How would you have handled Corrin's family?

[BlueBloodEmblazer]

During my first play of Birthright I thought Corrin would discard the dragonstone and go crazy when Xander killed Elise. I was disappointed to see nobody being surprised about the dragon though. Maybe Corrin being a dragon could be related to Yato giving him the power, instead of him just being born with it.

[saisymbolic]

Honestly, I'd axe off Hinoka and Camilla, merging some of their traits into the remaining siblings.

Takumi would be older than Corrin. By how much would be irrelevant, only that he would be older. Mikoto would be Corrin and Sakura's mother, while Ryoma and Takumi's mother would still be Ikona, making them half-siblings for some potential sibling tension/support conversation/world building topics. If that doesn't work well, just make them all Mikoto's children and call it a day.

Azura's parentage would be irrelevant, to be honest. Her dad can be either Garon or some randy.

The Nohr siblings still work in the same manner. Xander being the oldest with the clearest memories of human!Garon; Leo would have the vague memories of human!Garon; and Elise would have no recollection of human!Garon. Of course, this is under the assumption that slime!Garon would exist. He doesn't in my head!canon, but you know . . .

[NekoKnight]

I'm going to agree with others and say that:

-There should be fewer siblings total. Merge Leo into Camilla and Hinoka into Ryoma.

-Valla and all associated elements should be cut.

-Azura is a Garon's daughter and Kamui is Sumeragi's son/daughter.

-Kamui's dragon form is from recessive genes and not super special exotic parentage.

So here's where things get interesting. MOST sibling marriages should be unavailable but there are two exceptions: Leo and Camilla. Why those two, you may wonder? What I'm imagining is that Kamui (depending on their respective gender) is married off to one of the two siblings to form an alliance with the losing country. Kamui is a Hoshidan prince(ss) and Leo and Camilla (who both survive, even in Birthright) are Nohrian royalty. Regardless of how they may feel personally, they have an obligation to marry to support political alliances. There is no reason for Kamui to marry any of the Hoshidans however. Sorry for ruining the symmetry but story trumps pandering (in my ideal world).

EDIT: I guess you could S-supprt Azura too, or write her out entirely. I don't really care, especially since Valla is gone.

Edited December 28, 2016 by NekoKnight

[Avarice Shadow]

I like what people are saying about cutting off Corrin's relation to Valla because there's way too much going on with the ties Corrin has to his two families already IMO.

I would have Corrin actually be related to the Hoshidan siblings(I thought that was the whole theme for when they advertised Birthright). Azura would be related to the Nohrian siblings.

Not sure how I would handle the third path though... Maybe put a bigger spotlight on the Rainbow Sage? His role of creating the Yato? And the war that was waged by the dragons. Then have the Rainbow Sage tell Corrin about Anankos returning which then prompts Corrin to try to get everyone working together?

Edited December 28, 2016 by Avarice_Shadow

[Thunderstar]

Firstly I would remove Valla and Anankos.

Arete and Mikoto aren't related and they are respectively a Nohr and a Hoshidan Noble no pun intended!

Corrin is Sumeragi's child and Hoshidan. Azura is Garon's daughter and is Nohrian.

Mikoto is Corrin and the youngest siblings' mother.

I would remove one or two siblings in each side or merge them since some of them are barely developed. Or they could still exist but they aren't royals just some nobles or generals. If we can find a way to make them all revelant, we can keep 4 siblings at each side but it will be hard.

Every one has a legendary weapon even Azura.

Lilith is not related to Corrin and is this game's Tiki, Fae and Myrrh and has a similar role. Once you feed her enough, she regains her powers and is playable.

Sometimes it's possible for a royal family member to transform into a dragon because they are the First Dragons' descendants but it doesn't happen to all the royal family members. It's why Corrin is the only one who can transform. Garon can transform as well for this reason.

No third route or it would be about an alliance between Corrin, Azura and the neutral counties like eggclipse said or something.

Arete, Ikona and Katerina are still alive. Mikoto still dies but would be more developed.

Arete is Garon's current wife and is still only Azura's mother. The other sibling/s' mom (depending on how many siblings there are) is still a concubine. Arete is the one who manipulates Garon.

She wants the throne all for herself and for her daughter. She plans to overthrow him with the help of corrupt Nohrian nobles. Garon wants to invade Hoshido for its ressources.

Ikona is Sumeragi's ex-wife and Corrin's older sibling/s' mother (depending on how many siblings there as well).

She is still pissed that Sumeragi decided to marry and get one/other child/children with someone else especially that one of them (Corrin) got dragon blood instead of her own child/children.

Since Ryoma wants to be crowned King after the war, Ikona is temporary the Queen. She represents the "darker" side of Hoshido and doesn't hesitate to do terrible things to Nohrians and other non-Hoshidan people for the good of her country with the help of corrupt Hoshidan nobles.
She thinks Corrin is a threat to the Hoshidan throne and Ryoma.

Both Arete and Ikona are interested in the First Dragons and tried to find a way to get more powers from them for their interests.
Maybe make Iago and Yukimura their respective retainer as well.

Katerina is Garon's ex-wife and is still only Xander's mother. She thinks Garon is doing the worst for Nohr and wants Xander to be on the throne now so she starts a rebellion with some nobles, Xander, Corrin, Azura and the other child/children's help.

She obviously doesn't like Xander's other siblings at the start but she would start to like them later on. She represents the "light" side of Nohr.

[Damosel]

Kamui as Sumeragi's kid and Aqua as Garon's I vastly prefer (ditto to no S-ranking any siblings). I'd get rid of all the extra Touma|Valla elements (including Kamui's transforming) as a Nohr vs Hoshido conflict has more than enough potential for a decent plot/game.

As for everyone speculating on Kamui's age in relation to when they arrived in Hoshido...

I have some screenshots from both Hidden Truths and Revelation which gives some context of Kamui being a baby when Mikoto fled Touma. Personally, I don't think Sumeragi waited until Ikona was dead to hook up with Mikoto- because Sakura's Japanese support with Kamui establishes her as a newborn when the Chevalier incident goes down. I don't really think one year would be enough for Ryouma, Hinoka, and Takumi to get attached to Kamui, so it's likely Mikoto horned in while Ikona was still kicking.

So I think Mikoto showed up with a baby, which Sumeragi claimed as his own (despite knowing that wasn't the case) and Kamui grew up in Hoshido for a number of years. There's also this bizarre sequence where Ryouma talks about being jealous for Kamui's leadership skills when they were kids, makes one wonder just how old Kamui was when kidnapped.

Edited December 28, 2016 by Damosel

[Nanima]

I don't think changing the Nohrian siblings' parentage is actually the right approach. The backstory of the concubine war is demonstrated to have had a deep effect on their personalities and dynamics. Changing that would mean a lot of changes to their personalities, and while I know many of you aren't ecstatic on them in the first place (I'll even grant you Camilla being badly utilized and presented, and Xander having some problems) I don't think it's their backstory that is the issue here. Azura could have been easily the daughter of Garon and Arete, with Arete being the former queen-regnant of Valla.

Concerning Corrin, I do agree that they should have been blood siblings with the Hoshidans, at least partially. Mikoto could have been a descendant of Anankos and a human (as would be Arete, but they come from entirely different branches). In this canon, the dragon blood would have faded over the passing generations, with very few descendants still having the ability to transform. It's like a recessive gene, in that Mikoto carried it, but it didn't express itself in her (and in neither Takumi or Sakura). Even with Sumeragi's diluted dragon blood in the mix it was a very small chance at this point, which is why no one heard of it in recent memory. (there is probably some biologist cringing over this)

I don't really think one year would be enough for Ryouma, Hinoka, and Takumi to get attached to Kamui, so it's likely Mikoto horned in while Ikona was still kicking.

The Drama CDs establish that Takumi has no memories of Corrin from his childhood, so it's unlikely he was any older than 3 when they were kidnapped. I personally put Mikoto as Sumeragi's second wife as well, with Corrin being 4 when they were kidnapped, while Takumi was 2 and Sakura was a newborn.

Edited December 28, 2016 by Nanima²

[Thane]

I don't think changing the Nohrian siblings' parentage is actually the right approach. The backstory of the concubine war is demonstrated to have had a deep effect on their personalities and dynamics. Changing that would mean a lot of changes to their personalities, and while I know many of you aren't ecstatic on them in the first place (I'll even grant you Camilla being badly utilized and presented, and Xander having some problems) I don't think it's their backstory that is the issue here. Azura could have been easily the daughter of Garon and Arete, with Arete being the former queen-regnant of Valla.

I agree, but fixing the Nohrian siblings would to some extent include fixing Garon, as their loyalty to him now comes across as completely unfounded. Even if you bring up every single plausible excuse to why they'd choose to ignore some of their father's faults and decisions, it's almost impossible to root for characters who turn a blind eye to pure evil, or rather help said evil achieve its goals. That, and a lot of those excuses require some mighty mental gymnastics and speculation.

By humanizing Garon - not necessarily making him a good person, just not a puppy-kicker - and actually involving the Nohrian siblings in the plot of Conquest as opposed to keeping them out of the loop and robbing them of any and all possible character development, the conflict could've been a lot more nuanced and the Nohrian siblings would've come across as less, well, a lot of ugly adjectives.

Edited December 28, 2016 by Thane

[Nanima]

I agree, but fixing the Nohrian siblings would to some extent include fixing Garon, as their loyalty to him now comes across as completely unfounded. Even if you bring up every single plausible excuse to why they'd choose to ignore some of their father's faults and decisions, it's almost impossible to root for characters who turn a blind eye to pure evil, or rather help it achieve said evil's goals.

By humanizing Garon - not necessarily making him a good person, just not a puppy-kicker - and actually involving the Nohrian siblings in the plot of Conquest as opposed to keeping them out of the loop and robbing them of any and all possible character development, the conflict could've been a lot more nuanced and the Nohrian siblings would've come across as less, well, a lot of ugly adjectives.

I was referring mostly to the concubine crisis still being intact (i.e. Camilla, Leo and Elise still being children to concubines). Garon should not have been an evil slime charicature, but instead a mostly decent, if mentally weak, man who let the blood and misery around him push him towards immorality and violence. (though still within human reason and no "haha I am so evil")

I don't exactly commend the Nohrsibs for their behaviour, but I think it can be mostly explained by the deeply abusive environment they grew up in (even before Gooron came into the picture, since their moms aren't implied to have been the nicest people either), where the complicated mix of fear and yearning for their father ruled their lifes. The narrative here was "Let's keep quiet or daddy is going to murder us." (Leo and Camilla outright say Garon would kill them for failure let alone outright rebellion). As royalty, they can't exactly 'move out' or 'grow up', cause their dad is also their literal boss and king for life. Running away would also be easier said than done, since, again, dad is the king of Nohr, and Hoshido wouldn't exactly be friendly or open to them.. Then there is also a major difference between "stealthy behind-the-scenes actions that daddy will never know about" and outright confronting the abusive monster that used to be your father. Using the obvious slime monster for that scene at the end of Conquest (which should have happened a lot sooner anyway) was just silly though.

There is much to be said about the nature of abuse when it comes to the Nohrsibs, although I will say that the story didn't execute or present it well. I guess we can all agree that Gooron should not have happened.

[Thane]

I was referring mostly to the concubine crisis still being intact (i.e. Camilla, Leo and Elise still being children to concubines). Garon should not have been an evil slime charicature, but instead a mostly decent, if mentally weak, man who let the blood and misery around him push him towards immorality and violence. (though still within human reason and no "haha I am so evil")

I don't exactly commend the Nohrsibs for their behaviour, but I think it can be mostly explained by the deeply abusive environment they grew up in (even before Gooron came into the picture, since their moms aren't implied to have been the nicest people either), where the complicated mix of fear and yearning for their father ruled their lifes. The narrative here was "Let's keep quiet or daddy is going to murder us." (Leo and Camilla outright say Garon would kill them for failure let alone outright rebellion). As royalty, they can't exactly 'move out' or 'grow up', cause their dad is also their literal boss and king for life. Running away would also be easier said than done, since, again, dad is the king of Nohr, and Hoshido wouldn't exactly be friendly or open to them.. Then there is also a major difference between "stealthy behind-the-scenes actions that daddy will never know about" and outright confronting the abusive monster that used to be your father. Using the obvious slime monster for that scene at the end of Conquest (which should have happened a lot sooner anyway) was just silly though.

There is much to be said about the nature of abuse when it comes to the Nohrsibs, although I will say that the story didn't execute or present it well. I guess we can all agree that Gooron should not have happened.

I understand what you meant, but focusing too much on the past wouldn't have helped the siblings anyway if the present remained the way it is.

The thing is they don't really present their actions as being rooted in abuse; we get a few lines about the so-called Concubine Wars - which is a fan name - in a few supports, and that's about it. In the same way, we don't explore their relationship to Garon nearly enough, and in the main story they're actively being kept from having a real impact on the story because of Azura and Corrin's plan. Had Garon not been a slime and had the Nohrian siblings been allowed to actually develop as characters, maybe we could've delved deeper into their mentality, childhood and what not. However, as it stands now, they willingly invade a nation even though they know it's wrong, and trying to make sense of that by blaming it on them growing up in an abusive atmosphere based solely on a few lines buried in less than a handful of supports even though they don't bring it up in the main story is cutting them too much slack.

I apologize if my argument is difficult to understand, I realize I present it in a very clumsy way. I merely wanted to say that, to fix the Nohrian siblings, one would need to address Garon's character as well, or else their role in the game would remain unchanged anyway.

Edited December 28, 2016 by Thane

[Nanima]

I understand what you meant, but focusing too much on the past wouldn't have helped the siblings anyway if the present remained the way it is.

The thing is they don't really present their actions as being rooted in abuse; we get a few lines about the so-called Concubine Wars - which is a fan name - in a few supports, and that's about it. In the same way, we don't explore their relationship to Garon nearly enough, and in the main story they're actively being kept from having a real impact on the story because of Azura and Corrin's plan. Had Garon not been a slime and had the Nohrian siblings been allowed to actually develop as characters, maybe we could've delved deeper into their mentality, childhood and what not. However, as it stands now, they willingly invade a nation even though they know it's wrong, and trying to make sense of that by blaming it on them growing up in an abusive atmosphere based solely on a few lines buried in less than a handful of supports even though they don't bring it up in the main story is cutting them too much slack.

I apologize if my argument is difficult to understand, I realize I present it in a very clumsy way. I merely wanted to say that, to fix the Nohrian siblings, one would need to address Garon's character as well, or else their role in the game would remain unchanged anyway.

I can understand your argument, and even agree with it to the extent that all this should have been implemented in the actual story. I think what we disagree on is how far the supports should still count towards the characters. Even if they happen outside the story, I think supports should still count as official. Supports were always meant to give depth to the characters and relationships, so i think it is fair to take them into consideration when talking about the characters as a whole.

Do I think Fates did the right thing by placing such hugely important character motivations and background stories into the supports, while focusing on Corrin and Azura's wacky excuse of a plan? Definitely not. But those motivations and backgrounds are still interesting and compelling to me, so I will have to take them as they are.

[Thane]

I can understand your argument, and even agree with it to the extent that all this should have been implemented in the actual story. I think what we disagree on is how far the supports should still count towards the characters. Even if they happen outside the story, I think supports should still count as official. Supports were always meant to give depth to the characters and relationships, so i think it is fair to take them into consideration when talking about the characters as a whole.

Do I think Fates did the right thing by placing such hugely important character motivations and background stories into the supports, while focusing on Corrin and Azura's wacky excuse of a plan? Definitely not. But those motivations and backgrounds are still interesting and compelling to me, so I will have to take them as they are.

Oh, for sure, absolutely, but when a few lines about their past have zero bearing on the plot - or in Xander's case having a completely different personality in the main story than in the supports - I simply feel like the supports don't matter much. They become excuses rather than reasons and motivations when discussing the Nohrian siblings.

I apologize if I sound harsh or just plain grumpy, I definitely see your point, I just can't bring myself to feel the way you do. To me, it's simply too little and of too little relevance.

[twistedxgrace]

Lilith is not related to Corrin and is this game's Tiki, Fae and Myrrh and has a similar role. Once you feed her enough, she regains her powers and is playable.

I would've loved to actually play as Lilith, haha. Perhaps Corrin would not be a dragon, either in this case and just have the Yato?

[BlueBloodEmblazer]

okay what if Garon wasn't evil, but instead depressed. Iago would have total control of everything being someone that Garon trusted. In conquest Garon still dies, but he fights along side you as an ally unit in endgame. And dies at the very end in a happy way. It would be a good ending because he would overcome the depression (thanks to his kids), and then die happy. How would you like a story with that outcome? btw the depression is caused from losing his first wife. Concubines would come into his life and be in the story, but their respective Nohr kid doesn't want anything to do with them.

[DragonFlames]

okay what if Garon wasn't evil, but instead depressed. Iago would have total control of everything being someone that Garon trusted. In conquest Garon still dies, but he fights along side you as an ally unit in endgame. And dies at the very end in a happy way. It would be a good ending because he would overcome the depression (thanks to his kids), and then die happy. How would you like a story with that outcome? btw the depression is caused from losing his first wife. Concubines would come into his life and be in the story, but their respective Nohr kid doesn't want anything to do with them.

Wow, that actually sounds pretty cool! It gives Iago and Garon more character depth, as well as explain Xander's utter stupidity loyalty to his father. Well done, sir! *no patronizing intended*

On topic: I would personally leave things as they are now, as far as the whole sibling relationship ordeal is concerned. My main issues with the siblings are with their characters and how they are portrayed.

Both Ryoma and Xander especially are a bit too willing to resort to violence if things don't go their way. If the writing staff intended to make them seem as anything more than foolish warmongers unfit to rule a kingdom, then they failed spectacularly.

I mean, the so-called 'family love' couldn't have been that great if Ryoma and Xander are that willing and ready to attack Corrin on BR and CQ respectively and on Rev, they aren't even willing to listen to them. The supposedly 'funny' squabble between Ryoma and Xander on CQ Chapter 18 doesn't exactly make cases for them, either. If anything, it makes them seem petty and all the hate between Hoshido and Nohr is reduced to some stupid argument between two bloodbath-loving princes.

Someone in the writing staff had serious sibling issues, I guess. That is NOT how true siblings, especially older siblings, are supposed to act. And ESPECIALLY not if they are heirs to the respective thrones of their respective kingdoms.

Takumi and, to a lesser extent, Leo don't give me much reason to like them, either.

I would severely tone down Takumi's Sasuke-ishness and make his insecurities more subtle and in the process more tragic. As they are now, they are just the whining of an annoying man-child. His supports with his siblings and Corrin should focus on him overcoming them and growing into a decent person, not the false-arrogant asshole that he is for most of them.

Leo is in the same boat as Xander, too quick to use violence as the answer to anything. I mean, yeah, this IS Fire Emblem, basically a fantasy war simulator, but all the other FEs at least had had their characters have some kind of reason why they did what they did other than 'lol, kill stuff'.

Sakura and Elise are fine. I would just change it so that both of them can't marry anyone. They're little girls, for heaven's sake! Medieval times or not, Sanaki didn't get married in Radiant Dawn, either.

Oh, and I'd give both of them more presence in the story. A LOT more presence than they have now, especially in Rev.

Camilla and Hinoka are fine, too. Hinoka needs to be more present in the story, but that's about it.

And then, both families needed a lot more backstory. A lot of the story was just talking about how awesome Xander, Leo, Ryoma, Takumi and Azura are and their backstories were only briefly explained in their supports.

I like the idea of Camilla doting on Corrin because of the desire to make them feel the love she didn't get from her mother because of the concubine crisis.

I like the idea of Elise only pretending to be happy all the time so that everyone around her can be happy.

I like the idea of Leo feeling inferior to Xander and thus studying magic instead (he is basically Takumi done right, in that regard).

I like the idea of the Nohrian family slowly falling apart in Birthright, because of Corrin's disappearance and Garon's slow descent into madness and the war against Hoshido going on.

But all of these needed to be addressed in the main story more. The Nohrian siblings could have been so much better if Xander didn't exist/was written differently and if the others were fleshed out more.

As for Conquest, I would have changed so that Hoshido is the aggressor this time around and they only appear AFTER you rebel against and overthrow Iago, who has since taken the throne from Garon, which would include Mr. BlueBloodEmblazer's idea as well. It would lengthen Conquest by another 13 Chapters or so, but hey, more Chapters means more time for story means more time to develop characters, right?

Corrin and Azura are in the same boat. Both needed so much more backstory! I would have made it so that Corrin found out Anankos is his father and Lillith his biological sister through Odin, Laslow, Selena and the little dragon in question, thus revealing that Azura is his cousin as well. Then I would have made the two unable to marry each other in any route to remove any implications of incest, since some countries/cultures frown upon the notion of cousin marriage. Again, screw medieval times as justification. If we can have homosexuals and transgenders as a-okay in a medieval setting - which it wasn't in medieval Europe (which Conquest is based on, can't say much for Medieval Japan), like it or not - then we can have some modern rules of marriage, too.

And lastly, I would have given Azura a more compelling personality outside of her supports with Kaze, Kaden and Arthur. The Azura we see there should be the Azura we see in the main game.

But this issue is one I have with many characters. In supports they behave quite differently from how they behave(d) in the main game. Examples include Xander, Takumi, Ryoma and Hana.

Edited December 31, 2016 by DragonFlames

[Nanima]

Takumi and, to a lesser extent, Leo don't give me much reason to like them, either.

I would severely tone down Takumi's Sasuke-ishness and make his insecurities more subtle and in the process more tragic. As they are now, they are just the whining of an annoying man-child. His supports with his siblings and Corrin should focus on him overcoming them and growing into a decent person, not the false-arrogant asshole that he is for most of them.

I know this is your personal perception.. but me and a lot of others find Takumi to be a very realistic and relatable depiction of mental illness. It's never openly stated, but it is widely accepted that he suffers from anxiety on top of his low self-esteem. It's not always pretty and can get quite ugly, but he does show kindness on many many occasions, which is most of his supports actually. His issues do not come out of nowhere. His older siblings do in fact seem to have been neglectful (Hinoka being infamous for her fixation on training to save Corrin, Ryouma's two youngest siblings treat him more like a distant authority figure than an older sibling)

Man-child seems quite the misplaced insult when he is like what? 17 or 18? Definitely still a teenager, who is understandably not always "mature".

Most people who have actually looked at his personality and relationships find him a very appealing and refreshinly realistic character.

[Res]

I've never resonated with any fictional character as much as I have with Takumi. I feel that if you have a similar personality to him, there's nothing incongruous about his character. He's actually remarkably consistently written and that extends to all his supports, lines in game and the drama CDs, too. What you might read as 'arrogant asshole' reads as a shield put up to protect/conceal his vulnerabilities, to me.

[Thane]

Most people who have actually looked at his personality and relationships find him a very appealing and refreshinly realistic character.

He's by far one of the best written characters in the game and definitely a contender for one of the best written characters in the series, to my knowledge. The issue, aside from Revelation where everybody aside from Corrin and maybe Azura is relegated to prop status, is his portrayal in Conquest in places. Having to ask for forgivness to the guy he had every right to hate left such a bitter taste in my mouth.

I don't think his actions or words should be excused just because he's got issues though. One of the best parts about Takumi is that he's just a character who's got problems; he never becomes them. Like Res, while I definitely see your point about him being an arrogant asshole to protect himself, I doubt it's only to protect himself - the bloke is a proud, arrogant douche. It's taken to an extreme because of his insecurities, but those traits would've been there regardless of that fact, I'm sure.

[Res]

He's by far one of the best written characters in the game and definitely a contender for one of the best written characters in the series, to my knowledge. The issue, aside from Revelation where everybody aside from Corrin and maybe Azura is relegated to prop status, is his portrayal in Conquest in places. Having to ask for forgivness to the guy he had every right to hate left such a bitter taste in my mouth.

I don't think his actions or words should be excused just because he's got issues though. One of the best parts about Takumi is that he's just a character who's got problems; he never becomes them. Like Res, while I definitely see your point about him being an arrogant asshole to protect himself, I doubt it's only to protect himself - the bloke is a proud, arrogant douche. It's taken to an extreme because of his insecurities, but those traits would've been there regardless of that fact, I'm sure.

Yes; that part was poorly done.

Is he that arrogant? Conquest aside (because his possession is hinted at as early as chapter 10), I don't really see it. Definitely prickly/standoffish, but he's pretty quick (both in Birthright and his supports) to apologize properly once he realizes he's been mistaken or is in the wrong. Someone who's arrogant to me is someone who genuinely believes in their superiority.

[Nanima]

He's by far one of the best written characters in the game and definitely a contender for one of the best written characters in the series, to my knowledge. The issue, aside from Revelation where everybody aside from Corrin and maybe Azura is relegated to prop status, is his portrayal in Conquest in places. Having to ask for forgivness to the guy he had every right to hate left such a bitter taste in my mouth.

I don't think his actions or words should be excused just because he's got issues though. One of the best parts about Takumi is that he's just a character who's got problems; he never becomes them. Like Res, while I definitely see your point about him being an arrogant asshole to protect himself, I doubt it's only to protect himself - the bloke is a proud, arrogant douche. It's taken to an extreme because of his insecurities, but those traits would've been there regardless of that fact, I'm sure.

I never said it should excuse his actions. I never claimed he was an angel. The fact that he lashes out and shows the ugly side of his issues is something I find amazing, considering such characters are usually portrayed as complete saints or woobies that just need a good hug. I did in fact call his behaviour ugly ("It's not always pretty, and can get ugly" maybe phrased to indirectly, I'll give you that.), but I wanted to remind DragonFlames that Takumi does have kindness he displays frequently. I don't think he needed reminding of Takumi's bad actions.

I was also frustrated by the plot forcing him to apologize. That apology might have been somewhat justified in Birthright or Revelations, were Corrin either actually sided with Hoshido or never tried to hurt it, but definitely not in Conquest where every time someone pats Corrin on the back it made me want to hurl.

I suppose you could call it arrogance, in that his world view is somewhat self-centered. In the "That guy looked at me, he must think negatively of me." or "Someone laughed over in that corner, it must be about me." way. The smallest things get viewed as intentional attacks and insults. In his mind, the world is focused on him. That can be called arrogance, yes, but I doubt it's because he thinks he is a great guy. The language he uses when talking about himself betrays that. The way he flusters when praised betrays that. When he does something great, especially if it gets someone's positive attention, he gets a giant confidence boost and becomes all giddy. But that's a drop in the ocean, very superficial. Self-hate and self-importance work hand in hand.

Edited December 31, 2016 by Nanima²

[Thane]

Yes; that part was poorly done.

Is he that arrogant? Conquest aside (because his possession is hinted at as early as chapter 10), I don't really see it. Definitely prickly/standoffish, but he's pretty quick (both in Birthright and his supports) to apologize properly once he realizes he's been mistaken or is in the wrong. Someone who's arrogant to me is someone who genuinely believes in their superiority.

I never said it should excuse his actions. I never claimed he was an angel. The fact that he lashes out and shows the ugly side of his issues is something I find amazing, considering such characters are usually portrayed as complete saints. I did in fact call his behaviour ugly ("It's not always pretty, and can get ugly" maybe phrased to indirectly, I'll give you that.), but I wanted to remind DragonFlames that Takumi does have kindness he displays frequently. I don't think he needed reminding of Takumi's bad actions.

I was also frustrated by the plot forcing him to apologize. That apology might have been somewhat justified in Birthright or Revelations, were Corrin either actually sided with Hoshido or never tried to hurt it, but definitely not in Conquest where every time someone pats Corrin on the back it made me want to hurl.

I suppose you could call it arrogance, in that his world view is somewhat self-centered. In the "That guy looked at me, he must think negatively of me." or "Someone laughed over in that corner, it must be about me." way. The smallest things get viewed as intentional attacks and insults. In his mind, the world is focused on him. That can be called arrogance, yes, but I doubt it's because he thinks he is a great guy. The language he uses when talking about himself betrays that. The way he flusters when praised betrays that. When he does something great, especially if it gets someone's positive attention, he gets a giant confidence boost and becomes all giddy. But that's a drop in the ocean, very superficial. Self-hate and self-importance work hand in hand.

You'll have to forgive me for being unclear, I didn't mean to insinuate that you didn't think Takumi shouldn't be excused, I was speaking in general. I've seen a few people saying he should be understood, and while it's important to know where he's coming from, I disagree that he should be immune to criticism just like any other person, like in the prologue where he treats Azura really unfairly. Sorry about the confusion.

Yupp, that's pretty much my reaction as well. At first I thought that scene was just there to mirror Birthright, which it most likely was, but it doesn't really work when Corrin really doesn't deserve the pep talk.

Oh sure, I agree with you both, but the traits are there. He boasts in battle, albeit like most characters, is very proud of his homeland and he's the sibling most prone to throwing his title around, among other things. One could argue it's to give himself a sense of importance, but I personally never got that impression. I'm not saying the guy doesn't have issues, I'm just saying he's still a proud hothead who'd definitely take some time getting used to. I guess I don't want Takumi to be reduced to only his insecurities.

...Huh, it's funny, we're talking about the one character who doesn't really need any changes, barring a few scenes or dialogue choices here and there.

[Nanima]

You'll have to forgive me for being unclear, I didn't mean to insinuate that you didn't think Takumi shouldn't be excused, I was speaking in general. I've seen a few people saying he should be understood, and while it's important to know where he's coming from, I disagree that he should be immune to criticism just like any other person, like in the prologue where he treats Azura really unfairly. Sorry about the confusion.

Yupp, that's pretty much my reaction as well. At first I thought that scene was just there to mirror Birthright, which it most likely was, but it doesn't really work when Corrin really doesn't deserve the pep talk.

Oh sure, I agree with you both, but the traits are there. He boasts in battle, albeit like most characters, is very proud of his homeland and he's the sibling most prone to throwing his title around, among other things. One could argue it's to give himself a sense of importance, but I personally never got that impression. I'm not saying the guy doesn't have issues, I'm just saying he's still a proud hothead who'd definitely take some time getting used to. I guess I don't want Takumi to be reduced to only his insecurities.

...Huh, it's funny, we're talking about the one character who doesn't really need any changes, barring a few scenes or dialogue choices here and there.

First, it's okay I also jumped to conclusions a little fast here.

1)Yeah the Azura thing is definitly one where he shows his worst sides. It's the one thing I can't really make sense of with him. He claims to hate and distrust her because she is from Nohr, but he was literally raised with her from childhood. Even if she was a recluse, it seems silly to keep being hostile to someone who has been part of the family for years and hasn't shown or done anything in all that time, even for him. I guess you could put it down as outbursts he aims at her because of her closeness with Corrin, but the problem is that we were never shown their 'normal' behaviour. After the decision it's either still outright hate (CQ) or an inexplicable 180 (BR... do they even interact in Revelations?) to friendly siblings. I know Azura claims in Conquest that Takumi was often nice to her before all this, but we never saw any of that. Show, don't tell please. I certainly don't buy the "I really always loved you" bullshit their S-support tries to feed us.

I guess that would be one thing to change.. a more clear depiction of their dynamic. But that goes for a lot of Azura's relationships..

2) I understand the feeling, and I have certainly seen people who only view Takumi as his issues. The thing is, they are a crucial part of his character, and do have influence on many of his actions. Takumi without his issues would be a very different character. But not entirely of course. Just because something has influence on your behaviour, doesn't mean it can be used to define you entirely. Takumi has plenty of things going for him: His hobbies, his strategic mind, his kindness to Sakura and his retainers (helping Oboro set up her shop had nothing to do with his own problems). Then there are bad sides, like his spoiled attitude (He complains how he shouldn't need to do "manual labor" in his and Mozu's support as well as random MyCastle duties) and the cat-fights he has with Leon before they actually get to know each other in Revelations, as well as a general childishness and the hot-headedness you described.

His issues are part of him and you cannot judge his behaviour without at least considering them, but they are also not all he is.

I hope that made sense, I am having some trouble articulating my feelings on that issue.

[Res]

I do believe that it stems from giving himself a sense of importance, but in every other respect I agree with you.

I definitely don't think or expect that everyone should understand Takumi, but I will definitely challenge DragonFlames' assertion that his supports portray a different character from the rest of the story (again, unless you're talking Conquest) or that Leo is a 'better done' Takumi (they share some similarities, but are different for good reasons).

...Huh, it's funny, we're talking about the one character who doesn't really need any changes, barring a few scenes or dialogue choices here and there.

Yes!

Nanima - you explained yourself well! I especially agree with you both with regards to Takumi's treatment of Azura early on in the game.

[Thane]

1)Yeah the Azura thing is definitly one where he shows his worst sides. It's the one thing I can't really make sense of with him. He claims to hate and distrust her because she is from Nohr, but he was literally raised with her from childhood. Even if she was a recluse, it seems silly to keep being hostile to someone who has been part of the family for years and hasn't shown or done anything in all that time, even for him. I guess you could put it down as outbursts he aims at her because of her closeness with Corrin, but the problem is that we were never shown their 'normal' behaviour. After the decision it's either still outright hate (CQ) or an inexplicable 180 (BR... do they even interact in Revelations?) to friendly siblings. I know Azura claims in Conquest that Takumi was often nice to her before all this, but we never saw any of that. Show, don't tell please. I certainly don't buy the "I really always loved you" bullshit their S-support tries to feed us.

I guess that would be one thing to change.. a more clear depiction of their dynamic. But that goes for a lot of Azura's relationships..

I feel like the writers needed to cement what kind of character Takumi was early on, and the quickest way of doing that was to throw his and Azura's relationship under the bus.

Of course, it seems as if Azura's relationships are deliberately not shown in order to make her appear more mysterious, which really doesn't work out in the long run. Then again, this is a common problem throughout the entire main story; there needed to be more non-exposition dialogue between all the siblings in general.

Oh, and for the most part, I think it's safe to toss S-supports out the window, as so many of them are simply cheap excuses to get people to have kids, a result of a flawed support system.

2) I understand the feeling, and I have certainly seen people who only view Takumi as his issues. The thing is, they are a crucial part of his character, and do have influence on many of his actions. Takumi without his issues would be a very different character. But not entirely of course. Just because something has influence on your behaviour, doesn't mean it can be used to define you entirely. Takumi has plenty of things going for him: His hobbies, his strategic mind, his kindness to Sakura and his retainers (helping Oboro set up her shop had nothing to do with his own problems). Then there are bad sides, like his spoiled attitude (He complains how he shouldn't need to do "manual labor" in his and Mozu's support as well as random MyCastle duties) and the cat-fights he has with Leon before they actually get to know each other in Revelations, as well as a general childishness and the hot-headedness you described.

His issues are part of him and you cannot judge his behaviour without at least considering them, but they are also not all he is.

I hope that made sense, I am having some trouble articulating my feelings on that issue.

No worries, my dude, you're being plenty clear. I fully understand what you mean, and I agree that his insecurities are a part of him - it would be odd if they weren't - I just, again, don't want people to think that's all he is or that most of his personality are just a result of them. I like him as a bit of a douche!

Really, I think we're largely in agreement here. Maybe we should focus on characters that need fixing, like main story!Xander.

Maaan, fuck main story!Xander.

I definitely don't think or expect that everyone should understand Takumi, but I will definitely challenge DragonFlames' assertion that his supports portray a different character from the rest of the story (again, unless you're talking Conquest) or that Leo is a 'better done' Takumi (they share some similarities, but are different for good reasons).

Wait what? When does that happen? Did he confuse Takumi with Xander?

[Sunwoo]

or would you rather had, Azura is King Garon's biological daughter, Corrin is the Hoshido 4 royals biological sibling. Azura and Corrin are only allowed to S-support each other and no other royals

This. This is how it should've been in the first place.