What portion of modern FE's sales do you think is owed to the waifu/children stuff?

[Alastor15243]

So I've been contemplating a post I'm going to make about how I would personally have written Fates' story and how I would have modified gameplay, and one of the rules I'm setting for myself is that I can't make any changes that would obviously require significantly more money to produce (I'm not going to go hugely into economics or anything but basically that means it would have to have the same number of maps, chapters, character portraits, weapons, classes, etc.), and I can't do anything that would have significantly crippled Fates' sales.

And I'm debating whether or not that second rule means I have to keep the children in and have to settle for making them make more sense, or if I can dispense with them and go back to traditional fire emblems with childless romance. The children are this huge nonsensical mass of dead weight upon so much of the game's resources, and I have so many great ideas for what their absence could be filled with. So I have a question I wanted to pose to the people here:

What portion of modern FE's audience do you think is primarily or only here because of the waifu/hazubendo and children stuff, to the degree that had it not been in they would not have bought it and were it removed they would jump ship?

Edited January 15, 2017 by Alastor15243

[Radiant head]

i really want to believe it's not, but hard to tell? i guess the only evidence is that hard anime/dating sim kind of games are pretty niche compared to stuff in the triple a space so tentatively leaning on 'probably not.'

i guess the real question is how much nintendo/is thinks fire emblem's rise is because of that stuff.

Edited January 15, 2017 by Radiant head

[Anacybele]

I'm leaning on definitely not, because there's way more to FE, even Awakening and Fates, than just shipping and marriage. Hell, in Fates it's just shoehorned in because it was thought to be popular and this got a lot of complaints. It had nothing to do with the main game.

[Tolvir]

I don't think it is enough to cripple them, but at least with the Waifu stuff it's significant enough for it to probably stay in, especially in Japan. Honestly, it's probably here to stay for a while between the recent trends in anime and jrpgs having romance type of mechanics, hell even the west had it. As much as we make fun of Waifus in Fates and Awakening, Mass Effect is a really big series, and one of their main selling points is in depth characters including romance. Look at how many discussions there were over Tali, Liara, Garrus, etc as romance options, it was all over the place.

So that probably isn't going anywhere anytime soon. Children on the other hand are likely to be absent in the next game. I can see them returning as DLC, but otherwise I don't think they will be back

Edited January 15, 2017 by Tolvir

[Ryo]

Waifu and children are actually two separate concepts, and are not necessarily interchangeable. Children are mostly seen as a gameplay mechanic, while the waifu stuffs are both gameplay and also something to gush about on a personal level.

[Thane]

Seeing as the kids are an afterthought in Fates whose inclusion surprised pretty much everyone on the forum if I remember correctly, I'd say they're at least considering moving away from the current formula. They would not do so if it would crippled their sales.

I think quite a few people play the game mostly for supports and shipping - I have a friend or two who play it mostly for that reason - but I'm not sure specific pandering is necessary them. I'm sure they'd enjoy the game even with a system that didn't let you ship everyone with everyone, though I've got no proof of that and I'm only speaking from a limited selection of people.

[Shadow Mir]

Tbh, I seriously doubt it really has much of anything to do with the sales - romance has been a part of video games loooooong before Awakening and Fates came along.

[carefreejules]

I went for definitely not because, as much as people will joke about how all the fanservice and pandering 'saved' the series, I really don't think that's the sole reason/driving factor as to why people bought the games. At least, when it comes to the majority.

Things like support conversations and character relationships have always been part of the main franchise that if they were to tone down the amount of fanservice, I don't think it would change people's reasons for buying it. People are very reactionary and when they hear news that makes them disappointed or upset, they start thinking irrationally. But as time goes on, people usually suck it up.

I mean, thinking back to how much people were upset about the whole skinship thing - from what I've seen, people don't really seem to care all that much about it anymore. People are more quick to be upset over something being taken away versus something that wasn't presented to begin with.

With the Japanese version being released first, everyone will hold those same expectations for the NOA release. If both versions are pretty much the same, imo, regardless of whether there's more or less fanservice, I doubt it'll change much.

[Reality]

It's success had more aggressive marketing, more accessible game play and stuff like casual mode, not to mention being released for a handheld at the top of its game and being really clear about when the international releases came out, instead of letting it kind of drift in after the Japanese version.

Talking to vocal outliers on art/fan sites about how art/characters factored into purchasing the game is probably misleading.

Edited January 15, 2017 by Reality

[Heruseus]

I say probably not because most people won't buy a game just to play around with waifus, but I dont think it is a small part

[AlexArtsHere]

It's hard to say; For me personally, the combination of the avatar and the marriage mechanic was a big source of enjoyment (the former more than the latter) and was definitely a factor in getting me into the series. Fire Emblem Awakening is the first game I've ever played, apart from Dragon Quest IX, which made me feel like I was actually, y'know, role playing. I've never taken it to an extreme mindset where I literally want to marry a fictional construct, but I find it to be a very endearing feature. I also feel that the option of homosexual marriage introduced in Fates was a very smart move, without going too much into politics.

That said, Fire Emblem's current gameplay is more than good enough that I would still play it if the waifu aspect was removed. I'm not sure I'd have as much fun if it was, but if the gameplay wasn't good enough to stand without this aspect, I would have never picked up Fates. I think what I'm trying to say is; Yes, I think the marriage feature is great, but it's not why I play Fire Emblem.

Children on the other hand...ech. I really liked them in Awakening. They were tied to the plot and, for the most part, none of them annoyed me. With Fates, I didn't bother with children because they've no reason to exist and I just don't care about them (with the exception of Velouria, whose design I quite like). Awakening did it well, but it's become old fast and I think IS should drop it for a while.

tl,dr; Keep the marriage mechanic and romantic supports (though scale it back a bit maybe, not every male/female support needs an S rank to cap it off; I think Xander-Sakura's platonic supports are great in Fates), but I wouldn't miss the children if they were gone.

[Paper Jam]

It's unfortunate that there aren't any current FE games that don't have marriages and children, as that would make it clearer how important those are to Awakening's and Fates' success.

I don't think it's possible to compare VC sales (in particular of FE7, 8, and 11) to sales of FE13 and 14, either.

I could only speak for my personal experience (i.e. enjoying FE7 and 8 more than 13 and 14), but of course PEMN.

[Azure Sen]

Removing the waifu/fanservice elements would definitely cripple the series' sales. People really seem to underestimate how much money the otaku who those elements pander to bring to the table, at least in Japan itself. The modern anime industry is basically completely funded by otaku, as is much of Japan's video game industry, and removing the elements that directly pander to them is tantamount to financial suicide because otaku not only buy the games but they buy all the merchandise as well, which is where the real money comes in. The situation's not quite like that over here in the West (it's not that we don't have those sort of otaku over here, it's just that they seem to number far less), but IntSys has already made it pretty clear that their primary demographic is the Japanese audience.

[Sentinel07]

Maybe a little, but I'd lean more towards no.

Casual mode and some real advertising did most of the work. Awakening was the first time Nintendo put real effort into advertising Fire Emblem.

Edited January 15, 2017 by Sentinel07

[Anacybele]

Removing the waifu/fanservice elements would definitely cripple the series' sales. People really seem to underestimate how much money the otaku who those elements pander to bring to the table, at least in Japan itself. The modern anime industry is basically completely funded by otaku, as is much of Japan's video game industry, and removing the elements that directly pander to them is tantamount to financial suicide because otaku not only buy the games but they buy all the merchandise as well, which is where the real money comes in. The situation's not quite like that over here in the West (it's not that we don't have those sort of otaku over here, it's just that they seem to number far less), but IntSys has already made it pretty clear that their primary demographic is the Japanese audience.

Uh, dude. Then how do you explain Mario, Zelda, and Pokemon being as popular as they are? They've never had such elements in their games. The closest we've seen is being able to get Pipit and Karane together in Zelda: Skyward Sword, and that's only a sidequest.

Edited January 15, 2017 by Anacybele

[Original Alear]

My gut feeling is that Fates might, might, have been able to sell without too much pairing stuff, but that people really liked it in Awakening, and that if Nintendo had had to explicitly say they were doing LESS of it, people would have wondered if that was in some way a disavowal of Awakening, or something along those lines. The only reason I think Fates might have been able to sell that well without it is because I think Nintendo did a good job of making Fates have a really strong...I dunno, identity? Style? Personality? When I saw the first bit of Fates stuff, it still felt very FE, but it felt like they had something very particular in mind for this game. On a very superficial level, Awakening feels more like "we are publishing a new entry in the Fire Emblem series" to me, although it certainly did enough new/different stuff.

Realistically, I know nothing concrete about sales, or why people bought more Awakening or Fates than prior FE's. Maybe AzureSen is right - if "otaku money" is a big portion of FE's constituency, then nintendo probably has awareness of that and probably acted accordingly to seize on it.

Uh, dude. Then how do you explain Mario, Zelda, and Pokemon being as popular as they are? They've never had such elements in their games. The closest we've seen is being able to get Pipit and Karane together in Zelda: Skyward Sword, and that's only a sidequest.

Two things spring to mind:

-His point is not that every game must pander to otaku, but that this tactic can work. Maybe Zelda, Mario and Pokemon didn't need these elements to sell. Maybe Fire Emblem didn't need them to sell - maybe other elements would have worked. But maybe "waifu/children" stuff is what has helped FE recently. The fact that other nintendo games succeed without making you make your characters have romance and have kids doesn't mean FE didn't succeed because it did.

-Just because you cannot control romantic pairings in games like Mario and Zelda does not mean they in no way appeal to people with any interest in romance.

-I don't think Fire Emblem is as iconic as any of the three series you listed, but I think it has gotten closer after Awakening and Fates than it was before.

Regarding the first: I think it's pretty agreed upon that the 3ds FE's sold very well compared to the Tellius and remake games? And it's pretty hard not to notice a shift in tone/atmosphere/style. Awakening and Fates are just...way more anime (for the record: I like the Tellius games the best, but I got no problem with people who like the most recent games the best, waifus and all). Moreover, player choice in pairings are probably more important to awakening in terms of developing characters than in any prior FE game, except perhaps FE4 (the other one with a second gen of characters). There are characters who won't exist unless you get S supports for certain girls. It's worth advancing alternative explanations for why Awakening and Fates have done much better if you think these aren't the only reasons.

I do want to point out your own sentence: "I'm leaning on definitely not, because there's way more to FE, even Awakening and Fates, than just shipping and marriage." The word "even" suggests you don't like them as much (I feel the same way). IMO, the best elements of FE were stronger in earlier FE games than Awakening and Fates. However, these most recent games are doing better. It is possible that the things that were always good about FE weren't noticed as much until the most recent games. Maybe something about distribution, advertising, etc. that isn't even as substantive as the ability to pair characters "got the word out" and people got interested in FE for reasons having nothing to do with what we notice as different from game to game. But that might not be the case.

Regarding the second: FE has a much larger cast of playable characters than Mario and Zelda games tend to. FE's ensemble cast tends to develop far more than pokemon's ensemble cast does as individuals - because very few pokemon you catch and raise are really paid attention to as "individuals" in the game with actual dialogue to the level that Fire Emblem does. Pokemon are almost always more developed as individuals with their own backstory, etc, if they are pokemon you never catch (owned by another trainer or some such) or they are pokemon you are going to catch. As far as I know, development is far more likely to end after you catch them (some exceptions exist, like legendaries that can change new forms or learn new moves, I guess). Pokemon has other human NPCs throughout the game. They aren't under anywhere near as much control, and don't tend to do as much.

FE's basic framework as a game is just much, much more easily organized around "waifu/children stuff" where the player has a role in determining what happens. There are tons of characters who are with you every chapter and you control in battle. And they all speak english/japanese/[language of game release].

Most pokemon just say their name over and over - mostly not really fertile material for romance or character development. I'm a big fan of Denning and Monica, but...

Oh, also, in zelda seasons and ages you can interact with two parents as they raise a kid (they'll name him after you if you want and everything), but that's an extremely minimal part of the games.

I agree you don't have to have pairing systems in a game for it to succeed - but FE is better suited to make use of them. It has been making use of them to a marginal extent since FE3 at least (you gotta have guy x y and z talk to girl x y and z in the final chapter to save/rerecruit them iirc and most/all of those guys and girls get together afterwards). It made much more prominent/open use of them in FE Awakening and Fates than in either Tellius or either Archanea remake.

Personally, I'm not sure pairings had as much to do with Fates's initial buzz as it's story/premise. I might be wrong, but I think the basic idea of "choose between two kingdoms! choose between two families!" had a really strong feeling to it, even if it's not something I haven't seen before, and it got my attention - and I think it got the attention of others when info on the game first came out. Kamui might be my least favorite FE protag, but I think he/she is probably the most "sellable" one. And that isn't because I looked at Kamui and thought "I want to find out what kind of romance Kamui has with every other unit in this game." I think the idea of having different sets of design/inspiration for Nohr and Hoshido might have helped a lot too - I wish this had worked in Radiant Dawn's favor too (I still think the intro cutscene for Radiant Dawn is superb).

I don't really remember Awakening's pre-release as much, so I don't really know why it did better, and that's probably more relevant. I think Nintendo did a good job with getting the buzz out about fates, but I think Awakening probably helped a lot all the same.

[Roflolxp54]

More advertising likely played the biggest part. Sure, the waifu/husbando and children stuff played a part, but there's also the return of Casual mode, the debut of Normal Phoenix mode, My Castle (which developers from IS consider big enough that it could've been its own game), catering to both new and veteran players via Birthright and Conquest versions respectively, the promise of a good and dark story (which didn't happen at all), having a playable player avatar (who's none other than the main lord/protagonist no less) and the various gameplay changes (no durability, revamped pair-up mechanics, etc.).

[solrocknroll]

Maybe not the complete reason, but definitely more than some purist fans would like to admit.

I'd also include Casual Mode there too.

I don't think they need marriage to sell, but thinking that marriage didn't affect the sales at all is presumptuous and likely untrue. There are many factors for sales and discrediting any of them would be inaccurate.

[Lord Chrom of Ylisse]

I think that even if the marriage and children stuff did bring a lot of new fans into the series, now that fire emblem is mainstream and widely recognized I don't think we would need it for the series to be successful. 

[Dinar87]

15 minutes ago, Lord Chrom of Ylisse said:

I think that even if the marriage and children stuff did bring a lot of new fans into the series, now that fire emblem is mainstream and widely recognized I don't think we would need it for the series to be successful. 

Again, I completely agree with you. As long as the newer fire emblems are still heavily advertised and have things like casual mode and some supports, I don't think they necessarily have to stick firmly to the "waifu emblem formula" of "mariage, children, fan service, etc...". While having kids and camillas would probably benefit sales I don't see fire emblem dying or anything like that if such things went away.

Besides, everyone always praises games like conquest usually for it's excellent game play so as long as they keep that and continue to improve upon it, I don't see fire emblem going away any time soon. 

[Lord Chrom of Ylisse]

4 minutes ago, Dinar87 said:

Again, I completely agree with you. As long as the newer fire emblems are still heavily advertised and have things like casual mode and some supports, I don't think they necessarily have to stick firmly to the "waifu emblem formula" of "mariage, children, fan service, etc...". While having kids and camillas would probably benefit sales I don't see fire emblem dying or anything like that if such things went away.

Besides, everyone always praises games like conquest usually for it's excellent game play so as long as they keep that and continue to improve upon it, I don't see fire emblem going away any time soon. 

Me and everyone else I know who bought awakening without having played any other game in the series didn't buy it for the waifu stuff. It was because of how much publicity surrounded it.

Edited January 20, 2017 by Lord Chrom of Ylisse
I forgot to add text to the quote

[Dinar87]

7 minutes ago, Lord Chrom of Ylisse said:

Me and everyone else I know who bought awakening without having played any other game in the series didn't buy it for the waifu stuff. It was because of how much publicity surrounded it.

It seems a lot of awakening fans, myself included, bought awakening as their first game. While I don't speak for everyone, I bought it because it looked like a deep rpg, it was advertised heavily AND, most importantly, it had a demo. I played the awakneing demo over and over again because I couldn't decide whether I liked it or not, and eventually got awakening and had a blast.

A demo is all you need really. And good advertising.

[General Banzai]

More likely the smooth as fuck gameplay, Casual Mode, and a more anime art style did it

[Ryo]

31 minutes ago, Lord Chrom of Ylisse said:

Me and everyone else I know who bought awakening without having played any other game in the series didn't buy it for the waifu stuff. It was because of how much publicity surrounded it.

Me too. The waifu thing didn't really appeal much to me since building relationships between characters sounded like a boring side-quest. Though I wouldn't be surprised if someone bought the game specifically for marriage and stuffs.

[Water Mage]

On 15/01/2017 at 5:09 PM, Anacybele said:

Uh, dude. Then how do you explain Mario, Zelda, and Pokemon being as popular as they are? They've never had such elements in their games. The closest we've seen is being able to get Pipit and Karane together in Zelda: Skyward Sword, and that's only a sidequest.

Actually Zelda is not super popular in Japan compared to the west. And even then, there's quite a bit of otaku pandering in the Zelda series as a whole.

And Pokemon sells well because of otaku pandering, the Pokemon series has a lot of merchandise that were made with otaku in mind. The only exception is Mario, and even then, there is a bit of otaku pandering in the Mario games.

Edited January 20, 2017 by Water Mage