Dream Smashers - Micaiah.

[Troykv]

Hello everyone, some days ago an small article I wrote was finally published in Source Gaming.

This article is about "How would work Micaiah in Smash Bros?".

You can read it here: http://sourcegaming.info/2016/12/22/ds-micaiah/

What do you think? Do you like it? Do you have a question about the moveset or my reasons to write this article?

Edited December 25, 2016 by Troykv

[Augestein]

I think that Micaiah should have been in Brawl to be honest. I'll be honest, I think choosing Ike as a character was a huge mistake. If Fire Emblem were to have characters that were representing the franchise, they should have had one for at least each of the weapon types. Even if this meant abandoning the notion of having "main" characters, it would have been healthier for the Smash roster and probably had Smash fans more receptive to their inclusion in the first place. Take someone like Corrin for instance, instead of having yet another sword user, they should have had Corrin focus more on the dragonstone abilities and anima magic from the Nohr promotion. Lucina was also a horrible choice to be anything more than a skin.

Marth is fine as the main icon of the series. That much is true, he's the OG Lord and a representation of that aspect. Roy I was fine with being cut. If he was introduced in Smash 4 again that'd have been fine if he weren't DLC. As DLC he's pretty disappointing IMO. Micaiah would have been an excellent choice for Brawl. She was relevant, she has an extremely unique look to her (there's no other white haired characters in the roster really and the only other magical character we have is Zelda). Had we gotten Micaiah, I don't think people would have pushed nearly as hard for Robin considering that Robin is just a magical swordsman hybrid, and we already have a sword user and a magic user. That said, I see nothing wrong with Robin's inclusion in Smash 4. That would have been 1 newcomer each game, with 1 cut. Nothing wrong with that.

The issue with the main characters of Fire Emblem is that many of them use swords as their primary weapon type (even if they can use others). This is why Micaiah should have been chosen in my opinion. Not only would she have been a better advertisement for Radiant Dawn-- seriously, that was a lousy idea, because if an ignorant person gets RD, the first thing they are going to feel is confusion as to where Ike is even if he's actually in the game. In Smash 4, it was obnoxious because 1 was a clone of Marth when we introduced skins, and 2 were DLC-- one of which was an old character-- revamped moveset or not, that was pretty lame.

At this point it's kinda hard to drop Ike as he's been around for 2 games (technically 3 if you count the 3DS), so he may as well stay. I think it might be a bit too late for Micaiah to make a comeback. She's in the same boat as Chrom unfortunately.

Edited December 26, 2016 by Augestein

[eclipse]

As this leans more towards Smash than FE, I'm moving this to the Smash boards.

[vanguard333]

I think it sounds really cool, though, for Thani, to reflect that it is essentially a magic rapier in-game, would have added a gimmick that the spell launches opponents further the heavier they are, rather than less far.

[Radiant head]

i think we need some kind of fighting game that's dedicated to fire emblem characters

[Troykv]

I think that Micaiah should have been in Brawl to be honest. I'll be honest, I think choosing Ike as a character was a huge mistake. If Fire Emblem were to have characters that were representing the franchise, they should have had one for at least each of the weapon types. Even if this meant abandoning the notion of having "main" characters, it would have been healthier for the Smash roster and probably had Smash fans more receptive to their inclusion in the first place. Take someone like Corrin for instance, instead of having yet another sword user, they should have had Corrin focus more on the dragonstone abilities and anima magic from the Nohr promotion. Lucina was also a horrible choice to be anything more than a skin.

Marth is fine as the main icon of the series. That much is true, he's the OG Lord and a representation of that aspect. Roy I was fine with being cut. If he was introduced in Smash 4 again that'd have been fine if he weren't DLC. As DLC he's pretty disappointing IMO. Micaiah would have been an excellent choice for Brawl. She was relevant, she has an extremely unique look to her (there's no other white haired characters in the roster really and the only other magical character we have is Zelda). Had we gotten Micaiah, I don't think people would have pushed nearly as hard for Robin considering that Robin is just a magical swordsman hybrid, and we already have a sword user and a magic user. That said, I see nothing wrong with Robin's inclusion in Smash 4. That would have been 1 newcomer each game, with 1 cut. Nothing wrong with that.

The issue with the main characters of Fire Emblem is that many of them use swords as their primary weapon type (even if they can use others). This is why Micaiah should have been chosen in my opinion. Not only would she have been a better advertisement for Radiant Dawn-- seriously, that was a lousy idea, because if an ignorant person gets RD, the first thing they are going to feel is confusion as to where Ike is even if he's actually in the game. In Smash 4, it was obnoxious because 1 was a clone of Marth when we introduced skins, and 2 were DLC-- one of which was an old character-- revamped moveset or not, that was pretty lame.

At this point it's kinda hard to drop Ike as he's been around for 2 games (technically 3 if you count the 3DS), so he may as well stay. I think it might be a bit too late for Micaiah to make a comeback. She's in the same boat as Chrom unfortunately.

I don't remember exactly how the things originally went, but Sakurai was searching a character that would fit a "Burly Swordsman" archetype, I'm not complete sure if he wanted him to be necessarily from Fire Emblem, but that definitely helped Ike's chances to be considered (and later used in the game).

Otherwise, I agree with your sentiment... in fact, I believe Ike's election as the Fire Emblem Representative not only hurt the franchise's weapon represenation and gives us an paranoic feel about the FE's future in Smash... It also affect likely this is the reasons of why the game was released in Early-2007 instead of later... and probably is also likely the reason why Ike ending receiving SOME MUCH praise... All of these things damage Micaiah directly and indirectly (character-wise, story-wise and etc-wise)

I think it sounds really cool, though, for Thani, to reflect that it is essentially a magic rapier in-game, would have added a gimmick that the spell launches opponents further the heavier they are, rather than less far.

I'm unsure how would work xD. (But the rapier effect it's already mentioned with the High Shield Damage)

i think we need some kind of fighting game that's dedicated to fire emblem characters

Maybe we'll get it eventually... It would be cool :D

Edited December 26, 2016 by Troykv

[Anacybele]

Sorry, but I don't agree that Micaiah should've been in Smash or should ever be in Smash. Ike was a much better fit for a Tellius rep because he was a lord in both games rather than just one of them and he was probably a little more recognizable at the time due to being in both. He also brought new things to the game like that beefy swordsman archtype you mentioned. Ike may STILL be the only heavyweight swordsman, in fact. Ragnell seems to function more like a club than a sword in the game anyway.

"Confusion" about whether Ike was in RD or not? He did appear in at least one of the game's trailers, you know. This is how I found out about the game too, actually, through an RD trailer featuring Ike and his mercs. Sure, not everyone saw the trailer, but I'm sure some did.

And your argument that his inclusion "damages" Micaiah? lolwut, then we'd have the opposite scenario had she been picked. Ike would be the one to get "damaged" and such. Your point is moot.

With Ike pretty much being a staple now due to having returned in Smash 3DS and Wii U and the size of the FE cast in the game now, Micaiah has no real reason to be in. She would've been rather original, but still. Imo, no FE game or games set in the same continent need more than one rep when we've got so many different lands and casts. This is a reason I don't like Lucina's inclusion when Robin was enough. She was originally going to be a Marth alt until the last minute though, so it's not like she was planned to be a separate addition from the start, so I kind of give Sakurai a pass there.

Edited December 26, 2016 by Anacybele

[Troykv]

Sorry, but I don't agree that Micaiah should've been in Smash or should ever be in Smash. Ike was a much better fit for a Tellius rep because he was a lord in both games rather than just one of them and he was probably a little more recognizable at the time due to being in both. He also brought new things to the game like that beefy swordsman archtype you mentioned. Ike may STILL be the only heavyweight swordsman, in fact. Ragnell seems to function more like a club than a sword in the game anyway.

A Heavy Characters doesn't depend from their weapons, it's about their own constituion and the armor. And a swordman is still a swordman... still hurts the weapon balance.

"Confusion" about whether Ike was in RD or not? He did appear in at least one of the game's trailers, you know. This is how I found out about the game too, actually, through an RD trailer featuring Ike and his mercs. Sure, not everyone saw the trailer, but I'm sure some did.

People would still be confused because he's not in the cover art, someone who knows nothing of FE or RD, will assume Micaiah and Sothe are the main characters, not Ike who appears until the third part and is only mentioned before that, your experience with the trailer is anecdotal and you can't present it as a fact, it is more plausible for people to assume Micaiah is the main character.

And your argument that his inclusion "damages" Micaiah? lolwut, then we'd have the opposite scenario had she been picked. Ike would be the one to get "damaged" and such. Your point is moot.

What? You didn't explain why the point is moot or why you think it doesn't damage Micaiah, you simply flipped both of them without explaining anything.

With Ike pretty much being a staple now due to having returned in Smash 3DS and Wii U and the size of the FE cast in the game now, Micaiah has no real reason to be in. She would've been rather original, but still. Imo, no FE game or games set in the same continent need more than one rep when we've got so many different lands and casts. This is a reason I don't like Lucina's inclusion when Robin was enough. She was originally going to be a Marth alt until the last minute though, so it's not like she was planned to be a separate addition from the start, so I kind of give Sakurai a pass there.

At least you accepted she is original :P

[Ema Skye]

Also would have liked Micaiah over Ike in Brawl. It's too bad FE is literally just sword characters + Robin's six magic attacks.

[Captain Karnage]

I already read it over there, and I'm the same Captin Karnage

I'll look forward to playing as the glass cannon/wet tissue

[Anacybele]

A Heavy Characters doesn't depend from their weapons, it's about their own constituion and the armor. And a swordman is still a swordman... still hurts the weapon balance.

People would still be confused because he's not in the cover art, someone who knows nothing of FE or RD, will assume Micaiah and Sothe are the main characters, not Ike who appears until the third part and is only mentioned before that, your experience with the trailer is anecdotal and you can't present it as a fact, it is more plausible for people to assume Micaiah is the main character.

What? You didn't explain why the point is moot or why you think it doesn't damage Micaiah, you simply flipped both of them without explaining anything.

At least you accepted she is original :P

Sorry, but I'm having trouble understanding some of your English. No, honestly, I am. But from what I can gather, you didn't understand why I said your point about "damaging" Micaiah was moot, even though I JUST explained why it's moot. Because no matter which of the two was picked, one would be "damaged" according to your logic.

And are you saying that I said a character's weapon doesn't determine their weight? Because I never said this. Ike's weight determines his weight, not his weapon. And just because he has a sword doesn't mean he isn't different in other ways. I will agree that I'd like more weapons in the game, specifically a lance for a change (a reason I'd prefer Ephraim over anybody right now), but it doesn't mean that all the sword characters we have are boring. In fact, I feel Roy had no business returning because he's just another swordsman.

Oh, and by the way, I believe IS themselves suggested Ike to Sakurai. So it sounds like neither side here wanted Micaiah.

Edited December 26, 2016 by Anacybele

[Augestein]

Sorry, but I don't agree that Micaiah should've been in Smash or should ever be in Smash. Ike was a much better fit for a Tellius rep because he was a lord in both games rather than just one of them and he was probably a little more recognizable at the time due to being in both. He also brought new things to the game like that beefy swordsman archtype you mentioned. Ike may STILL be the only heavyweight swordsman, in fact. Ragnell seems to function more like a club than a sword in the game anyway.

The thing is, even if Ike is a lord in both games, RD was only on the Wii, and Micaiah is supposed to be an equal rep. Ike being included is the reason that people made fun of Fire Emblem for only having "swordsman with blue hair." Seriously, I can think of several people that I knew that knew nothing about Fire Emblem and thought it seemed stupid because of this. As for a burly swordsmen? You know who it should have been? Ganondorf. He should not have been rocking the "Captain Falcon" inspired moveset after Melee. That was also a mistake from Melee to Brawl. The weapon functioning like a club is just because swords of that size do function more like a big club than a sword at that point.

"Confusion" about whether Ike was in RD or not? He did appear in at least one of the game's trailers, you know. This is how I found out about the game too, actually, through an RD trailer featuring Ike and his mercs. Sure, not everyone saw the trailer, but I'm sure some did.

If you don't know about Fire Emblem at all, don't research it, there's no way to know anything about that. I wasn't as big in Fire Emblem back in the day, but the only reason I knew who Ike was is because I had been given PoR as a gift for Christmas. Considering how PoR sold, it's not unreasonable to believe that people wouldn't know. It's literally where the "Are Marth and Roy in this game?" Meme came from, because so many people literally didn't know where the characters came from, and Roy was a freaking advertisement for a game.

And your argument that his inclusion "damages" Micaiah? lolwut, then we'd have the opposite scenario had she been picked. Ike would be the one to get "damaged" and such. Your point is moot.

Agreed. The difference here though is that at least with Micaiah, we would have a swordsman, a caster, and a magical hybrid swordsman for our main trio instead of. Swordsman, swordsman, swordsman. Even Ike falling into the "burly swordsman" archetype doesn't work too well because Ike has gotten faster since we've started and Marth has only gotten slower.

With Ike pretty much being a staple now due to having returned in Smash 3DS and Wii U and the size of the FE cast in the game now, Micaiah has no real reason to be in. She would've been rather original, but still. Imo, no FE game or games set in the same continent need more than one rep when we've got so many different lands and casts. This is a reason I don't like Lucina's inclusion when Robin was enough. She was originally going to be a Marth alt until the last minute though, so it's not like she was planned to be a separate addition from the start, so I kind of give Sakurai a pass there.

Yes, that's why I said it's too late now. We need another magical character first. As it stands, I absolutely do not want any Fire Emblem characters in, as the team definitely failed on that aspect. Lucina should have never been a regular character. Ever. She should have been a Marth alt and left at that. I don't give him a pass at all for that nonsense. It was a waste of dev time. Especially infuriating when you consider that they made stupid excuses for no Chrom, and then put Lucina in as a character? All it did was irritate Chrom fans and irritate "non-Fire Emblem fans" and contributed more towards the: "there are too many Fire Emblem reps." That was a bad choice all around.

[Clarinets]

The moveset seems interesting. I've wanted Micaiah in Smash for a while but with Robin's moveset also being based around magic I doubt it'll happen unfortunately.

[Anacybele]

The thing is, even if Ike is a lord in both games, RD was only on the Wii, and Micaiah is supposed to be an equal rep. Ike being included is the reason that people made fun of Fire Emblem for only having "swordsman with blue hair." Seriously, I can think of several people that I knew that knew nothing about Fire Emblem and thought it seemed stupid because of this. As for a burly swordsmen? You know who it should have been? Ganondorf. He should not have been rocking the "Captain Falcon" inspired moveset after Melee. That was also a mistake from Melee to Brawl. The weapon functioning like a club is just because swords of that size do function more like a big club than a sword at that point.

Saying FE is stupid because of blue-haired sword-wielders is stupid and ignorant and not a good argument here. Why not make fun of Mario because it's always about plumbers eating mushrooms and beating up a big turtle? Why not make fun of Zelda because it's always about a Peter Pan knock-off who can carry a fuckton of shit? (I don't actually think Link is a Peter Pan knock-off, btw, I'm just using this statement as an example) People who do this are just ignorant and stupid and you can't blame developers for this. If THESE fans actually did a bit of research, they'd know there are plenty of lords that don't have blue hair. Alm, Celica, Leif, Eliwood, Roy, Lyn, Micaiah, Ephraim (I still consider his hair color to be a bit closer to green than blue), and now Corrin. Some people might count Robin too.

Ganondorf has almost never been a swordsman, dude. He only had a sword in TP, that was it. Otherwise, he only used a trident or pure magic. I think he should've used one of those instead of being a Captain Falcon clone.

If you don't know about Fire Emblem at all, don't research it, there's no way to know anything about that. I wasn't as big in Fire Emblem back in the day, but the only reason I knew who Ike was is because I had been given PoR as a gift for Christmas. Considering how PoR sold, it's not unreasonable to believe that people wouldn't know. It's literally where the "Are Marth and Roy in this game?" Meme came from, because so many people literally didn't know where the characters came from, and Roy was a freaking advertisement for a game.

As I implied above, if you don't do research, that's your own fault. You can't blame the devs for someone else's decision. It's fine if at first you think "is this series just about blue-haired swordsmen?" but if you decide not to find out if that's actually true and just keep going on and assuming that with no proof to back it up, that's ignorant.

Edited December 26, 2016 by Anacybele

[Augestein]

Saying FE is stupid because of blue-haired sword-wielders is stupid and ignorant and not a good argument here. Why not make fun of Mario because it's always about plumbers eating mushrooms and beating up a big turtle? Why not make fun of Zelda because it's always about a Peter Pan knock-off who can carry a fuckton of shit? (I don't actually think Link is a Peter Pan knock-off, btw, I'm just using this statement as an example) People who do this are just ignorant and stupid and you can't blame developers for this. If THESE fans actually did a bit of research, they'd know there are plenty of lords that don't have blue hair. Alm, Celica, Leif, Eliwood, Roy, Lyn, Micaiah, Ephraim (I still consider his hair color to be a bit closer to green than blue), and now Corrin. Some people might count Robin too.

Doesn't matter if it's ignorant or not. That's what people see. Why would someone do research on a franchise that they have no interest in, and the advertisements put in are no good? It'd be like someone showing you the worst style of clothing that a clothing line had to offer and then expecting you to research the better stuff. That makes absolutely no sense. Example, let's say you wanted me to hire you as an artist, you wouldn't show me your questionable artwork, you'd show me your best stuff. I have no reason to search every dark hole for what you have for stuff unless you do something to initial perk my curiosity.

Ganondorf has almost never been a swordsman, dude. He only had a sword in TP, that was it. Otherwise, he only used a trident or pure magic. I think he should've used one of those instead of being a Captain Falcon clone.

But you forget that TP was the most relevant LoZ at the time. He also had one in Wind Waker as well (two technically). As well as OoT. The characters had even been updated to look more like their TP counterparts. And it wouldn't have been an entirely bad idea to have the Zelda reps be from different continuities of the Zelda timeline. And more specifically, Ganon has always had a Trident, not Ganondorf. But I'm of the opinion that Ganon and Ganondorf should both be characters from LoZ. But yes, I do agree that he should definitely not have been a C.Falcon clone. That was just... Dumb.

As I implied above, if you don't do research, that's your own fault. You can't blame the devs for someone else's decision. It's fine if at first you think "is this series just about blue-haired swordsmen?" but if you decide not to find out if that's actually true and just keep going on and assuming that with no proof to back it up, that's ignorant.

No. It really isn't. Do you go out of your way to look up stuff that doesn't look interesting? Think about it, Smash is supposed to be a representation of the all-stars from Nintendo's franchises, if the devs themselves are saying "these are the most popular/interesting characters from the series," what does that mean to you? Seeing 2 guys with blue hair, 1 girl with blue hair that has the same moveset as one of the guys with blue hair, all of them have swords, and then another guy that has a sword that can apparently be female as well (probably the most interesting aspect of the Fire Emblem characters). That's no good. DLC only makes it worse on the account that you see Roy and he's another swordsman. At least he has red hair, but it's really not making Fire Emblem look good. Is that really the best to represent the series? Swordsmen? I'd have no interest in it either if I wasn't acquainted with the series since FE4.

[Sweet_Basil]

Back in the day Ike's addition to smash didn't seem like a mediocre choice to me. Roy was dropped and Ike's addition paralleled Marth's fast and nimble style. However one game later we have not one but two newcomers, and one as another Marth clone. Then a few months after Roy returns, which makes Ike's addition to Brawl seem entirely pointless in my opinion, and lastly we get the hotly debated Corrin. What do they all have in common? Swords. It's been three games and 6 characters and they have yet to move on from Swords. The roster is so big and yet so stale that it doesn't even scratch the surface of Fire Emblem's potential. So yes I think Micaiah would have definitely been a better choice than Ike.

Edited December 26, 2016 by Sweet_Basil

[Comet]

i think dragons are cool, so corrin is cool. roy is also 150% cooler than ike in this regard.

[Anacybele]

Back in the day Ike's addition to smash didn't seem like a mediocre choice to me. Roy was dropped and Ike's addition paralleled Marth's fast and nimble style. However one game later we have not one but two newcomers, and one as another Marth clone. Then a few months after Roy returns, which makes Ike's addition to Brawl seem entirely pointless in my opinion, and lastly we get the hotly debated Corrin. What do they all have in common? Swords. It's been three games and 6 characters and they have yet to move on from Swords. The roster is so big and yet so stale that it doesn't even scratch the surface of Fire Emblem's potential. So yes I think Micaiah would have definitely been a better choice than Ike.

This makes no sense either. Ike is a bad choice now simply because you think characters that came AFTER him are better now? You act like Sakurai should've foreseen that characters after Ike might've been more interesting and that's obviously impossible. Like you said, at the time, Ike seemed like and was the better choice. I personally still think he is the better choice. And if anyone's addition was pointless, it was Roy's return because like you said, too many swords. Ike was there and Roy was gone. Why bring the latter back?

Also, Ike is much more different from Marth than Roy was.

Edited December 26, 2016 by Anacybele

[Comet]

in smash 4 roy is about as different from marth as ike is. even marth'd and roy's side specials have notable differences (fire and marth gets height from DB1).

[Anacybele]

in smash 4 roy is about as different from marth as ike is. even marth'd and roy's side specials have notable differences (fire and marth gets height from DB1).

No, he's not. Roy's moves are still similar, just with differing stats. He still has a "Dolphin Slash" and "Dancing Blade" they just have fire and stuff added to them. They also share the same FS. Ike actually has entirely different moves aside from Counter and is in a different weight class as well. He's also beefier now and it's just nice to see a beefy swordsman for once instead of a bishy-looking one.

Edited December 26, 2016 by Anacybele

[Augestein]

No, he's not. Roy's moves are still similar, just with differing stats. He still has a "Dolphin Slash" and "Dancing Blade" they just have fire and stuff added to them. They also share the same FS. Ike actually has entirely different moves aside from Counter and is in a different weight class as well. He's also beefier now and it's just nice to see a beefy swordsman for once instead of a bishy-looking one.

Roy's moves have quite a few properties that make them different. For instance, Marth's standard A attack moves you in a slightly different spot from Roy's and attacks twice as opposed to Roy's once. Roy's moves are about as similar to Marth's as Luigi's moves are to Mario at this point. Roy's Dancing Blade doesn't give an extra jump at all. Roy falls much faster than Marth which can setup up vastly different opportunities. Marth's shield breaker has a different range of motion, while Roy's hits above him, can charge until he hurts himself AND doesn't eat through shields nearly as well. There's enough differences between Marth and Roy at this point even if Roy has a "Marth inspired moveset." It's like calling Falco and Fox the same as this point.

I agree that having a beefy swordsman is kinda nice, but I'd still rather have another caster over that. Like I said, we only really have 1. Ness and Lucas don't even count because that's psi power, which isn't quite the same as magic. For instance, I would have loved if we had Marth, Micaiah, Chrom . Not only is Chrom beefier like Ike, but he also would have had some crazy moveset potential that was just largely ignored-- Chrom is the only lord in the series that has access to all weapon types. At least giving him a moveset with all of that stuff wouldn't have been far-fetched, been able to show off "reclassing" a mechanic that's been introduced in Shadow Dragon and has become a mainstay in the series since. I'm not saying Ike is a mistake because I hate him or anything, I'm saying Ike was a mistake in terms of balancing sane representation for the series -- IE, staying within the main characters of the franchise that are at least relevant at the time, while simultaneously allowing a broader scope of variety of characters and movesets.

It's some of the reason that people pushed for Krystal so hard in Brawl. That was her time to actually been in when she was kinda relevant and could have used that weird staff. Now? With 2 games being released and she's not present in them, dwindling relevance to the series as well as popularity, it's kinda too late to bring her into the fray. The same happens for Micaiah, and the same would have happened to Ike in the hypothetical situation where Micaiah was chosen over him. The difference? Is that it seems like far more of a blow to lose Micaiah than Ike in this case. Considering Fire Emblem's general trend, we're more likely to have another swordsman lead than we are another caster.

[Anacybele]

Roy's moves have quite a few properties that make them different. For instance, Marth's standard A attack moves you in a slightly different spot from Roy's and attacks twice as opposed to Roy's once. Roy's moves are about as similar to Marth's as Luigi's moves are to Mario at this point. Roy's Dancing Blade doesn't give an extra jump at all. Roy falls much faster than Marth which can setup up vastly different opportunities. Marth's shield breaker has a different range of motion, while Roy's hits above him, can charge until he hurts himself AND doesn't eat through shields nearly as well. There's enough differences between Marth and Roy at this point even if Roy has a "Marth inspired moveset." It's like calling Falco and Fox the same as this point.

I agree that having a beefy swordsman is kinda nice, but I'd still rather have another caster over that. Like I said, we only really have 1. Ness and Lucas don't even count because that's psi power, which isn't quite the same as magic. For instance, I would have loved if we had Marth, Micaiah, Chrom . Not only is Chrom beefier like Ike, but he also would have had some crazy moveset potential that was just largely ignored-- Chrom is the only lord in the series that has access to all weapon types. At least giving him a moveset with all of that stuff wouldn't have been far-fetched, been able to show off "reclassing" a mechanic that's been introduced in Shadow Dragon and has become a mainstay in the series since. I'm not saying Ike is a mistake because I hate him or anything, I'm saying Ike was a mistake in terms of balancing sane representation for the series -- IE, staying within the main characters of the franchise that are at least relevant at the time, while simultaneously allowing a broader scope of variety of characters and movesets.

That is what I was saying. Roy has the same moves, but with different properties. Ike has entirely DIFFERENT moves, not the same moves with different properties (except for Counter like I said). Ike is still more original, no matter what you do with Roy as he is. And regardless, if you say Ike is a bad choice at this point simply because he's another sword wielder, the same logic applies to bringing Roy back. I'm not understanding why you people are giving Roy a pass here, but not Ike when this logic can apply to BOTH. I never said Roy and Marth were the same either, just similar.

And exactly, we already had a pure magic-user in Zelda. We had zero beefy swordsmen. This is why it was nice to see Ike changed to his RD design, so we had a more manly and muscular sword dude. Chrom is not as beefy or manly as Ike. He's manlier than most lords, but not Ike or Hector level manly, imo. He also didn't exist yet. And Marth, Ike, and Ephraim would've been the best FE trio, imo. Bishy sword guy who started it all, manly beefy swordsman and the other lord that had two or more games, and a lance wielder which we STILL have yet to see. I also would've liked Ike to have Urvan incorporated into his moveset since we also have yet to see an axe.

I still do not agree and will never agree that Ike was a mistake choice in any way. I think Lucina and Roy were the mistakes.

Edited December 27, 2016 by Anacybele

[solrocknroll]

Ike is an awful, inconsistent character with a bland design and boring gameplay. And that's in Radiant Dawn alone. Bulked Ike soloing the game is lazy and irritating. Ike's in the running for my least favorite Lord in the series, alongside Hector and Lyn.

I've always preferred Micaiah in pretty much every aspect, and she'd be pretty unique. Roy, Lucina, Robin, and Corrin are fine to me though. I'd be okay if Lucina was dropped, but I wouldn't be happy or anything.

Ike was a mistake, and it let to the mess that was Awakening's Ike pandering as well. Too late for Micaiah now, but she would have been cool.

edit: does it even matter if we get the full weapon triangle or whatever. Bandana Dee and some random axe user from another Nintendo game would be good enough. The sword user argument is quite nebulous, especially since there are already a lot of swordfighters in the game anyway. It would be nice to see more weapon diversity from the series, but having weapons just to have them (Ephraim, Hector, etc) would be worse than adding fitting characters from other series like Kirby. Bandana Dee has a plenty fine lance, though I can't think of any major Axe characters. Of course, King Dedede's mallet is close enough.

Edited December 27, 2016 by Freyjadour

[Augestein]

That is what I was saying. Roy has the same moves, but with different properties. Ike has entirely DIFFERENT moves, not the same moves with different properties (except for Counter like I said). Ike is still more original, no matter what you do with Roy as he is. And regardless, if you say Ike is a bad choice at this point simply because he's another sword wielder, the same logic applies to bringing Roy back. I'm not understanding why you people are giving Roy a pass here, but not Ike when this logic can apply to BOTH. I never said Roy and Marth were the same either, just similar.

And exactly, we already had a pure magic-user in Zelda. We had zero beefy swordsmen. This is why it was nice to see Ike changed to his RD design, so we had a more manly and muscular sword dude. Chrom is not as beefy or manly as Ike. He's manlier than most lords, but not Ike or Hector level manly, imo. He also didn't exist yet. And Marth, Ike, and Ephraim would've been the best FE trio, imo. Bishy sword guy who started it all, manly beefy swordsman and the other lord that had two or more games, and a lance wielder which we STILL have yet to see. I also would've liked Ike to have Urvan incorporated into his moveset since we also have yet to see an axe.

I still do not agree and will never agree that Ike was a mistake choice in any way. I think Lucina and Roy were the mistakes.

But they aren't all the same. They actually have completely different hitboxes as well as animations. No joke. Dancing Blade is about the only one that's honestly the same at this point. Ike is more original, yes, but it's still bad. I already said Roy was bad. No one gave Roy a free pass. Heck, I couldn't have made it more obvious with this:

Roy I was fine with being cut.

And I even explicitly explained that Ike being cut at this point would be bad.

And exactly, we already had a pure magic-user in Zelda. We had zero beefy swordsmen. This is why it was nice to see Ike changed to his RD design, so we had a more manly and muscular sword dude. Chrom is not as beefy or manly as Ike. He's manlier than most lords, but not Ike or Hector level manly, imo. He also didn't exist yet. And Marth, Ike, and Ephraim would've been the best FE trio, imo. Bishy sword guy who started it all, manly beefy swordsman and the other lord that had two or more games, and a lance wielder which we STILL have yet to see. I also would've liked Ike to have Urvan incorporated into his moveset since we also have yet to see an axe.

And yet, Micaiah would have been 1 of 2 casters in a 30+ roster. Meanwhile, Ike would have been 4. Marth, Ike, Link, Tink. Chrom most certainly did exist for Smash 4. We're talking about Brawl for Micaiah and someone else for Smash 4. That one should have been Micaiah. IE, Brawl -> Micaiah, Smash 4 -> Chrom. I can guarantee we'd have had less complaints about that than what we have now. I agree that Urvan should have been used for Ike, but they just... Didn't. So as it stands, he's a sword user.

edit: does it even matter if we get the full weapon triangle or whatever. Bandana Dee and some random axe user from another Nintendo game would be good enough. The sword user argument is quite nebulous, especially since there are already a lot of swordfighters in the game anyway. It would be nice to see more weapon diversity from the series, but having weapons just to have them (Ephraim, Hector, etc) would be worse than adding fitting characters from other series like Kirby. Bandana Dee has a plenty fine lance, though I can't think of any major Axe characters. Of course, King Dedede's mallet is close enough.

Kinda yeah. I mean, if we're going to get more Fire Emblem characters, I'd rather them... You know, do more things that can actually be done from the series rather than the same thing. Picture this, let's say we get Mario characters, and all they do is jump and shoot fireballs? How disappointing would that be when there's a ton of moves to be had? Bandana Dee would be a fine addition to the series, and that's primarily because it's base moveset isn't based off of a limited set of skills. What's wrong with the FE characters is that we are missing out on things that could be interesting. Characters that transform with stones to fight as an animal -- as we only have a couple of quadrupeds for fighters despite being able to have more, an archer moveset (which could be pretty cool if done right), axes, people that could fight on a mount (seriously? What hasn't this been done?). There are a lot of ideas that Fire Emblem could have but they just dwindle them down to... Sword fighters. It's disappointing if you're a FE fan, it's disheartening about the franchise if you're not.

I still do not agree and will never agree that Ike was a mistake choice in any way. I think Lucina and Roy were the mistakes.

And I don't think most people would argue that either. Lucina is a huge mistake, and Roy wouldn't have been nearly as bad of a mistake if he weren't DLC.

[Radiant head]

in smash 4 roy is about as different from marth as ike is. even marth'd and roy's side specials have notable differences (fire and marth gets height from DB1).

roy is more unique now than before, but he's still probably much closer to marth than ike is.

though it's worth pointing out that ike in brawl is very much based on path of radiance, so i'm guessing micaiah and anything from radiant dawn wasn't even on the radar until smash 4.

Edited December 27, 2016 by Radiant head