Why do some people say the path of radiance is the best in the series story wise?

[geraq]

lol, Ashnard's meritocratic take on Daein basically makes him Fire Emblem Napoleon, if albeit a psychotically insane one who wants to burn the world down because its funny to him. The same thing happened in post-Revolution France where a lot of commoners and peasants got out of poverty simply by serving as soldiers and securing fortunes on battlefield merit.

Fire Emblem Napoleon should be its own thing, I'd love to see that game!

[Radiant head]

fire emblem is built on glorifying feudalism, so I can't really care that the laguz system specifically isn't criticized

[Xander]

Hi guys! You probably know me as that one person who gushes constantly about the tellius series...but recently that's starting to change ever since I've truly asked myself "why do I actually like these games so much?".

At first I thought it was because they were more serious than the newer games (where things like crashing into Camilla's...assets...wasn't a thing) but then I thought about the fact that fates has loads of death and sadness in it. I thought it was the one note characters but then I thought about how I like characters like heather (mainly because the rogue class is my favorite) even when they are pretty one note.

Basically, long story short, I'm wondering why I began thinking that the tellius series were some sort of holy grail that all future games should've aspired to become like. Now that I think about it, the fact that I paid so much money of it, combined with the fact that it seemed like everyone was praising that one game (as well as the Jugdral ones), could it be that others like me have possibly been influenced into thinking they were special when really they weren't any different from the newer ones?

I'd like to hear what you all think about this. If you like or dislike path of radiance (and other highly praised games on serenes forest) could anyone explain why they like it/hate it/or a meh about it.

I will always love the Tellius saga for not only getting me into the series, but also for reasons that would be hard to explain. These games have helped me through some tough times in my life, so I'll continue to support the series in any way possible and pray for the release of a third game of the tellius trilogy.

Edited January 12, 2017 by Xander

[CappnRob]

PoR is capable but unambitious. By FE's pretty low standards (generally capable but even less ambitious (FE8) or ambitious and handled terribly (FE4 and, from what I've heard, 13) it's a clear frontrunner, but it's good enough in its own right.

FE4's story is handled terribly? How exactly? Sure it shows its age (lack of supports and most side characterization being illustrated through lover conversations meaning you have to replay the game with different pairs to really see much characterization and the subs getting a lot more to them than the kids) but overall I thought it fairly well done for what there is. It absolutely stands out in the face of a typical FE plot with all the subterfuge and trickery in G1 (plus how it actually addresses and works with how Sigurd stomping and conquering Agustria caused more problems than it solved), and while G2 is a bit more of a standard FE save-the-world-plot its got some nice subtleties about it too.

[Anacybele]

These games have helped me through some tough times in my life,

I've actually had a similar experience! Though it was more so with just Ike rather than the Tellius series as a whole. Ike got me a really close friend that I've been talking to for years and back then I didn't have friends like that and I really wished I had. He was also there to make me smile when my grandmother passed. Just months after it happened, he was confirmed for Smash Wii U/3DS. And just a couple weeks after my birthday as well. So yeah, Ike's got a special place with me for all this, that's for sure. <3

[blah the Prussian]

fire emblem is built on glorifying feudalism, so I can't really care that the laguz system specifically isn't criticized

Well that isn't a problem for me.

[solrocknroll]

Well that isn't a problem for me.

are you seriously advocating for feudalism? unironically???

[blah the Prussian]

are you seriously advocating for feudalism? unironically???

Ironically actually. But I am a Monarchist, definitely, and I also think that FE generally isn't feudal, because most of the trappings of feudal society don't exist in most FE countries. Jugdral is the main exception, and FE4 ends with feudalism being abandoned in favor of absolute monarchy, and it's shown to be a leading factor in the rise of the Lopt Sect, so that's hardly glorifying it. The other games, though, don't have lords; they don't have feudal levies. Most of the other countries function more as enlightenment era absolute monarchies, with some exceptions (Lycia is a federation of city states ala Ancient Greece, Sacae is a tribal federation, Daein is more like a military dictatorship), and Begnion is pretty clearly based on the Roman Empire, which was not feudal (at least until Diocletian, but the Senate didn't have power under Diocletian). So overall I don't think FE actually glorifies Feudalism, it just glorifies Monarchy when ruled by a good person, and condemns Monarchy when ruled by a bad person.

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Is it good? Sure. I really liked Tellius' world, and politics. I don't adore the varying motivations of playable characters and the generically evil Daein characters, but most work in terms of narrative. Plus Ike and his mercenary group broke the then Fire Emblem protagonist issue of every main character being a stalwart protector of goodness and justice whose country has fallen before the start of the game. When the Greil Mercenaries seriously consider which side to take as war breaks out, you'd never see that in a previous game. Unfortunately, the game just isn't long enough to capitalize on the Laguz racism arc, so I'm grateful for the sequel in that regard. I don't like revenge sub plots, but the showdown with the black knight in a duel was surprisingly well done. It just wouldn't have the same impact if he was another boss on a throne of a large army battle, and separate endings for running away or merely surviving was a nice touch.

I guess my biggest problem in retrospect was the setting up for a sequel. There's a Zelgius tease at the end and not enough closure for countries not named Crimea. I don't think I can call it the best Fire Emblem plot. I usually give that honor to Radiant Dawn, which can't work at all without the existence of Path of Radiance. Or I give it to the chapters of Awakening that are before the one year time skip, since that was such a tightly written story that made use of every set piece.

[Captain Karnage]

In regards to people's issues, I think that a lot of issues dealing with the climax in this game has to do more with traditional story telling in video games. As with most games have the climax at the very end and immediately go to the resolution.

In almost every other medium the climax is nearing the end but not immediately at the end.

Ike facing the black knight was the climax of the story and the resolution was the defeat of Ashnard

[Thane]

Ike facing the black knight was the climax of the story and the resolution was the defeat of Ashnard

The problem for me wasn't that defeating Ashnard was the resolution, but that it was boring and impersonal. Ike didn't even recognize him until he got all up in Elincia's face and spouted some generic nonsense before starting the battle. Ashnard needed to have a much bigger presence in the story, but so much of it went to the Black Knight instead.

[BrightBow]

They also felt the need to make Ashnard invincible against anyone but Ike. The Black Knight probably had blessed armor so that it would be justified for Ike to go after him by himself without being irresponsible. But for Ashnard, there is just no reason. And there are so many cool interactions between Ashnard and other characters that are dragged down by the fact that those characters can't actually hurt the guy. Like, Tauroneo gets a really good on:

Tauroneo: …Now that I’ve confronted you and traded words with you, I have come to a decision. Throughout Daein, I, Tauroneo, will be known as the king killer. Come! Let me earn my name!

Sounds a lot less badass when his lance just deflects of Ashnard's armor.

[Jotari]

They also felt the need to make Ashnard invincible against anyone but Ike. The Black Knight probably had blessed armor so that it would be justified for Ike to go after him by himself without being irresponsible. But for Ashnard, there is just no reason. And there are so many cool interactions between Ashnard and other characters that are dragged down by the fact that those characters can't actually hurt the guy. Like, Tauroneo gets a really good on:

Tauroneo: …Now that I’ve confronted you and traded words with you, I have come to a decision. Throughout Daein, I, Tauroneo, will be known as the king killer. Come! Let me earn my name!

Sounds a lot less badass when his lance just deflects of Ashnard's armor.

The Black Knight being invincible also allows Mist to partake in Ike's dual without the possibility of her killing him and screwing up canon.

[NinjaMonkey]

They also felt the need to make Ashnard invincible against anyone but Ike.

That isn't true though, as Ena, Nasir, Tibarn, Giffca and Naesala are all able to do damage to Ashnard.

[Etrurian emperor]

They also felt the need to make Ashnard invincible against anyone but Ike. The Black Knight probably had blessed armor so that it would be justified for Ike to go after him by himself without being irresponsible. But for Ashnard, there is just no reason. And there are so many cool interactions between Ashnard and other characters that are dragged down by the fact that those characters can't actually hurt the guy. Like, Tauroneo gets a really good on:

Tauroneo: …Now that I’ve confronted you and traded words with you, I have come to a decision. Throughout Daein, I, Tauroneo, will be known as the king killer. Come! Let me earn my name!

Sounds a lot less badass when his lance just deflects of Ashnard's armor.

Its actually quite out of character for someone like Ashnard to ''cheat'' like that. If he craves good fights so much and thinks strength is everything then why should he wear an armor that ensures most opponents don't have a chance.

[BrightBow]

I'm just saying that wearing literal invincibility armor is an odd choice for both Ashnard and the Black Knight as they are both looking to fight strong opponents and to challenge themselves. So there must be some kind of benefit to them using it, either in terms of story or in gameplay. But Ike and Ashnard have no relationship with each other, so there is no reason for the game to encourage a confrontation like that.

Edited January 14, 2017 by BrightBow

[Jotari]

Its actually quite out of character for someone like Ashnard to ''cheat'' like that. If he craves good fights so much and thinks strength is everything then why should he wear an armor that ensures most opponents don't have a chance.

Well the Black Knight gave it to him as a present. He'd be a real insensitive boss if he didn't use it (now imagining some kind of office style comedy comic between the two characters). Actually maybe the narrative point of the invincibility armour was to subtly point towards Sephiran's involvement. From what I can recall his skill literally makes him invincible too right?

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Because Fire Emblem games in general are lacking in the story department and when they stand out, it's usually through some specific events like the Battle of Barhara in FE4.

FE9 arguably has the one lord in the series with the best origin and character development while the racism between the Beorcs and Laguz make for more interesting world building and conflicts than your typical "you control good guy, there is evil kingdom, go out there and stop it", which exists in this game too.

Edited January 14, 2017 by Dr. Tarrasque

[vanguard333]

Well, I can imagine characters like Ashnard and the Black Knight: characters who care about challenging themselves against strong opponents, would absolutely hate the idea of falling to a stray arrow or being stabbed in the back. So, even if it is cheating in a way, they would feel justified in that these would be prevented by blessed armor.

[ping]

Ashnard honestly never struck me as the guy who would let himself be restrained by silly concepts as morals or even "fairness". In his perspective, the armor of invulnerability might be just another tool that he managed to secure for himself, just as his real-dragon mount and his huge-ass sword; and if his opponent couldn't find a way to negate that, well, sucks to be them. It's all about power and I don't see in as OOC for Ashnard to go to any lengths to acculumate every advantage that he could possibly get.

As for the BK, keep in mind that Gawain and (when BK found out that Gawain had crippled himself) Ike are the only opponents that he just fought for the fight's sake. And in both cases, he wanted them to use Ragnell in order to ensure a fair fight. He dueled Skrimir later, but with the intention to beat down Gallia that way. And other than that, Zelgius' character is almost completely defined by his role as Sephiran's servant. As such, it doesn't really bug me that he uses his armor if only to make sure that Sephiran's plans don't fail because Zelgius gets killed in battle.

That said, from a gameplay perspective I don't like either how Ashnard can only be hurt by Ike and (in a single playthrough) two laguz that are either rather bad or (at least on HM) don't join until you've beaten Ashnard's first form.

[blah the Prussian]

Ashnard honestly never struck me as the guy who would let himself be restrained by silly concepts as morals or even "fairness". In his perspective, the armor of invulnerability might be just another tool that he managed to secure for himself, just as his real-dragon mount and his huge-ass sword; and if his opponent couldn't find a way to negate that, well, sucks to be them. It's all about power and I don't see in as OOC for Ashnard to go to any lengths to acculumate every advantage that he could possibly get.

As for the BK, keep in mind that Gawain and (when BK found out that Gawain had crippled himself) Ike are the only opponents that he just fought for the fight's sake. And in both cases, he wanted them to use Ragnell in order to ensure a fair fight. He dueled Skrimir later, but with the intention to beat down Gallia that way. And other than that, Zelgius' character is almost completely defined by his role as Sephiran's servant. As such, it doesn't really bug me that he uses his armor if only to make sure that Sephiran's plans don't fail because Zelgius gets killed in battle.

That said, from a gameplay perspective I don't like either how Ashnard can only be hurt by Ike and (in a single playthrough) two laguz that are either rather bad or (at least on HM) don't join until you've beaten Ashnard's first form.

I also think there's no contradiction; people who sing the praises of meritocracy are usually the ones who believe, correctly or not, that they are the best in society. Of course Ashnard believes in a strong survive system when he is strong. I think it adds to him as a character, and to a general point about ideology that I don't think the game was trying to make, but death of the author.

[geraq]

Well the Black Knight gave it to him as a present. He'd be a real insensitive boss if he didn't use it (now imagining some kind of office style comedy comic between the two characters).

LOL, good one! That should totally be its own thing too! Man, we are getting great ideas for spinoffs from this thread. If this isn't brainstorming, I don't know what it is.

Back to the point, why would Ashnard care for a fair fight? I believe his ideology is "if you want something, take it, anything goes" and in his vision "the strong" is the one willing to do anything to accomplish his goal, even murdering his family or destroying another country. I don't imagine him as some kind of philosopher supporting a merit-based system. He is more interesting that other human villains (Gharnef, Nergal, Manfloy), but I don't think he is so much deeper than them.

[Busterman64]

Ok, while I think a small part me loves PoR so much is because it made me fall in love with the series(I played FE7 and FE8 before hand, but they set the foundation while FE9 set a standard), I still love this game greatly. Also, not sure if this means much, but I played this game around the time I was 11 or 12 so I barely had any knowledge on it other then "It's a Fire Emblem game" back then. I went in with a blank(blind) slate.

Does this game have the best story? No, good as it is, it still has issues that I've noticed over the years(and while RD fixed some, some were added in). As for the series? Eh...I'd at least say its high up there for many reasons(but the other games aren't slouches in the story department).

Trust me, it's no Holy Greil! ;P

However, and I'm gonna sound like a broken record(and probably a parrot), but stuff like its world building and characters make it really good! It's honestly the game I remember almost everyone!

The story has nice pace and has some pretty smooth transitions from one thing to the next. It also, while deep, is easy to comprehend isn't all over the place. It stays consistent most of the ride through.

As for Ike, he's pretty relatable(not to say the other Lords aren't, but I feel like Ike honestly just starting out as normal guy made it a bit easier to connect to the guy). He's a pretty normal guy who eventually gains the right to be a Lord(despite how much of a "low class" title he apparently has compared to so many people like in Begnion and the likely hood of that even happening seemed low). He grows from a hothead fighter with bare any experience as a leader, to a respectable leader and a brave, but also wise, warrior. But it's also that he's pretty accepting of people, no matter who you are. 

And not to mention that Elincia, who grows from a weak princess to a strong fighter for her people, while done before, you see her change as time goes on as she is influenced by Ike and the Greil Mercenaries(and she herself chooses to fight, even though Ike and everyone has done a pretty good so far at that point. She wanted to fight for the sake of her people, her country, and those important to her).

Speaking of them, the Greil Mercenaries, being one big (mostly)happy family, show often how they care for one another through their interacts with each other.

Which is another thing...in things like Base Conversations(not sure it counts enough as story, but...oh well) you see interacts with most of the characters, even if a small bit. It makes you feel like they'll actually all fighting together in this War and aren't just...there. It makes everyone(and the world itself) seem more alive and connected(if that makes enough sense). Everyone gets the spotlight, even if for just a brief moment. Course its been done in FE7 and FE8(a bit more in FE8), but its done more here.

The whole Laguz racisim and slavery problem in the story(while it doesn't come all the way to light till RD, where the root of the issue started is finally explained more) kinda made it known that there are CLEARLY more issues going on in the world and that hate & fear can drive people to do horrible things(of course that's not to say the Laguz are complete innocent if Lethe's Support with Jill has anything to do with things turning how they did, but that still doesn't make it right for people to treat the Laguz that way either...)! More on that in a second...

And, most importantly, the writing...is COMPETENT! Forgive me for getting on the newer game's cases, but an issue that I've had with the newer games is that in their stories, there are glaring issues that I notice that make me scratch my head and go "Huh?! What?!" Thankfully, its an issue I never really had with PoR(as well as FE7 and FE8). I can go through the story and I'm not really confused about anything and it makes sense. Either something is told to me, it's hinted at, or I find out more stuff via supports(or possibly keeps it in mystery...which more then like is token care of in RD). 

Restoring Crimea also goes along with bettering the ties with the Laguz, who are pretty much either looked at as monsters or nothing more then slaves who can done whatever with(but at the same time, not all of them are good, but they can be just as bad as Beorc can). A race almost goes extinct due to confusion blinding rage of people who accused them of murder, causing them to regret their mistake for year and leave the remains of said race(and those who consider them family) hate them with a passion. It takes allies with other nations to gain the power to fight Daein and King Ashnard, who are the main sources of all the events transpiring going on! 

I may not make as complicated as it is, but there is a lot of things going on, but it isn't all shoved down your throat at one time. While the main goal is restore Crimea, there are many more things going on in the background that connect to the issue at hand! And its give to you at a pace that allows you to take it all in and process it all!

 

Now Ashnard might not be the best Villain in the series, he still does a good job a being a villain(but I question his reasons for doing certain things like starting the war because it didn't seem to all the way clear...well, other then the fact he, and most of Daein, really hates Laguz. So honestly, Daein were probably eager to destory the nation that has connections with the so called...ahem... "subhumans"). Although the Black Knight is honestly more intimidating then he is(seeing how strong he is and that he randomly checks on Ike and Army sometimes...).

 

Ok, I might have missed some things, but I'm pretty sure someone else said it instead and honestly, I probably could've explained better. Hopefully what I said actually makes sense and doesn't make me come off as someone blind to the issues the story has(which, while not many, are still there). Also, if I kept going on, I would've eventually went in the gameplay and that isn't the point of this thread(that and I took a LOOONG time to write this and made sure it was at least decent and organized, and now my brain is kinda tired...) 

While not the "Holy Greil" of storytelling, it's my favorite game in the series and I love it so much(as I do RD. Maybe not as much, but I love both greatly...and will probably gush about them to death! Not everyone will see it as I do, but hey, that's just my opinion and theirs)! 

Edited January 18, 2017 by Busterman64

[General Banzai]

Back in the day I extolled PoR for best FE story, and in a lot of ways it delivers where other installments in the series fall flat. It does a great job of characterizing the entire cast, especially a larger collection of major characters than FE usually can handle. In addition, the chapter-to-chapter scenarios often revolve around significant tactical and moral decisions Ike has to make, bringing a lot of weight to the player's actions and integrating the story into the gameplay in a way reminiscent of, and superior to, Thracia 776. Individual minor characters like Jill receive character arcs that tie into the story itself and in general you get a lot more going on than other FE games, as well as a lot more done competently.

Where does it fall apart? Anticlimax, anticlimax, anticlimax.

Now I regard FESS as the best story in the series. It's simpler and leaner, so it lacks a lot of the more interesting frills PoR adds to its story, but it delivers on the fundamentals in a similar way as PoR and even manages a complex cast of side characters (the way Seth acts around Ephraim, compared to how he acts around Eirika, is a spectacular and often-overlooked detail that shapes the way each route plays out from a narrative standpoint). The story is great at fashioning a darker, more somber tone than most of the series, giving the game an almost Gothic vibe. It has, unquestionably, the best cast of villains in the series, and I think even the game's detractors would be hard-pressed to contest that claim. And, unlike PoR, it hits the right notes at the end and resolves the tension in an actual climax. FESS in general is an exceptionally polished game, with few missteps or extravagances, and the story is part of that package. Additionally, FESS and PoR basically have the same caliber of (English) writing, localized at about the same time by about the same people, so from a mere technical standpoint it's a swell read.

Edited January 18, 2017 by General Banzai

[Jotari]

10 minutes ago, General Banzai said:

Back in the day I extolled PoR for best FE story, and in a lot of ways it delivers where other installments in the series fall flat. It does a great job of characterizing the entire cast, especially a larger collection of major characters than FE usually can handle. In addition, the chapter-to-chapter scenarios often revolve around significant tactical and moral decisions Ike has to make, bringing a lot of weight to the player's actions and integrating the story into the gameplay in a way reminiscent of, and superior to, Thracia 776. Individual minor characters like Jill receive character arcs that tie into the story itself and in general you get a lot more going on than other FE games, as well as a lot more done competently.

Where does it fall apart? Anticlimax, anticlimax, anticlimax.

Now I regard FESS as the best story in the series. It's simpler and leaner, so it lacks a lot of the more interesting frills PoR adds to its story, but it delivers on the fundamentals in a similar way as PoR and even manages a complex cast of side characters (the way Seth acts around Ephraim, compared to how he acts around Eirika, is a spectacular and often-overlooked detail that shapes the way each route plays out from a narrative standpoint). The story is great at fashioning a darker, more somber tone than most of the series, giving the game an almost Gothic vibe. It has, unquestionably, the best cast of villains in the series, and I think even the game's detractors would be hard-pressed to contest that claim. And, unlike PoR, it hits the right notes at the end and resolves the tension in an actual climax. FESS in general is an exceptionally polished game, with few missteps or extravagances, and the story is part of that package. Additionally, FESS and PoR basically have the same caliber of (English) writing, localized at about the same time by about the same people, so from a mere technical standpoint it's a swell read.

I (not a detractor of the game) contest this claim. Valter just seemed like a less fun worse dressed version of Narshen, Riev managed to be amazingly forgettable, the villains in Erikia's route were basically filler, Selena was just a typical Camus with the woobie factor maxed out (not a trait I think gells altogether well with  the archetype), Orson was interesting in theory and not terribly executed but still failed to leave any significant impression by only appearing in three chapters (with a very large gap in between), Vigarde is practically non existent which makes him worse than even Garon in my eyes, Fomortiis was more generic than Manfroy and Lyon, the highly praised crowning jewel of the game, while interesting and well written, felt incredibly rushed to me by appearing only in the last few chapters of the game. The only villain that I think absolutely nailed it in Sacred Stones was Caellach who in my eyes basically carried the bad guys team with how successful he was at smashing rocks. All with a strangely optimistic personality for a ruthless killer. 

Edited January 18, 2017 by Jotari