Young Marriage

[Jotari]

So the following is an extract from someone's experiences working in a refugee camp in Jordan. I ask you not to share this around as I don't really have permission to do so myself. I haven't been expressly forbidden to but these are real people so please respect that fact (unlike me who's posting it on an internet forum. But you know, the whole do what I say not what I do). Anyway, just want to see what the general consensus is on the matter.

In many ways, I feel like I should have much more patience for Muttab than I do. He is the only one of his family that left Syria when war came, and he lives alone in the camp, which I think is very lonely. As I think I’ve mentioned before, he’s 37 and unmarried, which is essentially a crime in their society. He invariably says things like ‘I had to do my own laundry yesterday and I cook for myself – all because I don’t have a wife’. I tell him I have no intention of doing any future husband’s laundry or all of the cooking. I hate laundry. He assumes I’m joking and laughs a lot. Then recently he told me he was very happy because he had told the woman he ‘loved’ that he liked her and she’d said she liked him back. I congratulate him until he goes into more depth, and the fact that she’s 16 years old emerges…..

I have always tried my best in both camps to keep an open-mind, and usually I take an interest in the Arab culture rather than judging it. I have never criticized any aspect of it in front of anyone in the camps, but when Muttab said his future wife was 16, I think my exact response was ‘well then you’re not marrying her, she’s a child.’ He found my reaction entirely surprising and explained that in his culture it was absolutely fine for a girl of any age to get married as long as she agreed to the match. I said I didn’t care about ‘culture’, I cared that he was 37 and she was still a child. The next time he saw me he made a joke about my over-the-top response to his news…

But Muttab is entirely right about the marriage issue. In their culture, girls can seemingly get married as young as they like as long as everyone agrees to the match. I have 15/16 year old female students in both camps who wear an engagement ring, and don’t really take part in the lessons because they know they will soon be leaving school to get married and have babies. One of my Jordanian colleagues in Azraq is 27 and his mother 44, so I was warned not to be too vocal about the issue even with members of the management (of which he is one).

In a related incident, my eleventh grade girls in Za’atari centre 1 were scrolling through my phone after class the other day when they found pictures of my family. I explained ‘this is my father’, ‘this is my brother’ etc before they found a picture of me with my brother’s long-term girlfriend, Lea. I tried to explain her relationship to me, and asked my co-teacher Thana’a how I could explain the concept of girlfriend. She was horrified that I would even try and asked me not to go near the subject again. Yet two of the girls scrolling through my phone, one aged 15 and one aged 16, are engaged, as if this is what is ‘moral’, whereas a healthy, happy relationship between two people of the same age in their twenties is somehow unspeakably immoral. It’s not that I want to encourage my students to have boyfriends or girlfriends – I have zero interest in influencing their personal lives in this way – more that I don’t see the harm in them picking up some facts about cultures which are not their own.

Edited December 21, 2016 by Jotari

[Flee Fleet!]

Well, as the writer who wrote the extract said, its their culture.

In the Arab culure it's okay to marry someone young, if they accept the proposal. I mean, even young men can propose to an older woman. Although I don't like the idea of marrying someone who's younger than 13, and the child must be mentally prepared, at the very least, of their decision to marry someone older than them.

As for the concept of girlfriends and boyfriends, its not very well liked (in my community at least). Many people prefer to have arranged marriages instead.

In the end, its just culture and customs of people from different countries. I mean, I once heard about some islands where they used to have a baby girl immediately engaged to an older man. And by immediately I mean when they're born. So..yeah.

[X-Naut]

It's an unusual sight, sure, and it can have risky implications in certain situations, but I wouldn't be too disturbed as long as both parties know what they're doing. One piece of information missing is how much of a choice both genders have in getting married, and when. The most I can infer from these passages is that it's expected at some point.

But I'll admit I found the man's complaints about having to do his own cooking and laundry funny because of how "first world problems" it sounded. I can understand it would be a burden if you're spending long days at work, but still.

[Anacybele]

I don't blame you for feeling the way you do about that marriage business, Jotari, I NEVER approved of it either. There's a reason we have different marriage laws, and they're there so children can be children instead of having to worry about ADULT things so early. I feel that having someone, especially females, younger than 18 get married is wrong. Especially if they're younger than 16. I feel it robs them of their childhood and opportunity to finish school. Around here, many high school students drop out if they get pregnant and don't get to go to college for awhile. And teen pregnancy is bad for the baby, it has a higher risk of birth defects, and many eastern cultures don't seem to understand this.

I'm not saying different countries can't have different cultures. There are countries that view the thumbs-up gesture as offensive. Or the peace sign as offensive. That's fine, it doesn't hurt no one. But some cultural differences are hazardous to people's health or even downright cruel at times and it's a shame.

I hate the idea of arranged marriages even more. They can hurt more than help too. I don't want to be forced to marry some guy I just met. For all I know, he'll be an abusive shit later.

Edited December 21, 2016 by Anacybele

[Jotari]

I don't blame you for feeling the way you do about that marriage business, Jotari, I NEVER approved of it either. There's a reason we have different marriage laws, and they're there so children can be children instead of having to worry about ADULT things so early. I feel that having someone, especially females, younger than 18 get married is wrong. Especially if they're younger than 16. I feel it robs them of their childhood and opportunity to finish school. Around here, many high school students drop out if they get pregnant and don't get to go to college for awhile. And teen pregnancy is bad for the baby, it has a higher risk of birth defects, and many eastern cultures don't seem to understand this.

I'm not saying different countries can't have different cultures. There are countries that view the thumbs-up gesture as offensive. Or the peace sign as offensive. That's fine, it doesn't hurt no one. But some cultural differences are hazardous to people's health or even downright cruel at times and it's a shame.

I hate the idea of arranged marriages even more. They can hurt more than help too. I don't want to be forced to marry some guy I just met. For all I know, he'll be an abusive shit later.

Cool. But just for the record, I haven't expressed any opinion on this myself yet.

Edited December 21, 2016 by Jotari

[Anacybele]

Cool. But just for the record, I haven't expressed any opinion on this myself yet.

Huh? You seemed to imply in your OP that you didn't approve of that 37 year old guy marrying a 16 year old girl. Sorry if I misunderstood. >_<

[Jotari]

Huh? You seemed to imply in your OP that you didn't approve of that 37 year old guy marrying a 16 year old girl. Sorry if I misunderstood. >_<

The story in the OP isn't mine. It's just a first hand source I've brought up for the purpose of discussion.

[Anacybele]

The story in the OP isn't mine. It's just a first hand source I've brought up for the purpose of discussion.

OH, dang my bad again. I misunderstood the first paragraph in the OP big time. Sorry again. >_<

[Phoenix Wright]

i found this out recently, but my teta (grandma) was married my to my gido when she was 13 and he was in his early 20s, both from amman (i think). i think it was gross, but indeed it's the culture.

i would rather this cultural aspect progress to modern times.

Edited December 21, 2016 by Phoenix Wright

[Tetragrammaton]

NO one said about money or economic.

In those cultures, it's not common that a girl or woman cannot get a decent job to support herself (or support a whole family), the source of money always comes from the father or the husband.

Because of that:

1. The girl family always try to get her married as soon as possible to cut the cost. That's why they get married when still very young, at a teenager. An unmarried girl at 20-30s will be considered a huge problem.

2. The man, if he's not from a rich family, won't get married until he saves enough money to raise a whole new family, he won't be young anymore by then. At this time, there won't be 30-40s unmarried girl for him, or he won't choose such an old bride because she must has some serious problem so everyone stays away from her.

About the boyfriend girlfriend relationship, if the girl cannot earn enough money to afford herself, starting such a relationship always means suicide.

Either she'll be killed by her family, by her father or brother, or she'll be abandoned completely, no family, no job, no money, nothing, her boyfriend cannot help her in anyway.

Edited December 21, 2016 by hanhnn

[Anacybele]

If they won't let women get jobs there, that's their fault. We let women get all kinds of jobs here, and behold, we don't have the "problems" those cultures do.

[Rezzy]

I think there's a distinction to be made for the term "child bride", because there's a big difference between a 16 year old and a 10 year old getting married. If anything, I think we wait a little too long to get married and have kids nowadays. Having a kid at 16 is a lot healthier than having one at 42. Even a hundred years ago, people married a lot younger. Heck, my cousin gave birth at 16 this year, and I have a sister-in-law who was 14. At least being married is preferable to being a single mom.

I personally think early 20's is the ideal time to get married, but biologically late teenage years are fine. I'm not a fan of huge age gaps between husband and wife, though. And I absolutely believe both parties should be consenting to the marriage.

[eclipse]

I think there's a distinction to be made for the term "child bride", because there's a big difference between a 16 year old and a 10 year old getting married. If anything, I think we wait a little too long to get married and have kids nowadays. Having a kid at 16 is a lot healthier than having one at 42. Even a hundred years ago, people married a lot younger. Heck, my cousin gave birth at 16 this year, and I have a sister-in-law who was 14. At least being married is preferable to being a single mom.

I personally think early 20's is the ideal time to get married, but biologically late teenage years are fine. I'm not a fan of huge age gaps between husband and wife, though. And I absolutely believe both parties should be consenting to the marriage.

Marriage is more than just having kids. The human brain is still developing during adolescence, and I'd rather people wait until they're done with that before considering something as life-changing as marriage. Source.

[Rezzy]

Marriage is more than just having kids. The human brain is still developing during adolescence, and I'd rather people wait until they're done with that before considering something as life-changing as marriage. Source.

I would say that having kids is more life-changing than marriage. At least for me, my life changed a lot more after having kids than it did after getting married.

I understand the brain isn't fully developed until well into your 20's, but your body is also in a fight against the clock, when planning to have a family, which is something to take into consideration. There's only a ~7 year window where your brain and body are both ideal for having kids, and if you want more than 2, you should start well before then. I don't think getting married at 16 is the best idea, but it can still be justified scientifically, not to mention culturally. Getting married well before 30 was the rule rather than the exception over the course of most human history. Humans are just a weird species where our bodies and minds don't sync up well for reproductive purposes.

Under the right circumstances, I see no issue getting married and starting a family at 18.

Edited December 22, 2016 by Rezzy

[eclipse]

I would say that having kids is more life-changing than marriage. At least for me, my life changed a lot more after having kids than it did after getting married.

One doesn't need to have kids to be married, and vice versa. They're both very big issues. However, my post was to point out that we humans are physically able to have kids before our brains are fully developed. Whether this is a bad thing or not is up for discussion.

Since marriage is a social construct, we're also able to be married before our brains are fully developed.

Edited December 22, 2016 by eggclipse

[Rezzy]

One doesn't need to have kids to be married, and vice versa. They're both very big issues. However, my post was to point out that we humans are physically able to have kids before our brains are fully developed. Whether this is a bad thing or not is up for discussion.

Since marriage is a social construct, we're also able to be married before our brains are fully developed.

You don't need to be married to have kids, but I think it's ideal. Not to say it has to be a traditional marriage. I'm for gay and lesbian couples being able to adopt kids, and even wanted to myself, back when I was in a relationship like that. I can't imagine trying to raise a kid alone, and kids deserve to have two loving parents, if possible.

The problem with mental maturity is knowing where to draw the line. As stated, full mental maturity doesn't happen until mid to late 20's, although some people, like your article say early 20's. But in most cases, we have to go for "mature enough" to make decisions. In the USA, we have that cut-off at 18 for pretty much every legal decision, including marriage. Sure, a 30 year old will probably make better, more informed decisions than an 18 year old, but we need to draw the line somewhere.

In many places, teenagers below 18 start having sex. Not everybody should, but they can, and if they're mature enough for it, I don't have an issue. I honestly think most kids aren't ready for sex at 16, but some are. If there is a mature for their age person having sex at 16 and is ready for the implications for that, it stands to reason that there are also mature-for-their age 16 years olds that are ready for marriage. The problem with laws is that they must take into account the ends of the bell-curve, or they restrict people from something that they are mature enough for and entitled to.

If I were Empress of the world, I would make 16 the minimum age of consent, as well as minimum age for marriage. You're mature enough to be trusted with driving a car and working a job in most areas at that age. Once again, with the caveat that most kids aren't ready at that age, but for the ones that are, it needs to be something that's an option.

[Anacybele]

I disagree, having a kid at 16 is just as bad as having one at 42. Like I said, the risk of birth defects and stuff is much higher in a teen pregnancy because their bodies are still developing and maturing. They're not really mature enough to have a child properly, despite menstruation being able to start much earlier. This is what I was taught all throughout school, anyway, and I've seen stories about teens who gave birth to babies with defects and also stillbirths and premies. And also like I said, these teen moms usually can't finish school because they have a kid to care for. They drop out and are forced to get a high school equivalent instead of an actual high school degree. This I know from family history, because my grandma dropped out after having a baby at 16 and she never officially graduated high school because of it.

Having kids in your twenties to early thirties is the best and healthiest idea. Although I would be a bit more lenient and have the minimum age of marriage/consent be 18. The risks I mentioned above are really only truly notable below that.

Edited December 22, 2016 by Anacybele

[Anacybele]

WTF? This duplicate post wasn't here when I was editing...

Edited December 22, 2016 by Anacybele

[Rezzy]

I disagree, having a kid at 16 is just as bad as having one at 42. Like I said, the risk of birth defects and stuff is much higher in a teen pregnancy because their bodies are still developing and maturing. They're not really mature enough to have a child properly, despite menstruation being able to start much earlier. This is what I was taught all throughout school, anyway, and I've seen stories about teens who gave birth to babies with defects and also stillbirths and premies. And also like I said, these teen moms usually can't finish school because they have a kid to care for. They drop out and are forced to get a high school equivalent instead of an actual high school degree. This I know from family history, because my grandma dropped out after having a baby at 16 and she never officially graduated high school because of it.

Having kids in your twenties to early thirties is the best and healthiest idea. Although I would be a bit more lenient and have the minimum age of marriage/consent be 18. The risks I mentioned above are really only truly notable below that.

16 can have some health issues, but it's still much safer than having kids in your 40s. The ideal age, body-wise is ~18-35. My opinion was formed from years of majoring in biology and going through med school, as well as participating in prenatal care and births during residency. I hope not to sound condescending, I just have a lot of experience in this area.

18 is already the highest age for consent in the USA, but it's lower in most states.

I don't advocate for marrying young, I just think it's something that should be allowed. Sort of how I don't think most 18 year olds should be drinking, but I think it's something they should be allowed to do.

Edited December 22, 2016 by Rezzy

[Anacybele]

16 can have some health issues, but it's still much safer than having kids in your 40s. The ideal age, body-wise is ~18-35. My opinion was formed from years of majoring in biology and going through med school, as well as participating in prenatal care and births during residency. I hope not to sound condescending, I just have a lot of experience in this area.

18 is already the highest age for consent in the USA, but it's lower in most states.

I don't advocate for marrying young, I just think it's something that should be allowed. Sort of how I don't think most 18 year olds should be drinking, but I think it's something they should be allowed to do.

Forgive me, but I feel like you're contradicting yourself here. You say marrying young and drinking at 18 should be allowed, but you don't approve of it at all? I'm completely confused here. Also, at 40, you're risking Down Syndrome. At 16, you're risking more serious defects, even miscarriage and stillbirth. How is that better?

Also, our drinking age is 21 because that is generally when the brain is fully developed. Alcohol has a worse effect on brains below that age. I was taught this in school as well.

Edited December 22, 2016 by Anacybele

[Rezzy]

Forgive me, but I feel like you're contradicting yourself here. You say marrying young and drinking at 18 should be allowed, but you don't approve of it at all? I'm completely confused here. Also, at 40, you're risking Down Syndrome. At 16, you're risking more serious defects, even miscarriage and stillbirth. How is that better?

Also, our drinking age is 21 because that is generally when the brain is fully developed. Alcohol has a worse effect on brains below that age. I was taught this in school as well.

It sort of goes with my libertarian views. I don't think it's the best idea, but feel it should still be legal, and there is a sizable portion of the population that is mature enough to justify it being legal. I feel that most things should be legal, if there's not a compelling benefit to society by making them illegal. I thin morality is something the government shouldn't be in the business of legislating.

There's always a risk of birth defects, but the risk isn't so high at 16 to disallow it. At 16, it's more the brain, and not the body that isn't ready for children.

[eclipse]

You don't need to be married to have kids, but I think it's ideal. Not to say it has to be a traditional marriage. I'm for gay and lesbian couples being able to adopt kids, and even wanted to myself, back when I was in a relationship like that. I can't imagine trying to raise a kid alone, and kids deserve to have two loving parents, if possible.

The problem with mental maturity is knowing where to draw the line. As stated, full mental maturity doesn't happen until mid to late 20's, although some people, like your article say early 20's. But in most cases, we have to go for "mature enough" to make decisions. In the USA, we have that cut-off at 18 for pretty much every legal decision, including marriage. Sure, a 30 year old will probably make better, more informed decisions than an 18 year old, but we need to draw the line somewhere.

In many places, teenagers below 18 start having sex. Not everybody should, but they can, and if they're mature enough for it, I don't have an issue. I honestly think most kids aren't ready for sex at 16, but some are. If there is a mature for their age person having sex at 16 and is ready for the implications for that, it stands to reason that there are also mature-for-their age 16 years olds that are ready for marriage. The problem with laws is that they must take into account the ends of the bell-curve, or they restrict people from something that they are mature enough for and entitled to.

If I were Empress of the world, I would make 16 the minimum age of consent, as well as minimum age for marriage. You're mature enough to be trusted with driving a car and working a job in most areas at that age. Once again, with the caveat that most kids aren't ready at that age, but for the ones that are, it needs to be something that's an option.

And you don't have to have kids if you're married. Some people can't, and some choose not to, and that is okay.

However, the marriage portion isn't just a matter of slapping two people together and calling it a day. There's a lot of work involved on both sides, and I think a lot of people aren't mentally ready for that (age nonwithstanding). From a straight scientific point of view, I think telling girls that their value is in their marriage does more harm than good, which brings us back to the first post. In order to address that issues, a cultural shift needs to happen over there - one that treats both sexes as people, not one as a financial burden. Give both sexes the opportunity to live life single/married/whatever, without shaming them for their choice. Only then will I even consider whether or not someone half my age is mentally fit to be married.

[Jotari]

i found this out recently, but my teta (grandma) was married my to my gido when she was 13 and he was in his early 20s, both from amman (i think). i think it was gross, but indeed it's the culture.

i would rather this cultural aspect progress to modern times.

I'm not familiar with the terms teeta and gido (and google doesn't really provide anything either). Are those personal terms for you? Because in Chinese the language specifies which grandparent your talking about (as in maternal or paternal) when talking about them. That's something I'd like English to adopt so if there's some obscure archaic term that does do that I'm totally on board.

NO one said about money or economic.

In those cultures, it's not common that a girl or woman cannot get a decent job to support herself (or support a whole family), the source of money always comes from the father or the husband.

Because of that:

1. The girl family always try to get her married as soon as possible to cut the cost. That's why they get married when still very young, at a teenager. An unmarried girl at 20-30s will be considered a huge problem.

2. The man, if he's not from a rich family, won't get married until he saves enough money to raise a whole new family, he won't be young anymore by then. At this time, there won't be 30-40s unmarried girl for him, or he won't choose such an old bride because she must has some serious problem so everyone stays away from her.

About the boyfriend girlfriend relationship, if the girl cannot earn enough money to afford herself, starting such a relationship always means suicide.

Either she'll be killed by her family, by her father or brother, or she'll be abandoned completely, no family, no job, no money, nothing, her boyfriend cannot help her in anyway.

Another piece from the same series of emails as the one I took the OP from details the situation of a 16 year old boy who believes he has to get married. He has a six person family and in the refugee camp that entitles them to have one "hut" which is basically a single room for them all to live in. If they have seven people in their family then they are allowed two huts. So the only option is for him (the eldest child) to get married, the father to take a second wife (which the mother really doesn't want) or the mother to have a fifth baby long past the period where it's safe. Pretty shit situation overall but I can think of plenty of worse reasons to get married.

I disagree, having a kid at 16 is just as bad as having one at 42. Like I said, the risk of birth defects and stuff is much higher in a teen pregnancy because their bodies are still developing and maturing. They're not really mature enough to have a child properly, despite menstruation being able to start much earlier. This is what I was taught all throughout school, anyway, and I've seen stories about teens who gave birth to babies with defects and also stillbirths and premies. And also like I said, these teen moms usually can't finish school because they have a kid to care for. They drop out and are forced to get a high school equivalent instead of an actual high school degree. This I know from family history, because my grandma dropped out after having a baby at 16 and she never officially graduated high school because of it.

Having kids in your twenties to early thirties is the best and healthiest idea. Although I would be a bit more lenient and have the minimum age of marriage/consent be 18. The risks I mentioned above are really only truly notable below that.

Ana brings up a very important point that I think Rezzy kind of glossed over. People in their teens that end up getting pregnant commonly drop out of education. Taking this as a standard of culture undoubtedly leads to a less educated society which is one of the biggest factors in how poor a country tends to be.

Edited December 22, 2016 by Jotari

[Rezzy]

I'm not familiar with the terms teeta and gido (and google doesn't really provide anything either). Are those personal terms for you? Because in Chinese the language specifies which grandparent your talking about (as in maternal or paternal) when talking about them. That's something I'd like English to adopt so if there's some obscure archaic term that does do that I'm totally on board.

Another piece from the same series of emails as the one I took the OP from details the situation of a 16 year old boy who believes he has to get married. He has a six person family and in the refugee camp that entitles them to have one "hut" which is basically a single room for them all to live in. If they have seven people in their family then they are allowed two huts. So the only option is for him, the eldest to get married, the father to take a second wife (which the mother really doesn't want) or the mother to have a sixth baby long past the period where it's safe. Pretty shit situation overall but I can think of plenty of worse reasons to get married.

Ana brings up a very important point that I think rezzy kind of glossed over. People in their teens that end up getting pregnant commonly drop out of education. Taking this as a standard of culture undoubtedly leads to a less educated society which is one of the biggest factors in how poor a country tends to be.

I look at the dropping out of education from a different point of view. I think education should be more accommodating to parents in general, not just high school, but post secondary education.

Take me for example. After high school, you have four years of college, followed by four years of med school, followed by a minimum three years of residency, many are several more years, not to mention if you want to take a fellowship after that.

So by the time you're done with education as a practicing doctor, you're in your 30's. I had two kids during this time. It's tough, but doable. I honestly think doctors are over educated, and going into med school with an associates degree should become the norm. I was beyond burned out by the time I graduated.

I don't like kids being forced into marriage. I was tackling the idea from a broader perspective.

[Res]

I agree with Rezzy.

There's a huge difference between encouraging best practices and placing best practices into law, of course. Getting 16 year olds to abstain from sex is an entirely futile process; giving them opportunities and making education more accessible to all are your best bets. A 16 year old whose ambitions are set on college and a career is far more likely to be cautious and, in the event of contraception failing, is more likely to find a way to work around it (I know a couple of people who did wind up pregnant at 16 through contraception failure, but continued with their education).

In other words, it's not that society that has a high teen marriage/pregnancy rate leads to a poorly educated populace, but that a society that places low emphasis on further education sees higher teen marriage/pregnancy rates.

And yes, I'd love to see education made more accessible to parents! I know my college offered daycare, which was successful, and flexible schedules/evening classes are another way to make secondary education more accessible.

(Btw, Rezzy, the U.K. doesn't have a degree requirement for medical or veterinary school. You can enter either at 18 - there are still entrance requirements, of course).