Fire Emblem Heroes General Discussion and Links

[Vince777]

20 minutes ago, XRay said:

He is half naked making manly poses, which is not much different from girls being in bikini making feminine poses.

Yeah I don't think Hawkeye is much objectified. If at least not for women. Neither was Arnold in Conan despite the fact that he basically wore nothing.
You need someone to be objectified to and women will generally care more about characters with traits other than a monstrously huge action figurine physique.

He's a pretty bad example. 

Tastes vary, of course, but I feel a character like summer Takumi or summer Gaius would probably be much better examples. 

[bottlegnomes]

@Johann I think a perfect example for your comparison would be Cecilia and Christmas Cecilia. Normal is in a similar vein to Titania, both of whom are just gorgeous. Christmas is equally attractive (same person so a bit of a duh), but has a convenient boob window with framing and everything and went up about 3 cup sizes.

@Ice Dragon & @XRay Does Hawkeye say "fuck me" or "I'm a badass who lives in a desert"?

[XRay]

2 minutes ago, Johann said:

Let's try this: Who do you think he is designed to appeal to, and can you ask those people what they think about him?

I think he is designed to appeal to female players? Although I do not remember anyone here swooning over his abs.

I know @Anacybele likes Frederick, especially YS!Frederick's abs, so that is the closest thing that comes to mind, so maybe she can provide some input?

5 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

The question I was expecting to be answered (and @XRay can tell me if I'm wrong) was "What do you have to do to a male character to make it count as male objectification?"

Yeah, that too. There are differences in standards for objectification, but it feels kind of extreme to say that a man being half naked is more objectifying than a woman wearing more revealing clothing.

[Vince777]

2 minutes ago, bottlegnomes said:

 but has a convenient boob window with framing and everything and went up about 3 cup sizes.

 

I'm not sure what makes you say Cecilia wasn't naturally busty in her original art. 

It wouldn't really show under the armour. 

[Ice Dragon]

4 minutes ago, bottlegnomes said:

Does Hawkeye say "fuck me" or "I'm a badass who lives in a desert"?

I don't know and that is exactly why I am asking.

I have a general idea of what does and doesn't count as objectification of women. I have zero idea of what does count as objectification of men, but what I do know of what doesn't count as objectification of men implies to me that the bar to count is higher for men than for women.

This is why I want to know where other people think the line is to count as objectification for men.

[XRay]

27 minutes ago, Vince777 said:

Yeah I don't think Hawkeye is much objectified. If at least not for women. Neither was Arnold in Conan despite the fact that he basically wore nothing.
You need someone to be objectified to and women will generally care more about characters with traits other than a monstrously huge action figurine physique.

He's a pretty bad example. 

Tastes vary, of course, but I feel a character like summer Takumi or summer Gaius would probably be much better examples. 

I agree that those two would make a better comparison, but I think nudeness still qualifies as objectifying to some degree. If Hawkeye's abs do not count as objectifying then SA!Noire's bikini does not count either, since she is as just as sexually appealing to me as Sakura or Hinoka who I am not particularly attracted to either.

21 minutes ago, bottlegnomes said:

 Does Hawkeye say "fuck me" or "I'm a badass who lives in a desert"?

He seems more "I am a badass," but the only characters who even hints at "fuck me" are Aversa, Loki, Camilla, and Niles.

SF!Lucina, HATF!Sharena, HATF!Kagero, SA!Tana, etc. are all arousing, but they do not scream "Bedroom right now!" like Aversa, Loki, Camilla, and Niles does.

Edited March 6, 2019 by XRay

[bottlegnomes]

@Ice Dragon I'll see if I can find this FB post from a while back that goes over it. But basically, it's the goal in designing the character. Is the character created to be lusted after or because their design supports their character. The post in question did get a little condescending toward the end, saying that women want people while men want sexual objects, but the general gist of it was pretty good.

But as for my initial question, does his art say to you specifically this is sexually provocative or does it say it's a dude without a shirt?

For an example, Hugh Jackman on male magazines versus female magazines since both are intended to be appealing to their target audience.

Basic gist of the comparison is: Male says I can kick your ass; be more like me. Female says wouldn't it be nice to spend a night in with me? Let's watch movies and then maybe if you're up for it we can get frisky.

The problem with the whole how much skin is showing baseline is it's assuming identical standards for attraction. Those do vary from person to person, but as a whole, there are general societal trends, or stereotypes if we want to generalize a bit more. Iggy Pop and GG Alin spent an astounding amount of time sans clothes and in public, but they aren't the most common female objects of affection. Meanwhile Justin Timberlake spent most of his time in nice clothes and largely covered and he is (or at least was) a definite heartthrob.

@Vince777 Basically that they didn't. FE doesn't particularly have an issue with displaying women in armor as having large busts. If she was always intended to have a large bust, I'm certain they wouldn't have been shy about it.

@XRay I wouldn't particularly consider any of them sexualized except Kagero, but I'll defer to @Othin and @Johann about that. Kagero is because her outfit is specifically designed to draw attention to the parts of her that are sexually arousing to men. Niles is probably the most sexualized male in the game, again being designed to play up aspects that are stereotypically seen as attractive to women (whether they actually are or aren't). Odin's bulge honestly just seems like a big joke (pun intended).

Edited March 6, 2019 by bottlegnomes

[Johann]

47 minutes ago, bottlegnomes said:

@Johann I think a perfect example for your comparison would be Cecilia and Christmas Cecilia. Normal is in a similar vein to Titania, both of whom are just gorgeous. Christmas is equally attractive (same person so a bit of a duh), but has a convenient boob window with framing and everything and went up about 3 cup sizes.

Yeah that's a good point. That they add sex appeal for a character that didn't need it (and was a free unit!) was pretty disappointing.

46 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

@Johann I feel like you've completely dodged the question. The question I was expecting to be answered (and @XRay can tell me if I'm wrong) was "What do you have to do to a male character to make it count as male objectification?" However, two thirds of your post was about objectification of women, which doesn't answer the question, and the remaining one third of your post was giving examples of how men in less clothing aren't really being objectified, which also doesn't answer the question.

So, I will ask again on my own behalf:

If none of these examples of male character designs are male objectification, do you have any examples of what would count?

The reason I ask is because part of the argument appears to be going back and forth about the amount of female and male objectification that occurs in media, but if what counts as male objectification is more difficult to achieve and requires going to less socially acceptable lengths, both of which are things I believe to be true, then it would clearly make sense that there would be less of it.

I didn't dodge the question, you just didn't understand the answer. The point is that male objectification is a different animal from female objectification, and that you can't apply the same rules to both. Flipping it around is why a lot of guys assume Hawkeye is objectified when he isn't. I honestly can't think of an example of objectified male characters in FE, with the issue being that most of them are designed by and for straight men and with the issues I listed before affecting how those designs are received (even if unintentionally). Outside of FE, examples would be getting into sex games that I don't think would be appropriate for these forums. Leaning into more of the gay sexual culture (like perhaps yaoi stuff or boylesque acts) would probably get you some results if you consider that it's viewing men from the lens of men who are attracted to them.

33 minutes ago, Vince777 said:

Yeah I don't think Hawkeye is much objectified. If at least not for women. Neither was Arnold in Conan despite the fact that he basically wore nothing.
You need someone to be objectified to and women will generally care more about characters with traits other than a monstrously huge action figurine physique.

He's a pretty bad example. 

Tastes vary, of course, but I feel a character like summer Takumi or summer Gaius would probably be much better examples. 

Yeah, that's also why I linked that video since it talks about how Kratos from God of War is not objectified, contrary to what a lot of dudes seem to think. I think we had quite a few Gaius fans when that banner first appeared.

32 minutes ago, XRay said:

I think he is designed to appeal to female players? Although I do not remember anyone here swooning over his abs.

I know @Anacybele likes Frederick, especially YS!Frederick's abs, so that is the closest thing that comes to mind, so maybe she can provide some input?

Yeah, that too. There are differences in standards for objectification, but it feels kind of extreme to say that a man being half naked is more objectifying than a woman wearing more revealing clothing.

It's because giant bulky muscle guys are the kind of thing that generally men assume women like. Women who like Hawkeye are probably going to like him for reasons beyond his torso.

The male summer heroes are a bit of a special case; even though the men are exposed, it doesn't necessarily make them more attractive. I recall one gay friend preferring original Xander over Summer Xander when I showed him some of the art for the game. I know for a fact that Ana appreciates a lot more about Frederick than just his summer art, as well. Looking at everything from the perspective of "how much skin do they show" is a bad approach, because that is applying the same logic about the objectification of women and trying to apply it to men.

Consider this: If a random attractive woman, a stranger mind you, started acting very flirty and sexually suggestive towards you, how would you feel? More significantly, how do you think most men would feel? On the flip side, pretend you were a woman and the same thing happened, but it was an attractive man being sexually suggestive. How do you think most women would feel?

[bottlegnomes]

29 minutes ago, Johann said:

Kratos from God of War is not objectified

That's a thing people think? (SF doesn't have an emoji WTF enough for my reaction.)

 

29 minutes ago, Johann said:

Consider this: If a random attractive woman, a stranger mind you, started acting very flirty and sexually suggestive towards you, how would you feel? More significantly, how do you think most men would feel? On the flip side, pretend you were a woman and the same thing happened, but it was an attractive man being sexually suggestive. How do you think most women would feel?

So funny story about something like this that happened to me and gave me a new understanding for women in this scenario. I was at a gay club downtown (long story, not really, but not relevant) and ended up talking to this guy for a while and was having a very nice conversation. Like 45 minutes in, I realized I thought he might have been flirting with me, reasonable enough since, again, I was a dude at a gay club. Then one of my friends showed up and was like "OMG you should give Andrew your number" and took my phone and gave it to him. I wasn't sure he was, so I didn't want to just be like "I'm straight" since then I felt like if he wasn't he'd think I assumed any friendly gay guy was flirting with me (the whole "all gays want to fuck any guy" stereotype). But on the other hand, I didn't want to keep going because I was worried it might seem like I was interested and I didn't want to lead him on. I just kinda panicked and said I had to go to the bathroom and didn't come back. Then later I ran into him again and at that point I was too drunk to really care and he was a cool guy so I ended up talking to him and saying fuck it to the whole worrying about leading him on thing. Really gave me an understanding for the whole "she was leading me on" thing.

I still kinda feel like a dick about that.

EDIT: That story isn't so much a direct response to Johann's scenario, just a parallel that I felt might be informative for everyone that it reminded me of.

Edited March 6, 2019 by bottlegnomes

[Johann]

25 minutes ago, bottlegnomes said:

@XRay I wouldn't particularly consider any of them sexualized except Kagero, but I'll defer to @Othin and @Johann about that. Kagero is because her outfit is specifically designed to draw attention to the parts of her that are sexually arousing to men. Niles is probably the most sexualized male in the game, again being designed to play up aspects that are stereotypically seen as attractive to women (whether they actually are or aren't). Odin's bulge honestly just seems like a big joke (pun intended).

They don't have to scream "bedroom, now!" to be sexualized really, it's more like shoehorning sex appeal or some sort of fetishy thing (like Kagero's maid outfit) in a character that isn't sexual. Even regular Kagero is sexualized by virtue of her giant boobs with some deep cleave. Keep in mind also that none of these sexualized features play into the relationships these characters can develop in supports, etc. Off the top of my head, the Chrom/Female Robin supports in Awakening actually use sexual aspects of both characters without sexualizing either of them.

9 minutes ago, bottlegnomes said:

That's a thing people think? (SF doesn't have an emoji WTF enough for my reaction.)

Surprised you've never seen that take haha, check out the video I posted last page if you haven't

9 minutes ago, bottlegnomes said:

So funny story about something like this that happened to me and gave me a new understanding for women in this scenario. I was at a gay club downtown (long story, not really, but not relevant) and ended up talking to this guy for a while and was having a very nice conversation. Like 45 minutes into the in, I realized I thought he might have been flirting with me, reasonable enough since, again, I was a dude at a gay club. Then one of my friends showed up and was like "OMG you should give Andrew your number" and took my phone and gave it to him. I wasn't sure he was, so I didn't want to just be like "I'm straight" since then I felt like if he wasn't he'd think I assumed any friendly gay guy was flirting with me (the whole "all gays want to fuck any guy" stereotype). But on the other hand, I didn't want to keep going because I was worried it might seem like I was interested and I didn't want to lead him on. I just kinda panicked and said I had to go to the bathroom and didn't come back. Then later I ran into him again and at that point I was too drunk to really care and he was a cool guy so I ended up talking to him and saying fuck to the whole worrying about leading him on thing. Really gave me an understanding for the whole "she was leading me on" thing.

I still kinda feel like a dick about that.

Believe me, gay men definitely appreciate it when you're up front and honest about being straight. Exact same as if you were to tell a woman who's flirting you're not interested in them, you don't wanna lead 'em on, spare them the frustration

[EricaofRenais]

As a straight woman about the only guy's art in Heroes that feel like is for people who like guys fanservice besides Niles is Keaton's damaged art (I saw that and I had to have him).  Hawkeye comes across as a bad ass in design and quotes, as to seasonal ones that depends on personal likes I have not really liked the summer ones but I have liked C!Chrom and some of the other ones.  

[Ice Dragon]

24 minutes ago, Johann said:

The point is that male objectification is a different animal from female objectification, and that you can't apply the same rules to both.

Yes, I'm well aware of that. Hence why I'm asking for examples of male objectification because you did a great job of showing the standards for female objectification and male objectification are different, but you didn't do any job at all of giving an actual example of male objectification to actually compare anything against.

I don't know where to shoot if you don't tell me where the goalpost is.

 

24 minutes ago, Johann said:

Outside of FE, examples would be getting into sex games that I don't think would be appropriate for these forums. Leaning into more of the gay sexual culture (like perhaps yaoi stuff or boylesque acts) would probably get you some results if you consider that it's viewing men from the lens of men who are attracted to them.

In other words, "It's significantly harder to objectify men than women in a way," which makes entirely moot the argument that women are objectified more than men. If it is harder to objectify men in a way that is acceptable for the target audience, then it is obvious that they will be objectified less.

 

@bottlegnomes

What I'm getting from your argument is that men and women (in general) have different tastes and that because men put more weight in superficial traits, it's easier to depict women in a way that is attractive to men than it is to depict men in a way that is attractive to women.

 

One thing I've noticed over multiple arguments is the fact that one of the points I commonly hear is that women have more diverse tastes in the physical features of men. Whether or not that is true is not the point, but something I realize is that maybe the "problem" is just that the tastes of men in the physical features of women just happen to overlap a lot more on a small number of specific traits than the other way around (regardless of how diverse they actually are).

For example, while preferences in hair color, hair style, eye color, clothing style and whatnot may be vastly different from man to man, "shows some thigh" is likely a net positive for a very large proportion of men. In contrast, it's probably harder to find specific physical traits that are positively received by the same large proportion of women. Maybe I'm just making that up, but with the points I hear during these arguments, it probably isn't too far from the truth.

[bottlegnomes]

46 minutes ago, Johann said:

They don't have to scream "bedroom, now!" to be sexualized really, it's more like shoehorning sex appeal or some sort of fetishy thing (like Kagero's maid outfit) in a character that isn't sexual. Even regular Kagero is sexualized by virtue of her giant boobs with some deep cleave. Keep in mind also that none of these sexualized features play into the relationships these characters can develop in supports, etc. Off the top of my head, the Chrom/Female Robin supports in Awakening actually use sexual aspects of both characters without sexualizing either of them.

To me those three more say isn't this a cute outfit that it'd be fun to wear than pay attention to how attractive I am. Then again, I also consider Claire to be one of the more attractive females recently and would actually consider winter Tharja the least sexualized Tharja due to how much of a joke it's played up as and that the overall art style doesn't seem as "sexy" to me. Not saying she's not, but regular and especially Bridal I find much more provocative.

Out of curiosity, would you consider any of them? If you said it already and I missed it, my apologies.

 

46 minutes ago, Johann said:

Surprised you've never seen that take haha, check out the video I posted last page if you haven't

Will definitely have to. I am quite intrigued.

 

46 minutes ago, Johann said:

Believe me, gay men definitely appreciate it when you're up front and honest about being straight. Exact same as if you were to tell a woman who's flirting you're not interested in them, you don't wanna lead 'em on, spare them the frustration

I totally haven't done the exact same thing with women too. Yeah, in retrospect, I would have handled the situation much differently.

 

36 minutes ago, EricaofRenais said:

As a straight woman about the only guy's art in Heroes that feel like is for people who like guys fanservice besides Niles is Keaton's damaged art (I saw that and I had to have him).  Hawkeye comes across as a bad ass in design and quotes, as to seasonal ones that depends on personal likes I have not really liked the summer ones but I have liked C!Chrom and some of the other ones.  

Wouldn't have been my first thought, but I think can see that. He's got very tight pants to show off his butt and even sort of has the boobs-butt pose going on.

 

28 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

What I'm getting from your argument is that men and women (in general) have different tastes and that because men put more weight in superficial traits, it's easier to depict women in a way that is attractive to men than it is to depict men in a way that is attractive to women.

Bold, yes, italics, maybe, but I'm leaning towards it's not that simple. The easiest example for me to point to very large-scale male sexualization is K-Pop since a few friends of mine are super into that and so I'm fairly familiar with it. On one end, you have bands like BTS and SHINee, well dressed, nicely groomed, and do occasionally show some skin, but just flashes, or give a quick wink to maintain an overall aesthetic but show that they aren't completely innocent. On the other end, there's Big Bang. Darker clothes, shows more skin, tattoos, more rugged overall appearance, groomed but in a sort of IDGAF way, basically stereotypical bad boys. That Hugh Jackman cover would fall into the BTS/SHINee category.

If I were to grossly over-simplify, which to be fair, is kind of what sexualization is as a whole, it might be something like this:

Female characters for men: I want you to use me for sex.
Male characters for women: I can take care of you (option of conventionally, good guy, or unconventionally, bad boy).
Female characters for women: I can kick ass and take names.
Male characters for men: I can kick ass and take names.

If any of the female members want to weigh in on that, please do. I'm by no means a good judge of the whole thing.

Huge muscles on visible display falls into the I can kick ass and take names category.

Edited March 6, 2019 by bottlegnomes

[Othin]

This one is a classic, although tbf it's another example rather than establishing a pattern.

I think an important question to ask when evaluating "is this character being objectified" is to ask if the goal "look sexy to people who are attracted to this character's gender" appears to have influenced the character's appearance (particularly from a Doylist perspective) and if so, to what extent.

This is why Hawkeye doesn't hold up. A guy without a shirt typically just looks like he's trying to look tough, not sexy. If he's posing in a provocative or teasing way, that changes things. But Hawkeye's poses are consistent with a guy just trying to look tough.

On the other hand, partial shirtlessness can be another story, because that plays into the whole provocative and teasing thing. For example, I searched "crop top guys" and got this, which I'd say has some good examples of guys who look objectified:

This also holds for women, really. For example, the webcomic Platinum Black features a woman sailor who goes fully topless, as do a lot of the guys around her, and it's not depicted as sexual at all - just a thing people do on a boat in warm weather. If she was wearing a tiny bikini top rather than being fully topless, she'd be technically more covered up but appear more objectified. (Incidentally, giving Hawkeye a tiny bikini top would also make him appear objectified.) It's not just about quantity of clothes, it's about specific implications.

[Troykv]

I found a character that actually gives me a similar respond to when I see a male character despite being a female (and don't looking like an actual man).

 

Of course she is attractive, and the design would you find it's "objectify" her... but damn... those abs, that pose and that expression makes me think more in a warrior despite being half-naked.

[XRay]

1 hour ago, Johann said:

Consider this: If a random attractive woman, a stranger mind you, started acting very flirty and sexually suggestive towards you, how would you feel? More significantly, how do you think most men would feel? On the flip side, pretend you were a woman and the same thing happened, but it was an attractive man being sexually suggestive. How do you think most women would feel?

If an attractive woman who is a stranger starts acting like that, I would be totally okay. I would feel very flattered. I think most men would be the same too.

If I was a woman and a hot dude acts like that, I think I would be okay too. I am not sure about other women though.

1 hour ago, Johann said:

The male summer heroes are a bit of a special case; even though the men are exposed, it doesn't necessarily make them more attractive. I recall one gay friend preferring original Xander over Summer Xander when I showed him some of the art for the game. I know for a fact that Ana appreciates a lot more about Frederick than just his summer art, as well. Looking at everything from the perspective of "how much skin do they show" is a bad approach, because that is applying the same logic about the objectification of women and trying to apply it to men.

Then SA!Noire and HS!Hinoka wearing bikinis and bath towels do not qualify as objectification either since those outfits do not make them any more attractive.

However, since I like Camilla, anything she wears that makes her more sexually attractive would qualify as additional objectification.

That is like no different from saying 2 is an odd number because it feels like an odd number.

9 minutes ago, Johann said:

I didn't dodge the question, you just didn't understand the answer. The point is that male objectification is a different animal from female objectification, and that you can't apply the same rules to both. Flipping it around is why a lot of guys assume Hawkeye is objectified when he isn't. I honestly can't think of an example of objectified male characters in FE, with the issue being that most of them are designed by and for straight men and with the issues I listed before affecting how those designs are received (even if unintentionally). Outside of FE, examples would be getting into sex games that I don't think would be appropriate for these forums. Leaning into more of the gay sexual culture (like perhaps yaoi stuff or boylesque acts) would probably get you some results if you consider that it's viewing men from the lens of men who are attracted to them.

For gacha games, there is Touken Ranbu which is basically a husbando collector. I have not played it though.

For anime, there are Fushigi Yuugi (really old) and Akatsuki no Yona where the main female leads are surrounded by guys. There are love triangles that are a bit unrealistic in that they last way too long, since I think any guy in real life that sees a girl they like spending romantic time with another dude will move on and purge their affection pretty quickly. If that is objectifying men, I do not have a problem with it even if it is unrealistic. The shows are still great and the love triangles makes their stories interesting, even if it is a bit baffling to me why any guy would be so willingly to be plan B. No dude is just going to sit around waiting for their turn after another dude is done with a girl.

If male and female objectification is comparing apples to oranges, then that is like saying male objectification is practically never bad because no one complains about it. If a fictional work objectifies men, I honestly doubt anyone is going to give a damn, whereas fictional work objectifying women gets all the flak.

42 minutes ago, Johann said:

Yeah that's a good point. That they add sex appeal for a character that didn't need it (and was a free unit!) was pretty disappointing.

13 minutes ago, Johann said:

They don't have to scream "bedroom, now!" to be sexualized really, it's more like shoehorning sex appeal or some sort of fetishy thing (like Kagero's maid outfit) in a character that isn't sexual. Even regular Kagero is sexualized by virtue of her giant boobs with some deep cleave. Keep in mind also that none of these sexualized features play into the relationships these characters can develop in supports, etc. Off the top of my head, the Chrom/Female Robin supports in Awakening actually use sexual aspects of both characters without sexualizing either of them.

And there is nothing wrong with shoehorning sex appeal into characters that are not normally sexy. It would be like me reminding my friend that she has a boyfriend so she needs to dress more conservatively. If she wants to be a little flashy when she goes out, that is her decision. It is totally normal for Cecilia and Kagero to show off a little more cleavage.

5 minutes ago, Othin said:

This one is a classic, although tbf it's another example rather than establishing a pattern.

That art does not make me feel uncomfortable though. I have no problems with it and I think most guys do not care either. It is just a cuter looking Batman, big deal.

9 minutes ago, Othin said:

I think an important question to ask when evaluating "is this character being objectified" is to ask if the goal "look sexy to people who are attracted to this character's gender" appears to have influenced the character's appearance (particularly from a Doylist perspective) and if so, to what extent.

Even if you objectify men to the extreme, I think most people honestly do not care.

On the other hand, if women gets objectified even a little bit, like showing a bit of cleavage, it feels like a lot more people gets triggered.

[NegativeExponents-]

I think people are confused and think “more skin = more fanservice” which isn’t really true. Like Othin said, more clothes could even objectify a person more because of the implications or the way it accentuates specific parts of the body.

1 hour ago, EricaofRenais said:

As a straight woman about the only guy's art in Heroes that feel like is for people who like guys fanservice besides Niles is Keaton's damaged art (I saw that and I had to have him).  Hawkeye comes across as a bad ass in design and quotes, as to seasonal ones that depends on personal likes I have not really liked the summer ones but I have liked C!Chrom and some of the other ones.  

Just curious but what is it about Niles that people consider him one of the most fanservice-y male characters on par with Keaton?

He’s one of the most modestly dressed guys and sure his Halloween alt got the tight pants which draw some attention to the thighs but Camus has the tight pants too on top of his damaged art having a decent side view of the rear. Niles has the boob window too but it doesn’t really draw attention to the chest, barely shows anything, and most of the time it’s being covered up anyway as opposed to Keaton, Bunny!Alfonse, or Linus who not only draw attention and show more but also always have it at full display not ever being obstructed by anything.

Even outside of Heroes he’s given less promiscuous clothing compared to other characters. Just look at his warriors broken armor model:

Spoiler

This man looks like he’s going out for a jog while everyone else is in underwear or whatever it is that Corrin is wearing.

 

[Jave]

9 minutes ago, Othin said:

I think an important question to ask when evaluating "is this character being objectified" is to ask if the goal "look sexy to people who are attracted to this character's gender" appears to have influenced the character's appearance (particularly from a Doylist perspective) and if so, to what extent.

This is why Hawkeye doesn't hold up. A guy without a shirt typically just looks like he's trying to look tough, not sexy. If he's posing in a provocative or teasing way, that changes things. But Hawkeye's poses are consistent with a guy just trying to look tough.

On the other hand, partial shirtlessness can be another story, because that plays into the whole provocative and teasing thing. For example, I searched "crop top guys" and got this, which I'd say has some good examples of guys who look objectified:

This also holds for women, really. For example, the webcomic Platinum Black features a woman sailor who goes fully topless, as do a lot of the guys around her, and it's not depicted as sexual at all - just a thing people do on a boat in warm weather. If she was wearing a tiny bikini top rather than being fully topless, she'd be technically more covered up but appear more objectified. (Incidentally, giving Hawkeye a tiny bikini top would also make him appear objectified.) It's not just about quantity of clothes, it's about specific implications.

There's definitely a female audience for shirtless guys who show off abs, it's just that I don't think that audience is there in gaming or anime, but instead in literature, and by that I mean actual books. I'm looking through Amazon and there is this relatively large selection of "Sexy Romantic Novels" aimed at women and nearly all of them feature a sexy shirtless dude on the cover. Some authors include Lauren Blakely, Nicole Snow, Laurne Landish, Penelope Ryan and Jessica Hawkins. Google them if you want to see for yourself.

For the record, I'm not saying that male and female objectification are the same thing nor the whole "Men are objectified too!" thing (I genuinely don't care about that). The reason I'm mentioning this is because female audiences who find this kind of stuff sexy do indeed exist (and they're pretty big, based on book sales and Amazon reviews), it's just that most people tend to overlook it because they're looking at the wrong mediums.

[Othin]

27 minutes ago, XRay said:

That art does not make me feel uncomfortable though. I have no problems with it and I think most guys do not care either. It is just a cuter looking Batman, big deal.

Even if you objectify men to the extreme, I think most people honestly do not care.

On the other hand, if women gets objectified even a little bit, like showing a bit of cleavage, it feels like a lot more people gets triggered.

If acceptance of those kinds of male objectification was as much as you think it is, Heroes and other media would have a lot more guys in crop tops and other teasing outfits.

10 minutes ago, Jave said:

There's definitely a female audience for shirtless guys who show off abs, it's just that I don't think that audience is there in gaming or anime, but instead in literature, and by that I mean actual books. I'm looking through Amazon and there is this relatively large selection of "Sexy Romantic Novels" aimed at women and nearly all of them feature a sexy shirtless dude on the cover. Some authors include Lauren Blakely, Nicole Snow, Laurne Landish, Penelope Ryan and Jessica Hawkins. Google them if you want to see for yourself.

For the record, I'm not saying that male and female objectification are the same thing nor the whole "Men are objectified too!" thing (I genuinely don't care about that). The reason I'm mentioning this is because female audiences who find this kind of stuff sexy do indeed exist (and they're pretty big, based on book sales and Amazon reviews), it's just that most people tend to overlook it because they're looking at the wrong mediums.

This falls under what I said about poses. To use your example of Lauren Blakely:

In these, it's not just a matter of the guys being shirtless, but of the poses they're striking.

This pose is not one you'd expect to see on a romance novel cover. He looks like he's challenging someone to a fight, not inviting them to run their hands over him.

Edited March 7, 2019 by Othin

[Jave]

1 minute ago, Othin said:

In these, it's not just a matter of the guys being shirtless, but of the poses they're striking.

This pose is not one you'd expect to see on a romance novel cover. He looks like he's challenging someone to a fight, not inviting them to run their hands over him.

Wait, I'm a bit confused now. When you say "This pose" do you mean the pose in the cover you posted, or something else?

[XRay]

1 minute ago, Othin said:

If acceptance of those kinds of male objectification was as much as you think it is, Heroes and other media would have a lot more guys in crop tops and other teasing outfits.

They are acceptable. I highly doubt anyone is going to complain about too much sexy guys in Fire Emblem or any entertainment. Whether or not that is profitable is another matter though.

[Othin]

8 minutes ago, Jave said:

Wait, I'm a bit confused now. When you say "This pose" do you mean the pose in the cover you posted, or something else?

There was supposed to be Hawkeye's default pose before that last line, but the image didn't show up properly. I edited in a fixed version.

Edited March 7, 2019 by Othin

[Jave]

4 minutes ago, Othin said:

There was supposed to be Hawkeye's default pose before that last line, but the image didn't show up properly. I edited in a fixed version.

Ah, okay. That makes sense now.

For the record I do agree with you on that. I do believe the context is different.

[Othin]

7 minutes ago, XRay said:

They are acceptable. I highly doubt anyone is going to complain about too much sexy guys in Fire Emblem or any entertainment. Whether or not that is profitable is another matter though.

In that case, why haven't a bunch of guys in Heroes (say, Ike, Ephraim, Takumi, Ogma, etc.) had their shirts replaced with crop tops?

Sex sells, after all. Heroes players overall seem to have more interest in women than in men, but there are plenty of Heroes players who like men and would go for that. According to your logic, it's just free money, even if it's not as much as with women. Why leave it sitting there?

[XRay]

1 minute ago, Othin said:

Sex sells, after all. Heroes players overall seem to have more interest in women than in men, but there are plenty of Heroes players who like men and would go for that. According to your logic, it's just free money, even if it's not as much as with women. Why leave it sitting there?

I have no idea why they are leaving free money on the table. I think PA!Inigo is the only one with a crop top. Maybe female players are not buying into the summer male Special Heroes as much as they thought?