How would you have handled Corrin's family?

[BlueBloodEmblazer]

Not really related to the topic, but I think each royal should have had only one retainer. It was so boring seeing people join because their master joined you.

Xander-Laslow then Peri (I'll explain later)

Ryoma-Saizo

Camilla-Beruka

Hinoka-Setsuna

Leo-Niles

Takumi-Oboro, (or Hinata if they wanted a more developed OboroXTakumi romance)

Elise-Effie

Sakura-Hana

Corrin-First servant

Azura-Maybe an entirely new character or Subaki?

Garon-Gunter

Mikoto-Reina

I do not understand why Azura and Garon don't get any retainers.

[DragonFlames]

Not really related to the topic, but I think each royal should have had only one retainer. It was so boring seeing people join because their master joined you.

Xander-Laslow then Peri (I'll explain later)

Ryoma-Saizo

Camilla-Beruka

Hinoka-Setsuna

Leo-Niles

Takumi-Oboro, (or Hinata if they wanted a more developed OboroXTakumi romance)

Elise-Effie

Sakura-Hana

Corrin-First servant

Azura-Maybe an entirely new character or Subaki?

Garon-Gunter

Mikoto-Reina

I do not understand why Azura and Garon don't get any retainers.

Garon has Hans and Iago, as far as I'm concerned, since the two appear with him most of the time in Conquest and both definitely are the most openly loyal towards him in Birthright (aside from Xander, of course).

About Takumi: It is of course a personal thing with him, but to me, realistic doesn't automatically equal likable. In fact, the way he deals with his insecurities - by being an arrogant douche - is the very thing I hate about this guy.

But that really does relate to my personal past and insecurities that I had and still have in parts, which I am not really inclined to share, so bear with me on that one.

Rest assured, I didn't treat people around me like shit because of it.

But anyways, to all of you: thank you for not giving me heat for disliking Takumi. I've had different experiences with me voicing my opinion on the guy, so let me just say thank you for that.

Have a happy new year!

Edited January 1, 2017 by DragonFlames

[BlueBloodEmblazer]

Not really related to the topic, but I think each royal should have had only one retainer. It was so boring seeing people join because their master joined you.

Xander-Laslow then Peri (I'll explain later)

Ryoma-Saizo

Camilla-Beruka

Hinoka-Setsuna

Leo-Niles

Takumi-Oboro, (or Hinata if they wanted a more developed OboroXTakumi romance)

Elise-Effie

Sakura-Hana

Corrin-First servant

Azura-Maybe an entirely new character or Subaki?

Garon-Gunter

Mikoto-Reina

I do not understand why Azura and Garon don't get any retainers.

Now how I would have handled Awakening trio. The squad is brought to this place because maybe Naga lost something and needed them to go get it in Nohr? Laslow becomes Xander's retainer. Laslow also befriends one of the knights named Peri. Laslow helps Peri work through her issues. Selena and Odin search the place for the artifact while Laslow pokes around the castle. By the end of the story the trio are ready to head home with the artifact. Peri becomes Xander's new retainer thanks to Laslow's help and guidance. The trio say bye and leave with their spouses (and kids) if they have any. They cannot marry retainers or royals because it creates a plothole. If Corrin marries one then Corrin has an post-endgame choice to leave with the spouse or stay in Hoshido/Nohr. That decision will decide what ending you will get.

[Res]

Garon has Hans and Iago, as far as I'm concerned, since the two appear with him most of the time in Conquest and both definitely are the most openly loyal towards him in Birthright (aside from Xander, of course).

About Takumi: It is of course a personal thing with him, but to me, realistic doesn't automatically equal likable. In fact, the way he deals with his insecurities - by being an arrogant douche - is the very thing I hate about this guy. But that really does relate to my personal past and insecurities that I have, which I am not really inclined to share, so bear with me on that one.

Or maybe it's the German translation hiding any redeeming qualities under a rabble of douchy commentary and incessant whining. I don't know.

It's possible something's lost in translation, since I really don't get the same read of arrogant douche, and his commentary, at least in Birthright, is about the only reasonable commentary given by a character (his suspicions of Zola, etc.). As for his supports, he's initially snappy to a few people, but it's in the C-support only. (Corrin, Azura, Felicia (although he's already helping Felicia by the end of the C-support), Setsuna (understandable; she's useless), Elise and Leo - less than half his supports!).

[DragonFlames]

It's possible something's lost in translation, since I really don't get the same read of arrogant douche, and his commentary, at least in Birthright, is about the only reasonable commentary given by a character (his suspicions of Zola, etc.). As for his supports, he's initially snappy to a few people, but it's in the C-support only. (Corrin, Azura, Felicia (although he's already helping Felicia by the end of the C-support), Setsuna (understandable; she's useless), Elise and Leo - less than half his supports!).

Actually, I found the supports with him and Setsuna to be incredibly hilarious, which is why I always put these two together in my Birthright or Revelations files.

The German translation in itself is quite dodgy in places, replacing cute lines with less-cute ones. Velouria's S-support with Corrin underwent some changes, if I remember correctly. And Elise comes across as way more sassy in some of her supports.

And there were several instances of "Denglish" (Deutsch (=German) + English) and Gelman (German equivalent to Engrish) as well.

[Namarid]

I would have made Azura the child of Garon and Arete and Corrin the child of Sumeragi and Mikoto. Valla doesn't exist. Camilla and Hinoka both get the axe because they add nothing relevant to the story. This leaves Xander/Ryoma to be the big threats on the opposite sides, Leo/Takumi to be the constant thorn in your side(plus they're fantastic characters) and Elise/Sakura to make you feel like shit for choosing to side against them.

I think Elise was handled well in BIrthright and I wish Sakura was handled the same way in Birthright. With Hinoka's removal, Sakura would now be the queen of a war torn country at a young age who also has to deal with the loss of her entire family...pretty depressing I know but Conquest shouldn't have a happy ending.

Not really related to the topic, but I think each royal should have had only one retainer. It was so boring seeing people join because their master joined you.

Xander-Laslow then Peri (I'll explain later)

Ryoma-Saizo

Camilla-Beruka

Hinoka-Setsuna

Leo-Niles

Takumi-Oboro, (or Hinata if they wanted a more developed OboroXTakumi romance)

Elise-Effie

Sakura-Hana

Corrin-First servant

Azura-Maybe an entirely new character or Subaki?

Garon-Gunter

Mikoto-Reina

I would remove the awakening trio completely since they're just fanservice. As much as I like Odin and Laslow they can go.

Personally, if we we're going one retainer only, I think they should be:

Xander-Silas

Leo-NIles

Elise-Effie

Ryoma-Saizo

Takumi-HInata

Sakura-Hana

Corrin-First servant, but you get to pick which one and the one who doesn't get picked doesn't exist in the story. Flora still exists

Azura-Kaze

Garon-Iago and Gunter

MIkoto-Yukimura and Reina

[Nanima]

Garon has Hans and Iago, as far as I'm concerned, since the two appear with him most of the time in Conquest and both definitely are the most openly loyal towards him in Birthright (aside from Xander, of course).

About Takumi: It is of course a personal thing with him, but to me, realistic doesn't automatically equal likable. In fact, the way he deals with his insecurities - by being an arrogant douche - is the very thing I hate about this guy.

But that really does relate to my personal past and insecurities that I had and still have in parts, which I am not really inclined to share, so bear with me on that one.

Rest assured, I didn't treat people around me like shit because of it.

But anyways, to all of you: thank you for not giving me heat for disliking Takumi. I've had different experiences with me voicing my opinion on the guy, so let me just say thank you for that.

Have a happy new year!

Thank you for your kind reply. I get why people can be turned of by certain types of characters because of past experiences. At the same time, like Res I also didn't have the "arrogant douche" reading of him. Sure, he can be very rude at times, but most of these are concentrated in C-supports and they didn't feel like he was being actively malicious to others. I have met some incredibly awful people in the past who were either very manipulative in their insults or outright bullies. Takumi never singles people out and hunts them down to be rude to them (other than CQ!Corrin and to be honest they kinda deserve that.), most of these situations come about when people are actively moving into his space and he is trying to get out of interacting with them. As problematic and unkind as that is, I don't find it as reprehensible as say, Jakob's often incredibly mean-spirited insults where it really does feel like he is enjoying other people's reaction to them.

Whether primarily agressive or defensive, an abrasive attitude can't be called positive, but I feel with the latter it doesn't have to mean that the person employing it is actually awful.

Takumi also usually immediately drops his attitude once he has gotten closer to people (usually at B-support). It's clear that being mean isn't his default setting in his actual interpersonal dynamics. He has many, many moments of kindness, which are never motivated by a desire for personal profit.

This is not meant to invalidate your own opinion on the matter. I certainly can understand having personal misgivings for characters like him. Personally, Takumi resonates because I too have sometimes used anger in the past as a way of covering for my insecurities. I am not proud of it, and I certainly don't want to excuse any of it, but it makes me empathize with Takumi and understand that his behaviour is not intentionally malicious.

As for people giving you a hard time, that's definitly wrong of them. The thing is that most Takumi fans feel very personally attached ot him and interpret much of themselves into him, so negative feedback often feels like a personal attack. Not trying to excuse it, just explaining the psychology behind it.

[Res]

But anyways, to all of you: thank you for not giving me heat for disliking Takumi. I've had different experiences with me voicing my opinion on the guy, so let me just say thank you for that.

Have a happy new year!

I'm sorry you've caught some heat before! I definitely understand why some people dislike Takumi, but I'm always keen to know why, because often it's because people experienced him first in Conquest or haven't delved much in his supports. That's usually why I try and engage people in discussion, because I'm curious, and as Nanima says:

As for people giving you a hard time, that's definitly wrong of them. The thing is that most Takumi fans feel very personally attached ot him and interpret much of themselves into him, so negative feedback often feels like a personal attack. Not trying to excuse it, just explaining the psychology behind it.

I definitely am a little guilty of this (the initial taking-it-personally), although I usually manage to internalize it.

Happy new year!

Personally, if we we're going one retainer only, I think they should be:

Xander-Silas

Leo-NIles

Elise-Effie

Ryoma-Saizo

Takumi-HInata

Sakura-Hana

Corrin-First servant, but you get to pick which one and the one who doesn't get picked doesn't exist in the story. Flora still exists

Azura-Kaze

Garon-Iago and Gunter

MIkoto-Yukimura and Reina

Curious choices - would you have rewritten Silas and Kaze to suit? Edited January 1, 2017 by Res

[BlueBloodEmblazer]

I would have made Azura the child of Garon and Arete and Corrin the child of Sumeragi and Mikoto. Valla doesn't exist. Camilla and Hinoka both get the axe because they add nothing relevant to the story. This leaves Xander/Ryoma to be the big threats on the opposite sides, Leo/Takumi to be the constant thorn in your side(plus they're fantastic characters) and Elise/Sakura to make you feel like shit for choosing to side against them.

I think Elise was handled well in BIrthright and I wish Sakura was handled the same way in Birthright. With Hinoka's removal, Sakura would now be the queen of a war torn country at a young age who also has to deal with the loss of her entire family...pretty depressing I know but Conquest shouldn't have a happy ending.

I would remove the awakening trio completely since they're just fanservice. As much as I like Odin and Laslow they can go.

Personally, if we we're going one retainer only, I think they should be:

Xander-Silas

Leo-NIles

Elise-Effie

Ryoma-Saizo

Takumi-HInata

Sakura-Hana

Corrin-First servant, but you get to pick which one and the one who doesn't get picked doesn't exist in the story. Flora still exists

Azura-Kaze

Garon-Iago and Gunter

MIkoto-Yukimura and Reina

Yeah the Awakening trio doesn't need to be there, but I'd rather fix it instead of just remove it.

Edited January 1, 2017 by BlueBloodEmblazer

[Namarid]

Curious choices - would you have rewritten Silas and Kaze to suit?

Silas would mostly have the same backstory but takes Peri's place in the competition that led to her becoming a retainer. After being caught for taking Corrin out of the Northern Fortress Silas is given a chance to keep his life if he beats Xander in battle. He obviously loses but before Xander executes him Corrin begs him to spare Silas' life because he is "his best friend". This combined with Silas' skill and potential leads Xander to spare him but Silas is forbidden from visiting Corrin again. Silas vows to become a knight to see Corrin again, he trains and ,years later, takes part in the retainer selection competition. He competes so he has a chance to serve Corrin but by the end of it he becomes Xander's retainer instead since he remembers him and is impressed with the progress he has made.

I wouldn't rewrite much about Kaze apart from him now serving Azura ,since she is Corrin's replacement, instead of waiting to serve Corrin. The main point of this is so he has a better reason to join Corrin on Conquest. Instead of blindly trusting what Corrin says he trusts Azura's judgement whom he has known for a long time.

[BlueBloodEmblazer]

Silas would mostly have the same backstory but takes Peri's place in the competition that led to her becoming a retainer. After being caught for taking Corrin out of the Northern Fortress Silas is given a chance to keep his life if he beats Xander in battle. He obviously loses but before Xander executes him Corrin begs him to spare Silas' life because he is "his best friend". This combined with Silas' skill and potential leads Xander to spare him but Silas is forbidden from visiting Corrin again. Silas vows to become a knight to see Corrin again, he trains and ,years later, takes part in the retainer selection competition. He competes so he has a chance to serve Corrin but by the end of it he becomes Xander's retainer instead since he remembers him and is impressed with the progress he has made.

I wouldn't rewrite much about Kaze apart from him now serving Azura ,since she is Corrin's replacement, instead of waiting to serve Corrin. The main point of this is so he has a better reason to join Corrin on Conquest. Instead of blindly trusting what Corrin says he trusts Azura's judgement whom he has known for a long time.

Would Silas still join in Birthright, and would he join earlier than Xander in Rev.?

[Namarid]

Would Silas still join in Birthright, and would he join earlier than Xander in Rev.?

He wouldn't join you in Birthright but he would be a recurring character that helps you in some chapters as a green unit and finally becomes an enemy when you battle Xander for the last time. Chapters that he helps you in would be those where the opposing side is bringing shame to Nohr by acting despicably or the opposing side is committing injustices.

In revelations he would join at the same time Xander does.

What do you guys think about the idea of Mikoto surviving past chapter 5 and becoming a boss later on in Conquest? Her character could be rewritten to be prejudiced against Nohrians because of the loss of her husband and the kidnapping of her child. This prejudice leads her to refrain from helping Nohr's food problem. Since she is adamant about not helping Nohr you are forced to fight her so that Nohr can get the food needed to survive.

[Hero of the Fire Emblems]

Looking at the comments I'm probably gonna get shot for this (again) but here's my two cents

I feel like Fates is partly a victim of bad localization/bad allocation of Main plot/support convos; half of the support convos really should have been in the main plot, because some things that are said make the plot much more justifiable and reasonable

Firstly, if I were to change anything about the lineage I'd have MU14 and Azura outright be half siblings (Anankos as the father of both). This is sort of implied anyway (take a look at Human Anankos and tell me with a straight face he doesn't look like a male Azura), but I might have that as the plot twist at the end of Rev- half siblings like Sileph and Julia would be a much stronger twist than "cousins but we aren't really gonna care about that". I MIGHT make Mikoto the mother of Takumi/Sakura but even that I really debate since I honestly didn't have enough of a problem with it to care.

Second, Id make it much more blatant outside of support conversations and Cipher how good of a person Garon was prior to his corruption by Anankos. Both Xander (and a few other people)'s support convos and TCG Cipher allude to Garon being an actually decent king- enough so for the change to be nearly implausible to at least the Nohrian Royals, if not even the Nohrian Nobles that have been around for longer and probably Mikoto (though she seems to know what was going on so there's that). It's actually somewhat present in the game, it's just not blatant enough to make Garon an obvious Cornelius Achetype (which he is, and I'll get to that in a second) and sort of explain better why MU is trying to make Garon the person he was before (which may be because of Xander) or at least to reason with him. (MU does not know Garon is controlled until later on, keep in mind)

I'd also make it revealed outright near the end of Revelation that Anankos is MU's father soas to give MU a sense of inner conflict at the end of Revelation and a resolve to basically give Anankos a mercy kill, which is sort of what they went for with Conquest (it was just lost in the sea of bad translation+ poor support convo allocation)

I think one of the more subtle things they went for in Fates is they were going for a different Cornelius archetype per route- Sumeragi for Birthright, Garon for Conquest, and Anankos for Revelation. I actually really enjoyed this, but I again feel like 80% of things brought up in support convos should have been made more blatant in the main story, because not knowing about these support convos really can hurt the perception of the story overall and that's not a good thing (Magvel had sort of the same problem with this, though Magvel's lore is pretty much blank even taking that into account).

Finally, id make the subplot about Hoshido being an asshole that's brought up in Revelation supports and almost immediately dropped front and center in BR. Shit, maybe play off of the fact Sumeragi apparently has this deep seated desire for bloodlust (which honestly thinking back on it is a twist(?) in Revelation) and portray him as a flawed individual and make his whole "Hoshido was the one that pissed Nohr off in the first place" more believable from the main plot alone. The idea is honestly given lip service in Revelation, and I don't quite know if this is poor translation or poor support convo allocation (or a mix of both) but as it stands the idea should have been developed more in Birthright.

The angle of Sumeragi possibly having done something really horrible and may or may not have regretted it could also make Ryoma a foil to Xander; Ryoma trying to be better than his father, while Xander trying to live up to his father as he once was.

Her character could be rewritten to be prejudiced against Nohrians because of the loss of her husband and the kidnapping of her child. This prejudice leads her to refrain from helping Nohr's food problem. Since she is adamant about not helping Nohr you are forced to fight her so that Nohr can get the food needed to survive.

I feel like the food problem is already kind of implied to be pinned on Sumeragi, and he's kind of an asshole that's trying to murder his children for sport in Revelation (keep in mind Anankos only amplifies what already exists in one's heart, he does not insert anything directly, merely twisting what is already there). Garon is obviously no better (he turns into an equally shitty parent under Anankos's influence) but I feel like it's more believable if Sumeragi for whatever reason denied aiding Nohr, or at least his father did. Idk how I feel about the whole "Garon and Sumeragi were best buds" angle, to be completely honest. Edited January 2, 2017 by Hero of the Fire Emblems

[Thane]

I feel like Fates is partly a victim of bad localization

Do you have anything particular in mind? I played the Japanese version, and while my Japanese is not the best, I can tell you that the writing there was shit, too. Unless you try very, very hard to fail on purpose, you won't mess up a plot that badly just by localizing it.

I'd also make it revealed outright near the end of Revelation that Anankos is MU's father soas to give MU a sense of inner conflict at the end of Revelation and a resolve to basically give Anankos a mercy kill, which is sort of what they went for with Conquest

I assume you mean Garon was the one on the receiving end of that mercy kill? As you are no doubt well aware, Anankos is barely mentioned in Conquest.

(it was just lost in the sea of bad translation+ poor support convo allocation)

Again with the localization I see. I'm going to ask for specific proof, because Conquest was absolutely abysmal in Japanese as well. They didn't take a sensible plot and twist it with the localization - the material they had to work with was already very, very flawed.

Also, while I'm in agreement that they should've implemented certain supports into the main story, that would not have been nearly enough to justify anything that has to do with Garon. The man - through Anankos - is behind most of the things happening in the game, yet we know almost nothing about the guy, support conversations included. To make Garon likeable or at the very least sympathetic, you'd need to do more than bring a few vague allusions to how he was before the transformation found in Xander's supports.

but I feel like it's more believable if Sumeragi for whatever reason denied aiding Nohr.

What kind of aid? Would Sumeragi be obligated to lift Nohr out of poverty?

[BlueBloodEmblazer]

He wouldn't join you in Birthright but he would be a recurring character that helps you in some chapters as a green unit and finally becomes an enemy when you battle Xander for the last time. Chapters that he helps you in would be those where the opposing side is bringing shame to Nohr by acting despicably or the opposing side is committing injustices.

In revelations he would join at the same time Xander does.

What do you guys think about the idea of Mikoto surviving past chapter 5 and becoming a boss later on in Conquest? Her character could be rewritten to be prejudiced against Nohrians because of the loss of her husband and the kidnapping of her child. This prejudice leads her to refrain from helping Nohr's food problem. Since she is adamant about not helping Nohr you are forced to fight her so that Nohr can get the food needed to survive.

Seems kinda interesting. I would like it if the game spent a lot of time making you get to know Mikoto in BR, before she dies tragically. She just kinda suffers from the same stuff as Emmeryn.

[NekoKnight]

In regards to making Xander a more agreeable character, I don't think there is any avoiding rewriting Garon. Even if you were to give him some flash-backs to his more reasonable days, the Garon of the present day is a laughing-mad tyrant. It's just too much for Xander, or anyone, to ignore and pretend things will be hunky dory if we just take over the world. Garon needs to be evil, but with a purpose. All this "HAHAHAH, I want Kamui to suffer and die! Oh, didn't see you standing there, Xander. Uh... OBEY ME OR YOU WILL BE DESTROYED!" needs to go. It completely destroys Xander's credibility when he handwaves Garon wheezing like a man possessed (because he is!) about destroying his own country, as him "not feeling well".

The best thing about Vigarde was that his behavior, despite being different than his past self, still seemed like something a rational minded ruler would do. He didn't go out of his way to torture his loyal servants nor cackle insanely whenever he did something evil.

I feel like the food problem is already kind of implied to be pinned on Sumeragi, and he's kind of an asshole that's trying to murder his children for sport in Revelation (keep in mind Anankos only amplifies what already exists in one's heart, he does not insert anything directly, merely twisting what is already there). Garon is obviously no better (he turns into an equally shitty parent under Anankos's influence) but I feel like it's more believable if Sumeragi for whatever reason denied aiding Nohr, or at least his father did. Idk how I feel about the whole "Garon and Sumeragi were best buds" angle, to be completely honest.

This is only implied for people who are still living. Gunter and Takumi were corrupted but the other characters were already dead and under the complete control of Anankos. If you think they merely had their traits amplified, then you will have to suggest that some part of Mikoto wanted to deceive and murder her beloved Kamui, which is ridiculous.

[BlueBloodEmblazer]

In regards to making Xander a more agreeable character, I don't think there is any avoiding rewriting Garon. Even if you were to give him some flash-backs to his more reasonable days, the Garon of the present day is a laughing-mad tyrant. It's just too much for Xander, or anyone, to ignore and pretend things will be hunky dory if we just take over the world. Garon needs to be evil, but with a purpose. All this "HAHAHAH, I want Kamui to suffer and die! Oh, didn't see you standing there, Xander. Uh... OBEY ME OR YOU WILL BE DESTROYED!" needs to go. It completely destroys Xander's credibility when he handwaves Garon wheezing like a man possessed (because he is!) about destroying his own country, as him "not feeling well".

The best thing about Vigarde was that his behavior, despite being different than his past self, still seemed like something a rational minded ruler would do. He didn't go out of his way to torture his loyal servants nor cackle insanely whenever he did something evil.

This is only implied for people who are still living. Gunter and Takumi were corrupted but the other characters were already dead and under the complete control of Anankos. If you think they merely had their traits amplified, then you will have to suggest that some part of Mikoto wanted to deceive and murder her beloved Kamui, which is ridiculous.

Like I said earlier. Garon should be depressed and Iago is the puppet master. When Azura comes to Nohr she goes to his room at night to assassinate him. He notices her and tells her if she's going to kill him she should do it. She doesn't go through with it and they talk for a little bit. Afterward later in the story Azura comes to accept him as Father and pulls him out of depression. He still dies, but he dies happy.

[Hero of the Fire Emblems]

In regards to making Xander a more agreeable character, I don't think there is any avoiding rewriting Garon. Even if you were to give him some flash-backs to his more reasonable days, the Garon of the present day is a laughing-mad tyrant. It's just too much for Xander, or anyone, to ignore and pretend things will be hunky dory if we just take over the world. Garon needs to be evil, but with a purpose. All this "HAHAHAH, I want Kamui to suffer and die! Oh, didn't see you standing there, Xander. Uh... OBEY ME OR YOU WILL BE DESTROYED!" needs to go. It completely destroys Xander's credibility when he handwaves Garon wheezing like a man possessed (because he is!) about destroying his own country, as him "not feeling well".

To be completely fair with this, he doesn't go completely over the edge until halfway through Revelation and he seems to have some sort of narrative that Hoshido started it and it's nessicary to do (judging by the first six chapters and how the siblings and Xander in particular merely say "we're at war with Hoshido" as if they're in the right here) Whenever he's completely over the edge and starts talking about destroying Nohr, that's when both Leo and Xander realize there's more to it than whatever it was they were thinking. It also seems plausible (or rather, it seemed to be the case at first) that earlier on Garon wanted to eliminate MU14 due to possibly being a spy, or rather this seems to at least be the conclusion Xander came to. His narrative is "Hoshido die die die" in Conquest at least, Birthight and Revelation make it seem he's more open about his intentions for Nohr than before.

Even so, Xander is a pretty direct reference to Camus that goes way beyond normal archetypes, and devotion to the nation's ruler seemingly in the face of all logic is a Hangup of Camus and those that follow the archetype in general. I'd argue that Xander at minimum has a far better excuse (ignorance of Garon's true nature outside of Revelation and the sense of duty he has to protect Nohr and perhaps specifically his siblings in addition) than Eldigan or god forbid Selena fucking Flourspar who basically tries to help Formortiis destroy the world for zero reason even after openly coming to terms with Viguarde. Completely aware and accepting of the fact she has no chance to revive him, she just turns into a crazy psychotic bitch and her answer is to help enslave/kill everyone in the entire world (which would be exactly what Vigarde wouldn't want) literally for no reason at all that would fit any of her established character or goals, or even her misconceptions and knowledge since we know she's fully aware of her actions. And the ones in Tellius also have mostly zero reason with maybe the sole exception of Shiharam (unless you count opposing player armies in FE10 as Camuses, which I don't). Xander by contrast at least has the saving grace of "I can fix him" and "It's for the greater good of Nohr" (on top of turning his ass around once he's shown Garon has no chance to be brought back in CQ and Rev) that they didn't even bother with with Selena or any Camus in Tellius.

The best thing about Vigarde was that his behavior, despite being different than his past self, still seemed like something a rational minded ruler would do. He didn't go out of his way to torture his loyal servants nor cackle insanely whenever he did something evil.

He also acts like a damned robot in such a manner in at least Ephraim's route that I'm surprised no one caught on sooner; he repeats what are clearly Pre designated quotes over and over again like a broken record (see his conversation with Duessel, which is not unlike what happens to Orson's wife) and one of if not THE only time we see him without Lyon/Formortiis he is completely and utterly mute. He doesn't seem so much a person as a mindless robot, so it's not exactly a perfectly flawless disguise either (and it seems it intentionally isn't, because it probably is intended as foreshadowing with how he talks). There's also the whole "I'm going to preemptively have Duesell killed" thing.

This is only implied for people who are still living. Gunter and Takumi were corrupted but the other characters were already dead and under the complete control of Anankos. If you think they merely had their traits amplified, then you will have to suggest that some part of Mikoto wanted to deceive and murder her beloved Kamui, which is ridiculous.

Notice I didn't say merely amplified; I also specifically said it was TWISTED as well: "Mikoto: "You've come for me, haven't you, [Avatar]... When you were kidnapped I was devastated. I always wanted to get back all that time we lost. And now I can. If you surrender, we can serve Anankos together... forever..." I think her Vs quote against MU14 makes it pretty cut and dry what's going on here. Her desire to be with her child again is still very much present and is the underlying motive behind her actions in her mind, but it's twisted into something resembling a yandere mindset- "I'll have him forever and ever now and everyone else has to go", but also throw in the fact she's wholly convinced MU can "join" her upon MU's death. It's her desire to be with MU again amplified and twisted into a desperate and insane obsession, and I think her dialogue made that pretty cut and dry throughout that chapter.

Back to trying to work on projects that have a deadline next month lol

Edited January 5, 2017 by Hero of the Fire Emblems

[Thane]

So will you give me the examples of the localization that ruined the main story of Fates or not? I've been wondering about those for a while now.

To be completely fair with this, he doesn't go completely over the edge until halfway through Revelation and he seems to have some sort of narrative that Hoshido started it and it's nessicary to do (judging by the first six chapters and how the siblings and Xander in particular merely say "we're at war with Hoshido" as if they're in the right here) Whenever he's completely over the edge and starts talking about destroying Nohr, that's when both Leo and Xander realize there's more to it than whatever it was they were thinking. It also seems plausible (or rather, it seemed to be the case at first) that earlier on Garon wanted to eliminate MU14 due to possibly being a spy, or rather this seems to at least be the conclusion Xander came to. His narrative is "Hoshido die die die" in Conquest at least, Birthight and Revelation make it seem he's more open about his intentions for Nohr than before.

Yeah no.

In the prologue, Garon has Corrin kill prisoners of war for sport, tells Xander to kill them when they refuse to finish them off, assigns them and Gunter a psychotic murderer (whom Xander had personally arrested earlier) during their first mission .

The very first thing that happens in Conquest is Xander finding out about the sword Garon gave Corrin exploding and killing a bunch of people, first hearing of it from Ryouma and then asking Corrin for confirmation. Garon then wants to have Corrin killed for coming back before sending them on a mission to stop a rebellion single-handedly, after which he has an evil monologue about how he wants Corrin to suffer to the point they'll ask for the release of death, which Garon will deny them, which Xander overhears.

That's before chapter seven of Conquest even starts. You don't think that's going too far? Then there's the whole war. You know, the unjustified invasion which results in a bunch of people dying.

Even so, Xander is a pretty direct reference to Camus that goes way beyond normal archetypes, and devotion to the nation's ruler seemingly in the face of all logic is a Hangup of Camus and those that follow the archetype in general.

That's never an excuse. Bad writing is bad writing. Xander's personality and supports clash so completely with his portrayal in the main story that they might as well be two different characters.

I'd argue that Xander at minimum has a far better excuse (ignorance of Garon's true nature outside of Revelation and the sense of duty he has to protect Nohr and perhaps specifically his siblings in addition)

Like I mentioned in the first quote, Xander is not ignorant of this at all, he just chooses not to do anything about it.

The war also goes against everything Xander believes in, yet he keeps serving Garon anyway. I realize he's supposed to be loyal, but when he serves someone he knows to be evil and goes against the country's best interests even though that's such a huge part of his motivation, it makes him come across as a hypocritical asshole.

Xander by contrast at least has the saving grace of "I can fix him" and "It's for the greater good of Nohr" (on top of turning his ass around once he's shown Garon has no chance to be brought back in CQ and Rev)

One of Xander's very first lines in the game is telling Ryouma to essentially eat shit and die while he invades Hoshido. The reasons for the war are never explained or talked about in detail, so that motivation makes no sense in the context of the story, and thus Xander' whole shtick of fighting for his country's best interests is rendered pointless, since everything we're shown points to him doing the exact opposite of what he's claiming.

Xander also prolongs the war by not letting the Hoshidans die in Izumo in Conquest, thinking it's more honorable to fully invade the nation and sacrifice entire armies as opposed to killing four people he most likely figured would end up dead anyway. In Hoshido, he takes the easy way out and even admits to knowing Garon is evil, if memory serves. In Revelation, he needs yet another literal evil monologue to actually defy his father.

Main story Xander is literally the weakest playable character in the entire franchise. He's a villain in two and a half routes and only saved by a plot convenience in Revelation.

For comparison, here's how Radiant Dawn treated Hetzel, a man who also didn't stand up for what he knew to be right. Keep in mind though that this was a single, old man who merely watched events unfold, not take an active part in making sure they happened like in the case of Xander, who also had a lot more personal power and more allies.

[spoiler=Radiant Dawn]Sanaki: Hetzel... I had thought that you alone might be above Lekain's foul conspiracy! It saddens me to see you at his side.

Hetzel: N-no, Apostle Sanaki! I--
Sanaki: I didn't ask for excuses! You fight alongside Lekain. That's more proof than I'll ever need.
Hetzel: ...You are right I fight with him. I had no choice. But...please, understand that I've always done my best to honor and respect Your Majesty.
Sanaki: Then how do you explain my confinement in Mainal Cathedral?
Hetzel: I-I didn't do anything! It was all Lekain! I didn't know anything about it, and only heard later...
Sanaki: And when you did hear of it, why didn't you stop it?
Hetzel: I...couldn't. Actually, I could have, but I didn't say anything. It was the same with Misaha, and the Serenes Massacre... I...
Sanaki: ...Didn't say anything. In other words, you stood by as my grandmother and Serenes people were killed!

Hetzel: P-please forgive me...

He also acts like a damned robot in such a manner in at least Ephraim's route that I'm surprised no one caught on sooner; he repeats what are clearly Pre designated quotes over and over again like a broken record (see his conversation with Duessel, which is not unlike what happens to Orson's wife) and one of if not THE only time we see him without Lyon/Formortiis he is completely and utterly mute. He doesn't seem so much a person as a mindless robot, so it's not exactly a perfectly flawless disguise either (and it seems it intentionally isn't, because it probably is intended as foreshadowing with how he talks). There's also the whole "I'm going to preemptively have Duesell killed" thing.

People know something is wrong and actually do speak up when they feel things have gone to far. It also helps that Vigarde doesn't twirl his moustache every five minutes unlike Garon, whose obvious evil people conveniently ignore. There's no comparing the two.

[NekoKnight]

Like I said earlier. Garon should be depressed and Iago is the puppet master. When Azura comes to Nohr she goes to his room at night to assassinate him. He notices her and tells her if she's going to kill him she should do it. She doesn't go through with it and they talk for a little bit. Afterward later in the story Azura comes to accept him as Father and pulls him out of depression. He still dies, but he dies happy.

I don't see why being depressed would absolve Garon of his invasion of Hoshido. Even if Iago was pushing the agenda, Garon would still be responsible for what his nation does.

Even so, Xander is a pretty direct reference to Camus that goes way beyond normal archetypes, and devotion to the nation's ruler seemingly in the face of all logic is a Hangup of Camus and those that follow the archetype in general.

This "direct reference to" a character archtype doesn't justify or require the awful writing we got in Fates. Garon makes several attempts to murder Xander's foster sibling before the route split and he very openly wants Kamui to suffer and die despite his continued display of loyalty. Garon is needlessly cruel at best and insane at worst.

god forbid Selena fucking Flourspar who basically tries to help Formortiis destroy the world for zero reason even after openly coming to terms with Viguarde. Completely aware and accepting of the fact she has no chance to revive him, she just turns into a crazy psychotic bitch and her answer is to help enslave/kill everyone in the entire world (which would be exactly what Vigarde wouldn't want) literally for no reason at all that would fit any of her established character or goals, or even her misconceptions and knowledge since we know she's fully aware of her actions.

Whoa Whoa Whoa, That's where you're wrong, kiddo. Vigarde being controlled by Formortiis isn't known to most people and iirc, he and the Sacred Stones true purpose have practically fallen into legend. As far as anyone besides maybe Knoll and Lyon knows, they're just invading the other nations, not fighting to revive the Demon King. Selena is a better Camus than Xander because she acknowledges the immorality of her actions and she explains her motivation clearly. Vigarde saved her from starvation and poverty so she loved the man. She understands that Vigarde probably won't change but can't bring herself to oppose the man who gave her life back. We never hear in detail what Garon was like in the past to sympathize with Xander's loyalty and his present state is so "MWA HA HA" evil that it defies belief that any moral person would follow him.

Xander by contrast at least has the saving grace of "I can fix him" and "It's for the greater good of Nohr" (on top of turning his ass around once he's shown Garon has no chance to be brought back in CQ and Rev) that they didn't even bother with with Selena or any Camus in Tellius.

Xander's "I can fix him" is the absurd belief that somehow taking over the continent will make his dad sane again. "For the greater good of Nohr" also has almost no explanation besides one line in Birthright that suggests Nohrians envied Hoshido's resources. I wanted to believe that resources would be a central motivation for Nohr, but that just isn't what the game wants to talk about.

I explained Selena and Thane already brought up Hetzel.

Notice I didn't say merely amplified; I also specifically said it was TWISTED as well: "Mikoto: "You've come for me, haven't you, [Avatar]... When you were kidnapped I was devastated. I always wanted to get back all that time we lost. And now I can. If you surrender, we can serve Anankos together... forever..." I think her Vs quote against MU14 makes it pretty cut and dry what's going on here. Her desire to be with her child again is still very much present and is the underlying motive behind her actions in her mind, but it's twisted into something resembling a yandere mindset- "I'll have him forever and ever now and everyone else has to go", but also throw in the fact she's wholly convinced MU can "join" her upon MU's death. It's her desire to be with MU again amplified and twisted into a desperate and insane obsession, and I think her dialogue made that pretty cut and dry throughout that chapter.

That definition of "twisted" is no different than mind control. All of Anankos' puppets are completely loyal to him. What compelled Scarlet or any of the other invisible soldiers to fight you? I don't think it's fair to say "Yeah, Sumeragi was a total asshole" after looking at his possessed form. No one was in their right mind, even if they maintained some semblance of their past personality.

[Sasori]

First of all I would use the different Nohr siblings to show different perspective about the war on Hoshido. In the current story they all don't like it, but blindly follow Garon. I can understand some daddy issue's, but making that the only focus makes the conflict uninteresting and makes for some terribly descisions on Xander's part.

Leo is the pragmatic of the bunch so have him be cautiously in favour of the war. He doesn't like it, but feels like Nohr needs the spoils of war to support itself.

Elise is the most innocent of the bunch and would be the biggest anti war voice.

Xander could be a balance between the two. Seeing the need for the war and being conflicted between his loyalty to his country/dad and about his distaste for war and its victims

Camilla would probably focus more on the affects the war would have on her family and Corrin.

Garon would be rewritten as him actually pretending to give a shit. He gives no solid motivation for the war or anything else for that matter. Him being possesed by Anakos is all fine and dandy, but he should at least bother to make a case for why war is good. As far as Nohr knows they are only going to war because Garon is hungry and he already ate all the Nohrian babies.

Hoshido is a bit more tricky, but I would start by making some sense out of Ryoma. Why is he in Chev and not his own country and why is he not actually the one in charge? I would also cut the scene in which he admits he was jealous of a toddler since thats the most pathetic thing I ever heard.

Edit: Also yeah being able to marry the Hoshidan siblings should never have happened and they should have been his actual family as the game advertised.

Edited January 5, 2017 by Sasori

[BlueBloodEmblazer]

I don't see why being depressed would absolve Garon of his invasion of Hoshido. Even if Iago was pushing the agenda, Garon would still be responsible for what his nation does.

He's too depressed too care. The depression is caused from losing his wife, and the only information he has about the war is from Iago and Xander. Lack of sleep, exercise, and diet also makes him ill. In his mind Hoshido is attacking Nohr, when really Nohr is attacking Hoshido. Another reason could be a desperate attempt at gaining supplies?

If he was still going to be evil I would have him going out and actually do stuff. I should just do a fire emblem fates rewrite on youtube.

[Time the Crestfallen]

He's too depressed too care. The depression is caused from losing his wife, and the only information he has about the war is from Iago and Xander. Lack of sleep, exercise, and diet also makes him ill. In his mind Hoshido is attacking Nohr, when really Nohr is attacking Hoshido. Another reason could be a desperate attempt at gaining supplies?

If he was still going to be evil I would have him going out and actually do stuff. I should just do a fire emblem fates rewrite on youtube.

Eh, stills seems kinda flimsy. If you're trying to make him sympathetic, then having him let all of the atrocities happen because he's depressed and can't be bothered to care is hardly an appropriate motive.

[Radiant head]

though "kinda flimsy" is a massive step up from what we actually got

[BlueBloodEmblazer]

Eh, stills seems kinda flimsy. If you're trying to make him sympathetic, then having him let all of the atrocities happen because he's depressed and can't be bothered to care is hardly an appropriate motive.

True, but I really like the idea of Azura coming to Nohr and being scared of him. Then willing to kill him so Hoshido will accept her back, just to not be able to go through with it, and coming to accept Garon as her father. We can't do all of that with evil Garon.

Edited January 7, 2017 by BlueBloodEmblazer