. ;)

I would almost recommend that you redo the video if you can muster sufficient willpower to busy yourself with Peri at some time, Ghast. Some of your points are really good (especially the part where you suggest a better way to integrate a character as Peri into the story), but most of the time your trains of thought seem to start at the conclusion (i.e. Peri = TERRIBLE).

[ghast]

At some point, I may go back to talking about Peri and see if I can muster a better video, yeah. It would be nice to go back and revise it for later. I think those who were looking forward to something better than what i did deserve that. And I think it would make for a good personal challenge.

I actually had a bad feeling when I uploaded this and really considered not uploading it. But I'm trying to make this a weekly thing and wanted to stick with it.

I could use some future quality control though, so if anyone is willing to be a sort of script-reviser and fact-checker for me, I'd appreciate forming a bit of a team.

Also, I'm going to make my next video on Nyx.

[Caster]

I think you should focus on making your videos as well as you can before releasing them.

Weekly content can be a good thing, yea, but if you take all the time you need to work on it, it won't feel rushed when it comes out. If it's to improve your content, I don't think most people would mind if you didn't do it weekly, but when you felt you worked well enough on it that you think it's good.

[saisymbolic]

snip

I think that would be a good idea. Maybe get together a group of three or four to hash out details and such. Maybe bi-weekly would be a bit better to give you more time to research and refine your ideas, and you could post some other less time consuming videos in-between?

I personally thought the video was intersting, and I do think that Peri has something called the "Uzumaki Curse," in that she causes certain characters to forcibly twist themselves into a characterization that should be impossible. Which is essentially what you said. Another character that suffers is Arthur - in all actuality, they should not even interact with each other considering her infamy around camp.

Granted, this is a problem with how the support system is, forcing characters to interact when they have no chemistry. That is a rant for another day, however.

[Thane]

I'm not unrespectful, I did put some respecting points in my first post, I also found the last video interesting (the best retainer), sorry if I sounded rude, but when you're loafing here, you're often hearing the same arguments from the mouth of different people, and the fact is I was able to find it immediately in the video. I deviated from my original point, but I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks it feels biased, and I said it in my first post

It's incredibly rude and very arrogant to presume to know the content of a video someone has worked on and proceed to enter a discussion based around it without having watched it. That's not really up for debate; those are just bad manners.

She's always saying that she'll kill, she never does it. That's just a part of her gimmick, nothing more.

Because she was stopped just in time. You said she "probably" stopped when she joined Corrin's army; I want to know what in the blazes you base this on when she explicitly says she wants to kill people and even attacks Felicia in their support!

And in Conquest's story, Corrin always asks not to kill anybody, there are very few chapters where you actually kill non Faceless enemies (mostly 19, 23, 25, 26 from the top off my mind). She may not be glad about it, she doesn't openly object either.

Peri doesn't have a single speaking line in Conquest outside of her recruitment chapter and a greeting to Xander if she has survived when he joins. That holds true for all retainers. What exactly does this prove?

Corrin winning entire battles without actually killing one is a horrible writing decision that shatters whatever suspension of disbelief Conquest hoped to have. It's simply not a possible scenario, and the fact that it happens more than once is baffling.

Because there's a difference ? Where is it ? When you kill someone, with fun or not, you're just putting an end to his life for a small moment of yours, and you're one that lives and the other one is dead. Nothing more. That's just hypocrisy to try to justify it.

I'm having the hardest time understanding what you're trying to communicate, so let me just double check and ask if you're saying that it's always equally bad to murder someone no matter who that is?

Leo maybe acts out of character and I don't really agree on this point, he doesn't have a well-defined personality on this subject, he kills Iago whereas he's begging to live and does not get to be captured and put in jail or something, he even says "Leo: It was nothing. It actually feels really nice, knowing he's out of our lives", but his inability to explain the difference shows he's not even convinced.

What are you talking about? This is exactly what he was talking about; there's a difference between killing one's enemies and killing innocents for the fun of it. Leo kills someone who has done everthing in his power to kill someone he cares about and at certain points the entire Nohrian royal family at once. Leo's entire thing is that he's pragmatic but not heartless. You just proved my point.

Here's a few lines from his B support with Peri:

Leo: Peri, I won't let this rest until you understand. It is a gross violation of common decency to commit murder on a childish whim! Even if the victim is bad!

Leo: Yes, but the people we kill on the battlefield are immediate foes. What's more, if we didn't kill them, they would kill us.

Leo: Yes, that's it exactly. Killing one's foes is not just OK—it's necessary.

In other words, Leo thinks it's okay to kill people who would otherwise kill them, but objects to murdering innocents, which Peri doesn't mind.

That's the support system, not Peri. There are often contradictions with the story. But I'll leave you with this:

• Keaton: ... There, you and I are not that different.
• Peri: Like how?
• Keaton: I like blood, too. I'm fascinated by the sight of blood spurting from my prey. For this, it doesn't matter if I'm hunting man or beast. Either way, I get a thrill to see the blood of prey I've downed with my own claws.
• Peri: That's just how I feel!
• Keaton: Still, I won't slay a beast for sport. Hmm... I guess I'm just more beast than man.
• Peri: And that's why you didn't want me to go hunting with you?
• Keaton: Yeah. I hate to see a fellow beast die without good reason.
• Peri: Well, OK then! Let's go hunt some people together! Right now!
• Keaton: That's a tempting thought. But if we're going hunting, let's hunt the enemy. We probably shouldn't revel in the blood of our allies...
• Peri: Whaaat? You want me to wait until our next fight...?!
• Keaton: Eh. We get in fights all the time.
• Peri: Good point! OK, I won't kill anybody until then.
• Keaton: Haha! We can sharpen our claws while we wait!

Are...are you trolling me right now? Is this some elaborate prank? You specifically linked a part of their support that shows Peri can only wait a short while before she starts killing people. What's more, you're ignoring the rest of the entire bloody support!

What I mean is this particular hate for Peri despite the presence of extremely boring and bland characters on the other side makes no sense to me.

Maybe if you would watch Ghast's video, you'd understand at least one person's perspective.

At some point, I may go back to talking about Peri and see if I can muster a better video, yeah. It would be nice to go back and revise it for later. I think those who were looking forward to something better than what i did deserve that. And I think it would make for a good personal challenge.

I actually had a bad feeling when I uploaded this and really considered not uploading it. But I'm trying to make this a weekly thing and wanted to stick with it.

I could use some future quality control though, so if anyone is willing to be a sort of script-reviser and fact-checker for me, I'd appreciate forming a bit of a team.

Also, I'm going to make my next video on Nyx.

I wouldn't mind checking scripts every now and again, but I'm a very picky person and highly skeptical of Fates' writing, so I'm not sure my negative mindset would be suitable for something like that.

[ghast]

I wouldn't mind checking scripts every now and again, but I'm a very picky person and highly skeptical of Fates' writing, so I'm not sure my negative mindset would be suitable for something like that.

Well, considering that i really really like Nyx's supports to the point where she's one of my favorite characters, maybe you could pick on me after I toss you a draft? :P

[Thane]

Well, considering that i really really like Nyx's supports to the point where she's one of my favorite characters, maybe you could pick on me after I toss you a draft? :P

Sure, I'm certain I can find something to harp on.

[eclipse]

I don't have long, because staring at a computer screen gives me a headache.

1. I had an analysis of Peri somewhere, which I will look for when I don't feel like puking. Her role is actually world-building. Her character is shaped by circumstance (but isn't solely a victim of circumstance like Ninian). From her, we get a better picture of what Nohr is like. . .but all we know about her is that she loved mommy very much.

2. If you need someone to bounce things off of, feel free to bug me. Nitpicking support convos is something I have fun with, though I usually don't have a reason to do so myself.

[NekoKnight]

If one is to like Pieri and think she's a good person at heart, you're going to have to accept that she's an unrepentant serial killer, past and present. Mind you, I don't think liking morally perverse characters means you approve of such things in real life, but within the context of the story, Pieri is a villain, who, like many Fates characters, has her villainy ignored.

Yo Ghast, hook me up with those character analysis', I'll peer review your stuff.

Edited January 5, 2017 by NekoKnight

[eclipse]

A take on Peri, in terms of world-building.

Supplemental stuff.

Not sure if this is what you're looking for, but this is what I got out of Peri's supports.

[MCProductions]

I like these analsyses, tho I honestly never had a solid opinion on Peri, beyond shipping her with Xander in my headcanon world where Conquest is canon, Corrin actually kills things and is called out for his actions, and Hinoka actually has damn relevance, tho this video does make me want to read Xander and Nyx's supports.

[ghast]

HEY! SS #5 is here.

Really proud of this one. Hope you dig it!

[Troykv]

HEY! SS #5 is here.

Really proud of this one. Hope you dig it!

I saw the whole freaking video...

I love it, now I'm sure I would like Nyx.

Now I have to eventually explain it to my friends.

Edited January 14, 2017 by Troykv

[saisymbolic]

I really liked this video mostly because Nyx is one of my favorite characters. It's really sad that most people are deterred from Nyx due to either her design (which, honestly, resembles a young adult to me) or her stats (which are admittedly doodoo butter) because she truly is one of the better written characters in the game.

[Thane]

Yeah, I didn't pay much attention to Nyx at all while playing through the game, and while I don't quite share your enthusiasm and I find her support with Charlotte to be very cringe-inducing, you definitely made me see her in a new light and like her more. Well done, buddy!

[Refa]

A character whose gimmick is "innocent sounding, ignorant, child-like killer" is pretty terrible.

I don't see why a character who has those characteristics has to be terrible.

[ping]

My initial reaction to Nyx when I saw her in Mangs' LP was basically "Oh hey, they found another excuse to include a fuckable child character" and I still think that the designer's choice of her outfit is absolutely terrible. But you did convince me that there isn't anything wrong with Nyx' character and her background. It's an interesting take on the whole Eternal Youth stuff: It's not about Nyx being afraid of seeing her loved ones die, which is a nice change from the usual in and outside of FE. The parts about guilt and redemption seem to be really well-written as well.

So yeah, I dig the video!

[ghast]

thanks everyone!

[Caster]

You did much better this time.

Good job, I expect you to continue with as much quality in the future.