Fire Emblem Heroes General Discussion and Links

[bethany81707]

2 minutes ago, SatsumaFSoysoy said:

30 Spd can't even double Julia meng. He can prevent being doubled somewhat.

30 Speed can double, among other units, such speed demons as Alfie, Genny, Cherche, Lilina. 33 bumps him up to units as fast as Mist and Fae.

He can't double Robin, Raigh, Narcian, and non-Brave Donnel tier.

[Zeo]

@SatsumaFSoysoy @phineas81707 He's not very fast I'll admit. But 30 speed is respectable, particularly with no B skill buff.

Ok, let's pretend this is Sothe. +ATK/-RES Sothe.

39 HP / 52 ATK / 30 SPD / 32 DEF / 20 RES with no special damage vs Fliers. This is the spread of a Sothe attacking on PP and then the enemy trying to counter on enemy phase. This is with no B skill as Vantage 2 is built into Baselard and no skills. 95 wins. If he was doubling he would be OP, especially with Moonbow or QP. He only gets 15 wins on PP to start, but he's only being OHKO'ed by S!Lucina, Celica (At 100% HP), Hector and Cecilia. 

On Enemy Phase 1st round he's only being OHKO'ed by Tharja, Hana, S!Lucina, Celica, Reinhardt, Karel, Cecilia and the wonderful new Athena.

Edited June 17, 2017 by Zeo

[bethany81707]

3 minutes ago, Zeo said:

@SatsumaFSoysoy @phineas81707 He's not very fast I'll admit. But 30 speed is respectable, particularly with no A skill buff.

Ok, let's pretend this is Sothe. +ATK/-RES Sothe.

39 HP/ 52 ATK / 30 SPD / 32 DEF / 20 RES with no special damage vs Fliers. This is the spread of a Sothe attacking on PP and then the enemy trying to counter on enemy phase. This is with no B skill as Vantage 2 is built into Baselard and no skills. 99 wins. If he was doubling he would be OP, especially with Moonbow or QP. He only gets 17 wins on PP to start, but he's only being OHKO'ed by S!Lucina, Celica (At 100% HP), Hector and Cecilia. 

On Enemy Phase 1st round he's only being OHKO'ed by Tharja, S!Lucina, Celica, Reinhardt, Karel, Cecilia and the wonderful new Athena.

You still haven't answered why you'd want to put Desperation on this.

[Zeo]

3 minutes ago, phineas81707 said:

You still haven't answered why you'd want to put Desperation on this.

Initially I thought it would be a good idea for a combo, but turns out 30 speed is pretty mediocre. So I relent on Desperation.

EDIT: Also fixed it, he had 53 ATK which gave him 99 wins, 52 takes him down to 95.

Edited June 17, 2017 by Zeo

[SatsumaFSoysoy]

15 minutes ago, Zeo said:

@SatsumaFSoysoy @phineas81707 He's not very fast I'll admit. But 30 speed is respectable, particularly with no B skill buff.

Ok, let's pretend this is Sothe. +ATK/-RES Sothe.

39 HP / 52 ATK / 30 SPD / 32 DEF / 20 RES with no special damage vs Fliers. This is the spread of a Sothe attacking on PP and then the enemy trying to counter on enemy phase. This is with no B skill as Vantage 2 is built into Baselard and no skills. 95 wins. If he was doubling he would be OP, especially with Moonbow or QP. He only gets 15 wins on PP to start, but he's only being OHKO'ed by S!Lucina, Celica (At 100% HP), Hector and Cecilia. 

On Enemy Phase 1st round he's only being OHKO'ed by Tharja, Hana, S!Lucina, Celica, Reinhardt, Karel, Cecilia and the wonderful new Athena.

Eh, I don't know about this. Two major problems:

Since he requires the damaged unit to suicide on him the second round to be actually be killing, that means he nor his team can clear out threatening units on Player Phase since the damaged unit is either in the way, or can just kill a teammate that's dealing with someone else.

Since he has to 2RKO most things, he either has to initiate, which could easily leave him in range of a different enemy (since melee + ranged) like to gang up, and he's not one-shotting the second guy ever so he might die. Or, he would have to bait and then kill instead, but a baiter that doesn't immediately kill is terrible, since Wings of Memes will destroy you.

[Zeo]

22 minutes ago, SatsumaFSoysoy said:

Eh, I don't know about this. Two major problems:

Since he requires the damaged unit to suicide on him the second round to be actually be killing, that means he nor his team can clear out threatening units on Player Phase since the damaged unit is either in the way, or can just kill a teammate that's dealing with someone else.

Since he has to 2RKO most things, he either has to initiate, which could easily leave him in range of a different enemy (since melee + ranged) like to gang up, and he's not one-shotting the second guy ever so he might die. Or, he would have to bait and then kill instead, but a baiter that doesn't immediately kill is terrible, since Wings of Memes will destroy you.

He's one shotting if he procs a skill, particularly one like Draconic Aura.  But it's true he shouldn't rely on it. Matthew can get away with something like this because his dagger increases defense and resistance but Sothe wouldn't get that perk. What you're telling me is that Sothe needs to double in order to make his high STR worth it. But something like 36/35 for a dagger user is kind of much when you also have the highest MT dagger. That's also 57/40 for ATK and SPD with LnD3, and he still doesn't have a B still yet.

This is what I'm talking about with Dagger users. Dagger users lack the flexibility to fill roles other than debuffers (aside from Poison Dagger+). Brave Daggers aren't even a thing, this is probably something that would help Sothe. Perhaps he's not the best unit, but my attempt to balance him made him like all the other dagger users, mediocre. Maybe some of the other users I listed fare better?

Edited June 17, 2017 by Zeo

[SatsumaFSoysoy]

Just now, Zeo said:

He's one shotting if he procs a skill, particularly one like Draconic Aura.  But it's true he shouldn't rely on it. Matthew can get away with something like this because his dagger increases defense and resistance but Sothe wouldn't get that perk. What you're telling me is that Sothe needs to double in order to make his high STR worth it. But something like 36/35 for a dagger user is kind of much when you also have the highest MT dagger. That's also 57/40 for ATK and SPD with LnD3, and he still doesn't have a B still yet.

I'm not saying he has to double all time, I'm just saying that the gimmick you designed for him (debuff -> kill on the counter) isn't very useful (possibly detrimental) in the current meta, imo. And if people don't use this gimmick and instead do something else with him, then the design has failed.

[bethany81707]

3 minutes ago, Zeo said:

He's one shotting if he procs a skill, particularly one like Draconic Aura.  But it's true he shouldn't rely on it. Matthew can get away with something like this because his dagger increases defense and resistance but Sothe wouldn't get that perk. What you're telling me is that Sothe needs to double in order to make his high STR worth it. But something like 36/35 for a dagger user is kind of much when you also have the highest MT dagger. That's also 57/40 for ATK and SPD with LnD3, and he still doesn't have a B still yet.

The meta currently favours units that can actually kill units in one attack, or units that won't die when they get attacked and can then successfully deal plenty of damage on the counterattack.

Linde has 35/36, and a weapon of might 14 for 49/36. That's 55/42 for Life & Death 3. And she wants a different weapon.

[Zeo]

3 minutes ago, SatsumaFSoysoy said:

I'm not saying he has to double all time, I'm just saying that the gimmick you designed for him (debuff -> kill on the counter) isn't very useful (possibly detrimental) in the current meta, imo. And if people don't use this gimmick and instead do something else with him, then the design has failed.

Can't disagree with that, in fact your point made me think of why the build for Athena I was making turned out to be subpar. This game just favors OHKO nukes and Dagger users by design don't do that, they debuff so other characters can kill (except Kagero) and it's mostly pointless when units can already OHKO on their own. But I don't necessarily agree with the design fails if you do something different statement, SI itself encourages a change of design. Most vanilla builds aren't even used in the current meta.

This is also telling me that in the current meta, dagger users fail by design. So how do we fix this?

Edited June 17, 2017 by Zeo

[SatsumaFSoysoy]

Just now, Zeo said:

Can't disagree with that, in fact your point made me think of why the build for Athena I was making turned out to be subpar. This game just favors OHKO nukes and Dagger users by design don't do that, they debuff so other characters can kill (except Kagero) and it's mostly pointless when units can already OHKO on their own.

But this is also telling me that in the current meta, dagger users fail by design. So how do we fix this?

I guess Defense Tiles and the new Ploy skills play a part in pulling apart the current buff and one-shot meta, but chip damage triggering all sorts of goodies like Vantage and Wings of Memes is a big problem for Dagger users. There are some pretty solid debuffers already in the game like Jaffar and Felicia, especially if they have Wind/Watersweep. 

[Ice Dragon]

2 hours ago, phineas81707 said:

Linde has 35/36, and a weapon of might 14 for 49/36. That's 55/42 for Life & Death 3. And she wants a different weapon.

Linde does perfectly fine with Aura. There's no need to give her Blarblade at all unless you want to go on a power trip.

Also, Life and Death 3 is +5, not +6.

[bethany81707]

3 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Linde does perfectly fine with Aura. There's no need to give her Blarblade at all unless you want to go on a power trip.

Also, Life and Death 3 is +5, not +6.

Shows how I don't have it at all. The only unit close is a 3* Hana.

[Hilda]

13 hours ago, Zeo said:

Can't disagree with that, in fact your point made me think of why the build for Athena I was making turned out to be subpar. This game just favors OHKO nukes and Dagger users by design don't do that, they debuff so other characters can kill (except Kagero) and it's mostly pointless when units can already OHKO on their own. But I don't necessarily agree with the design fails if you do something different statement, SI itself encourages a change of design. Most vanilla builds aren't even used in the current meta.

This is also telling me that in the current meta, dagger users fail by design. So how do we fix this?

I think the biggest problem in the game is the fact that SPD is an offensiv and defensiv Skill at the same time (giving you the ability to double and not get doubled), which makes OHKO so prominent and possible. This by default makes characters with high Bulk but low ATK and SPD bad, so they cant be utility units. Which in return renders Debuffers (Dagger wielders) almost useless. I think the Formula for SPD checks should be revised when initiating attacks and maybe also be tied to classes.

simply make Triangle Advantage also apply to SPD. Meaning a Blue unit attacking a Green unit gets also a 20% Speed reduction on top of the 20% Atk Reduction. A Red Cavalry Unit attacking Raigh gets a 20% penalty on SPD. A Blue Cavalry had 0% Penalty on SPD but also no advantage gained form Speed, and a Green Cavalry will suffer 40% Speed Penalty.
in that Regard you would also need to change all the Brave weapons to from static -5 SPD to a -25% SPD Stat or so

In other words: get rid of OHKO

Edited June 17, 2017 by Hilda

[Kaden]

16 hours ago, Zeo said:

Sothe (FE9/10): Weapon: Baselard/13 MT: If unit's health is 50% or lower, proc Vantage. / -5 to enemy DEF and RES after combat. I could see Sothe be somewhat like Matthew albeit with a bit more attack, but with a bit less HP and more res. The Baselard would be true to form as the highest MT dagger in the game. Coupled with Vantage 2 and Sothe's high base STR,, he could be a particularly scary unit. Especially if you do something like Desperation in the B slot. He would probably have the highest strength of the dagger units, but the least speed.

Volke (FE9/10): Weapon: Peshkatz/11 MT: +4 Attack if unit initiates combat. -5 to Enemy DEF and RES after combat. Death Blow 2 is underwhelming sure, but buffing a units ATK at the same time is a pretty nice combination, particularly if Volke is danced, that's 9 additional damage. On top of that I'd give Volke the highest base speed in the game at 40. One speed above Lon Qu, in exchange he would have Hana tier defense and resistance but a high HP pool, around the 40-50s.

Baselard having 13 MT is concerning for me. With the introduction of Jaffar, legendary and personal daggers are implied to have 11 MT. Having it be higher than that should only be from something like an innate Death Blow or Defiant Attack. With the exception of Dire Thunder because it's a legendary Brave tome, all the legendary weapons share the same MT regardless of their effects; all melee legendary weapons have 16 MT and all legendary tomes and bows have 14 MT. It sucks that thieves generally have average to low attack and their weapons are also weak, but it can't be helped with the way the game is unless the developers drastically change how thieves work.

Peshkatz comes with Volke, but you can get another one apparently. Whatever, it's associated with Volke. In Radiant Dawn, it's a 1-2 range weapon. Maybe it should have an innate Close Counter and the Death Blow 2 you gave it should go to Baselard. So, Peshkatz would be an 11 MT dagger with Close Counter. Volke could join Heroes with his join base attack and speed stats which is 30 attack and 35 speed. Attacking him could be really dangerous. His other stats would have to be decided somehow.

I haven't played Radiant Dawn outside of the first chapter to check my that my copy worked, but is Baselard even associated with Sothe? Anyway, ignoring that, if you want him to have high attack and low speed for a thief, he could have something like 37 attack and 27 speed. With Baselard being a personal weapon, that'd give him 48 total attack and if he attacks, then he'd effectively have 52 attack. Stack on another Death Blow 3 as his A-slot and he'd have 58 attack. Not bad for a thief. The only weird thing is that apparently Sothe's strength cap is low, but I have no idea what that really means in relation to Radiant Dawn's stat caps and I doubt he's slow for a thief. Still, that might make it weird for him to have extremely high attack for a thief if that's the case.

Heather might make more sense as the faster thief compared to Volke -- she has a higher speed growth -- and she could bring in a new skill or dagger that has Candlelight's effect to emulate Disarm even though she doesn't start with it, but she apparently joins when the skill is available.

Edited June 17, 2017 by Kaden

[Zeo]

13 hours ago, Hilda said:

I think the biggest problem in the game is the fact that SPD is an offensiv and defensiv Skill at the same time (giving you the ability to double and not get doubled), which makes OHKO so prominent and possible. This by default makes characters with high Bulk but low ATK and SPD bad, so they cant be utility units. Which in return renders Debuffers (Dagger wielders) almost useless. I think the Formula for SPD checks should be revised when initiating attacks and maybe also be tied to classes.

simply make Triangle Advantage also apply to SPD. Meaning a Blue unit attacking a Green unit gets also a 20% Speed reduction on top of the 20% Atk Reduction. A Red Cavalry Unit attacking Raigh gets a 20% penalty on SPD. A Blue Cavalry had 0% Penalty on SPD but also no advantage gained form Speed, and a Green Cavalry will suffer 40% Speed Penalty.
in that Regard you would also need to change all the Brave weapons to from static -5 SPD to a -25% SPD Stat or so

In other words: get rid of OHKO

Seems like this idea would complicate things, would be a lot harder to calculate things on the fly factoring in speed loss in WTA/D, but I can't say I have a remedy for the issue either.

12 hours ago, Kaden said:

Baselard having 13 MT is concerning for me. With the introduction of Jaffar, legendary and personal daggers are implied to have 11 MT. Having it be higher than that should only be from something like an innate Death Blow or Defiant Attack. With the exception of Dire Thunder because it's a legendary Brave tome, all the legendary weapons share the same MT regardless of their effects; all melee legendary weapons have 16 MT and all legendary tomes and bows have 14 MT. It sucks that thieves generally have average to low attack and their weapons are also weak, but it can't be helped with the way the game is unless the developers drastically change how thieves work.

Peshkatz comes with Volke, but you can get another one apparently. Whatever, it's associated with Volke. In Radiant Dawn, it's a 1-2 range weapon. Maybe it should have an innate Close Counter and the Death Blow 2 you gave it should go to Baselard. So, Peshkatz would be an 11 MT dagger with Close Counter. Volke could join Heroes with his join base attack and speed stats which is 30 attack and 35 speed. Attacking him could be really dangerous. His other stats would have to be decided somehow.

I haven't played Radiant Dawn outside of the first chapter to check my that my copy worked, but is Baselard even associated with Sothe? Anyway, ignoring that, if you want him to have high attack and low speed for a thief, he could have something like 37 attack and 27 speed. With Baselard being a personal weapon, that'd give him 48 total attack and if he attacks, then he'd effectively have 52 attack. Stack on another Death Blow 3 as his A-slot and he'd have 58 attack. Not bad for a thief. The only weird thing is that apparently Sothe's strength cap is low, but I have no idea what that really means in relation to Radiant Dawn's stat caps and I doubt he's slow for a thief. Still, that might make it weird for him to have extremely high attack for a thief if that's the case.

Heather might make more sense as the faster thief compared to Volke -- she has a higher speed growth -- and she could bring in a new skill or dagger that has Candlelight's effect to emulate Disarm even though she doesn't start with it, but she apparently joins when the skill is available.

Deathly Dagger is technically a "legendary" weapon by the game's standards to Baselard would in fact be locked to 11 MT. That being said I actually thought of CC for Peshkatz first but with Baselard's high MT I wanted it to be on par, plus a debuffing dagger with CC seemed kinda crazy, but dagger units need the buff so I agree with the changes for both daggers, however if Baselard took a damage hit it would need to debuff like the other daggers. I only went with the high MT because Baselard is the strongest knife in the FE Universe. It's only associated with Sothe because he's the dagger user that would pop up in FEH over Volke and the Baselard is only in FE10 in the final chapters which you have to take Sothe on, so it makes sense he'd get it instead of the Kard.

Making Sothe that slow is concerning to me, the idea of Heather negating counters with her dagger is pretty nice though as a status effect. Still nothing is as appealing to me as Dancer Thief Lara. If there is a FE5 Banner with Leif, they need to make that happen.

[SatsumaFSoysoy]

When are we getting the orbs for the Legion GHB defense tile bug?

[Vaximillian]

2 minutes ago, SatsumaFSoysoy said:

When are we getting the orbs for the Legion GHB defense tile bug?

Whenever they feel like doing so?

[SatsumaFSoysoy]

Just now, Vaximillian said:

Whenever they feel like doing so?

But I want them N O W REEEEEEEEE

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

1 hour ago, SatsumaFSoysoy said:

But I want them N O W REEEEEEEEE

Monday is just a 15 hours away REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

[SatsumaFSoysoy]

1 hour ago, JSND said:

Monday is just a 15 hours away REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

I still need to get me a Katarina. I need dem orbs.

 

In other news, I got my dad to play Heroes. He's downloading 455 MB of data rn.

[KadenTheKitsune]

1 minute ago, SatsumaFSoysoy said:

I still need to get me a Katarina. I need dem orbs.

 

In other news, I got my dad to play Heroes. He's downloading 455 MB of data rn.

That's cool, I wish I could get my parents into Fire Emblem too lol. Are you going to go through everything with him, or do you think he'll get it on his own?

[SatsumaFSoysoy]

12 minutes ago, KadenTheKitsune said:

That's cool, I wish I could get my parents into Fire Emblem too lol. Are you going to go through everything with him, or do you think he'll get it on his own?

He's always been interested in trying things I do. He's a cool dad. I'll probably walk him through pulling and arena, but he'll figure out gameplay I guess.

[GuiltyLove]

1 hour ago, SatsumaFSoysoy said:

He's always been interested in trying things I do. He's a cool dad. I'll probably walk him through pulling and arena, but he'll figure out gameplay I guess.

I wonder if he's cool enough to try natto

[SatsumaFSoysoy]

3 minutes ago, GuiltyLove said:

I wonder if he's cool enough to try natto

He's tried it in Japan, hated it lol.

[GuiltyLove]

2 minutes ago, SatsumaFSoysoy said:

He's tried it in Japan, hated it lol.

Like father, like son, I suppose. Oh well!

Has  your dad played FE before?