Fire Emblem Heroes General Discussion and Links

[Hilda]

2 minutes ago, Xenomata said:

@Hilda

And you are saying BRAVE WEAPONS don't need the refine?

I havent said that, maybe i wasnt clear enough. The potential of gamebreaking stuff refined Brave weapons can impose are too great when you have such skills as Bold Fighter, Brave Lyn being able to use them.

I wouldnt mind a brave weapon refine, some units definitly need all the help they can get and could benefit from it, but the potential of basicly breaking the game due to stupidity skills like bold fighter or units like Brave Lyn is just insane.

I mean you just have too look how oppressiv Reinhardt is with his Dire thunder still to this day actually.

I am a person that likes to run personal weapons and I dont use litrblades unless its a personal weapon, or there really isnt another option. You are basicly forced to use Litrblade outside of PVE (as in PVP) because of all the distant counter/adjusted breath dmg crap. its either kill the oponnent in one hit or 2 or be rekt. Thats a basic game design flaw. Litrblade shouldnt have existed in the first place, but nowadays its almost the only option for Mages with non strong personal weapons to even survive a battle most of the time if they initiate.

[redlight]

1 hour ago, Cute Chao said:

Seth could really use a Firesweep Sword from you by the sounds of it! 

Ruby Sword with Def Tactics refine ?
I kinda wish they'd analyze what builds are popular on units. They should have data on the weapon used most for each individual unit. Even then, they should have the foresight to make good weapons for already existing units. Sure, experimental weapons like Saggitae aren't all that great, but as long as they play around with stuff they know works rather than guessing "this'll be good", we can expect some quality stuff

1 hour ago, Hilda said:

like Raventomes, Owltomes and Litrblades?

Braveweapons just shouldnt be touched due to Bold Fighter. Brave weapons could break the game just because of this if handled wrong.

Oh boy. Raventomes need a refine so bad. Giving a boost like "negate the effect of colorless weapons" would be rather justified to curbstomp the poor skill/weapon design decisions IS makes. Owltomes are actually underrated. Bulky units with decent mixed bulk make good use of it, especially Leo, Henry (surprise, he's not as bad as some tierlists would like people to think) and Sophia. There are others, but red has some of the better red mages for mixed bulk. Litrblades getting a refine... I'm assuming you're coming from the perspective of Odin and Olwen getting superior versions of the tome, but it's really that busted not to deserve getting refines. Apologies if that's not the case

Edited December 5, 2018 by silveraura25

[Hilda]

10 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Litrowl already has refines.

Litrblade does not need refines.

 

A Bold Fighter Brave weapon user needs Armor March support.

Litrblade on a non-infantry unit only needs a single ally with a movement-type Hone. Litrblade on an infantry unit can use a Link or a dual Rally+.

Armor March is neutralized by Gravity in the same way that Litrblade is neutralized by Panic.

 

1. Gravity is usable by one specific class only as opposed by panic ploy being usable across the board. So that point is kinda moot. There is more counters to Litrblade available (even as a Sacred Seal) then there is to bold fighter brave weapons.
There is also dull ranged to counter Litrblade perfectly.

2. Litrblade on an Infantry unit means another unit gave up their turn and their B-Slot skill!!!!, which are 2 detrimental factor again. I agree on the point of non infantry users.

3. Armor march support vs. 2 unit support (horsies) or 3 unit support (tactic skills) or 1 unit support but that unit giving up their turn.
Yeah that seems totally on par with each other...

[Xenomata]

10 minutes ago, Hilda said:

The potential of gamebreaking stuff refined Brave weapons can impose are too great when you have such skills as Bold Fighter, Brave Lyn being able to use them.

Maybe the combination of being tired but high on b-day energy is not a good combo for thinking logically...

We've seen what a refine for Brave Weapons looks like though, via Cherche's Axe. And Ranged refines are weaker than melee refines, so Brave Lyn can only get 2 extra speed off a forged Brave Bow. Even if she went for an Atk refine... what would that even look like on a Brave Bow, +0.5 might?

I mean, 2 Spd is 2 spd no matter how you try to justify it, but it's still just 2 Spd.

2 minutes ago, Hilda said:

1. Gravity is usable by one specific class only as opposed by panic ploy being usable across the board. So that point is kinda moot. There is more counters to Litrblade available (even as a Sacred Seal) then there is to bold fighter brave weapons.
There is also dull ranged to counter Litrblade perfectly.

2. Litrblade on an Infantry unit means another unit gave up their turn and their B-Slot skill!!!!, which are 2 detrimental factor again. I agree on the point of non infantry users.

3. Armor march support vs. 2 unit support (horsies) or 3 unit support (tactic skills) or 1 unit support but that unit giving up their turn.
Yeah that seems totally on par with each other...

~Panic Ploy, which usable across the board, is limited to use by Armor units and really HP bulky units due to the HP requirement. In fairness most Bladetomers fall under the HP req by a mile, but Panic Ploy still requires line of sight to trigger, which can be really easy to counter with AI manipulation.

Also wanna point out that, at least in 19.5, I haven't seen Dull Ranged on any PvP opponents even once.

~Units like Titania and Eirika exist for a reason: they are the best Field Buff providers and still remain viable on their own. A Bladetome doesn't necessarily even need +6/6/6/6 to be the best, often just 4/4/0/4 is good enough to get the job done. And really, I don't see the issue in giving up a units turn to help another unit retreat...

~The best counter to Armor March is often just letting the AI do it's thing. I've had more than one fight where the enemy clearly has Armor March advantage, but then proceeds to separate and lose that one advantage. Often, there's no real way to know if you need a counter to Field Buffs or not. Panic Ploy is not guaranteed to always be needed, and most weapons that inflict Panic status are often overshadowed by more offensive weaponry (see Legion's Axe vs Slaying Axe). And it doesn't help that it feels like the AI knows how to team up for keeping Field Buffs up better than it knows how to keep Armor March status up...

Also... what do you think a Dancer is, exactly?

[Astellius]

Sure enough, my words to @Vaximillian were true:

On 9/29/2018 at 4:03 PM, Astellius said:

My Palla is actually still using her native Ruby Sword at the moment, as I feel like the moment I promote someone to give her something better, they're going to come out and announce her personal weapon. In fact, that's probably what they're waiting for. They're probably just sitting around with a fully developed weapon for her, watching my account for the right moment, just to laugh as the 20k feathers I'm going to invest in her weapon becomes meaningless!

I finally decided to give my Palla a Slaying Edge+ a couple weeks ago, and, lo, now IS has announced the weapon upgrades for the Whitewings...! Yes, you all can thank me for finally upgrading my Palla's weapon. It was the moment they were waiting for. Here's my Palla in her current glory:

Spoiler

But I'm excited for this! I'm hoping the Whitewing weapons are quite good.

[DehNutCase]

46 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

A Bold Fighter Brave weapon user needs Armor March support.

The reason I rate ranged armors a lot higher than melees is that they don't need armor march, though. Halloween Jakob doesn't mind running Bold Fighter Armored Boots with Brave Bow, and a 1 move 2 range unit hurts, but it's not exactly unplayable.

He has huge sustain issues, of course, but it's a lot easier to play around armored boots or just being 1 move 2-range than play around being an melee armor.

[Ice Dragon]

40 minutes ago, Hilda said:

Gravity is usable by one specific class only

Gravity is usable by all characters in the best support class in the game. The class so strong, it doesn't even need stats to function.

The recent addition of C Duel Infantry and stronger Special skills has also largely alleviated the difference in Arena scoring potential that infantry staff users previously had. Loki, for example, when maxed out, scores a mere 2.5 points less per match than a maxed out Surtr and has a far more functional kit when maxed out.

 

40 minutes ago, Hilda said:

panic ploy being usable across the board

Panic Ploy may be usable by all units, but it's only functional on units with high HP and forgoes the use of more consistently useful C-slot skills and Sacred Seals.

 

40 minutes ago, Hilda said:

There is also dull ranged to counter Litrblade perfectly.

The B slot is one of the most competitive skill slots in the game. Running Dull Ranged requires you to pass up a huge number of more practical skills.

 

40 minutes ago, Hilda said:

Litrblade on an Infantry unit means another unit gave up their turn and their B-Slot skill!!!!, which are 2 detrimental factor again.

Giving up a turn is typically cheap for infantry since you're usually picking off enemies one by one instead of charging in for a sweep due to their low movement range.

Litrblade users are actually one of the few units that have a free B slot to run a Link skill since, in the current meta, they are generally intended to kill in a single hit.

 

40 minutes ago, Hilda said:

Armor march support vs. 2 unit support (horsies) or 3 unit support (tactic skills) or 1 unit support but that unit giving up their turn.

You don't need +6/6/6/6 for Litrblade to function, and the number of units needed to provide support is (1) irrelevant for buffs available at 2 range and (2) irrelevant because they typically are already part of your team composition and provide the same support to all other members of the team.

Needing a cookie-cutter team support archetype (single movement-type buffs, Tactic, Ward/Drive stack, etc.) is not a detriment. That's literally just Teambuilding 101.

Edited December 5, 2018 by Ice Dragon

[Othin]

1 hour ago, Hilda said:

like Raventomes, Owltomes and Litrblades?

Braveweapons just shouldnt be touched due to Bold Fighter. Brave weapons could break the game just because of this if handled wrong.

 

Raven tomes and gem weapons are the big two I have in mind, but I think brave weapons would also be appropriate. I don't think +5 HP and +1 Atk would put them over the top. Poison Dagger could also use a refinement.

I think blade weapons are the only ones left, and they are outclassed by Thunderhead and especially Odin's Grimoire. I don't think they need it, but I don't think it'd be unreasonable either.

[Ice Dragon]

2 minutes ago, Othin said:

I think blade weapons are the only ones left, and they are outclassed by Thunderhead and especially Odin's Grimoire.

That's like saying that refined Slaying weapons need a second refine slot because Dauntless Lance, Golden Dagger, and Hauteclere outclass them by miles.

[Hilda]

32 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Gravity is usable by all characters in the best support class in the game. The class so strong, it doesn't even need stats to function.

The recent addition of C Duel Infantry and stronger Special skills has also largely alleviated the difference in Arena scoring potential that infantry staff users previously had. Loki, for example, when maxed out, scores a mere 2.5 points less per match than a maxed out Surtr and has a far more functional kit when maxed out. 101.

What about the other healers that dont have a legendary weapon?

Quote

Panic Ploy may be usable by all units, but it's only functional on units with high HP and forgoes the use of more consistently useful C-slot skills and Sacred Seals.

Mages barely scratch the 40 HP mark and melees are usually way above that mark so they can apply Panic Ploy in 80% if not 90% of the cases. So moot point. A Team of Litre blade also sacrifices their C-Slots for the buffs. So again moot point.

Quote

The B slot is one of the most competitive skill slots in the game. Running Dull Ranged requires you to pass up a huge number of more practical skills.

 

Giving up a turn is typically cheap for infantry since you're usually picking off enemies one by one instead of charging in for a sweep due to their low movement range.

Litrblade users are actually one of the few units that have a free B slot to run a Link skill since, in the current meta, they are generally intended to kill in a single hit

But running Link skills is totally fine for buffing Litrblade units? another unit has given up their B-Slot too and their turn to actually activate that skill!

Giving up a turn is NOT cheap, you cant tell that to anyone. Or would you be ok if Armorers would need to give up a turn to activate Armor march or Bold Fighter for another unit?

Quote

You don't need +6/6/6/6 for Litrblade to function, and the number of units needed to provide support is (1) irrelevant for buffs available at 2 range and (2) irrelevant because they typically are already part of your team composition and provide the same support to all other members of the team.

Needing a cookie-cutter team support archetype (single movement-type buffs, Tactic, Ward/Drive stack, etc.) is not a detriment. That's literally just Teambuilding 101.

The number of units required for buffing a Litrblade is actually quite a substantial part, because those unit could run something different in the C-Slot or B-Slot. Its a huge difference if a unit needs to have 3, 2 or 1 allies to function very good as opposed to a single unit just slapping on a Seal or have 1 ally provide Armor March... Thats also Teambuilding 101.
You want to tell me that Odin doesnt need 6/6/6/6 to actually have kill power? or Boey or any other low atk mage?

 

[DehNutCase]

27 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

That's like saying that refined Slaying weapons need a second refine slot because Dauntless Lance, Golden Dagger, and Hauteclere outclass them by miles.

A second tier of generic refines would be pretty nice, honestly.

Generics don't need to be as strong as Prfs but they should be at least be in contention so that refine stones aren't just dew you need to click a few extra buttons for, which they pretty much feel like right now. (They're nice for... staves, and that's because we don't have a lot of staff Prfs, not because generic staves are especially good compared to Prf staves.)

Edited December 5, 2018 by DehNutCase

[Ice Dragon]

1 minute ago, Hilda said:

What about the other healers that dont have a legendary weapon?

Oh, no. They score only 3 points less than Surtr per match. What ever will we do?

 

2 minutes ago, Hilda said:

Mages barely scratch the 40 HP mark and melees are usually way above that mark so they can apply Panic Ploy in 80% if not 90% of the cases. So moot point.

And have a non-functional C skill against all other units.

 

3 minutes ago, Hilda said:

A Team of Litre blade also sacrifices their C-Slots for the buffs. So again moot point.

Using C-slot skills for buffs is the norm, not the exception.

 

4 minutes ago, Hilda said:

But running Link skills is totally fine for buffing Litrblade units? another unit has given up their B-Slot too and their turn to actually activate that skill!

Only one unit needs to use Link. You don't need +6/6/6/6 when +6/6 or +6/0/6 is typically sufficient, and that doesn't even count the passive buffs that your team is already running.

And Litrblade units typically don't have competition for their B slot skill. Killing the opponent in one hit means Desperation, Guard, Null Follow-Up, and whatnot are pointless on many builds. Chill skills can be run by any unit on the team and have the exact same effect.

 

7 minutes ago, Hilda said:

Giving up a turn is NOT cheap, you cant tell that to anyone. Or would you be ok if Armorers would need to give up a turn to activate Armor march or Bold Fighter for another unit?

Yes, I would be okay.

I used to run Rally Def/Res on all of my armors in the Arena back when it was necessary for scoring, and had more than enough actions on each turn to both buff and move.

 

9 minutes ago, Hilda said:

The number of units required for buffing a Litrblade is actually quite a substantial part, because those unit could run something different in the C-Slot or B-Slot. Its a huge difference if a unit needs to have 3, 2 or 1 allies to function very good as opposed to a single unit just slapping on a Seal or have 1 ally provide Armor March... Thats also Teambuilding 101.

No, it isn't. A horse team is already running either 2 Hone + 2 Fortify or 4 Hone. Same with a tome flier team. Mixed teams already run Tactic or Drive. None of those require going out of your way to get a skill you wouldn't be able to make use of more generally.

 

17 minutes ago, Hilda said:

You want to tell me that Odin doesnt need 6/6/6/6 to actually have kill power? or Boey or any other low atk mage?

Odin already has two of his buffs built into his weapon, so getting +6/6/6/6 is as trivial as +6/6 to any other unit.

Boey is more suited for running Gronnowl with Bonfire to make up for his damage output. Using a sub-optimal weapon for a certain stat spread is necessarily accompanied by a greater need for support from the team to reach comparable performance to units with more synergistic stat spreads. That's not a problem with the weapon. All weapons have stat spreads that they are less compatible with.

[Rezzy]

Yay, Est gets a refine.

Even if it isn't that great, it will help her for Arena score, since I use her on my core team.

[DehNutCase]

Ah, yes, Arena Score.

(That feeling when the only units you rate highly are mages and dancers, pepehands. And the unit you rate highest is a mage dancer, (Flying Ninian), lul.)

 

I am looking forward to Robin's refines, though. They're gen 1 so hopefully IS feels safe giving them some slightly pushed Prfs.

[daisy jane]

3 hours ago, Astellius said:

Sure enough, my words to @Vaximillian were true:

I finally decided to give my Palla a Slaying Edge+ a couple weeks ago, and, lo, now IS has announced the weapon upgrades for the Whitewings...! Yes, you all can thank me for finally upgrading my Palla's weapon. It was the moment they were waiting for. Here's my Palla in her current glory:

  Hide contents

But I'm excited for this! I'm hoping the Whitewing weapons are quite good.

ooh exciting!
I don't get a lot of pallas. i'm hoping i can get some in my next summoning, and i can get on this. :) 

[XRay]

44 minutes ago, Hilda said:

The number of units required for buffing a Litrblade is actually quite a substantial part, because those unit could run something different in the C-Slot or B-Slot. Its a huge difference if a unit needs to have 3, 2 or 1 allies to function very good as opposed to a single unit just slapping on a Seal or have 1 ally provide Armor March... Thats also Teambuilding 101.
You want to tell me that Odin doesnt need 6/6/6/6 to actually have kill power? or Boey or any other low atk mage?

Ranged Player Phase nukes really only need one support unit: Dancers/Singers.

Dancers/Singers with dual Hones are all nukes need, or just Hone Atk if the Player Phase nuke is a one shot or Brave nuke. Desperation Blade mages really only need 4/4/0/0; any more than that is just icing on the cake.

If a player has the resources and is running a ranged Player Phase team, in my opinion, the main nuke should always be a Firesweep nuke to cover all types of Enemy Phase units. All other types of nukes are just there to speed up the battle, and their performance honestly does not really matter too much as long as they have a higher damage output than the Firesweep nuke.

1 hour ago, Ice Dragon said:

And Litrblade units typically don't have competition for their B slot skill. Killing the opponent in one hit means Desperation, Guard, Null Follow-Up, and whatnot are pointless on many builds. Chill skills can be run by any unit on the team and have the exact same effect.

That kind of depends on the player's team composition and what enemies the player need the Blade mage to fight. One shot Blade mages are not very reliable against super bulky teams unless the nuke is fully buffed. In these cases, it is just easier to rely on Desperation with partial buffs and step on a Bolt Trap.

[Ice Dragon]

1 minute ago, XRay said:

That kind of depends on the player's team composition and what enemies the player need the Blade mage to fight. One shot Blade mages are not very reliable against super bulky teams unless the nuke is fully buffed. In these cases, it is just easier to rely on Desperation with partial buffs and step on a Bolt Trap.

As you already mentioned, Litrblade units that use Desperation don't need Link skills in the first place because they function fine with regular Hone skills.

Either you are building for one-hit kills and don't need the B slot at all (and therefore have no competition for the slot to go to a Link skill) or you are building for two-hit kills and run Desperation and don't need the huge buffs that a one-hit-kill build needs.

[XRay]

10 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Either you are building for one-hit kills and don't need the B slot at all (and therefore have no competition for the slot to go to a Link skill) or you are building for two-hit kills and run Desperation and don't need the huge buffs that a one-hit-kill build needs.

Ah, okay. Thought you meant Desperation Blade mages are unnecessary when one hit Blade mages exist.

[Vaximillian]

I want the silvers to get a Guard refine. Otherwise, they are completely useless.

(inb4 hurr durr vaxi, Halloween weapons exist)

[Othin]

5 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

That's like saying that refined Slaying weapons need a second refine slot because Dauntless Lance, Golden Dagger, and Hauteclere outclass them by miles.

I think it's silly for a weapon to not get a refinement while having a strictly better counterpart that does. Not quite the same situation.

Admittedly, that does disqualify Thunderhead from relevance.

[Ice Dragon]

26 minutes ago, Othin said:

I think it's silly for a weapon to not get a refinement while having a strictly better counterpart that does. Not quite the same situation.

Admittedly, that does disqualify Thunderhead from relevance.

I think it's silly to look at "whether or not a weapon has a refinement" instead of "what the weapon's effects actually are".

Berserk Armads has no refinement because it is already far stronger than any other weapon that exists (excluding the Litrblades and tome Missiletainn), refined or not. Even if another weapon is later implemented with the Killer effect as its base effect and Wrath 3 and HP +3 as its unique refine effect, thus making it "strictly better than Berserk Armads", Berserk Armads does not deserve a refinement of its own.

 

Furthermore, it's also silly to consider character-restricted weapons separately from the character(s) they are restricted to.

Odin's Grimoire is allowed to be a much stronger version of Blarblade because the character it is locked to has such a poor stat spread, meaning the weapon needs to have a strong additional effect to make up the difference.

This is similar to cases like Fir, Karel, Shanna, Minerva, and Michalis receiving Hauteclere and Raven, Linus, and Lon'qu receiving Basilikos, both of which are significantly stronger than the other weapons they compete with on those characters. Characters that are "below the curve" have every right to have weapons much stronger than inheritable weapons to better compete with other characters.

Enemies are fought with units — stats, weapons, skills, and all — not with disembodied weapons.

Edited December 6, 2018 by Ice Dragon

[redlight]

1 hour ago, Vaximillian said:

I want the silvers to get a Guard refine. Otherwise, they are completely useless.

(inb4 hurr durr vaxi, Halloween weapons exist)

How about +2 to all stats like Corrin's Yato? No wait, some seasonal weapons do that.... Hmmm. Indeed a pickle, perhaps guard, yeah. Maybe effective damage against beast units?

Bladetomes without a CD penalty is a bigger deal some people think. Unfortunately Olwen doesn't have the bulk to take a hit. Odin has right to have such a weapon because he was the worst unit in the game. What he got was enough to skyrocket him into becoming one of the best blue mages in the 3-4 star pool. His bulk does wonders for him in arena along with what is essentially a bladetome with QP. The link skill is a cherry on top of that

[mampfoid]

Oh nice, a free neutral Olivia. I regretted long ago to not have kept a neutral version of her. 

[Garlyle]

I want to hear your excitement of getting a 20th copy of female Corrin, Azama and OG Olivia for free.

 

Spoiler

Because apparently everyone needs free copies of Fatesawakening characters from the original 3-4* pool.

 

[Vaximillian]

2 minutes ago, Garlyle said:

I want to hear your excitement of getting a 20th copy of female Corrin, Azama and OG Olivia for free.

Corrin is Hone Atk and Draconic Aura.
Azama is Pain and Martyr.
Olivia is a neutral-natured dancer and thus useful for following guides in case you got rid of your first free one.

I don’t see the reason for being so upset. Three Heroes quests have always rewarded from the original release pool.