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should FE go Mainstream or stay Niche?


IainfeelsSicK
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  1. 1. Should FE go Mainstream or stay Niche

    • Mainstream
      18
    • Niche
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Good fucking lord, are you being serious right now? Do you want to know what the real cringe is here? You generalizing a huge portion of the fan base and judging them based on how they play the game.

Is the direction the series is heading in now perfect? No?

Were the older titles perfect? No.

Is the series being mainstream a guarantee that the games will be worse in quality? No.

I suggest you put on your big boy pants and write more constructive posts rather than trying to vaguely tell other people how to enjoy something.

The point of this topic was for me to get this off my chest and hear different feedback and opinions. So i accept and respect your opposite opinion

Edited by IainfeelsSicK
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To play the Devil's Advocate, being mainstream has its downsides, such as:

-causing the series to be more formulaic and less risky mechanically (Kaga's games may have had some weird choices, but at least he tried many new things).

-insistence on keeping fanservicey features like marriage and children simply because they were popular, even if they are shoehorned in.

-more melodramatic storylines focused on a few characters rather than proper political conflict because mainstream audiences dislike political stuff.

-more features along the lines of face-rubbing (i.e. more things appealing to otaku).

-even tropier (is that a word?) characters.

-more frequent releases leading to less development time.

I could probably list more, but that is all that comes to mind as of now.

Edit: I believe eccentric means more niche with crazy ideas.

I second this to be honest. While I'm not opposed to Fire Emblem being too mainstream, I hope that it doesn't lose sight of its identity in the process. So far things have been mostly ok, though hints of the above have seeped in (namely the fanservicey elements). Its too early to worry now, though, but Nintendo is pretty hardball with game quality so I'm not worried about something like say, annualized Fire Emblem, lol.

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have nothing against fe being mainstream and i dislike that whole attitude that things are better obscure and indie or whatever. having said that though, awakening and fates do make a lot of aesthetic choices that i really don't like. i want to think the series could have been just as successful without those elements.

Edited by Radiant head
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With the recent Switch presentation we were graced with Fire Emblem Warriors... tbh I'm not too excited and call me a hipster but I really enjoy Fire Emblem being Niche. But I'm genuinely curious what the community thinks of the change. (You can call me late if you want I know this started with Awakening)

Why would you not want a game to become mainstream? That's like asking: "would you rather not make straight A's in school?" "Would you rather make 20k instead of 90k?"

Like... What?

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The point of this topic was for me to get this off my chest and hear different feedback and opinions. So i accept and respect your opposite opinion

Me thinking you're generalizing far too many people based on the limited few fans you've met is not an opinion. It's an exercise in futility and only serves to divide the new and the old fanbase further and contribute to the already negative reputation the Fire Emblem community has.

If you want to critique the games, then by all means, that's what the forum is here for, but why direct your misguided frustration at random people?

-causing the series to be more formulaic and less risky mechanically (Kaga's games may have had some weird choices, but at least he tried many new things).

Kaga left after Thracia 776, and ever since I believe the Fire Emblem series has been relatively formulaic. Sure, new elements are added and removed, but we're not talking about massive shifts here. Hell, if anything, Fates experimented the most gameplay-wise in a long time.

-insistence on keeping fanservicey features like marriage and children simply because they were popular, even if they are shoehorned in.

That's a popularity thing, not a mainstream one. If Fire Emblem had remained fairly obscure yet the loyal fanbase loved this aspect of the game, it would still be there.

-more melodramatic storylines focused on a few characters rather than proper political conflict because mainstream audiences dislike political stuff.

Where's your source on this? Also, aside from the Tellius series, the Fire Emblem games have had very simple and straightforward plots with very little actual politicking in them. The writing has also never been stellar.

-more features along the lines of face-rubbing (i.e. more things appealing to otaku).

I believe two things are at play here: the current industry, in which this sort of thing is encouraged and not unique to mainstream things at all, and the technology which makes this possible.

Judging by the failure of TMS in terms of sales, I'd say it turns out that big tits and big names aren't guarantees that a game will sell well.

-even tropier (is that a word?) characters.

How is this a correlation? People tend to like characters which are more developed. If characters rely more on tropes now then it's more than likely because of the current support system, not the series being mainstream.

Also, don't forget characters like Ilyana.

-more frequent releases leading to less development time.

Binding Blade was released in 2002, Blazing Sword in 2003 and Sacred Stones in 2004. Meanwhile, Awakening was released in 2012 and Fates in 2015.

Edited by Thane
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Me thinking you're generalizing far too many people based on the limited few fans you've met is not an opinion. It's an exercise in futility and only serves to divide the new and the old fanbase further and contribute to the already negative reputation the Fire Emblem community has.

If you want to critique the games, then by all means, that's what the forum is here for, but why direct your misguided frustration at random people

I am a pessimist... I see the worst. That's where the over extensive generalizing and unwarranted frustration comes from. I can't help that, but you are right critiquing the games is way more worth getting angry at an audience.

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I am a pessimist... I see the worst. That's where the over extensive generalizing and unwarranted frustration comes from. I can't help that, but you are right critiquing the games is way more worth getting angry at an audience.

That is no excuse for your childish behavior. A lot of people here are pessimists; hell, I'm slightly infamous on this site for harping about Fates' horrible writing to the point where I'm no longer beating a dead horse but mashing it into a paste. However, the difference is that I'm directing everything towards the game and the writing, not the people playing it, which is what you're doing here.

When writing something like this, you come across as an entitled child who is upset that people aren't playing with their toys in the same way you are which causes you to throw a tantrum.

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Like others here, I don't have a problem with the game being mainstream. More players = more money for IS which means the games I like have a better budget. What I don't like is the cost of getting the series mainstream. Props to IS for thinking about the "classic" Fire Emblem experience when designing Conquest but with Awakening and now Fates, the writing of the game is becoming increasingly hollow and that is concerning.

Edited by NekoKnight
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That is no excuse for your childish behavior. A lot of people here are pessimists; hell, I'm slightly infamous on this site for harping about Fates' horrible writing to the point where I'm no longer beating a dead horse but mashing it into a paste. However, the difference is that I'm directing everything towards the game and the writing, not the people playing it, which is what you're doing here.

When writing something like this, you come across as an entitled child who is upset that people aren't playing with their toys in the same way you are which causes you to throw a tantrum.

I wasn't making an excuse. I already stated this but I wanted to get these feeling off my chest and because where I live no one agrees with me I had an bias mentality going in I also posted that 2 hours ago and i have rationalized the rant. Now that it's off my chest I admit and have implied several times now that attacking an audience is silly and pointless; I won't be doing it anymore and I even wanted to move on to discussing the games. However you arrogantly persist me like you don't understand concepts. Unless all you are looking for are ways to exploit my every word and flaw because you are THAT triggered and want to upset me in every possible aspect, I'd suggest you take a clue and move on like I did like 5 posts ago.

Edited by IainfeelsSicK
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I wasn't making an excuse. I already stated this but I wanted to get these feeling off my chest and because where I live no one agrees with me I had an bias mentality going in I also posted that 2 hours ago and i have rationalized the rant. Now that it's off my chest I admit and have implied several times now that attacking an audience is silly and pointless; I won't be doing it anymore and I even wanted to move on to discussing the games. However you arrogantly persist me like you don't understand concepts. Unless all you are looking for are ways to exploit my every word and flaw because you are THAT triggered and want to upset me in every possible aspect, I'd suggest you take a clue and move on like I did like 5 posts ago.

unless you really just enjoy arguing with people. If that's the case then honestly i excuse it

Edited by IainfeelsSicK
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Also let's be real here, more budget will (if not horribly mismanaged) lead to better quality.

That's a big if. Since they got a well-known writer, presumably Fates had the biggest writing budget out of any games.

Fire Emblem isn't a series that gets much benefit from state-of-the-art graphics, either.

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I wasn't making an excuse. I already stated this but I wanted to get these feeling off my chest and because where I live no one agrees with me I had an bias mentality going in I also posted that 2 hours ago and i have rationalized the rant. Now that it's off my chest I admit and have implied several times now that attacking an audience is silly and pointless; I won't be doing it anymore and I even wanted to move on to discussing the games. However you arrogantly persist me like you don't understand concepts. Unless all you are looking for are ways to exploit my every word and flaw because you are THAT triggered and want to upset me in every possible aspect, I'd suggest you take a clue and move on like I did like 5 posts ago.

You're free to have an opinion. You're NOT free to have others agree with that opinion. I heavily disagree with your stance and rant, and think that you're overreacting. Change is inevitable - you can either find something you like, or go with the fact that FE is constantly evolving. Hell, compare FE3 and FE4 - completely different mechanics and story, yet they're both classic Fire Emblem games.

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I do think that we're kind of fretting over this matter. Just think about it - Tales series, Suikoden, etc they all have their high points before returning to a relatively stable (if not quiet) ground, with a loyal following and a small, but stable amount of new fans for each new game. In my opinion, it will be the same with FE. Heck, even Final Fantasy is so in Japan.

If you're talking about the relevancy of Fire Emblem, however, it would be a different topic altogether... I just hope Fire Emblem will never become something like Langrisser. The new 3DS game was simply unsatisfiable to me.

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EDIT Also I don't think FE becoming mainstream is an issue in and of itself. I have a lot of issues with the franchise's direction but I don't think that trying to appeal to more people is a bad thing. Honestly, at the time, FE6 was made with the express intent of drawing more people into the franchise, and people liked that well enough.

Idle speculation that also follows basic logic.

They were told it would be the last in the series, it smashed its sales target, and the series continued. Gee, I wonder what must have caused Nintendo to change their minds?

Again, previous FE games smashed that sales target. There's nothing to suggest that simply selling more than FE9/FE10 would have been enough.

Edited by Refa
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Again, previous FE games smashed that sales target. There's nothing to suggest that simply selling more than FE9/FE10 would have been enough.

What's clear is that Nintendo had lost faith in the series and was planning on cancelling it. Awakening sold really well, and the series continued.

There's a lot of stuff and background details that we don't know, but what we do know flows simply and logically.

You're free to dislike Awakening (heck, it's definitely towards the bottom of my list), but trying to undermine it's success with vague arguments feels like a bit much.

Edited by The DanMan
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No, no OP, Im eccentric. FE is just low key.

Anyway, id rather it get larger of a franchise in the eyes of the company and the audiences. That means more FE would be made and the series would continue. i want them to keep trying new shit with it. Let it be a big deal, i say. It looks like this is finally happening. New games, spinoffs, merch. Bring it on, i say.

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I think that there is a valid concern in how much of Fire Emblem's identity it will sacrifice in order to appeal to a broader array of people, but I feel that, so long as it retains its identity and uniqueness, I'd actually love for it to be fairly popular.

I mean, I hope it's able to crawl out of Fanservice Purgatory and get at least classic FE-tier writing back (even better would be lovely but I'm not holding my breath), but providing both of those things happen, I am 100% cool with Fire Emblem being a more popular series.

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Kaga left after Thracia 776, and ever since I believe the Fire Emblem series has been relatively formulaic. Sure, new elements are added and removed, but we're not talking about massive shifts here. Hell, if anything, Fates experimented the most gameplay-wise in a long time.

I am well aware of the fact that he left after Thracia 776; I just mentioned him because he always has interesting ideas and the Saga games seem really fascinating. I am also pretty mixed on the changes in Fates with Revelation being a chore (I really dislike dragon veins).

That's a popularity thing, not a mainstream one. If Fire Emblem had remained fairly obscure yet the loyal fanbase loved this aspect of the game, it would still be there.

I would think that the fanbase would be okay without the marriage-and-children stuff if everything else was spectacular.

Where's your source on this? Also, aside from the Tellius series, the Fire Emblem games have had very simple and straightforward plots with very little actual politicking in them. The writing has also never been stellar.

This fear is based on... [serenes' Law has been violated]. I agree that the plots have always been bad, but they were mostly inoffensive in previous games.

I believe two things are at play here: the current industry, in which this sort of thing is encouraged and not unique to mainstream things at all, and the technology which makes this possible.

Judging by the failure of TMS in terms of sales, I'd say it turns out that big tits and big names aren't guarantees that a game will sell well.

TMS was released on a horribly unsuccessful console and was censored in international versions, which is not good for a game with only Japanese voice acting (not having English voice acting also hurt it as most people want stuff like that). The game would have done fairly well if they took out all of the Fire Emblem stuff and put the game on the PS4. I also mention otaku as they make up a significant portion of the Japanese customer base and are willing to shell out lots of money for nerdy stuff (they are the reason companies make money off of those overpriced PVC figurines).

How is this a correlation? People tend to like characters which are more developed. If characters rely more on tropes now then it's more than likely because of the current support system, not the series being mainstream.

Also, don't forget characters like Ilyana.

Characters in the previous games are mostly pretty flat, but they feel more authentic as most people are nice and pretty boring in real life. The flatness of the characters meant the tropes and gimmicks were not as overbearing.

Binding Blade was released in 2002, Blazing Sword in 2003 and Sacred Stones in 2004. Meanwhile, Awakening was released in 2012 and Fates in 2015.

The comment was more in reference to how many AAA games these days often are incredibly glitchy upon release; I suppose using the same engine helped to make things easier (The GBA games are pretty samey).

I also know that being mainstream is better for the series because Capitalism and stuff, but I had to be fair to IainfeelsSicK (and I have my own concerns).

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I wasn't making an excuse.

I am a pessimist... I see the worst. That's where the over extensive generalizing and unwarranted frustration comes from. I can't help that, but you are right critiquing the games is way more worth getting angry at an audience.

Ah, clearly my mistake.

Now that it's off my chest I admit and have implied several times now that attacking an audience is silly and pointless; I won't be doing it anymore and I even wanted to move on to discussing the games. However you arrogantly persist me like you don't understand concepts. Unless all you are looking for are ways to exploit my every word and flaw because you are THAT triggered and want to upset me in every possible aspect, I'd suggest you take a clue and move on like I did like 5 posts ago.

You're right, I did go overboard, and for that I apologize. However, you kept deflecting what I was saying, like I showed above.

See, the thing is, I still don't get where you're coming from. You want to rant, sure, but you've yet to explain how or why earlier Fire Emblem games are so superior and why the mainstream is such a bad thing for the series.

Also, please stop multiposting. You can edit an earlier post if you feel like you've got more to say.

I am well aware of the fact that he left after Thracia 776; I just mentioned him because he always has interesting ideas and the Saga games seem really fascinating. I am also pretty mixed on the changes in Fates with Revelation being a chore (I really dislike dragon veins).

I also didn't like Revelation, but that wasn't your point. You said Kaga's games were more risky gameplay-wise, and now we've just had the most risky title gameplay-wise in years, maybe even since he left, and that title came out after Awakening which arguably was what brought it into the mainstream.

There's no phrase in the industry which puts me off more than "appeal to a broader demographic", but Fire Emblem hasn't succumbed to it yet, especially not compared to many other series. Gameplay-wise, Fates shows us they're still ready to take risks, and that it can really pay off like with Conquest.

I would think that the fanbase would be okay without the marriage-and-children stuff if everything else was spectacular.

I don't understand what you're saying here. This is so far removed from what we were talking about that I don't know how to reply to it.

This fear is based on... [serenes' Law has been violated]. I agree that the plots have always been bad, but they were mostly inoffensive in previous games.

Fun fact, what people feel about stories is subjective. Before Fates I considered Blazing Sword to have by far the worst Fire Emblem plot. Before Awakening I've heard everyone hated on Radiant Dawn's.

Fire Emblem has never been known for its writing. Sometimes they pull off something great, like Lyon and the character interactions in Radiant Dawn, but to say "Fire Emblem becoming mainstream means that the story will be simple and poorly written" sounds...odd in the context of the series, not to mention completely unfounded; don't you think people prefer having a game with good writing? Do you think the developers thought "gee, it's a good thing we only have to please a few hundreds of thousands rather than one or two million people, otherwise we could never have included medieval politics in our game!" when writing the Tellius series?

Yes, I hate Fates' writing, and I'm worried about the fan service, but the criticism against the games' writing has been so massive that I'm sure they'll reconsider a few priorities for the next installment.

TMS was released on a horribly unsuccessful console and was censored in international versions, which is not good for a game with only Japanese voice acting (not having English voice acting also hurt it as most people want stuff like that). The game would have done fairly well if they took out all of the Fire Emblem stuff and put the game on the PS4. I also mention otaku as they make up a significant portion of the Japanese customer base and are willing to shell out lots of money for nerdy stuff (they are the reason companies make money off of those overpriced PVC figurines).

Indeed, and my point was that big breasts and big names weren't the only reasons a game sold well, thus they can't rely solely on that. Let's also not pretend that no matter how good the gameplay was, the premise was built around what's currently popular in Japan and they tried to pander to the people who are into it, yet the game flopped in spite of that. It was tone death, and I'm certain that contributed to its failure as well.

Also, how in the blazes can an industry-wide problem which encourages catering to these otaku be blamed on Fire Emblem going mainstream? You don't think lesser known series don't try pandering as well?

Like I mentioned in my previous post, technology is one of the reasons why this is now more relevant than before; you couldn't do those kinds of petting mini games before with good-looking sprites, but now you can. That's not Fire Emblem going mainstream's fault.

Once again, I'm also incredibly skeptical of the fan service elements in the newer titles, but you make it sound like if Fire Emblem had just stayed a lesser known title they'd somehow be free from corporate bigwigs and have much more integrity - do you think the developers joking about giving Camilla horns to provoke the image of a cow is a result of Fire Emblem going mainstream or an indication that the developers themselves might have a thing or two to think over?

Characters in the previous games are mostly pretty flat, but they feel more authentic as most people are nice and pretty boring in real life. The flatness of the characters meant the tropes and gimmicks were not as overbearing.

If they had had the modern support system, they more than likely would've been. Hate on the support system, not Fire Emblem going mainstream.

And yes, I realize there's a relationship between the shipping culture and the awful support system, but there's no doubt in my mind a compromise could be made here; there's nothing forcing Intelligent Systems to write supports so that almost everyone can marry each other. It makes no sense for Azura to be able to support all of the non-corrinsexual men but not talk to her kidnapper. Priorities are to blame here, I feel like.

The comment was more in reference to how many AAA games these days often are incredibly glitchy upon release; I suppose using the same engine helped to make things easier (The GBA games are pretty samey).

Well, were Awakening and Fates?

Also, I thought you were afraid of a lack of innovation due to the mainstream, but now you say yourself that the GBA games are pretty samey. You're sending me mixed signals here.

I also know that being mainstream is better for the series because Capitalism and stuff, but I had to be fair to IainfeelsSicK (and I have my own concerns).

These aren't your own concerns? Then what the hell have I been replying to all this time?

Edited by Thane
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You can't underestimate the effect Awakening had on the direction of the series. Especially in terms of tone, it set a standard, and the explosion of popularity meant the next game would be judged against Awakening rather than the series as a whole.

I don't think Fates was particularly risky. It kept the core of Awakening intact. From a veteran's perspective, removing weapon durability and expanding the weapon triangle were weird changes, but I am sure they were considered carefully. Certainly, they're less likely to cause a sales backlash than the simplication of the Binding Blade and Shadow Dragon, and Tellius going back to consoles.

Re: the support system, Radiant Dawn allowed everyone to support each other. They didn't try to write detailed supports for everyone, they used base conversations for developing minor characters. The only explanation for this mechanic regressing is the re-introduction of the marriage system which was an attempt to make FE more mainstream.

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You can't underestimate the effect Awakening had on the direction of the series. Especially in terms of tone, it set a standard, and the explosion of popularity meant the next game would be judged against Awakening rather than the series as a whole.

I don't. However, copying Awakening's formula and several characters were a mistake on Intelligent System's part, rather than a direct consequence of Fire Emblem becoming mainstream.

I also believe Awakening did a lot of good for the franchise, though now we're entering very subjective territory here. However, I must say I think some of the changes would have happened regardless of Awakening's tone or not - let's not forget that avatar creation and casual mode were introduced in FE12.

I don't think Fates was particularly risky. It kept the core of Awakening intact. From a veteran's perspective, removing weapon durability and expanding the weapon triangle were weird changes, but I am sure they were considered carefully.

I think Fates tried appealing to everyone, which is one of the reasons why it fails on many levels, but let's not pretend there weren't a lot of dramatic changes here, for better or for worse. They removed weapon durability for the first time since Gaiden, added Dragon Veins, reinvented the weapon triangle, modified the pair up system, introduced more direct multiplayer and then added more minor things like base building.

I may not like Fates very much as a whole but I don't ignore the changes it brought with it. Calling those changes weird from a veteran's perspective doesn't nullify the fact that they're significant.

Re: the support system, Radiant Dawn allowed everyone to support each other. They didn't try to write detailed supports for everyone, they used base conversations for developing minor characters. The only explanation for this mechanic regressing is the re-introduction of the marriage system which was an attempt to make FE more mainstream.

I don't think removing all of the supports are the way to go. Path of Radiance had both, after all.

I think base conversations would be an amazing thing to bring back, but again I don't think Intelligent Systems are going "welp, we're mainstream now, so we can't have those kinds of conversations anymore. Sorry". I think the support system as it is now is detrimental to the writing, and I'm sure a compromise can be reached between the shippers and us who would like to see fewer but better written supports in general.

The only point I'm trying to make here is that I don't think Fire Emblem becoming more popular is synonymous with a declining quality. There are plenty of really good big budget games out there and a lot of really shitty lesser known ones, too. Some people also seem to get a bit paranoid and imagine problems that aren't even relevant at the present, or draw faulty correlations. Let's not freak out over imaginary problems, and let's not forget that no series can remain the same forever.

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Hey. Read a bit of these forums before, turns out I've had an account I've never posted with.

Personally, I'm in complete agreement with Thane here. Being mainstream will only do good for Fire Emblem in my opinion. I don't think Nintendo's really one to appeal to the lowest common denominator in this day and age, or I doubt we'd never have IPs like Splatoon and ARMS, but with that said, more eyes on the series does create more pressure on IS to perform well. As Thane has said, there was a lot of ire concerning Fates story. As someone who cites Conquest as his favourite game for its unique premise and giving us a dark side of one of the lords in the series, I will admit in a heartbeat that the writing is riddled with plot holes and nonsensical decisions and it's certainly easy for me to see why people don't like it, even if I do.

In terms of sexually oriented fanservice, I'm of the camp that a bit of it won't hurt (the Summer Scramble type DLC maps, for example), but the series is definitely at risk of becoming saturated with it, even if it's being applied with male and female characters.

I'm personally very fond of the marriage mechanic because I'm a sad nerd who will never have a girlfriend, but I do think IS is at the point of shoe-horning it now. I opine that only the avatar (another newbie addition I'm also very fond of; basically a development of Blazing Sword's Tactician, Mark) should be able to marry every opposite gender (and some of those of the same gender!) who is not related to them, of an incompatible sexual orientation, or otherwise already spoken for, but that really should be it, and I would love to see some supports end only in a platonic manner (Xander-Sakura, anyone?).

Well, I obviously got rather side-tracked here, but to sum up: I don't think being "mainstream" will ever ruin Fire Emblem, but instead encourage IS to do the best they can with each game. As I have laid out in my post, I think that the more controversial elements of Fire Emblem can stay, but need to become more subtle. Specifically, I think they should take a back seat to focusing on solid gameplay (which I believe is definitely already there) and a good story, because surely we can live in a world where Fire Emblem games accommodate both epic, politically driven plots and a smattering of nerd fantasy (for lack of a better term, I know it's awful, and I apologise) in the form of the marriage (but not necessarily the child) mechanic?

Apologies for the text wall and all those parentheses, but I just wanted to weigh in. I hope that I'm welcome here in the forums. :)

Edited by InfinityAlex
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Just PLEASE don't over saturate the games with sexual fan service IS and we're golden. Also try a different approach to the story side of things in the future COUGH TELLIUS 3 PLEASE COOUUUUGGGHHH but really, as long as they take themselves seriously and care about world building and dark themes then I'm interested at what ever they can throw at me.

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Mainstream.

Let's not kid ourselves here with elitist opinions and old was better bullshit. Going mainstream is what saved the series from becoming dead. The old games, while good in its own right and are great games, didn't draw enough attention. Part of that was Nintendo's fault for not localizing sooner, and for not putting the right amount of focus on it, but let's not act like these games were ideal forms of perfection while the new stuff is mainstream shit.

The new direction has allowed for a larger amount of play styles. Casual players can sit down and enjoy the game now, which was never really capable before, while there is still plenty for the hardcore players to enjoy. Don't forget Awakening still had the Apotheosis DLC and Lunatic+, which clearly was not for the average player.

Fates took a lot of steps in the right direction. We love to bash the game for its story, but Fates, if you ignore the story, was a great next step for the series. It reintroduced map objectives, it made a difficult game with memorable maps like Conquest chapter 10 that is up there with some of the most difficult entrances in the series. It refined and balanced reclassing, it refined and rebalanced pair up, it introduced a much more strategic system than weapon durability (though it still needs touch ups, but if Fates is what came from Awakening, then we will be fine. IS took criticism very well and fixed a lot of what needed it. The new weapon system will get the same treatment)

It also tried some new and interesting things. As much hate as My Castle for taking you out of the story, it's hard to deny it isn't a bad idea. Base building and management has a place in the series, it just needs some work. If IS takes My Castle and refines it for 15 like they did Pair Up and Reclass, then we will be set. Revelation, though lacking in any real memorable maps and story, did try some new and interesting things as well. The moving platforms and puzzle like design for some of its maps are an interesting idea I would love to see built off of. The new personal skills are also an interesting step forward for the series as it will add even more uniqueness and difference in strategy for characters, builds, and team make up.

Overall, mainstream has done nothing for the series but help it. If Fates is what came from Awakening, then the next game will only get better. And don't forget how well IS took criticism, while Fates story sucked, it was their honest attempt at fixing Awakenings story issues. So they will likely take the criticism of Fates story seriously going forward. So let's drop the hipster attitude and enjoy the fact that Fire Emblem is finally getting the attention and credit it deserved for so long.

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Mainstream.

Let's not kid ourselves here with elitist opinions and old was better bullshit. Going mainstream is what saved the series from becoming dead. The old games, while good in its own right and are great games, didn't draw enough attention. Part of that was Nintendo's fault for not localizing sooner, and for not putting the right amount of focus on it, but let's not act like these games were ideal forms of perfection while the new stuff is mainstream shit.

The new direction has allowed for a larger amount of play styles. Casual players can sit down and enjoy the game now, which was never really capable before, while there is still plenty for the hardcore players to enjoy. Don't forget Awakening still had the Apotheosis DLC and Lunatic+, which clearly was not for the average player.

Fates took a lot of steps in the right direction. We love to bash the game for its story, but Fates, if you ignore the story, was a great next step for the series. It reintroduced map objectives, it made a difficult game with memorable maps like Conquest chapter 10 that is up there with some of the most difficult entrances in the series. It refined and balanced reclassing, it refined and rebalanced pair up, it introduced a much more strategic system than weapon durability (though it still needs touch ups, but if Fates is what came from Awakening, then we will be fine. IS took criticism very well and fixed a lot of what needed it. The new weapon system will get the same treatment)

It also tried some new and interesting things. As much hate as My Castle for taking you out of the story, it's hard to deny it isn't a bad idea. Base building and management has a place in the series, it just needs some work. If IS takes My Castle and refines it for 15 like they did Pair Up and Reclass, then we will be set. Revelation, though lacking in any real memorable maps and story, did try some new and interesting things as well. The moving platforms and puzzle like design for some of its maps are an interesting idea I would love to see built off of. The new personal skills are also an interesting step forward for the series as it will add even more uniqueness and difference in strategy for characters, builds, and team make up.

Overall, mainstream has done nothing for the series but help it. If Fates is what came from Awakening, then the next game will only get better. And don't forget how well IS took criticism, while Fates story sucked, it was their honest attempt at fixing Awakenings story issues. So they will likely take the criticism of Fates story seriously going forward. So let's drop the hipster attitude and enjoy the fact that Fire Emblem is finally getting the attention and credit it deserved for so long.

Interesting. When I look at it like that it's hard to deny that fire emblem is going in such a good direction because IS seems to listen to criticism well and you're right that fates made a TON of game play improvements to awakening's formula. I just hope they can do to the story what they've done to the gameplay.

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