Young Marriage

[Rezzy]

I agree with Rezzy.

There's a huge difference between encouraging best practices and placing best practices into law, of course. Getting 16 year olds to abstain from sex is an entirely futile process; giving them opportunities and making education more accessible to all are your best bets. A 16 year old whose ambitions are set on college and a career is far more likely to be cautious and, in the event of contraception failing, is more likely to find a way to work around it (I know a couple of people who did wind up pregnant at 16 through contraception failure, but continued with their education).

In other words, it's not that society that has a high teen marriage/pregnancy rate leads to a poorly educated populace, but that a society that places low emphasis on further education sees higher teen marriage/pregnancy rates.

And yes, I'd love to see education made more accessible to parents! I know my college offered daycare, which was successful, and flexible schedules/evening classes are another way to make secondary education more accessible.

(Btw, Rezzy, the U.K. doesn't have a degree requirement for medical or veterinary school. You can enter either at 18 - there are still entrance requirements, of course).

I definitely think focusing on education on the middle east would do wonders for the region. Then the well educated girls can decide for themselves when they want to marry.

@ your last paragraph, I have heard different countries had different requirements, and would prefer it that way, but I'm only familiar with the US version, unfortunately. I think having an extra 2-4 years would give a lot more flexibility, especially for people who take a year off. I often felt like I was delaying "becoming an adult" by being in school forever, but it was my only option for my chosen career path.

To be honest, I took a lot of the same classes over again in med school that I did in undergrad, like anatomy, biochemistry, and the like. Sure, it's more advanced, but I don't think the extra 2-4 years of schooling was really necessary. Not to mention the cost in student loans.

[Jotari]

Guy in my college course had a kid in first year which he had to end up repeating. I think he was heavily considering dropping out but the college really pushed for him to continue and helped him out in a lot of ways. He ended up getting the best results in the class at the end of fourth year. Not sure how useful the information is for further discussion but it's something I wanted to highlight since it's a story that makes me happy.

Edited December 22, 2016 by Jotari

[Phoenix Wright]

I'm not familiar with the terms teeta and gido (and google doesn't really provide anything either). Are those personal terms for you? Because in Chinese the language specifies which grandparent your talking about (as in maternal or paternal) when talking about them. That's something I'd like English to adopt so if there's some obscure archaic term that does do that I'm totally on board.

it's arabic. arabic might have specific terms for whether it's mom or dad's side (aunt and uncles work that way), but my dad was irish/other european things so i'm not sure. my guess is it doesn't, though.

[Flee Fleet!]

I don't blame you for feeling the way you do about that marriage business, Jotari, I NEVER approved of it either. There's a reason we have different marriage laws, and they're there so children can be children instead of having to worry about ADULT things so early. I feel that having someone, especially females, younger than 18 get married is wrong. Especially if they're younger than 16. I feel it robs them of their childhood and opportunity to finish school. Around here, many high school students drop out if they get pregnant and don't get to go to college for awhile. And teen pregnancy is bad for the baby, it has a higher risk of birth defects, and many eastern cultures don't seem to understand this.

I'm not saying different countries can't have different cultures. There are countries that view the thumbs-up gesture as offensive. Or the peace sign as offensive. That's fine, it doesn't hurt no one. But some cultural differences are hazardous to people's health or even downright cruel at times and it's a shame.

I hate the idea of arranged marriages even more. They can hurt more than help too. I don't want to be forced to marry some guy I just met. For all I know, he'll be an abusive shit later.

Not necessarily. Most arranged marriages aren't forced. It's mainly choosing from an array of proposals (hope I'm using the right word) from different families, who want their son/daughter to marry the son/daughter of the family they sent the proposal to. And the couple will most likely develop their love for each other. After all, my parents had an arranged marriage and they're both happy with each other.

Although, in the poorer communities (at least in my country), some people are forced to give their daughters to some rich guy for marriage, because said rich guy threatens them to. It's a problem, thus it pefectly defines a forced marriage.

Edited December 22, 2016 by Flee Fleet!

[Jotari]

Plenty of people also get married through non arranged means and it turns out to be completely awful for everyone involved. Personally I was kind of leaning towards its completely fine for 16 year olds to tie the knot when I first started this thread but now I'm kind of looking at it with the perspective of, "How well can you really know someone at 16?" In all likelihood you've either known them for less than two or three years, or since childhood. In either case I see that as quite problematic to pledge yourself to someone for life. I think rushing into marriage is severely increasing the chance of serious problems arising. And on the flip side marrying someone you've known your whole life without ever having a serious relationship with someone else, well I haven't done any research but just from my instinct that sounds like its going to lead to dependency issues. If you're really certain then I think waiting two years until reaching the arbitrarily decided age for adulthood of 18. Of course that's only looking at it from a perspective of genuine heartfelt desire. The whole economical and social aspect is an entirely different kettle of fish which thankfully most of us in the developed world don't need to worry about.

Edited December 22, 2016 by Jotari

[Anacybele]

I disagree that doctors should be less educated. Rezzy, I'm surprised you would say this since you're a doctor yourself. You should know as well as anyone that in may scenarios, a patient's very life is put in a doctor's hands, even if that doctor isn't a surgeon or some such like that. For example, the medicines they prescribe. They have to know the right ones and the right doses to write down, or else they could kill their patients. Or the treatments they give to patients who are staying in a hospital. They have VERY important jobs that mean life for many people. I would rather have a doctor with a master's degree be my personal doctor than one with just an associates degree because the former doctor has had more education and training.

If a doctor can't find the time to care for their own children, that's unfortunate. But they wanted to be a doctor and it was their choice.

[Rezzy]

I disagree that doctors should be less educated. Rezzy, I'm surprised you would say this since you're a doctor yourself. You should know as well as anyone that in may scenarios, a patient's very life is put in a doctor's hands, even if that doctor isn't a surgeon or some such like that. For example, the medicines they prescribe. They have to know the right ones and the right doses to write down, or else they could kill their patients. Or the treatments they give to patients who are staying in a hospital. They have VERY important jobs that mean life for many people. I would rather have a doctor with a master's degree be my personal doctor than one with just an associates degree because the former doctor has had more education and training.

If a doctor can't find the time to care for their own children, that's unfortunate. But they wanted to be a doctor and it was their choice.

Doctors would still go through actual medical school, which is more than enough for proper training. My main issue is requiring a bachelor's degree to get into med school in the first place. Often people don't even major in the sciences. I don't see how having a degree in literature makes you a more competent doctor.

[Anacybele]

Doctors would still go through actual medical school, which is more than enough for proper training. My main issue is requiring a bachelor's degree to get into med school in the first place. Often people don't even major in the sciences. I don't see how having a degree in literature makes you a more competent doctor.

In that case, yeah, getting a literature degree would be useless. I'd say they should be required to major in certain sciences to be a doctor then.

[Yojinbo]

[...] we don't have the "problems" those cultures do.

Which would be ... ?

[Anacybele]

Did you read the post above that one at all? It mentions things like unmarried girls in their 20s and 30s being problems while they're not problems here and such. :/

[Phoenix Wright]

Doctors would still go through actual medical school, which is more than enough for proper training. My main issue is requiring a bachelor's degree to get into med school in the first place. Often people don't even major in the sciences. I don't see how having a degree in literature makes you a more competent doctor.

In that case, yeah, getting a literature degree would be useless. I'd say they should be required to major in certain sciences to be a doctor then.

http://www.usnews.com/education/blogs/medical-school-admissions-doctor/2013/09/11/choose-the-right-undergraduate-major-for-medical-school

the purpose for a bachelor's degree is 2-fold, a sign of readiness and a sign of personal growth and development. going to med school straight out of high school would likely a nightmare for all involved.

i do think gen eds are mostly a scam and if they didn't exist (or were changed to better fit the students needs and wants), students could cut undergrad time by at least a year and perhaps even 2-2.5 years.

edit: actually read your post and you mentioned getting an associates degree at least. i'd be willing to test this, and if over say 5-10 years we don't see a downward trend in med school ability then i'd be for it.

Edited December 22, 2016 by Phoenix Wright

[Res]

Not necessarily. Most arranged marriages aren't forced. It's mainly choosing from an array of proposals (hope I'm using the right word) from different families, who want their son/daughter to marry the son/daughter of the family they sent the proposal to. And the couple will most likely develop their love for each other. After all, my parents had an arranged marriage and they're both happy with each other.

Yes; there's a huge difference between arranged marriage and forced marriage.

An ex-coworker of mine had had an arranged marriage; she didn't want the fuss of dating, and she trusted her parents' judgement. She's been very happily married for a number of years.

http://www.usnews.com/education/blogs/medical-school-admissions-doctor/2013/09/11/choose-the-right-undergraduate-major-for-medical-school

Pretty much all (maybe all? This link states all) of Europe doesn't require any formal education beyond high school level to gain entry to medical school. Unless you want to argue that all European doctors are inferior to American doctors...

[Phoenix Wright]

i don't know close to enough about european education to make a call for how it should work there. awhile ago i was thinking of applying to a few graduate schools in the uk and western europe but they literally said "you probably won't be accepted unless [extra info]," because physics students only need 3-4 years of grad school to earn a phd. you need 4-6 in the united states. we're prepared differently.

Edited December 22, 2016 by Phoenix Wright

[Res]

i don't know close to enough about european education to make a call for how it should work there. awhile ago i was thinking of applying to a few graduate schools in the uk and western europe but they literally said "you probably won't be accepted unless [extra info]," because physics students only need 3-4 years of grad school to earn a phd. you need 4-6 in the united states. we're prepared differently.

I do agree that students are prepared very differently. I suppose I was arguing that it's not impossible for 18 year olds to enter medical school and do well, given the right secondary education. But yes, it would require an overhaul of the U.S. high school system, I think.

[Anacybele]

Pretty much all (maybe all? This link states all) of Europe doesn't require any formal education beyond high school level to gain entry to medical school. Unless you want to argue that all European doctors are inferior to American doctors...

Doesn't the US have the best health care though? I know I've heard this somewhere before.

[Thane]

Doesn't the US have the best health care though? I know I've heard this somewhere before.

Best health care how? I'm sure you've got very competent doctors, but as a European I must say your system frightens me. If memory serves, it's one of, if not THE most expensive health care systems in the world, making it hard for people to get the treatment they need.

Edit: according to Wikipedia, in terms of quality of the health care - the criteria being living five years after being treated for cancer - America ranks fifth.

Edited December 22, 2016 by Thane

[Res]

Doesn't the US have the best health care though? I know I've heard this somewhere before.

That's debatable, and dependent on factors unrelated to the actual skill of doctors. For example, in countries with public health care (which is most of Europe), many courses of treatment are deemed too risky or expensive to be made available to all. The one advantage the U.S. has is that doctors are often able to order additional tests or give experimental drugs (if the patient is able to pay, of course).

[Shin]

Doesn't the US have the best health care though? I know I've heard this somewhere before.

Actually, the US has one of the most inefficient healthcare services in the world. Despite spending the most per capita, the World Health Organisation (an international body for healthcare) ranked it 31st in the world. If people have money, they're generally fine, and charged up the wazoo, but a lot of the population simply don't have access to proper healthcare. It's not just about having money, it's about utilising it and maintaining public health to avoid having to treat people.

[Anacybele]

Actually, the US has one of the most inefficient healthcare services in the world. Despite spending the most per capita, the World Health Organisation (an international body for healthcare) ranked it 31st in the world. If people have money, they're generally fine, and charged up the wazoo, but a lot of the population simply don't have access to proper healthcare. It's not just about having money, it's about utilising it and maintaining public health to avoid having to treat people.

Actually, I wasn't talking about the service. Yes, the service has been bad.

But in terms of what medicine and treatments we have available, I don't think any other country is on par. For example, we had the least number of ebola and swine flu deaths of anybody when they had epidemics, probably by a lot. We just have the best medicine and treatment tech.

Edited December 22, 2016 by Anacybele

[Thane]

Actually, I wasn't talking about the service. Yes, the service has been bad.

But in terms of what medicine and treatments we have available, I don't think any other country is on par.

Like I said in my edited message, America ranks fifth.

[Rezzy]

For requiring a Bachelor's Degree, that means that to be a practicing doctor, you will be a minimum of 29 years old. To contrast, you can be a member of the House of Representatives at age 25. So it takes a lower level of mental maturity for running the government than it does for caring for the sick and injured.

There would still be plenty of people who went for associate or bachelors degrees before med school, but for people who knew what they wanted, going straight from high school could be an option. I graduated Summa Cum Laude and am a member of Phi Beta Kappa, but really, undergrad was just an unnecessary step towards my true goal.

Another problem is that often you tailor for bach degree towards med school, and if you don't get into med school, you're left to try to figure out what to do with your degree. If you applied out of high school, you could at least go with your back up plan sooner and maybe get a different degree, if one at all.

Say you want to be a doctor, but if that didn't work out, you wouldn't mind being a nurse. Under the current system, you waste a couple years, since you could have had your nursing degree in the time it took to get a bach degree in the first place. My sister got her associates degree in 2 years, then became an RN 2 years after that.

[Anacybele]

Like I said in my edited message, America ranks fifth.

Still ranks above Europe according to it though.

[Thane]

Still ranks above Europe according to it though.

I'm sorry, is this some kind of competition?

[Anacybele]

I'm sorry, is this some kind of competition?

Uh, no, someone, I believe it was Res, was saying earlier that European doctors don't require anything more than high school education to get into med school, but that this doesn't make them inferior to US doctors. But from what you posted, it looks like it does make them inferior.

[Thane]

Uh, no, someone, I believe it was Res, was saying earlier that European doctors don't require anything more than high school education to get into med school, but that this doesn't make them inferior to US doctors. But from what you posted, it looks like it does make them inferior.

I have absolutely no idea how to respond to this.