Fire Emblem Heroes General Discussion and Links

[shadowofchaos]

23 minutes ago, XRay said:

Well, if we narrowly restrict canon to just its significance to the main plot line, then almost no detail matters. No marriage is canon, no children is canon except Lucina, Donnel and Mozu are not canon, anything optional and does not affect the plot is non canon, etc.

We do not know how exactly Priam came about, so anything can be canon. Even if the author specified how he came to be, the situation that you mentioned is just as canon since the multiverse theory allows it to happen.

The cop out may be for fans, but it might be there for the authors as well. It is possible the Dragon's Gate helped quell internal politics and waifu wars between the developers.

Well, hacking exists, and I am sure some hacker paired Cordelia with Chrom and Streetpassed that file to everyone they encounter.

Gaidens are never explicitly canon. That's the way it has been.

It has only been recently that it has been brought to attention because of that cop out. It gave everyone the justification they need.

Fan works are amazing and seeing every possibility is a great way to indulge in fire emblem. You don't think about what is canon or not. You just enjoy it.

Attempting to justify any optional content as canon has results like... The children having their hair color changed via magic.

Which unintentionally made anti-confirmations of similar hair colors.

Fans haven't changed. Neither has the definition of canon. They just fuss about it because it involves waifus and husbandos. Being in the YouTube spotlight, I've seen enough warping of the word "canon" to last a lifetime.

Also, hacking with streetpass doesn't work with that.

I'm one of the first who did do that and made a video about it. Pairings that don't exist in vanilla games will never show up. I've hacked MUxMU double Morgans. I've hacked Chrom marrying Nowi.

I've hacked stupid FE4 incest jokes level of crap.

None of them ever show up.

Optional content is only ever meant as fanservice and not to be taken seriously. Especially if it's DLC content.

Lyn DLC in Awakening would imply that Mark is Robin and not Mark aka Morgan.

Odin, Selena, and Laslow say that Fates is after Awakening. But before Awakening says its both via outrealms and via how Chrom knows of the legends of the clashing two kingdoms of Byakuya and Anya (Hoshido and Nohr).

Edited July 19, 2017 by shadowofchaos

[XRay]

3 minutes ago, shadowofchaos said:

None of them ever show up.

That is disappointing. Is it possible for NPC Streetpass teams to have Severa with blue hair and Avatar with non blue hair on the same team? That way, the only explanation for Severa's blue hair is that Cordelia's dream came true.

[shadowofchaos]

Just now, XRay said:

That is disappointing. Is it possible for NPC Streetpass teams to have Severa with blue hair and Avatar with non blue hair on the same team? That way, the only explanation for Severa's blue hair is that Cordelia's dream came true.

Kids can have any color in the rainbow. Their hair color is coded as hex values that show up in streetpass teams.

They can inherit Validar's hair color and you'd see it in a streetpass team.

But yeah Heroes is based upon the outrealms, basically non canon spinoff. A place where you can have Aqua, Olivia, and Ninian lap dance for Zephiel. Them meeting isn't in the realm of canon in the main fire emblem series. The concept of the very mobile game screams "this is just for fun".

[XRay]

5 minutes ago, shadowofchaos said:

Kids can have any color in the rainbow. Their hair color is coded as hex values that show up in streetpass teams.

They can inherit Validar's hair color and you'd see it in a streetpass team.

But yeah Heroes is based upon the outrealms, basically non canon spinoff. A place where you can have Aqua, Olivia, and Ninian lap dance for Zephiel. Them meeting isn't in the realm of canon in the main fire emblem series. The concept of the very mobile game screams "this is just for fun".

That sounds like a lot of infidelity going on for NPC teams.

I like that. Grima must have told Validar to get busy and prepare for Plan B just in case Robin does not work out.

So pretty much the only thing that is guaranteed canon for you are the main series' in game animated movies, since those cannot be changed no matter who dies or lives.

 

[Ice Dragon]

6 minutes ago, XRay said:

That sounds like a lot of infidelity going on for NPC teams.

I like that. Grima must have told Validar to get busy and prepare for Plan B just in case Robin does not work out.

So pretty much the only thing that is guaranteed canon for you are the main series' in game animated movies, since those cannot be changed no matter who dies or lives.

For a video game, I interpret canon to be the intended result of the story flow (on a New Game+ run with all content available to the player).

This means that game overs and game-play-related character deaths are not canon, but a lot of other things are.

Roy collecting all of the divine weapons and defeating Idenn I would consider canon because that's the "true ending".

Eliwood fighting Lloyd and Linus is canon, but there is no canon order in which they are fought. I don't think there is anything contradictory to have vague facts be canon with nothing more detailed being canon. You can say something similar for random battles with the fact that "random battles were fought" canonically but with no canonical moment in time, location in space, or opponent.

The events of Hasha no Tsurugi are not canon within the universe of FE6, but are canon within the universe of Hasha no Tsurugi. The scope of the universe we are in also matters. By extension, fanfics can by all means be canon (but doesn't have to be) within the fanfic's author's universe, but are not canon in the universe of the original work (which is the one that matters when you talk about something being canon or not; arguing that the events of the fanfic are canon within the universe of the fanfic is a "no shit, Sherlock, but that's not fucking relevant").

Side story chapters are a gray area, but I don't think they are automatically not canon. The side story chapters of FE6, for example, are a prerequisite to the "true ending", but the side story chapters of FE11 depend on a lot of your units dying, which is decidedly not canon (that said, I don't recall if there was a story reason why the side story chapters of FE11 were only playable if you didn't have enough characters in your army; if there wasn't a story reason, I don't see why they couldn't coexist with the unambiguously canon story of not letting your characters die).

[Bartozio]

26 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Side story chapters are a gray area, but I don't think they are automatically not canon. The side story chapters of FE6, for example, are a prerequisite to the "true ending", but the side story chapters of FE11 depend on a lot of your units dying, which is decidedly not canon (that said, I don't recall if there was a story reason why the side story chapters of FE11 were only playable if you didn't have enough characters in your army; if there wasn't a story reason, I don't see why they couldn't coexist with the unambiguously canon story of not letting your characters die).

Considering the way FE12 handles the characters you would recruit in those side stories, I'd say they're canon, but nobody dying is also canon (cause everyone appears in the game, very much alive). Marth talks to most of those units like he knows them after all.

I'm not sure true endings are always a good indicator of what is canon though. You could use that to argue that Eliwood x Ninian is canon for example, because their support actually alters the ending of the game, but I don't think IS considers it canon.

[Ice Dragon]

2 minutes ago, Bartozio said:

I'm not sure true endings are always a good indicator of what is canon though. You could use that to argue that Eliwood x Ninian is canon for example, because their support actually alters the ending of the game, but I don't think IS considers it canon.

The Eliwood × Ninian pairing doesn't alter the ending anywhere near as much as, say, the Idenn ending in FE6. Roy still gets born, Eliwood's wife still dies. Whether or not Ninian returns through the Dragon's Gate is roughly the same scale of difference as whether you fight Lloyd or Linus first in that the authors did not establish one branch as any more or less valid than another. Nothing else in the story depends on where Ninian ended up in the end. But I'll gladly take her if she didn't get paired with Eliwood.

If we got another game that exists within the FE7 canon universe and treats Ninian as if she did or didn't return through the Dragon's Gate, then we can establish a canon pairing, but as it is right now, none of Eliwood's pairings are canon.

[Sunwoo]

Wow, even in the Heroes thread you can't get away from arguments about canon and pairings.

[Bartozio]

15 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

The Eliwood × Ninian pairing doesn't alter the ending anywhere near as much as, say, the Idenn ending in FE6. Roy still gets born, Eliwood's wife still dies. Whether or not Ninian returns through the Dragon's Gate is roughly the same scale of difference as whether you fight Lloyd or Linus first in that the authors did not establish one branch as any more or less valid than another. Nothing else in the story depends on where Ninian ended up in the end.

But I'll gladly take her if she didn't get paired with Eliwood.

If we got another game that exists within the FE7 canon universe and treats Ninian as if she did or didn't return through the Dragon's Gate, then we can establish a canon pairing, but as it is right now, none of Eliwood's pairings are canon.

I don't consider any of Eliwood pairings canon, that was mostly the point (as in, if you consider unlockable ending canon, Eliwood x Ninian would be canon. They're not canon, so you can't consider unlockable endings canon in general).

On the FE6 thing, you have to consider that it isn't a prequel, so changes to the ending can be bigger. There's no real reason why the "bad ending" couldn't have happened. There's no sequel that invalidates it, and it's not really a bad ending (the main characters still have a happy life). The "True ending" fits the story slightly better (Idun and Brunia don't just dissapear, more explantion about the Scouring, etc.), but that alone doesn't make it canon.

The Eliwood x Ninian ending gives a reason why Eliwood's wife will die, and the game does slightly hint towards the two having feeling for each other (well, mostly Ninian towards Eliwood, but still). Because of that, it also fits the story slightly better then any other pairing for Eliwood, but it doesn't mean those other pairing don't make any sense or that Eliwood x Ninian is canon.

My main point being that it's very difficult to consider something canon when the creator hasn't explicitly stated it to be canon (for instance things that can't be altered in the game or that get confirmed to be true in a sequel).

[shadowofchaos]

Here's my question... how in the hell did we even arrive at this discussion (which I've been tired of hearing of for YEARS now) over a mobile game that is *CLEARLY* non-canon?

[Sunwoo]

2 minutes ago, shadowofchaos said:

Here's my question... how in the hell did we even arrive at this discussion (which I've been tired of hearing of for YEARS now) over a mobile game that is *CLEARLY* non-canon?

Because even in a non-canon mobile game shippers gonna be obsessed.

[Bartozio]

5 minutes ago, shadowofchaos said:

Here's my question... how in the hell did we even arrive at this discussion (which I've been tired of hearing of for YEARS now) over a mobile game that is *CLEARLY* non-canon?

Well, if you have a game that brings all games toghether (even in a non-canon way), discussions about all the games could result (I also find it funny you ask this question when you are one the people who somewhat started it).

[shadowofchaos]

Just now, Bartozio said:

(I also find it funny you ask this question when you are one the people who somewhat started it).

I was a person that stressed the non-importance of it after it was already under way.

[Bartozio]

5 minutes ago, shadowofchaos said:

I was a person that stressed the non-importance of it after it was already under way.

Giving arguments for a certain opinion in a matter and then saying it doesn't really matter can still start a discussion though.

Under way is a big word, but I'll admit you didn't start the topic of what is canon and what isn't.

[Ice Dragon]

32 minutes ago, Bartozio said:

My main point being that it's very difficult to consider something canon when the creator hasn't explicitly stated it to be canon (for instance things that can't be altered in the game or that get confirmed to be true in a sequel).

While the author has not explicitly stated something to be canon, it's still possible to make educated guesses at the author's intent. We have brains of our own and don't absolutely require the Word of God to tell us what is and isn't intended to be canon.

The fact that the Idenn arc of FE6 is of non-trivial length and brings an actual closure to the story (after all, as you said, Idenn and Brunnya don't magically disappear if you failed to collect all of the divine weapons) is substantial evidence for this story arc to be the intended ending to the story.

The existence of a "bad end" (or even a "good end") isn't sufficient evidence that the "true end" is not the intended ending (for one, it's not called a "true end" for nothing). After all, longer visual novels and similar games (I'm thinking Fate/Stay Night in particular right now as well as choose-your-own-adventure books) have multitudes of bad ends, some of which have a non-trivial amount of story between the choice that dooms you and the dead end. In essence, a bad end is simply a more glorified version of a character death: The player fucked up and did something wrong, but that isn't the intended path the story was supposed to follow. (For choose-your-own-adventure books, there usually isn't a canon story because they simply aren't intended to tell a single story, but there are usually still short-circuit choices near the start of the story that end it almost immediately, even before a plot really builds up, and those can be argued to be not-canon choices along the same vein.)

 

28 minutes ago, shadowofchaos said:

Here's my question... how in the hell did we even arrive at this discussion (which I've been tired of hearing of for YEARS now) over a mobile game that is *CLEARLY* non-canon?

I like arguing. It hones my argumentation and writing skills. And gives me an excuse to write essays that would probably have been amazing had they been written when I was still in high school.

Edited July 19, 2017 by Ice Dragon

[Sunwoo]

I like having discussions, but I've learned the hard way that there aren't many people worth having discussions with on the Internet because everyone is convinced they're right or all they care about is being right.

Naturally, this is why I play mafia on SF.

[Bartozio]

3 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

While the author has not explicitly stated something to be canon, it's still possible to make educated guesses at the author's intent. We have brains of our own and don't absolutely require the Word of God to tell us what is and isn't intended to be canon.

The fact that the Idenn arc of FE6 is of non-trivial length and brings an actual closure to the story (after all, as you said, Idenn and Brunnya don't magically disappear if you failed to collect all of the divine weapons) is substantial evidence for this story arc to be the intended ending to the story.

The existence of a "bad end" (or even a "good end") isn't sufficient evidence that the "true end" is not the intended ending (for one, it's not called a "true end" for nothing). After all, longer visual novels and similar games (I'm thinking Fate/Stay Night in particular right now as well as choose-your-own-adventure books) have multitudes of bad ends, some of which have a non-trivial amount of story between the choice that dooms you and the dead end. In essence, a bad end is simply a more glorified version of a character death: The player fucked up and did something wrong, but that isn't the intended path the story was supposed to follow. (For choose-your-own-adventure books, there usually isn't a canon story because they simply aren't intended to tell a single story, but there are usually still short-circuit choices near the start of the story that end it almost immediately, even before a plot really builds up, and those can be argued to be not-canon choices along the same vein.)

The problem I have with making educated guesses (or at least referring to those guesses as canon) is that other people will come up with different answers.

For instance, most people will agree that the Idenn arc is the true canon ending of FE6, because it fits the story better. However, the Eliwood x Ninian ending also fits the story better, but is not consider canon by a lot of people. Granted, the degree to which they fit better is different, but the game does seem to favour the Eliwood x Ninian pairing over other ones. Thus, following your logic, shouldn't it also be considered canon?

I'm perfectly fine with people guessing what the creator considered the true ending and thinking of that as the real ending, but that doesn't make that guess canon. The creator might not have considered a specific ending the true ending and the fact that one fits the story better is just a coincidence, or those guesses could be plain wrong and the creator considers a different ending the real one.

[Ice Dragon]

6 minutes ago, Bartozio said:

The problem I have with making educated guesses (or at least referring to those guesses as canon) is that other people will come up with different answers.

And in that case, it's important that people be able to defend their opinions. (That's what persuasive writing exists for.)

If we had to rely on Word of God for literally everything, we'd have some problems because the relevant gods are rather not particularly responsive.

 

9 minutes ago, Bartozio said:

For instance, most people will agree that the Idenn arc is the true canon ending of FE6, because it fits the story better. However, the Eliwood x Ninian ending also fits the story better, but is not consider canon by a lot of people. Granted, the degree to which they fit better is different, but the game does seem to favour the Eliwood x Ninian pairing over other ones. Thus, following your logic, shouldn't it also be considered canon?

It's not simply that it "fits the story better", the Idenn arc brings closure to the story. It ties up the remaining loose ends because Idenn and Brunnya canonically exist and don't simply vanish into thin air if you fail to unlock the arc. Completing the game without completing the Idenn arc can be considered to be a mistake or failure made by the player, a game over with a pat on the back for doing "good enough", and I believe that to have been the intent of the authors.

In contrast, the Eliwood × Ninian ending is entirely inconsequential in comparison. In particular, all of the alternatives are fully plausible, and the choice simply does not come with a significant impact of any sort. Rebecca × Lowen has a paired ending, but that doesn't make their support relationship any more or less canon than Rebecca × Raven. Eliwood × Ninian has a paired ending that bleeds a bit into the dialogue of the Epilogue because there was no way to have that ending without it doing so. While the pairing is certainly favored by the game's writing, there's not enough circumstantial evidence to say that it is the single "real" branch and denies all other branches of that title.

 

9 minutes ago, Bartozio said:

I'm perfectly fine with people guessing what the creator considered the true ending and thinking of that as the real ending, but that doesn't make that guess canon. The creator might not have considered a specific ending the true ending and the fact that one fits the story better is just a coincidence, or those guesses could be plain wrong and the creator considers a different ending the real one.

I believe that a "real" canon exists whether or not the fan base can agree on it because the authors had to have had some idea which, if any, of their story paths is the intended path that the story follows. In the context of Fire Emblem, every game over is obviously a story path that the story is not intended to follow and is decidedly not canon.

Unless the gods respond, the best we can do is guess at this "real canon", and that's just the reality of it. Gather evidence to support your stance and make your argument.

[XRay]

I think I started or escalated the waifu canon wars. Anyways, we cannot really prove with certainty whether something is canon outside of animated movie cut scenes and events that do not change no matter what decision the player makes.

It can be argued that Revelations has the most desirable ending, but we do not really know if it is the canon ending. The last major DLC with the kids focuses on the endings of Birthright and Conquest. The only DLC that has the Revelations ending is Battle Royale I think, where the Rainbow Sage tells the alternate siblings to help you out by sending you Ebon Wings and Dread Fighter Scrolls.

[r_n]

22 minutes ago, XRay said:

I think I started or escalated the waifu canon wars. Anyways, we cannot really prove with certainty whether something is canon outside of animated movie cut scenes and events that do not change no matter what decision the player makes.

It can be argued that Revelations has the most desirable ending, but we do not really know if it is the canon ending. The last major DLC with the kids focuses on the endings of Birthright and Conquest. The only DLC that has the Revelations ending is Battle Royale I think, where the Rainbow Sage tells the alternate siblings to help you out by sending you Ebon Wings and Dread Fighter Scrolls.

The Kids dlc also I think does play off Revelation in addition to Birthright & Conquest. But in a version of it where everything went bad. Shigure is from that timeline/dimension. The DLC is a bit of an odd duck in general since iirc

One of the reveals is that every kid isn't just from their respective game, they're EACH from a different timeline where they were the only survivor?

[XRay]

Spoiler

Do we need a spoiler for a game that is over a year old?

18 minutes ago, r_n said:

One of the reveals is that every kid isn't just from their respective game, they're EACH from a different timeline where they were the only survivor?

Wow. That is even sadder than I remembered. I remember the first part but not the second part. So each kid basically had their entire family and group of friends slaughtered.

At least the kids in the Future Past had each other. Both are still tearjerkers though.

 

Edited July 20, 2017 by XRay

[bethany81707]

...Can we all agree that Fae is adorable, and the fact I could find no plush of her dragon form is a missed opportunity?

[XRay]

2 minutes ago, phineas81707 said:

...Can we all agree that Fae is adorable, and the fact I could find no plush of her dragon form is a missed opportunity?

It is one of those moments when you want corporations to be greedy, but for some reason they chose not to. I want a ninja Elise action figure, but they chose not to make her.

[GuiltyLove]

I want a picture of Fae in her dragon chicken form wearing the hat that the female protagonist in Pokemon S/M wears. It will be a chicken wearing a chicken hat

[SatsumaFSoysoy]

Cordelia's figma is too expensive...