Disney entering another Golden Age?

[Rezzy]

Disney's sequels are hit-and-miss for me. Some are excellent (Lion King II, Lady and the Tramp II, Aladdin sequels), while some are just plain bad (Inspector Gadget 2, Pocahontas II (there is one good thing in this one and that's John Smith being a total badass, but it still sucks besides), Cinderella II (would've liked it more if it had just been Jaq and/or Anastasia's parts in one big story...)).

That being said, they have their work cut out for them in living up to Frozen's success. Hopefully they can do a repeat of the Aladdin trilogy which I still think is the best Disney trilogy to date.

I liked Return of Jaffar, I think I've only seen Aladdin 3 once, so I don't really remember my opinion on it.

I think a lot of the problem is most of the Disney movies are already based on existing stories, so it's hard to know where to go after Happily Ever After.

[Punished Dayni]

Okay, so two things on Main Disney (i.e. what they consider part of their "canon") and sequels. (This won't be bringing up the sequels often done by DisneyToon or whoever else (so excluding stuff like all those Disney sequels from the 90's), or Pixar and their sequel record)

1. Disney have several sequels they have done themselves: Rescuers Down Under, Winnie the Pooh (from 2011, which got not nearly the marketing Tangled got) and arguably Fantasia 2000. Now, opinions on these vary (I myself admit to seeing none of them, though I am making the effort to eventually)

2. The company itself has shifted over time, and especially in a period where John Lassetter has been the CCO, many things have changed withing their animation department. Mostly for the better IMO (I mean, which can you consider bad overall out of the films since PatF?) (Though I miss 2D films from them as well, at least others exist who still make great 2D films (Like Cartoon Saloon, just look at their cinematic work)), and they have opened up to the idea of making sequels themselves nowadays (unlike in the 90's, where they delegated it to DisneyToon): for example, Wreck-It Ralph 2 is also a thing that's been announced.

I could make a point on my thoughts on the DisneyToon sequels, but I have mostly avoided those and only seen the Lion King and Aladdin sequels. And the only one I could talk about and remember as I've seen it in the last 10-15 years is Lion King 1 & 1/2. Which I liked the premise of, but it has its flaws.

[maybe]

I liked Return of Jaffar, I think I've only seen Aladdin 3 once, so I don't really remember my opinion on it.

I think a lot of the problem is most of the Disney movies are already based on existing stories, so it's hard to know where to go after Happily Ever After.

another problem is that most of the sequels are done by what's pretty much their B team

the animation is never as good as the first which is always pretty disappointing since the animation is what makes a lot of disney movies great

1. Disney have several sequels they have done themselves: Rescuers Down Under, Winnie the Pooh (from 2011, which got not nearly the marketing Tangled got) and arguably Fantasia 2000. Now, opinions on these vary (I myself admit to seeing none of them, though I am making the effort to eventually)

I REMEMBER SEEING AN AD FOR THAT WINNIE THE POOH IT CAME OUT ON THE SAME DAY AS THE LAST HARRY POTTER AND THERE WAS AN AD FOR IT WHERE THEY USED THE HARRY POTTER FONT AND IT WAS HILARIOUS AND AMAZING

that being said that was probably the biggest reason it wasn't very successful rather than the lack of marketing

it came out on the same day as harry potter, which is basically a death sentence

[Punished Dayni]

I REMEMBER SEEING AN AD FOR THAT WINNIE THE POOH IT CAME OUT ON THE SAME DAY AS THE LAST HARRY POTTER AND THERE WAS AN AD FOR IT WHERE THEY USED THE HARRY POTTER FONT AND IT WAS HILARIOUS AND AMAZING

that being said that was probably the biggest reason it wasn't very successful rather than the lack of marketing

it came out on the same day as harry potter, which is basically a death sentence

I clearly forgot that. :P

The marketing was still not to Tangled's level, but the fact I forgot it came out round the same time at Deathly Hollows Pt. 2 says a lot about how screwed it was.Also, How did they get away with the font?

[Anacybele]

I liked Return of Jaffar, I think I've only seen Aladdin 3 once, so I don't really remember my opinion on it.

I have an interesting history with Aladdin and the King of Thieves (that's the third movie). For the longest time, I'd only ever seen it once and had a vague memory of it. Yet the one time I had seen it, I was a sick four year old child in a hospital bed trying to stay awake for the whole movie. I think I managed to see most of it before falling asleep, but I'm not sure. All I remember is the IV in my arm making me so drowsy after awhile (IVs can do that. I should know, I've had it happen both times I've needed an IV) and the movie being enjoyable. The hospital had a copy of the movie and let me watch it.

I didn't see it again for years after that, but I did finally manage to at some point. I don't remember how, strangely, but I know I did, because I have a better memory of it now. It was really good and finally shed light on Aladdin's parents after his mother was cut from the first movie. I still rather wish his mom had made it into the first anyway though. I get that she was removed to keep the movie from being too long, but still...

[Refa]

Sick clickbait title, bro.

There is no brick wall that Disney needs to overcome because the movies that they make can be good in different ways.

[Moonstone]

I don't think Disney is re-entering a Golden Era. They've had great movies for decades.

[Rezzy]

I don't think Disney is re-entering a Golden Era. They've had great movies for decades.

They've gone in cycles. The late 90's were a drop in quality from the true Renaissance, and the early 2000's weren't that great.

[Ebony]

They've been in a "golden age" for a while. The only movie I've seen of recent that I didn't like was Frozen. Zootopia and Big Hero 6 are probably some of the best movies I've seen come out of Disney.

[Tetragrammaton]

With big hits as Frozen, Big Hero 6, and Zootopia, it's hard to not notice the recent spike in Disney movie popularity. Pixar, also, struck big with Inside Out as being a cult classic among fans. However, how long is this streak going to last? If it doesn't last, why? Let's discuss!

My personal opinion states that Disney eventually will hit a brick wall with their expectations for their movies getting higher and higher after each hit. Moana, personally, didn't strike me as much as Zootopia did, and they both came out in 2016. I actually have lower expectations for Frozen 2, which is indeed confirmed, since it will never live up to the original, no matter how hard they try. But, they could surprise the public.

I think you forgot all about the new Star Wars? And the Marvel's hero movies?

They're all part of Disney now.

[Fire Emblem Fan]

On the topic of Disney sequels, I've honestly disliked almost all of them. The only ones I can think of that I've actually thought were at least pretty decent were Rescuers Down Under, Lion King II, and Aladdin 3. Otherwise...eh, I didn't really enjoy any of the others.

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

Mulan II was quite decent too I have to admit.

Anyways, as for me the 90s were Disney's golden Golden Era and nothing will change for me.

I'm not really into the animated movies of today.

Sure, a few newer Disney movies like Zootopia are still cool, but I miss the nostalgic feeling I had with Lion King, Beauty and the Beast, Pocahontas, Mulan...

Same goes for the cartoon series btw.

The late 80s / early 90s were the best time (DuckTales, Rescue Rangers, Darkwing Duck...)

[Life]

Eh... short answer would be "No".

Long answer goes like this and I'm tying this back to an incredible lecture that I heard by Dr. Jordan Peterson at UofT.

There is a reason why over 25 years later, films like The Lion King, Pinocchio and Sleeping Beauty are still part of our daily lexicon. It's because they told the story right (similar to why Harry Potter worked so well too and you can see parallels between HP and SB, especially in Book 2).

Take The Lion King as an example. It is strikingly similar to the Egyptian myth of soveriegnty between Osiris, Horus and Set. Osiris (Mufasa) is the old and once great king who is now willfully blind. His evil brother Set (Scar) plots behind his back and ends up killing his brother in order to take over the kingdom. Horus (Simba) is Osiris's son and after growing up, returns back home to fight Set and eventually beats him. Osiris is then enshrined as the king of the Underworld or in Mufasa's case, immortalized in the stars.

Striking parallels, eh? It's more because it's a retelling of old myths. Same idea with Sleeping Beauty (fighting the dragon of chaos to restore order and rescue the virgin). By the way, the connection between Sleeping Beauty and Harry Potter 2? The hero (Harry Potter) goes underneath the castle to fight the dragon (the basilisk) and rescue the virgin (Virginia Weasley). It's also the story of St. George and the Dragon. Or Pinocchio (this one I'll link underneath with a video by Dr. Peterson since his explanation of it is mind-blowing).

Now back to the topic on hand. Is Disney experiencing a new Golden Age? Not if they have to create their own archetypes. Frozen worked because that is another one from ancient times if I'm not mistaken (first thought would probably link it to Norse mythology in some way). But Big Hero 6? Zootopia? Wreck-It Ralph? Hell, even The Princess And The Frog? History will forget those ones sooner than you think. But the three I mentioned? We haven't forgotten them for millennia; hard to believe that they will just die off.

Watch this all the way through. Dr. Peterson teaches a course called Maps of Meaning and puts his lectures online. Absolutely fascinating.

Edited January 12, 2017 by Pepe The Conquerer

[Moonstone]

Thanks for your very detailed explanation Pepe.

To Rezzy, the reason why I don't think Disney is re-entering a Golden Age is because I think it's a very short sighted idea. Disney has been around making movies for more than 80 years. Some movies have stuck as classics and some have fallen to the wayside for the entire length of the company's existance. If we're only looking at a recent dip, and by recent I mean the past 20 years, and a very recent incline, the narrow time frame really doesn't paint the whole picture.

So, again, no I don't think Disney is re-entering a Golden Age. It might be a bit more popular the past ~5 years but when you look at the company as a whole it really isn't unusual and Disney was never very unpopular even in the late 90s early 2000s. In addition, just because some recent movies are very popular right now, like Pepe said, many will not stand the test of time.

[Tactician Robin]

I think you forgot all about the new Star Wars? And the Marvel's hero movies?

They're all part of Disney now.

I was just throwing a few examples out there, but yes Marvel and Star Wars do count as well. Probably should of mentioned those, my bad.

[Fire Emblem Fan]

But Big Hero 6? Zootopia? Wreck-It Ralph? Hell, even The Princess And The Frog? History will forget those ones sooner than you think.

I don't think you're giving those movies their due credit...

[Life]

I don't think you're giving those movies their due credit...

I will bet anything that those movies are forgotten entirely within 10 years, if not sooner.

By contrast, The Lion King is 25 years old and the underlying story behind it is over 2000 years old.

This doesn't mean that they're not good movies. But they don't match up to myths that are retold over many years by different cultures.

It's archetypes like the "once great king" or "the redemptive hero who slays the dragon" that will survive because that is part of our culture.

Another example I like to use that is similar to Sleeping Beauty is a video game like Farcry 3. Same concepts, especially when you consider all the Alice in Wonderland allegories (which work back into central concepts of order vs. chaos). Our culture is influenced by the past and religious ideas more than people want to admit.

Edited January 12, 2017 by Pepe The Conquerer

[Tactician Robin]

I just want to remind everyone to keep it civil and respect everyone's opinion.

I think the Princess and the Frog has the best chance in terms of survival due to the original story being around a lot longer. The other movies, as much as I enjoy them now, can be dated in about 10 years.

Zootopia might stick around as it deals with a huge problem of racial issues. People might want to show their kids the movie to teach them at a young age to accept everyone.

[Life]

I just want to remind everyone to keep it civil and respect everyone's opinion.

I think the Princess and the Frog has the best chance in terms of survival due to the original story being around a lot longer. The other movies, as much as I enjoy them now, can be dated in about 10 years.

Zootopia might stick around as it deals with a huge problem of racial issues. People might want to show their kids the movie to teach them at a young age to accept everyone.

I disagree entirely on both. But to have that conversation, we'd need to move it into Serious Discussion and I'd probably get called a racist at some point which would defeat the entire purpose of the discussion.

[Fire Emblem Fan]

I will bet anything that those movies are forgotten entirely within 10 years, if not sooner.

By contrast, The Lion King is 25 years old and the underlying story behind it is over 2000 years old.

This doesn't mean that they're not good movies. But they don't match up to myths that are retold over many years by different cultures.

It's archetypes like the "once great king" or "the redemptive hero who slays the dragon" that will survive because that is part of our culture.

Another example I like to use that is similar to Sleeping Beauty is a video game like Farcry 3. Same concepts, especially when you consider all the Alice in Wonderland allegories (which work back into central concepts of order vs. chaos). Our culture is influenced by the past and religious ideas more than people want to admit.

I disagree. There is no denying that old tales and myths have influence, but there's no way to say whether or not Zootopia (I say that one specifically because things like Frozen and Big Hero 6 are already based on other stories) won't be another new story that lasts. All stories start somewhere, right? Do you think the creator of Sherlock Holmes thought it was going to be so successful and last for so long when it was created? I doubt it. On top of that, there's plenty of examples in film history where the telling of an old, beloved tale just simply falls flat on its face and doesn't make it. Staying purely within the realm of Disney, look at the Great Mouse Detective and the Hunchback of Notre Dame. One is based on the aforementioned Sherlock Holmes, but is it considered one of Disney's all-time best? Not really, no. It's still considered good of course, but it isn't talked about or remembered as fondly. The same can be said of Hunchback, it's based on what's considered a classic story, but is it still remembered and talked about as one of Disney's all-time best? Again, no not really. In contrast to that, look at 101 Dalmatians, that movie came out in 1961 and was based on a 1956 novel. I'm sorry, but five years is not nearly enough time for that story to have been considered an old classic! Yet look at the film, it is consistently considered one of Disney's all-time best, outdoing Mouse Detective and Hunchback.

Now, looking at the facts in just the film industry as a whole, you cannot deny that Zootopia has been wildly successful. It grossed over one billion dollars worldwide and was the 3rd highest-grossing movie of 2016, and it's become the 25th highest-grossing movie of all time. And it isn't just kids liking it, it's adults too! It has been consistently praised by critics and film viewers alike, it was chosen by the American Film Institute as one of the top ten films of 2016, and it's already started winning awards, including the Golden Globe for Best Animated Feature Film the Critic's Choice for Best Animated Feature! There's a whole list of other awards it has both won and been nominated for you can look up. People like this film. They really, really like it, it's not going away and it's not being forgotten. And going back into the realm of purely Disney...again, people really like this film. The only Disney films that have been talked about as much as Zootopia in the last ten years are Frozen and maybe Princess and the Frog. It's going down as one of Disney's best all-time films, it's not going away and it's not being forgotten. And then look at Princess and the Frog, that film came out in 2009 and people are still talking about it! Wreck-It Ralph? Big Hero 6? Okay, yeah, I can see them going the way of Mouse Detective. But Zootopia? The Princess and the Frog? Frozen? No way.

[solrocknroll]

I disagree entirely on both. But to have that conversation, we'd need to move it into Serious Discussion and I'd probably get called a racist at some point which would defeat the entire purpose of the discussion.

This post has some pretty terrible undertones. You're singling out Princess and the Frog, rather than the other movies, and for what reason? The same reasons you gave for Frozen apply, except... You then bring up racism. Now why would you bring up racism if you didn't intend to bring race into the issue? Stop being pathetically passive aggressive.

Also, if you're afraid of being called out for being racist, you're probably a racist. Princess and the Frog is a timeless movie that will live on, especially since it's about one of the greatest time periods in one of the greatest cities in the world.

[Life]

I disagree. There is no denying that old tales and myths have influence, but there's no way to say whether or not Zootopia (I say that one specifically because things like Frozen and Big Hero 6 are already based on other stories) won't be another new story that lasts. All stories start somewhere, right? Do you think the creator of Sherlock Holmes thought it was going to be so successful and last for so long when it was created? I doubt it. On top of that, there's plenty of examples in film history where the telling of an old, beloved tale just simply falls flat on its face and doesn't make it. Staying purely within the realm of Disney, look at the Great Mouse Detective and the Hunchback of Notre Dame. One is based on the aforementioned Sherlock Holmes, but is it considered one of Disney's all-time best? Not really, no. It's still considered good of course, but it isn't talked about or remembered as fondly. The same can be said of Hunchback, it's based on what's considered a classic story, but is it still remembered and talked about as one of Disney's all-time best? Again, no not really. In contrast to that, look at 101 Dalmatians, that movie came out in 1961 and was based on a 1956 novel. I'm sorry, but five years is not nearly enough time for that story to have been considered an old classic! Yet look at the film, it is consistently considered one of Disney's all-time best, outdoing Mouse Detective and Hunchback.

Now, looking at the facts in just the film industry as a whole, you cannot deny that Zootopia has been wildly successful. It grossed over one billion dollars worldwide and was the 3rd highest-grossing movie of 2016, and it's become the 25th highest-grossing movie of all time. And it isn't just kids liking it, it's adults too! It has been consistently praised by critics and film viewers alike, it was chosen by the American Film Institute as one of the top ten films of 2016, and it's already started winning awards, including the Golden Globe for Best Animated Feature Film the Critic's Choice for Best Animated Feature! There's a whole list of other awards it has both won and been nominated for you can look up. People like this film. They really, really like it, it's not going away and it's not being forgotten. And going back into the realm of purely Disney...again, people really like this film. The only Disney films that have been talked about as much as Zootopia in the last ten years are Frozen and maybe Princess and the Frog. It's going down as one of Disney's best all-time films, it's not going away and it's not being forgotten. And then look at Princess and the Frog, that film came out in 2009 and people are still talking about it! Wreck-It Ralph? Big Hero 6? Okay, yeah, I can see them going the way of Mouse Detective. But Zootopia? The Princess and the Frog? Frozen? No way.

It seems like you're completely missing the point.

​It's about the archetypes that echo within human history. As I stated "the once great dying king" is one. Another one is "the great mother of Chaos". These stories have existed since the creation of writing.

I find it disingenuous that you compare that to movies that are less than a generation old and say "no, it's about how successful the movie was at the time". That's not how it works. You can't just make up a story and expect it to resonate for thousands of years.

Let me give you a reason why Zootopia won't survive a generation. Humans are tribal creatures. We understand this from both history and the fact that chimps (our closest biological match) are very tribal. The concept of "accepting people for who they are no matter what" is a very recent idea (we're talking 20th century) and I don't think it will stand the test of time because certain cultures will always seem barbaric to other cultures. Western culture is barbaric in Islamist eyes and vice versa as an example (trust me, I can give you hundreds that exist right now). But as opposed to taking the Shaka Zulu route of just killing off that opposing tribe down to the last child, we have entered a new period where we try to accept people for who they are.

The problem here is that Zootopia is not creating an archetype that resonates through human history. It does the opposite, in fact. It attempts to debunk the tribal notion of humans which is flat out contradictory to human nature and history. It preaches for an ideal society rather than an internal understanding of yourself.

Watch the video I linked in my first post. It's very interesting and it might answer some of your questions.

Frey, I'm just ignoring you.

Edited January 13, 2017 by Pepe The Conquerer

[Fire Emblem Fan]

It seems like you're completely missing the point.

I didn't miss any damn point and understood it fine, I just think you're 100% wrong. I'm sorry to inform you, but you CAN make up a story and have it resonate for thousands of years, that's EXACTLY how it works. Like I said, do you think Sir Arthur Doyle expected Sherlock Holmes to last for over a hundred years when he first introduced the character in 1887? No, no he did not. But it happened. Not one single person who has ever told a story has expected it to last for fifty or a hundred or a thousands years, yet it happened. That's EXACTLY how it works.

It's the same damn thing with Disney. Disney is a company that is simply going to last, for generations. Many of their films (like the Lion King, and Aladdin, and Beauty of the Beast) are plain and simply going to last. They have appeal. People like them. Parents will share them with their kids, who will share them with their kids, and so on and so forth. Zootopia, Princess and the Frog, and Frozen are going to join those movies. They're going to last, for generations. That's it. That's that. You're already pretty much wrong about Princess and the Frog not lasting for ten years. Like I said, it came out in 2009 and it's already 2017, it's almost been a whole ten years and it's still being talked about!

Films are a form of storytelling and they WILL create their own archetypes. They WILL tell new stories. And hey guess what? Some of these stories are going to last! That's it, that's that. To argue that is just plain silly. How successful a film is helps it last, it isn't disingenuous to compare the success it had when it first came out to movies that are less than a generation old. If people like it then it lasts. That's literally how EVERYTHING works. In film, in literature, in food...that's how every single thing works. In addition to that, when people look back at the 20th/21st century, they're going to see the ideology of accepting everyone for who they are, and when they look back at the films of the 20th/21st century they're going to see films like Zootopia as a symbol of that ideology, and they're going to be remembered.

And then there's film preservation. Only the best of the best are selected for preservation. And like I said, Zootopia was named by the American Film Institute as one of the top ten films of 2016. When they look back on 2016 and select films to preserve, Zootopia WILL be one of them. It's going to be preserved and it's going to last. That's exactly how storytelling works, that's exactly how creating an archetype works, and that's exactly how the film industry works.

[Life]

You still don't get my point because you didn't actually respond to the idea that these are stories that are retold over thousands of years rather than a few thousand days. The closest you came to even contesting that point was Sherlock Holmes and that's barely a hundred years old. Compare it to St. George and the Dragon (nearly 900 years). But whatever.

​I will say this, though. Thanks for admitting that not being tribalistic is an ideology.

[The Geek]

I'm gonna back up Fire Emblem Fan here.

What about Disney movies like Bambi and Dumbo? Those stories aren't based on any outside source material (at least as far as I know) but are still fondly remembered. They were stories with animals that have morals to teach (Bambi dealing with coming of age and accepting loss and Dumbo dealing with accepting otherness). Zootopia is in the same vein: a moral story being taught through the animal kingdom. A modern day fable as it were.