Fire Emblem Heroes General Discussion and Links

[DehNutCase]

@Rezzy If you use the Nox Multi-player menu to create a new instance of the emulator, it starts without a google account. No reason not to do that, since you'd have to reenter account info after you replace Google's stuff with MicroG, but I attached some screenshots of where to go to the account normally:

(If you can't open the settings, then I don't know what to do, either.)

 

 

Edited March 27, 2017 by DehNutCase

[Rezzy]

20 minutes ago, MrSmokestack said:

The only issue I have with healers is having their damage halved. I don't really understand why this is necessary, unless it was to keep them from being mages that were unaffected by the color triangle? It just seems like such an abstract measure otherwise.

Everything else though is fine. The staves themselves all have utility, while Recover / Rehabilitate is the closest thing to scaled healing as this game is going to get.

 

16 minutes ago, Quintessence said:

Perhaps having high dmg would make some mages obsolete as people would opt for high dmg + debuff rather than plain dmg. I agree with this, if it is the case. Healers like Elise, Lachesis, Lucius, Priscilla, Sakura and Serra all have respectable base atk at min 28 max 32 with neutral atk, sum weapon mt, buffs, spurs and weapon debuff and they can be considered dangerous, plus healing and support utility.

Why not just have their weapons have lower Might than Tomes or otherwise just have healers mostly have low Atk?  As is, their Atk stat is a lie anyway, so why not just make it affect reality?  I think having Dancers have good attack is worse than having Healers have decent attack, but they seem to have gotten off without a nerf.

[ILikeKirbys]

25 minutes ago, MaskedAmpharos said:

That's certainly fair. 

Veronica's tome is literally just a high-damage nuke with a Panic side effect, and it's quite effective sooo

Yeah, that's quite annoying, though that's more due to Veronica being a walking Green nuke than the Panic effect (which is annoying, don't get me wrong, but really it's nothing compared to realizing that my only characters who can tank a hit from Veronica are Julia and +RES Roy). But it is a good argument for keeping healers with halved attack, since I can imagine how crazy that could get if they didn't have a built-in nerf on 'em

13 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

45 Atk with weapon-triangle-neutral magic would be excellent neutral coverage against the largely magic-weak physical units in the game, especially with something like Elise's 32 neutral Spd and cavalry mobility (and the fact that she takes cavalry buffs).

Such as this. That would be a magical attacker with 3 MOV and (assuming 1 Hone Cavalry and 2 Goad Cavalrys) 46 ATK and SPD. I don't think there's a single unit that could double her at that point. Or, if you only use 1 Goad Cavalry (presumably to run a Dancer or something, to ensure that at least one enemy dies every turn), that's 42 ATK and SPD, which is still pretty amazing, especially considering that Elise's damage will generally be ignoring the weapon triangle (unless you have a -raven tome, which you would if you knew teams could run around with a colorless magic attacker this powerful).

This is a pretty good argument for healers being weakened in some way relative to other mages, at least I think so.

10 minutes ago, Rezzy said:

Why not just have their weapons have lower Might than Tomes or otherwise just have healers mostly have low Atk?  As is, their Atk stat is a lie anyway, so why not just make it affect reality?  I think having Dancers have good attack is worse than having Healers have decent attack, but they seem to have gotten off without a nerf.

Probably because then healers would have crap BSTs, thus making them useless for scoring in the Arena under the current formula.

And the Dancers have crap defenses (at least Olivia does, I dunno about Azura but I assume she does too), or are Ninian and thus must fear Falchions and Julia, neither of which healers have to worry about.

Edited March 27, 2017 by ILikeKirbys

[Cute Chao]

8 minutes ago, Rezzy said:

 

Why not just have their weapons have lower Might than Tomes or otherwise just have healers mostly have low Atk?  As is, their Atk stat is a lie anyway, so why not just make it affect reality?  I think having Dancers have good attack is worse than having Healers have decent attack, but they seem to have gotten off without a nerf.

It could be argued that their nerf is possibly that they don't get exp and sp when they dance? Healers are possibly the easiest to get sp for, since I think they get at least 1sp whenever they heal? (I could be wrong about that - I'm not fully sure how it works). But I do agree - I mean once I got her levelled a bit and learned how to properly use it, I find Azura especially to be pretty overpowered. That being said, going against Azama in the Tower brings me out in a cold sweat. I'm not sure if the game cheats with those or if those are his actual five star stats, but if they are, he's pretty killer. 

[Quintessence]

13 minutes ago, Rezzy said:

 

Why not just have their weapons have lower Might than Tomes or otherwise just have healers mostly have low Atk?  As is, their Atk stat is a lie anyway, so why not just make it affect reality?  I think having Dancers have good attack is worse than having Healers have decent attack, but they seem to have gotten off without a nerf.

Well I do not know, maybe to avoid messing with base stats or something, or messing up with growth points or something. I think the idea behind them is to establish a clear difference, specially in terms of offense, between the mage role and healer role, because really, in current FE there's almost literally no difference (in the long term) between running Serra or Lucius as both will wreck shit on late game.

Edited March 27, 2017 by Quintessence

[Rezzy]

13 minutes ago, DehNutCase said:

@Rezzy If you use the Nox Multi-player menu to create a new instance of the emulator, it starts without a google account. No reason not to do that, since you'd have to reenter account info after you replace Google's stuff with MicroG, but I attached some screenshots of where to go to the account normally:

(If you can't open the settings, then I don't know what to do, either.)

 

 

Thanks, I'll have to try that when I have time.  Although I'm wary about deleting too much on my computer.  I'm worried about messing something up.

2 minutes ago, ILikeKirbys said:

Probably because then healers would have crap BSTs, thus making them useless for scoring in the Arena under the current formula.

Truth be told, their BST are inflated and don't accurately represent how useful they are, since half their Atk stat is a lie anyway.  Then there's the case that BST isn't that great for determining usefulness anyway, since there's plenty of units that have low BST, but are top-tier, like Takumi.

2 minutes ago, Cute Chao said:

It could be argued that their nerf is possibly that they don't get exp and sp when they dance? Healers are possibly the easiest to get sp for, since I think they get at least 1sp whenever they heal? (I could be wrong about that - I'm not fully sure how it works). But I do agree - I mean once I got her levelled a bit and learned how to properly use it, I find Azura especially to be pretty overpowered. That being said, going against Azama in the Tower brings me out in a cold sweat. I'm not sure if the game cheats with those or if those are his actual five star stats, but if they are, he's pretty killer. 

Yeah, I love leveling Healers.  I'm not sure why people say it's hard.

[Arcanite]

19 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Which is why I specifically said Threaten and Spur, but not Hone. Hone with 2 squares of range would be broken.

Can't just let a dream be a dream, huh?

I guess so, but healers have okay/shoddy utility in arena because of their low stat total. They should just say "screw it" and give them all some more defense. This way they can be used as a meat shield or something at the very least! That wouldn't be consistent with the way they work in the regular games but still, someone do something! I want to use my baby gurl Serra in Arena! 

[ILikeKirbys]

1 minute ago, Arcanite said:

Can't just let a dream be a dream, huh?

I guess so, but healers have okay/shoddy utility in arena because of their low stat total. They should just say "screw it" and give them all some more defense. This way they can be used as a meat shield or something at the very least! That wouldn't be consistent with the way they work in the regular games but still, someone do something! I want to use my baby gurl Serra in Arena! 

Well, hopefully healers will become more useful when Defend maps are added (I think they'll be in the April update, at least I remember reading that somewhere). Dunno if those'll be in the Arena, but I can hope!

And don't let apparent uselessness stop you from using healers! I've pretty much always used Sakura in the Arena since I got her, and it usually works out pretty well!

7 minutes ago, Rezzy said:

Yeah, I love leveling Healers.  I'm not sure why people say it's hard.

It's not really hard, so much as it is long. It took forever for me to get from level 39 to 40 with Sakura, since she has trouble killing things even with +ATK and thus needed to hit 40 through healing, which, if you deliberately heal about 2-5 times per map like I did, means you should get about 150-350 EXP per map (I think, it's been a while since Sakura hit 40 so I don't recall). When the amount Sakura needed to hit her final level was like 4000 or something. It took a while.

[Sias]

8 minutes ago, Arcanite said:

Can't just let a dream be a dream, huh?

I guess so, but healers have okay/shoddy utility in arena because of their low stat total. They should just say "screw it" and give them all some more defense. This way they can be used as a meat shield or something at the very least! That wouldn't be consistent with the way they work in the regular games but still, someone do something! I want to use my baby gurl Serra in Arena! 

I think the main problem with healers in the arena is that their healing just doesn't scale up with everyone else's damage progression (with the exception of Rehabilitate and maybe Martyr, but that's risky).

Recover, for example, might be a full heal for most level 1 characters, but is decidedly less impressive when you try to heal up your level 40 Hector that had to take a hard hit from an enemy Lucina. And then there's stuff like Physic with its amazing base heal of 8. Yeah.

It's made even more difficult by the fact that many healers have to choose between decent healing (Imbue) and team utility (Balm skills). Maybe they could try to stuff more supporting skills into the ABC slots? Because honestly, abilities like HP+5 on Lucius and Res+3 on Clarine are just vastly inferior when compared to other options like Serra's Hone Attack.

[Ice Dragon]

22 minutes ago, Rezzy said:

Why not just have their weapons have lower Might than Tomes or otherwise just have healers mostly have low Atk?  As is, their Atk stat is a lie anyway, so why not just make it affect reality?  I think having Dancers have good attack is worse than having Healers have decent attack, but they seem to have gotten off without a nerf.

Because decreasing Atk while dealing full damage rather than than halving damage causes healers to be completely hard-walled much more easily while making them too effective against low-Res units. Having higher Atk and halved damage means damage against all enemies is more consistent; it's harder to deal high amounts of damage and harder to be completely walled from dealing damage, especially with the low Atk of the debuffing staves.

If Atk were lowered and damage weren't halved, Atk buffs would also be given in full, allowing mounted staff-users to still demolish actual combat units. Even if Elise's Atk were decreased by 10 and staff damage set to deal damage in full (resulting in the same damage dealt against enemies with 22 Res), with 2 stacks of Goad Cavalry, she'd be double attacking most of the game with her 40 Spd and dealing 18 damage per hit to enemies with 22 Res (fairly typical for physical units), which is quite substantial.

[Rezzy]

6 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Because decreasing Atk while dealing full damage rather than than halving damage causes healers to be completely hard-walled much more easily while making them too effective against low-Res units. Having higher Atk and halved damage means damage against all enemies is more consistent; it's harder to deal high amounts of damage and harder to be completely walled from dealing damage, especially with the low Atk of the debuffing staves.

If Atk were lowered and damage weren't halved, Atk buffs would also be given in full, allowing mounted staff-users to still demolish actual combat units. Even if Elise's Atk were decreased by 10 and staff damage set to deal damage in full (resulting in the same damage dealt against enemies with 22 Res), with 2 stacks of Goad Cavalry, she'd be double attacking most of the game with her 40 Spd and dealing 18 damage per hit to enemies with 22 Res (fairly typical for physical units), which is quite substantial.

I think it Elise's case, that's more a mark of how broken stacking Goads is than how changing how Staff damage would be broken.  The effort into forming a team around making a Healer viable as a combatant would just more so make any other unit even more powerful.

[Quintessence]

29 minutes ago, Arcanite said:

Can't just let a dream be a dream, huh?

I guess so, but healers have okay/shoddy utility in arena because of their low stat total. They should just say "screw it" and give them all some more defense. This way they can be used as a meat shield or something at the very least! That wouldn't be consistent with the way they work in the regular games but still, someone do something! I want to use my baby gurl Serra in Arena! 

I'm actually surprised they didn't pull a focus banner titled: "I'm here. Lucky you" during march and making Serra one of the focus 5☆ lol

[DehNutCase]

Don't know if anyone listed this earlier, but there's a mass duel simulator on reddit that let's you test your unit vs. the bulk of the cast.

There's some minor issues with rounding and boon/bane (the creator assumed all boon/banes are +/- 3), but it seems pretty handy for testing how well a character build would work in general.

[Ice Dragon]

9 minutes ago, Rezzy said:

I think it Elise's case, that's more a mark of how broken stacking Goads is than how changing how Staff damage would be broken.  The effort into forming a team around making a Healer viable as a combatant would just more so make any other unit even more powerful.

Whether or not it's something with stacking buffs, that doesn't address my first point, which is by far the more important one.

Straight decreasing Atk results in healers being completely ineffectual against opponents with high Res while making them too effective against opponents with low Res. Furthermore, balancing their damage output against Assault would result in the debuff staves being nothing more than debuffs whereas balancing their damage output against the debuff staves would cause Assault to deal more damage than is reasonable for a dedicated support unit.

To illustrate, I'm going to use the strongest staff-user offensively, Elise (32 Atk), with the weakest staff-user offensively, Azama (21 Atk), both equipped with Assault.

Under the current system,

• Elise deals 14 damage to Ogma (13 Res), Azama deals 9 damage. Ogma has the lowest Res in the game as a level-40 5-star character.
• Elise deals 10 damage to Robin (22 Res), Azama deals 4 damage. Ignore weapon triangle on Blarraven for demonstration purposes. 22 Res is fairly typical for physical units, if maybe slightly high considering most physical units run -Res.
• Elise deals 7 damage to Azura (28 Res), Azama deals 1 damage. 28 Res is considered tanky.
• Elise deals 4 damage to Caeda (34 Res), Azama deals 0 damage. Felicia and Jagen are the only physical units with higher Res at 35 Res.

If we cut Atk by 5 and made staves deal full damage, you get

• Elise deals 24 damage to Ogma, Azama deals 13 damage.
• Elise deals 15 damage to Robin, Azama deals 4 damage.
• Elise deals 9 damage to Azura, Azama deals 0 damage.
• Elise deals 3 damage to Caeda, Azama deals 0 damage.

Now clearly Elise is dealing far too much damage if the equal damage point is sitting above 30 Res and she's hitting over 20 damage per hit against the game's lower-Res units, so let's lower the damage further. Atk is now decreased by 10 from current, resulting in

• Elise deals 19 damage to Ogma, Azama deals 8 damage.
• Elise deals 10 damage to Robin, Azama deals 0 damage.
• Elise deals 4 damage to Azura, Azama deals 0 damage.
• Elise deals 0 damage to Caeda, Azama deals 0 damage.

Now the numbers look rather fair for Elise where the equal damage point is 22 Res and this and the existing system differ by no more than 5 damage, but Azama is obviously struggling as his equal damage point is now below 13 Res and he deals zero damage to anything with more than 20 Res, which is more than half of the physical units in the game, not to mention almost all of the magic units, despite using the strongest weapon available to him, excluding secondary effects like Pain (because that is mutually exclusive with using a debuffing staff for actual support).

[Elieson]

50 minutes ago, DehNutCase said:

Don't know if anyone listed this earlier, but there's a mass duel simulator on reddit that let's you test your unit vs. the bulk of the cast.

There's some minor issues with rounding and boon/bane (the creator assumed all boon/banes are +/- 3), but it seems pretty handy for testing how well a character build would work in general.

It's alright; IMO the sort method (lack thereof) is super lame

[DehNutCase]

@Elieson

It seems to sort by HP remaining. First people you beat, then inconclusive matchups, then losing matchups.

It's actually a pretty good way to sort, since you can quickly jump to the matchups you win/lose by a hair.

Edit: You can also include/disclude certain units in order to only see a subset at once. (Note the enemy tab)

Edited March 27, 2017 by DehNutCase

[Quintessence]

Now I get @Ice Dragon's point (or I think so). The current dmg formula for healers [(atk+mt)-res]/2 helps them, overall, to have a more controlled combat (or have a more controlled dmg) than having the plain old dmg formula that might result in a volatile mass, where high atk healers would be super good while low atk healers would be terrible, or outright unviable offensively.

[Elieson]

1 minute ago, DehNutCase said:

@Elieson

It seems to sort by HP remaining. First people you beat, then inconclusive matchups, then losing matchups.

It's actually a pretty good way to sort, since you can quickly jump to the matchups you win/lose by a hair.

Edit: You can also include/disclude certain units in order to only see a subset at once. (Note the enemy tab)

I'll hope that the sort method changes; my mass battle calculator sorts by Color, then Name, with resulting damage to and fro. Just personal preference, in that I'd hope the columns can be clicked to apply a filter of "by Name" or "by Weapon" or something, so I could see "How does [X] faire against Blues, etc"

[DehNutCase]

Just now, Elieson said:

I'll hope that the sort method changes; my mass battle calculator sorts by Color, then Name, with resulting damage to and fro. Just personal preference, in that I'd hope the columns can be clicked to apply a filter of "by Name" or "by Weapon" or something, so I could see "How does [X] faire against Blues, etc"

Can't you just only show blues if you wanted to see how a unit works vs. blues?

 

[Quintessence]

1 minute ago, Elieson said:

I'll hope that the sort method changes; my mass battle calculator sorts by Color, then Name, with resulting damage to and fro. Just personal preference, in that I'd hope the columns can be clicked to apply a filter of "by Name" or "by Weapon" or something, so I could see "How does [X] faire against Blues, etc"

Is your calc this one?

[Elieson]

2 minutes ago, DehNutCase said:

Can't you just only show blues if you wanted to see how a unit works vs. blues?

 

Show me where on the http://andyiverson.me/apps/fehmasssimulator/ , that you can change the filter options (and remove the Mouseover too, which is irksome since mousing over obscures the unit below the person that you're mouse is over)

Edited March 27, 2017 by Elieson

[DehNutCase]

4 minutes ago, Elieson said:

Show me where on the http://andyiverson.me/apps/fehmasssimulator/ , that you can change the filter options (and remove the Mouseover too, which is irksome since mousing over obscures the unit below the person that you're mouse is over)

 

Edit: For the mousing over thing... can't you just zoom out?

Edited March 27, 2017 by DehNutCase

[Elieson]

6 minutes ago, Quintessence said:

Is your calc this one?

Nah, I reference that one for people like Ana etc, who want something to look at. Mine is just like IceDragons, a giant spreadsheet that just displays a no-frillls list of data with simple columns to show X Y Z information. At a glance, this is kinda what my thing shows in my raw calculation screen.

Spoiler

https://gyazo.com/1b414f2541df9c17c9ce70144c6a69c7

I'm building the next part that just lists the data without the Neutral/Effective/Ineffective columns, but I started here so I can just refence the formulae as needed.

@DehNutCase I mostly meant for the columns themselves. I did see that section, but if you scroll down, you need to scroll all the way back up to change options. It's just nitpicky I mean, but thank you for that clarity

1 minute ago, DehNutCase said:

Edited March 27, 2017 by Elieson

[eclipse]

Cool calculator, and it works in my browser!  However, I'd really like the option to bump down the star level for your own hero.  Most of my arsenal is 4*, and I know Jakob isn't going to win a bajillion battles with -Atk.

[Elieson]

16 minutes ago, DehNutCase said:

Edit: For the mousing over thing... can't you just zoom out?

Yea

I'm just saying, as a designer, There's tweaks that I hope get made to this which make it more user friendly (just like I think there should be tweaks to the FE Heroes thing that makes it more user friendly, like a "Sort by Name" option, etc)