Truck plows through Berlin market, 12 dead

[eclipse]

Source.

Hopefully, the death count won't rise any further. 50 are reported wounded as well. Don't know how many of you are near Berlin, but stay safe!

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

This reminds me on the attack from Nice also happened this year.

However it's not sure yet if this has a terroristic backround.

If it's so, then I'd be the first time that Germany was affected.

Edit: It was a terror attack.

Edit II: I see another huge refuge debate coming... Welcome food for right (and) populistic parties in Europe.

Edit III: As for the moment 11 deaths are confirmed but lots of injured people are in critcial condition.

Anyways my condolences to all the died people and their relatives.

Edited December 20, 2016 by Eleanor Hume

[ping]

I'm from NW Germany, but I do have a few friends in Berlin, including one student that visited our hometown over the weekend and got back to Berlin literally the night before the attack. She's fine, thank god, but it's still a damn nasty feeling.

My thoughts are with all the people who visited the Christmas Market at that time and with their relatives.

[SullyMcGully]

I bet this will get a lot of political attention pretty soon. I just hope that our leaders are able to respect those affected by this attack as victims of a great tragedy and not as meaningless political props. My prayers are with everyone in Berlin today (but I guess it's probably night there right now).

[Marz]

Seeing attacks like this makes me tear up, I am so sorry to anybody that was affected.

Hearing and watching about terror attacks is just hard, how can you murder innocent people like this.

Edited December 20, 2016 by Steele

[Anacybele]

I think it's time the US and Europe teamed up to take down ISIS once and for all. When countries banded together, they managed to take down Hitler and Japan in WWII, didn't they? The US dropping A-bombs on Japan officially ended it, but Germany had already surrendered by then.

The French may not like Americans, and maybe they and Germany don't like each other either. But all three countries have been hit. That article says Belgium was hit as well. Why not set aside our differences and fight to stop this? For all I care, the US can drop more A-bombs. It shut Japan up, maybe it'll defeat ISIS too. Whatever happens, they have to be stopped.

Edited December 20, 2016 by Anacybele

[Moblin Major General]

For all I care, the US can drop more A-bombs. It shut Japan up, maybe it'll defeat ISIS too.

The US bombing Raqqa would be disastrous for our relationship with Syria. Countless countries would denounce it, and many countries might even sanction the US, which would be much more disastrous and limiting than it is to countries like Russia, Iran, and especially North Korea, because even though we disregard many international laws, we make an effort not to be seen as the bad guy, even if it's understandable that many countries feel like we are.

[Anacybele]

The US bombing Raqqa would be disastrous for our relationship with Syria. Countless countries would denounce it, and many countries might even sanction the US, which would be much more disastrous and limiting than it is to countries like Russia, Iran, and especially North Korea, because even though we disregard many international laws, we make an effort not to be seen as the bad guy, even if it's understandable that many countries feel like we are.

What relationship? Right now Syria is our enemy! That's where the terrorists came from. Besides, Dropping A-bombs on Japan hasn't ruined our relationship with them. I don't think we'd be seeing Nintendo games and stuff release here if it did.

Even if it makes us seem like "the bad guy" it may be the only thing we can do. We were probably seen as the "bad guy" when we bombed Hiroshima and Nagasaki, but we still saved many lives in the long run by doing so.

Edited December 20, 2016 by Anacybele

[shadowofchaos]

International relations aren't that simple, Ana.

You need to understand diplomacy. Otherwise you're only going to get ripped apart in this thread.

You're better off praying for the victims of this incident rather than using it as a rallying cry like the SullyMcGully feared politicians would use it as.

Edited December 20, 2016 by shadowofchaos

[Anacybele]

International relations aren't that simple, Ana.

You need to understand diplomacy. Otherwise you're only going to get ripped apart in this thread.

You're better off praying for the victims of this incident rather than using it as a rallying cry like the SullyMcGully feared politicians would use it as.

Please don't discuss things with me, SOC. It never ends well when we do and I don't want anymore trouble.

Edited December 20, 2016 by Anacybele

[shadowofchaos]

Please don't discuss things with me, SOC. It never ends well when we do.

You don't discuss, though. You simply state your opinion and jump on anyone who says things contrary to you.

Regardless, you're being insensitive to the incident and diplomatic relations by generalizing Syria.

Edited December 20, 2016 by shadowofchaos

[Anacybele]

You don't discuss, though. You simply state your opinion and jump on anyone who says things contrary to you.

See, this is exactly what I'm talking about. You just badger me and assume things about me and I argue against it to no avail. So please, leave. Me. Alone.

[Moblin Major General]

What relationship? Right now Syria is our enemy! That's where the terrorists came from. Besides, Dropping A-bombs on Japan hasn't ruined our relationship with them. I don't think we'd be seeing Nintendo games and stuff release here if it did.

Even if it makes us seem like "the bad guy" it may be the only thing we can do. We were probably seen as the "bad guy" when we bombed Hiroshima and Nagasaki, but we still saved many lives in the long run by doing so.

Assad is NOT our enemy. We hate his guts because he's a dictator, but we aren't (officially) at war with him because that would make us hypocrites. And yes, while it was a horrible thing to nuke Hiroshima, the alternatives were far worse, and Japan allowed the US to occupy them so their religion would be intact.

Like shadow said, diplomacy is a complex and fragile process. Without it, the world would be the Middle Ages turned up to 11, and millions would die. I have a mother who advocates the nuclear option, and both me and my sister tell her the obvious disadvantage to using them. It isn't worth the US going from a superpower to a pariah in one press of a button. There are too many countries that depend on us and vice versa.

[Anacybele]

Assad is NOT our enemy. We hate his guts because he's a dictator, but we aren't (officially) at war with him because that would make us hypocrites. And yes, while it was a horrible thing to nuke Hiroshima, the alternatives were far worse, and Japan allowed the US to occupy them so their religion would be intact.

Like shadow said, diplomacy is a complex and fragile process. Without it, the world would be the Middle Ages turned up to 11, and millions would die. I have a mother who advocates the nuclear option, and both me and my sister tell her the obvious disadvantage to using them. It isn't worth the US going from a superpower to a pariah in one press of a button. There are too many countries that depend on us and vice versa.

Okay, the dictator isn't the enemy, but ISIS still is. And how would it make us hypocrites to go to war with them? We'd be trying to stop them from hurting more innocent people in terrorist attacks, we're not attacking them for having different religious beliefs. I'm not trying to argue against your points, I just would like more elaboration on them. Explain more of what you mean here.

And we're still a superpower despite having already used A-bombs once before, so I don't understand why doing so now would make us villains. I'd like this explained too. I just want to understand better.

But if not war, what do you propose then? We can't just let ISIS keep running free and killing people. Negotiating with them is impossible, seeing as Obama already tried it (I don't know why, because why would you even try to negotiate with people like that?).

Edited December 20, 2016 by Anacybele

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

I think it's time the US and Europe teamed up to take down ISIS once and for all. When countries banded together, they managed to take down Hitler and Japan in WWII, didn't they? The US dropping A-bombs on Japan officially ended it, but Germany had already surrendered by then.

Umm... it's not even said yet that the IS is responsible for this attack, so

It hasn't confessed itself.

[Anacybele]

Umm... it's not even said yet that the IS is responsible for this attack, so

It hasn't confessed itself.

The article says evidence points it to being a terror attack though, even if it's not ISIS. Something has to be done about any terrorists so more innocent people don't get hurt.

[Res]

ISIS doesn't exist in a vacuum. Western forces have been interfering in the Middle East for decades; many of the issues stem back nearly a hundred years. With regards to ISIS in particular, the U.S. has a lot to answer for.

Additionally there are plenty of countries the U.S. and other western countries are not officially 'at war' with where western forces have bombed, drone-bombed and funded attacks of their own. There are schools and hospitals that the U.S. has hit that other countries could use as just as much of an excuse to attack the U.S. as the U.S. has here.

[Tryhard]

I bet this will get a lot of political attention pretty soon. I just hope that our leaders are able to respect those affected by this attack as victims of a great tragedy and not as meaningless political props.

It will and they won't, just as always.

Also, ISIS are already on the way to collapse, and dropping atom bombs would do little but convince everyone that being radical against the west is correct, not even getting into how insane using them is in the first place.

Umm... it's not even said yet that the IS is responsible for this attack, so

It hasn't confessed itself.

They'll take credit for it even if they didn't have anything to do with it. Edited December 20, 2016 by Tryhard

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

The article says evidence points it to being a terror attack though, even if it's not ISIS. Something has to be done about any terrorists so more innocent people don't get hurt.

Alright.

Your post just sounded like for me as if it's sure that the IS did this attack, which is not clear.

One person (Syrian) is arrested but it's very doubtful that he's the culprit.

They'll take credit for it even if they didn't have anything to do with it.

Sure, it will because it's obvious.

There are similarities to the attack from Nice.

Same what everyone was thinking at the first moment after the attack in Munich this year which didn't have a terror backround, though.

Edited December 20, 2016 by Eleanor Hume

[Anacybele]

ISIS doesn't exist in a vacuum. Western forces have been interfering in the Middle East for decades; many of the issues stem back nearly a hundred years. With regards to ISIS in particular, the U.S. has a lot to answer for.

You know why we invaded Iraq? Because of an incident known as 9/11. Where 3000 people were killed in one terror attack. 3000. It was carried out by Al Quaeda, an Iraq terrorist group. We wouldn't have had reason to attack if we hadn't been brutally attacked first.

I'm not saying it was the best solution to the problem, but it's definitely understandable why we did it. It's not like we attacked for no reason other than "we hate you" or anything.

Edited December 20, 2016 by Anacybele

[Moblin Major General]

You know why we invaded Iraq? Because of an incident known as 9/11. Where 3000 people were killed in one terror attack. 3000. It was carried out by Al Quaeda, an Iraq terrorist group. We wouldn't have had reason to attack if we hadn't been attacked first.

I'm not saying it was the best solution to the problem, but it's definitely understandable why we did it. It's not like we attacked for no reason other than "we hate you" or anything.

Al Qaeda was a Saudi terrorist group. And we invaded Afghanistan, not Iraq for that reason, when we should've overthrown the House of Saud instead of the Taliban regime. And the Middle East in general sees us as the aggressor, so there's that.

Iraq was invaded because Cheney told Bush that he should finish the job his dad couldn't. It was totally unnecessary, given Saddam would probably have been toppled in the Arab spring.

[Anacybele]

Al Qaeda was a Saudi terrorist group. And we invaded Afghanistan, not Iraq for that reason, when we should've overthrown the House of Saud instead of the Taliban regime. And the Middle East in general sees us as the aggressor, so there's that.

Iraq was invaded because Cheney told Bush that he should finish the job his dad couldn't. It was totally unnecessary, given Saddam would probably have been toppled in the Arab spring.

Oh. Huh. I knew we attacked Afghanistan as well, but I guess I got my reasoning for all this entirely mixed up. It's been awhile since my last history lessons on this stuff, my bad. Thought I knew, but I didn't. >_<

[shadowofchaos]

See, this is exactly what I'm talking about. You just badger me and assume things about me and I argue against it to no avail. So please, leave. Me. Alone.

1. You're in serious discussion. You have no right to silence me when I have legitimate reason to respond to your heavily biased posts. This isn't badgering.

2. You can see other people are already tearing apart your statements. It's not me. Stop focusing on me. The problem is not me. The problem is you can't take criticism.

This is what I was going to say anyway:

Also, ISIS are already on the way to collapse, and dropping atom bombs would do little but convince everyone that being radical against the west is correct, not even getting into how insane using them is in the first place.

Edited December 20, 2016 by shadowofchaos

[Anacybele]

The problem is you can't take criticism.

First, yes I can. Second, this isn't an art or writing thread. Criticism isn't part of this. Discussion/debate is.

People aren't "tearing apart" my statements, they're politely explaining/correcting me. Which I accept. I just admitted I was wrong and that I thought I knew something when I didn't. It happens.

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

I'm wondering how this discussion went to so quickly.

It's not even clear who did this attack.

I think it's rather appropriate to relate on the facts... we don't have many of them yet unfortunately... than to spread rumors and wrong conclusions too early.